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Dell Offers FreeDOS With New PCs
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If you didn't have to work so hard, you'd have more time to be depressed.
If you didn't have to work so hard, you'd have more time to be depressed.
Is this new? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products. We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, last year we bought a bunch of Dell PowerEdge 2650s with RedHat 9 (and then had to purchase RHEL only six months later because of that end of life bullshit...but that's another story).
Anyway, Dell has a really good installer that asks a couple of questions, then installs RedHat with all the right options for the hardware, including Dell's drivers for their gigabit ethernet card and RAID 5 config. It even included a custom hardware PNP lookup file with identifiers for all the components in the server that aren't in the standard distro.
Dell also have their management interface for linux, which does everything the windows version does.
I was quite impressed with Dell (Not so much with RedHat over that end of life thing)
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Out of curiosity, when you purchased these servers, was a windows CD included? Numerous times I have bought a "linux" server from HP or Dell, only to find out I payed for a Windows OS anyway, it just was not installed...
YMMV, of course
--rhad
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
Chuck found that US customers can purchase Dell systems with FreeDOS: Perhaps this is old news but browsing on Dell's Small Business site, I noticed that they are now offering select systems bundled with FreeDOS. From the web site: The n series features select popular models from the DimensionTM , OptiPlexTM and Dell PrecisionTM desktop lines sold without a Microsoft(R) operating system. Offered for IT professionals who want control over operating system development and installation, n series desktops are available with a copy of the FreeDOSTM open-source operating system included in the box, ready to install. Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only.
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1534
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
"Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only."
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Interesting)
Next I'll think about replacing my server! At ~300$ I can't afford not to upgrade!
CB
Re:Is this new? (Score:4, Informative)
Usually Intel (modified to use the proprietary Dell power supply)
What's the wattage of the Power Supply?
The wattage of the Dell power supplies is generally sufficient to run the Dell just fine plus a few hard drives and other upgrades. The problem is that they use proprietary power supplies. There is NO TECHNICAL REASON to do this other than to lock customers in. If you charge enough for a replacement unit, customers will probably just buy a new PC instead.
The power supplies are like ATX, and at least a few years ago used an ATX-look alike connector. They may have changed this, because plugging a standard ATX PS into Dell motherboards would let the smoke out of the PS, possibly the Dell itself.
Fun.
What kind of RAM is used? DDR Dual Channel? What brand is the RAM?
Dell usually uses major brand RAM--whatever they can get cheapest in bulk. Not an issue. The RAM generally uses conservative timings, but then, timings really don't matter for most applications beyond 1-5% performance.
What brand is the hard-drive? What is the rotational speed of the hdd? How much cache does the hdd have?
Dell often uses Seagate or, IIRC, Maxtor. Not an issue, really.
Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware.
Decent Dells (i.e. not the super cheap systems with integrated video, etc.) use pretty good hardware. The problem is that the pretty good hardware is also pretty proprietary. Some parts are interchangeable, particularly with their overpriced gaming systems, but you buy Dell for the support (on paper at least) and because they are cheap. If you are a business, you buy them because they are a major OEM and give great support if you are a big buyer. And because they are cheap.
Dells are not meant for geeks that can build their own system from parts. They are meant for the other 95% of people that want a little black box that just works, and if it doesn't, has a toll-free number to call for help.
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Furthermore, if you're depending upon Dell's warranty to save your ass when your motherboard blows its zap, I feel sorry for you. You're far better off (if you have the technical skill) to buy some high-quality, truly off-the-shelf components and put together a real PC that you can maintain yourself.
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Where I work we have a corporate support contract on the Dell desktops so we have to go through Dell to get our memory. I wanted to add an extra 512 MB of RDRAM and Dell wanted over $500 for it! You can get it on the net for half that price. The same thing for DDR. Go to Dell's site and customize a PC and add about 256MB of memory to one. They will charge you over $100 when you can get in on the net for $40 or so.
Also, pray that as a home user you never need to call Dell's tech support. Your getting routed over to India and if you don't speak Hindi, your in for a rough time.
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Funny)
If you can't use the old RAM simultaneously then just stick it in a drawer or velcro it to the interior of the case. When the machine needs servicing, put the old RAM in.
Compaq pulls that same deal. We put 1GB chips in a bunch of servers that were ordered with 128MB. Compaq didn't want to service the machines but the old RAM was in a desk drawer. Put it back and let the whiny Compaq guy work on dog slow 128MB machines.
