Posted
by
timothy
from the on-again-off-again-baker's-man dept.
Zed writes "Showing a distancing of itself from Microsoft, Dell now offers businesses a chance to purchase computers without a Windows operating system. The N-Series computers start at $319 from Dell's website and ship with a FreeDOS CD in the box."
This discussion has been archived.
No new comments can be posted.
And were are not without/. saying Dell is trying to "distancing of itself from Microsoft". Myabe Dell is only one small step away from throwing down the windows flag and offering only Linux as an option? No, I don't think that is it. I think someone is just spouting off at the mouth. Zealots are blinded by the way they want things to be, not the way things are.
While I cannot stand MS, I'd have to agree here. Dell is so far up Billy boys butt, it isn't even funny. I think Dell just offers a few poorly packaged PC's without MS software in the same manner that a teen would rebell against his/her parents.
I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products. We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.
We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.
Actually, last year we bought a bunch of Dell PowerEdge 2650s with RedHat 9 (and then had to purchase RHEL only six months later because of that end of life bullshit...but that's another story).
Anyway, Dell has a really good installer that asks a couple of questions, then installs RedHat with all the right options for the hardware, including Dell's drivers for their gigabit ethernet card and RAID 5 config. It even included a custom hardware PNP lookup file with identifiers for all the components in the server that aren't in the standard distro.
Dell also have their management interface for linux, which does everything the windows version does.
I was quite impressed with Dell (Not so much with RedHat over that end of life thing)
"I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products."
Out of curiosity, when you purchased these servers, was a windows CD included? Numerous times I have bought a "linux" server from HP or Dell, only to find out I payed for a Windows OS anyway, it just was not installed...
Chuck found that US customers can purchase Dell systems with FreeDOS: Perhaps this is old news but browsing on Dell's Small Business site, I noticed that they are now offering select systems bundled with FreeDOS. From the web site: The n series features select popular models from the DimensionTM , OptiPlexTM and Dell PrecisionTM desktop lines sold without a Microsoft(R) operating system. Offered for IT professionals who want control over operating system development and installation, n series desktops are available with a copy of the FreeDOSTM open-source operating system included in the box, ready to install.
Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only.
"Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only."
I just found out about this a few weeks ago, it changed my plans of rebuilding my current box; for 319$ (or a little more) I can have a ~2.6Gig box with those nice/quiet Dell cases. The fact that I don't have to buy MS on it turned me around, it'll be our new main workstation running Gentoo Linux.
Next I'll think about replacing my server! At ~300$ I can't afford not to upgrade!
What brand of motherboard do they put in these things? Usually Intel (modified to use the proprietary Dell power supply)
What's the wattage of the Power Supply? The wattage of the Dell power supplies is generally sufficient to run the Dell just fine plus a few hard drives and other upgrades. The problem is that they use proprietary power supplies. There is NO TECHNICAL REASON to do this other than to lock customers in. If you charge enough for a replacement unit, customers will probably just buy a new PC instead. The power supplies are like ATX, and at least a few years ago used an ATX-look alike connector. They may have changed this, because plugging a standard ATX PS into Dell motherboards would let the smoke out of the PS, possibly the Dell itself. Fun.
What kind of RAM is used? DDR Dual Channel? What brand is the RAM? Dell usually uses major brand RAM--whatever they can get cheapest in bulk. Not an issue. The RAM generally uses conservative timings, but then, timings really don't matter for most applications beyond 1-5% performance.
What brand is the hard-drive? What is the rotational speed of the hdd? How much cache does the hdd have? Dell often uses Seagate or, IIRC, Maxtor. Not an issue, really.
Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware. Decent Dells (i.e. not the super cheap systems with integrated video, etc.) use pretty good hardware. The problem is that the pretty good hardware is also pretty proprietary. Some parts are interchangeable, particularly with their overpriced gaming systems, but you buy Dell for the support (on paper at least) and because they are cheap. If you are a business, you buy them because they are a major OEM and give great support if you are a big buyer. And because they are cheap.