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Now how about... (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah that's what I'd like to see. I e-mailed Dell two months ago about getting a laptop without Windows XP on it and this is what they said: (in short they said tough luck)
> Problem Description:
>
------
I tried to purchase the Inspiron 5100 Notebook online but I noticed when I selected the option to customize that I was not able to remove Windows XP from the selection. As a long time "alternative operating system user", I have no desire to pay for an Operating System that I have no intention on using.
-------
Dear Sir,
Thank you for choosing Dell Online Customer Care.
I apologize for any inconvenience this matter may have caused.
Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with your request.
Online Sales Center at 1-800-915-3355 ext 62032 or via e-mail
at:
DHS_On-Line_Order@Dell.com
Re:Is this new? (Score:4, Informative)
That said, it is entirely possible that the company you pointed to uses the same ODM as Dell, in which case it may indeed be easy to get more or less the same laptop for a lower price.
Interested parties may also look at www.powernotebooks.com and www.pctorque.com. These guys sell Eurocom and Sager (=Clevo) laptops at lower prices than many. It is a good way to get the same laptop, POSSIBLY MINUS SUPPORT, for a lower price.
i'll bite. (Score:3, Funny)
Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hmm (Score:3, Informative)
I for one (Score:2, Interesting)
FreeDOS (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:FreeDOS (Score:5, Funny)
You can operate your disc system. Duh.
Re:FreeDOS (Score:2)
Re:FreeDOS (Score:5, Informative)
Those licenses are not transferable. You can't even blow away a PC and reload it with another copy of the OS you bought with it.
Re:Good Fucking Lord (Score:3)
Yes, but are you FREE enough to say with your NAME? *NOT* as an AC?
Re:FreeDOS (Score:5, Informative)
If you read the fine print carefully, you will discover that the N series systems actually ship with no operating system installed. They include a FreeDOS media kit in the box. This way you don't have to pay any Microsoft tax on the machine. I suppose you could use the FreeDOS to test the machine before you installed the Linux distro of your choice,
Re:FreeDOS (Score:3, Informative)
Re:FreeDOS (Score:3, Insightful)
Not True. I work there (Score:4, Interesting)
FreeDOS? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you sell a computer with a software you need to support both, and supporting FreeDOS is much easier than Linux
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:5, Funny)
Now THAT is a stupid question to ask on slashdot.
Re:FreeWindows? (Score:5, Informative)
IMO, This is great (Score:5, Interesting)
Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux?
If its because of some MS rules, then I understand. If not, they should include more options.
Eather way, they are allowing an OSS OS to be bundled. GOOD LUCK TO DELL!
Element Computer (Score:5, Informative)
If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:5, Interesting)
- Harddrive Upgrade to 60GB
- Internal Optical Combo CDRW/DVD
- Memory 512MB
- Model 17" LCD
- Processor Upg. to 2.66 Ghz P4m
- Software ProductivityPak,GamePak,SolitaireAce
- Wireless None
$1,938
iMac 17" [apple.com]
512MB DDR333 - 2 DIMMs
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
17-inch flat panel LCD
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
4x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
Apple Keyboard
Apple Mouse
Apple Pro Speakers
$1,899.00
iMac is cheaper, has a dedicated graphics card, a professionally supported UNIX OS, a better processor for any sort of media, better built-in software, a 4x DVD-R, and 20GB more HD space, not to mention the better design and compatibility with all sorts of other devices. Plus options for internal bluetooth, etc.
And people say Macs are expensive?
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:3, Funny)
Try comparing the iMac to _this_, then (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional (not the default "Home Edition")
FREE TurboTax(R) Basic for Tax Year 2003
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 333MHz (2x256M)
80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
3.5 in Floppy Drive
Single Drive: 8x DVD+RW Drive
Combo: RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe (DVD+RW only)
Dell(R) Quietkey(R) Keyboard
Dell(R) 2-button scroll mouse
Productivity Pack including WordPerfect(R) and Money(R)
17 in E171FPb Flat Panel Display
128MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Graphics Card with TV-Out and DVI
Integrated 5.1 Channel Audio
Stereo Speakers
Dell Media Experience
Dell Picture Studio, Paint Shop Pro Trial, Photo Album Starter Edition
Integrated Intel(R) PRO 10/100 Ethernet
56K PCI Data Fax Modem
The cost? $1,627
What do we have here? It's a good $272 cheaper than that Mac. Even though it has an 8x DVD burner, as opposed to the Mac's 4x. Also note that the DVD writer software and everything _is_ included in the price.
Even then, the comparison is already skewed. A more exact comparison would be a 2 GHz Celeron machine with el-cheapo SDR RAM. That's still faster than the G4, but not as overkill as the P4.
And still more useful than the Mac. On the PC you can actually play games.
Also note that it involves _no_ assembling stuff on your own.
Do I need to spell it out for you? Yes, the Macs are overpriced. Way overpriced. And for a lot of us, just plain useless either way.
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:4, Informative)
No, maybe not. Ya see, Windows Movie Maker is the 'Notepad' of movie editing on Windows.
But you could use Magix video deLuxe PLUS [magix.net], Magix Movie Edit Pro 2004 [magix.net], Sony Screenblast Movie Studio [sonypictures.com], Ulead Videostudio [ulead.com], Pinnacle Studio [pinnaclesys.com], Roxio VideoWave Movie Creator [roxio.com]
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:3, Interesting)
Plus, there's something about being able to upgrade that PC as needed, instead of being locked into Apple's (or Dell's) lame "throw away the whole computer and buy a new one" scheme.
E.g., do I need new hard drives? Not really.
Do I need to buy a new OS _minor_ version every year, like you Mac fans seem happy to? Hell, no. This here Windows 2000 (full version, and yes, paid for) still runs everything perfectly. Maybe because unlike Apple, Microsoft can stick to an API, instead of blundering through "oh, this year we're using a completely different kernel" experiments.
Do I need a new LCD monitor with each PC, like you iMac lemmings get? Nope.
So putting that all together, it's cost me about 1000$ to swap a new mobo, an A64 3200+ and a Radeon 9800 XT into the existing computer. Even if I'm to add the price of the already bought 16ms LCD monitor (which is light-years ahead of the lame cheap-ass panel in the iMac), I still end up under 1500$.
And unlike the Mac, I can actually run games on this machine.
So what do we have? In one corner, the fastest (non-overclocked) gaming PC money can buy. In the other corner a lame iMac which is useless for anything except web browsing. No, thanks. I'll stick to my PC, and save a bunch of money in the process.
Haven't had a dead CPU _ever_, and surprisingly enough the memory was true to the specs printed on it. (E.g., surprisingly enough, if you were a cheapskate and bought CL3 RAM, don't expect it to run at CL2.) Also surprisingly enough, the machine booted on the first try. Go figure.
So, please... just because you're the non-technical kind who's terminally affraid to install a CPU, doesn't mean everyone else is in the same bracket. You stick to your Macs, I'll stick to my PC.
Why not Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
In one word, "Support"
It's a lot easier (i.e. cheaper) to support FreeDOS than linux. You are still free to wipe the drive and install your OS of choice.
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:4, Informative)
Their website seems pretty light on the details about linux but this page [dell.com] tells you what systems it is available for. Then again, anyone who actually wants linux on a desktop machine probably knows how to obtain and install their favorite distro anyway.
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:2, Informative)
Wal-Mart has had a cheap workstation for sometime that you can purchase without an OS, or get it with Lindows (I think). They aren't available in stores, only on their website, but its good that there are options out there.
It'd make a great little server to play with
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:4, Interesting)
The new desktops appear to be a slick interpretation of Microsoft's new licensing terms and a way to navigate customer demand for PCs without an OS installed. The Microsoft licensing terms, which were put in place on Aug. 1, specify that PC makers must ship PCs with an operating system. The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:5, Insightful)
N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.
Which means they are technically charging you MORE for the computer, since they do not incur the cost of the Microsoft license. Or you can look at is as: "We charge you the same for FreeDOS as we do for Windows", which is kinda expensive for FreeDOS (I have installed it, its a mediocre DOS 3.3 clone by their own admission).
This does mean bigger profits for Dell, but it doesn't represent a better value for customers.
Why not Knoppix? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why not Knoppix? (Score:4, Informative)
I just downloaded featherlinux (70mb i think) to test it. Its supposed to be the best lightweight utility bootable CD version.
feel like losing data? (Score:2)
Inquiring minds want to know (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Inquiring minds want to know (Score:3, Insightful)
This is news? (Score:5, Informative)
FreeDos is a cool project. You should check it out if you haven't yet.