Dells are not meant for geeks that can build their own system from parts. They are meant for the other 95% of people that want a little black box that just works, and if it doesn't, has a toll-free number to call for help.
No, I'm afraid that the original poster was the intelligent one. Obviously, "as far as you know" extends only to the limits of your olfactory appendage. My company used to use custom-built rack-mount equipment for the industrial data acquisition systems we develop, but now we've begun buying off-the-shelf HP/Compaqs, Dells, and others. And while the quality is better than the old Packard Bells, they do use thoroughly oddball, non-standard, user-lock-in components. That's the name of the game. Where you
I don't know if Dell does it for thier home PC's, howver the do use some non-standard crap on thier workstations. I have 3 Dell Optiplex PC's and 1 Precision in my office. The power supply went on one of the Optiplexes and I wanted to get it back up fast. I ran down to CompUSA to expense a power supply and brought the old one. I could not find any power supply to fit. It had to be ordered from Dell. Also, the Precision I have uses some crappy duagher board which again, prevents me from using most stan
Where I work we have a corporate support contract on the Dell desktops so we have to go through Dell to get our memory. I wanted to add an extra 512 MB of RDRAM and Dell wanted over $500 for it!
If you can't use the old RAM simultaneously then just stick it in a drawer or velcro it to the interior of the case. When the machine needs servicing, put the old RAM in.
Compaq pulls that same deal. We put 1GB chips in a bunch of servers that were ordered with 128MB. Compaq didn't want to service the machines but the old RAM was in a desk drawer. Put it back and let the whiny Compaq guy work on dog slow 128MB machines.
Perhaps if you (and whoever gave you that "informative" mod point) would google for "dell non-standard atx" you'd realise that the proprietary problem is far from gone.
Yeah that's what I'd like to see. I e-mailed Dell two months ago about getting a laptop without Windows XP on it and this is what they said: (in short they said tough luck)
> Problem Description: > ------ I tried to purchase the Inspiron 5100 Notebook online but I noticed when I selected the option to customize that I was not able to remove Windows XP from the selection. As a long time "alternative operating system user", I have no desire to pay for an Operating System that I have no intention on using. -------
Dear Sir,
Thank you for choosing Dell Online Customer Care.
I apologize for any inconvenience this matter may have caused.
Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with your request.
Online Sales Center at 1-800-915-3355 ext 62032 or via e-mail at:
"Dell clones" do not exist because Dell does not make their own laptops. All PC vendors except IBM resell laptops made by Clevo, Arima, or some other Taiwanese ODM.
That said, it is entirely possible that the company you pointed to uses the same ODM as Dell, in which case it may indeed be easy to get more or less the same laptop for a lower price.
Interested parties may also look at www.powernotebooks.com and www.pctorque.com. These guys sell Eurocom and Sager (=Clevo) laptops at lower prices than many. It is a good way to get the same laptop, POSSIBLY MINUS SUPPORT, for a lower price.
DOS, and the 8086, are fully 16-bit in design and operation. The only thing 8-bit about them is the 8088's peripheral bus. The decision to use the 8088 rather than the 8086 in the IBM PC was made in order to cut costs for peripheral manufacturers.
If you read the fine print carefully, you will discover that the N series systems actually ship with no operating system installed. They include a FreeDOS media kit in the box. This way you don't have to pay any Microsoft tax on the machine. I suppose you could use the FreeDOS to test the machine before you installed the Linux distro of your choice,
The Microsoft tax appears to be $109. The cheapest stripped down Dimension 2400 I could build was $428. The Windows version upgrade license is $99. Personally, if I WANTED Windows pre-installed, I'd prefer to be charged $200 for a full copy non-vendor-locked copy, thankyouverymuch.