A wake up call for Microsoft? (Score:5, Informative)
justice dept. (Score:4, Interesting)
What is the point? (Score:4, Insightful)
Avoids double dipping (Score:5, Insightful)
Many businesses already have licenses for all the software that they run--either a seat for every user or a site-wide license. For such businesses, a PC that comes with Windows is just wasted money. It would make sense to try to wrestle a discount from Microsoft when such a situation occurs, but monopolies are not often sympathetic to such things.
Re:Avoids double dipping (Score:4, Insightful)
off topic, but the 2 minute rule sucks.
Re:Avoids double dipping (Score:3, Funny)
No problem, these customers will just be upgrading from DOS
Re:What is the point? (Score:2, Insightful)
Wee! (Score:5, Funny)
More precisely (Score:5, Informative)
According to their news entries, this is new for US customers, but it's been available to Canadians for a while.
They will eventually run MSWindows (Score:2)
I've seen that: a company bougth 50 computers that came with XP and installed W2K on it
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows (Score:2)
When Dell stops this, and... (Score:5, Informative)
When Dell stops this [cypherpunks.ca] bullshit, and offers a windows delete credit across their entire product line (without invalidating warranties), then you will finally know that you aren't paying a full microsoft tax when you order a computer with Linux or some other operating system.
Re:When Dell stops this, and... (Score:2)
Uh (Score:4, Insightful)
Then it occured to me that obviously Dell is still just as scared of Microsoft as it was two years ago when they attempted to ship Linux. Microsoft doesn't care if Dell ships with an OS that isn't a threat really. They just don't want Linux in the mainstream.
Shame on you Dell!
Where's the beef? (Score:2)
I have no clue which computer is a "N-series"- all I see are dimensions, precisions, optiplexes, and the like.
And, for some reason, whenever I clicked on a PC's "Customize it" button, it just refeshed the page. Happened on Moz 1.5 and IE 6.
Yeah, I believe it, but it'd be cool to see it, too
Required to have an OS (Score:2, Informative)
Are they doing this for the pirateers out there? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Are they doing this for the pirateers... NO... (Score:3, Informative)
Remember the *double Microsoft Tax*? A large company pays to purchase a system (which has Windows), then they pay again for their special corporate image of windows? If they buy a system like this one, then they've got a single Microsoft tax. It makes sense.
And it makes sense for people who run alternative OSs, of want more of a kiosk, or perhaps have a MAME box they want to get going. For $320 with free shipping, that's one hell of a MAME box.
BTW: I found the URL given in the story a bad choice. I found this one [dell.com] instead.
All DOS apps will be belonging to... VisualBasic! (Score:2)
FreeDOS. (Score:3, Funny)
Back in the real world, FreeDOS is about as useful as a deep-freeze in the Arctic circle. Are people supposed to learn to install an OS on new computers? What is this, 1987?
Gotta love that paragraph (Score:2)
'nuff said.
Sweet (Score:2)
2. Install warez windows xp
3. Profit!!
That's the whole point of this promotion. So people can use their wared copies of windows. I doubt it will help linux much.
What's it gonna take to get a Knoppix CD included? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing for grandma to get messed up with either. Tech support is dead simple.."hello, Mrs. Smigh? Does the computer boot from the CD?...you're OK"
This wouldn't even require formatting the drive....
FreeDOS is a cop-out...... If it's a "cost" issue on Dell's part...I could burn CD's at my house! I'm in for a stack a week.
Let's put together a special Dell CD distro. and ask Dell to distribute it with their OS-less systems. It could show real "good faith" towards a heartless company. It could also suck them into the SCO fun!
pool on when Darl McBride claims FreeDOS IP... (Score:5, Funny)
I would expect Darl will be on the scene shortly, perhaps within a week, claiming that FreeDOS is also owned by SCO.
I will enter my official guess as February 2, "Groundhog Day". If Darl appears and claims more IP, then six more weeks of IP winter will be upon us.
Price difference (Score:5, Informative)
- Dell Dimension 2400N: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, FreeDOS: $369
- Dell Dimension 2400: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, Windows XP: $599
The arithmetic is left as an exercise for the reader.Re:Price difference (Score:4, Insightful)
If you take into consideration the rebate, and the fact that dell charges tax on the 2400N (because it can only be purchased at dell business versus dell home for the 2400), you are actually paying the exact same price for the 2 configurations.
Don't be mistaken, you are still paying the Microsoft tax.
Re:Price difference (Score:4, Insightful)
I bet a large number of buyers will run MS on them (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess is that a decent number of these will be bought by companies, schools, or other organizations that already have some sort of Microsoft site license. They will still pay microsoft, but won't have to pay for a machine with an OS, then pay more to install something over it.