What will actually happen is the vast majority of buyers will install pirated copies of Windows. In fact, Dell probably assumes that will happen, because there aren't that many people who want to run Linux on cheap desktops, who would actually buy prebuilt machines, but there are many more who would love to save money on software they can easily download or "borrow" for free.
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Tuesday January 27, 2004 @12:12AM (#8097057)
most customers who buy n-series are buying because they are some kind of retail chain, like hollywood video for example, that uses a text based dos terminal or some such interface that is not windows. They usually buy these boxes by the hundreds, and getting them w/o an OS has nothing to do with Dell distancing itself from microsoft. the only reason freedos is there is so they comply with their agreement with microsoft not to ship a system without an OS. it doesn't have to ship with a microsoft OS, just some OS. posting AC because I work at dell
The idea is that it is "Free", and probably doesn't violate some obscure Agreement Microsoft made Dell agree to, to not sell Linux or such, to be able to sell Windows at all.
Another probably answer of why they don't, sell with Linux but with FreeDOS is that they need to offer little support or none at all. If you sell a computer with a software you need to support both, and supporting FreeDOS is much easier than Linux
Or, more precisely, it's free and doesn't violate the agreement Dell made (and all other MS OEM's) to not ship a PC without an operating system. Microsoft made this agreement under the assumption that if a PC was shipped without an OEM OS the user would install a pirated, or non-licensed, version of Windows on it.
ReactOS (formerly FreeWin95, a project to create a Windows 95 clone) is a project to create a Windows 2000 clone. It's at version 0.2 (just a couple of days ago, and I thought they hadn't made it to 0.1.6 yet). It'll have Wine in there to actually get decent Win32 support. BTW, the rosapps all run great on Win2K/XP, but they sucked ass on 0.1.1 when I tried it, which is good, seeing that they're coding against Win2K, and not ROS.
Its good to see at least one PC Retailer distancing itself from Microsoft. I thought that I read somewhere that Microsoft will not allow you to distrubute windows if you distrubute another non-microsoft OS as an option. Maybe it was just Linux. That connects with my second question: Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux? If its because of some MS rules, then I understand. If not, they should include more options.
Eather way, they are allowing an OSS OS to be bundled. GOOD LUCK TO DELL!
They're not exactly Dell (referring to the size, not the quality), but Element Computer [elementcomputer.com] has a strict no-Microsoft policy to avoid paying expensive licensing fees to Microsoft. All the computers they sell run Lycoris Desktop/LX (a Linux distribution). They've got some pretty nice computers for the price... now if only I wasn't so cheap...
iMac 17" [apple.com]
512MB DDR333 - 2 DIMMs
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
17-inch flat panel LCD
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
4x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
Apple Keyboard
Apple Mouse
Apple Pro Speakers $1,899.00
iMac is cheaper, has a dedicated graphics card, a professionally supported UNIX OS, a better processor for any sort of media, better built-in software, a 4x DVD-R, and 20GB more HD space, not to mention the better design and compatibility with all sorts of other devices. Plus options for internal bluetooth, etc.
Wow, at those prices it's surprising that Element Computers (manufacturer of the ubiquitous Plutonium 1000 computer) can maintain their dominant position in the computer market.
Actually, no. I haven't stolen a single piece of software on my computer, and it's still cheaper than those macs.
Plus, there's something about being able to upgrade that PC as needed, instead of being locked into Apple's (or Dell's) lame "throw away the whole computer and buy a new one" scheme.
E.g., do I need new hard drives? Not really.
Do I need to buy a new OS _minor_ version every year, like you Mac fans seem happy to? Hell, no. This here Windows 2000 (full version, and yes, paid for) still runs every
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Monday January 26, 2004 @08:55PM (#8095674)
I think the answer may be even simpler than that.
In one word, "Support"
It's a lot easier (i.e. cheaper) to support FreeDOS than linux. You are still free to wipe the drive and install your OS of choice....I'm pretty sure that's what they expect you to do anyway....but this way, Dell doesn't get stuck supporting anything more complicated than FreeDOS on it's low end PC's.