The college I work at has an MS site license through a college consortium. We would buy PC's with one version of Windows then overwrite them with images of another, usually because we weren't ready to deploy whatever the latest and greatest OS yet. I'm sure a lot of businesses have site licenses for NT or 2k and aren't ready yet to deploy XP, and don't want to have to pay for XP licenses when XP would be wiped off 5 minutes after opening the box.
BIOS FLASHING! (Score:3, Informative)
Motherboard BIOS. Updates? DOS floppy or DOS onboard generally required. Not always, especially these days, but geeze. FreeDOS, I assume, will work just as well as DOS for this purpose.
I'm a Mac user and I know this! What's your excuse?
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So... (Score:2, Informative)
This doesn't explain why you'd buy it with a brand new Dell though.
Re:Yes but... (Score:2)
Actually, I'm half tempted to do just that. (Well, I'm unlikely to buy one from Dell, but several times recently I've considered putting together a DOS system for the express purpose of playing games.) DOSemu, the last few times I've tried it, has always been difficult to get working, and never works well.
My biggest issue is finding space for another computer. My house is crowded enough as it is.
Re:Yes but... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Yes but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not much, but it doesn't really matter. Dell is sending a message to Redmond, wait a couple weeks until they get a new deal with M$ ... everyone is doing this very same little trick these days, and I guess freedos is easier to support than linux for Dell while the negotiations take place ...
Re:Yes but... (Score:4, Insightful)
but litigation proof, should the FUD of SCO prevail
if I buy the system with a linux cd in the box and wind up owing licensing fees to SCO, I can complain to dell..
if I buy the box with freedos, and load linux, then dell has 'clean hands'
Re:Yes but... (Score:5, Interesting)
So you can put on whatever OS you want and Dell doesn't owe you software support. Obviously, this deal is designed to appeal to geeks who want cheap systems.
WinModem (Score:2)
Most likely doesn't even support the WinModem this POS box more than likely comes equiped with. ;-)
Re:Yes but... (Score:3, Interesting)
There is a lot of old DOS software that is still in use by people with old hardware that don't want to upgrade. Such as small businesses that can't afford consultants that still use the same Point of Sale equipment they bought 10 years ago. They can't afford an IT guy, let alone one that can set up a Linux system for them, and a new system would cost way too much. If their computer dies and they don't have the DOS disk anymore they can use FreeDos to install on another computer, or buy a Dell preloaded with it.
Another example are non-profit organizations such as churches, that also don't have money to spend on technology consultants and still try to use the software they already have. In fact I just spent Saturday morning at my church working on a DOS machine. They have a geneology library that is open to the community to come and do family history with, and they use old DOS software for it. Someone donated a 486 to them and I set it up so they could use their existing software. That one already had DOS, but if they get a computer in without an OS, or if I have to replace a harddrive, FreeDos will be the first thing I try.
Also on the freedos site they mention that freedos is used a lot by hardware manufactuers who need to make a bootable floppy do things like flash rom for bios updates and such.
Re:Linux (Score:3, Troll)
Maybe they figured that Linux folks could install Linux themselves and this way they aren't putting themselves at risk in case SCO wins their lawsuit. (Which is a very small risk, but maybe Dell doesn't see it that way.)
Plus, Microsoft *really* hates Linux. I still have some friends who work there ( I used to work there at one time), and they all say that the culture within the company is just an absolute hatred for Linux.
Because they're really shipping it with no OS. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It feels wrong. (Score:4, Interesting)
I prefer to think of it as getting a happymeal toy that lets you record your own messages, rather than just repeating "Can we go to McDonalds", "I love Ronald", and "Big Macs don't make you fat", over and over and over.
Realistically, you can do two things with one of these (and no, I don't include "install FreeDOS" as a viable option)... You can install Linux on it, or you can install the version of Windows you bought for your old machine (which, assuming you remove it from your old machine, you won't violate any likely-to-stand-in-court aspects of the Windows EULA).
Re:You guys that question the OS keep forgetting (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, I'd bet that a lot of companies want to purchase all of their licenses through their MS licensing program - I believe my company specifically requires that new computers not ship with Office so that they can use a site-license which "simplifies license management and reduces TCO" or something like that. If they site-license Windows, they buy a (cheap?) license and get upgrades for the life of the license (I think... I stopped keeping up with the MS licenses a while ago)
The only reason FreeDOS is on there is because they can't ship hardware without an OS.