Supposedly, you can get linux pre-installed. My assumption is that it will cost extra since it is Redhat Enterprise WS.
Their website seems pretty light on the details about linux but this page [dell.com] tells you what systems it is available for.
Then again, anyone who actually wants linux on a desktop machine probably knows how to obtain and install their favorite distro anyway.
Because FreeDos requires zero setup, configuration, or implied promise of driver support. It would be very unlikely that someone could come up with a support call resulting from shipping with FreeDos but very likely that one might result with the inclusion of a Linux distro. There isn't any margin in a $300 PC for support.
Wal-Mart has had a cheap workstation for sometime that you can purchase without an OS, or get it with Lindows (I think). They aren't available in stores, only on their website, but its good that there are options out there.
The real reason, as quoted from a CNet
article [com.com] on Aug 13, 2002:
The new desktops appear to be a slick interpretation of Microsoft's new licensing terms and a way to navigate customer demand for PCs without an OS installed. The Microsoft licensing terms, which were put in place on Aug. 1, specify that PC makers must ship PCs with an operating system. The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.
Someone give him a point for the good, relevent article. One quote did bother me tho...
N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.
Which means they are technically charging you MORE for the computer, since they do not incur the cost of the Microsoft license. Or you can look at is as: "We charge you the same for FreeDOS as we do for Windows", which is kinda expensive for FreeDOS (I have installed it, its a mediocre DOS 3.3 clone by their own admission).
This does mean bigger profits for Dell, but it doesn't represent a better value for customers.
I was thinking the exact same thing. I have been getting distro happy the last few months, trying several, and I have personally burned and given out several Knoppix CDs, including mailing them to relatives. Its the best for trying Linux, without having to install anything. I have used it a more than a few times to recover data, check disks, copy data, etc. from win9x disks. Wanting to find out how to modify and reburn it, to run it more in 'expert' mode rather than desktop mode, but loving the completeness of it.
I just downloaded featherlinux (70mb i think) to test it. Its supposed to be the best lightweight utility bootable CD version.
$399, after a $100 mail in rebate. Give me a fuckin break. I am so damn sick of seeing "after a mail-in rebate" everywhere. It's at the point where I choose not to do business with companies that pull that BS.
I know this isn't exactly new info, but if you look at freedos.org [freedos.org] you will see that they have a news post about it. It has been available for a while now, but only in Canada. The news is that it is for US also now.
FreeDos is a cool project. You should check it out if you haven't yet.
Since Dell has half the market cap [yahoo.com] of IBM [yahoo.com]. which makes it a sizable company in its own right, Microsoft (granted, which still has a larger market cap than both combined [yahoo.com]) should realise that two of the biggest computer makers are trying to distance themselves. If they weren't already afraid of the free movement (whether it be Linux or FreeDOS!) they should be paying a lot more attention very soon!
While it's nice to see that there is an option, this seems like an empty gesture. Not to knock the FreeDOS project, kudos to you, there are SO many better offerings out there that could be packaged. What are businesses or home users going to do with FreeDOS? If anything this comes across like a message that says, "Here's your other choice, it's not really an option at all, is it?"
I believe the point has been mentioned before in similar threads, but it bears repeating here.
Many businesses already have licenses for all the software that they run--either a seat for every user or a site-wide license. For such businesses, a PC that comes with Windows is just wasted money. It would make sense to try to wrestle a discount from Microsoft when such a situation occurs, but monopolies are not often sympathetic to such things.
The point is that you don't tack $189 worth of MS tax onto the price of your box when you're just going to format and install [insert favorite x86 compatible OS here].
I think that most of that computers will run MSWindows by companies that already have a windows license for their current computers and plan to trow their computers away. I've seen that: a company bougth 50 computers that came with XP and installed W2K on it
by Anonymous Coward writes:
on Monday January 26, 2004 @08:46PM (#8095570)
When Dell stops this [cypherpunks.ca] bullshit, and offers a windows delete credit across their entire product line (without invalidating warranties), then you will finally know that you aren't paying a full microsoft tax when you order a computer with Linux or some other operating system.
That [cypherpunks.ca] "bullshit" link you posted contains a really interesting story from a few months ago called "Dude, you're getting screwed" about how Dell screws over the customer wrt license agreements and has no ability or understanding of what they are even asking their customers to agree to. Take 5 minutes and read it.
When I first read this article, I thought to myself "What use is FreeDOS to a current business user? Is this a flashback to 10 years ago, when DOS was still useful?"
Then it occured to me that obviously Dell is still just as scared of Microsoft as it was two years ago when they attempted to ship Linux. Microsoft doesn't care if Dell ships with an OS that isn't a threat really. They just don't want Linux in the mainstream.
Read their own words. "Ideal for companies with proprietary software images"
Remember the *double Microsoft Tax*? A large company pays to purchase a system (which has Windows), then they pay again for their special corporate image of windows? If they buy a system like this one, then they've got a single Microsoft tax. It makes sense.
And it makes sense for people who run alternative OSs, of want more of a kiosk, or perhaps have a MAME box they want to get going. For $320 with free shipping, that's one hell
Dell *is not* distancing themselves from MS, just doing what all OEMs should, offing a wide variety of solutions. And really, FreeDOS? How is this huge ore even measurable? Are big companies still buying DOS machines? Not for long, because these same companies will soon migrate their old DOS apps to... VisualBasic (joke, sort of...)!
FreeDOS! Great! Now I can run Telix 3.15 on my new 7 Flabblehertz PC!
Back in the real world, FreeDOS is about as useful as a deep-freeze in the Arctic circle. Are people supposed to learn to install an OS on new computers? What is this, 1987?
``DellTM DimensionTM 2400 n series1 desktops offer affordable, everyday small business computing power. Extra economical because they come without a Microsoft(R) operating system; a copy of FreeDOSTM open-source operating system is included in the box, ready to install.''
I mean the choice is simple... This one CD has almost everything an average $400.00 computer purchaser would want. The 1 disk distro. has it all ready in "start from scratch" wrapper.
Nothing for grandma to get messed up with either. Tech support is dead simple.."hello, Mrs. Smigh? Does the computer boot from the CD?...you're OK"
This wouldn't even require formatting the drive....
FreeDOS is a cop-out...... If it's a "cost" issue on Dell's part...I could burn CD's at my house! I'm in for a stack a week.
Let's put together a special Dell CD distro. and ask Dell to distribute it with their OS-less systems. It could show real "good faith" towards a heartless company. It could also suck them into the SCO fun!
Dell's offering a $200 rebate on the comes-with-Windows model at the moment, but if you set that aside, roughtly equivalent sample configurations are priced as follows:
Why should that $200 rebate be set aside in your comparison? Anyone who frequents the bargains websites knows that Dell always has these types of promotions for their windows boxes.
If you take into consideration the rebate, and the fact that dell charges tax on the 2400N (because it can only be purchased at dell business versus dell home for the 2400), you are actually paying the exact same price for the 2 configurations.
Don't be mistaken, you are still paying the Microsoft tax.
He knows that. That is why if you subtract $200 rebate from $599 you get $399. With the 2400N costing $369 and the Microsoft Dell costing $399, the Microsoft tax is $399 - $369 = $30. This is how I read it.
My guess is that a decent number of these will be bought by companies, schools, or other organizations that already have some sort of Microsoft site license. They will still pay microsoft, but won't have to pay for a machine with an OS, then pay more to install something over it.
The college I work at has an MS site license through a college consortium. We would buy PC's with one version of Windows then overwrite them with images of another, usually because we weren't ready to deploy whatever the latest and greatest OS yet. I'm sure a lot of businesses have site licenses for NT or 2k and aren't ready yet to deploy XP, and don't want to have to pay for XP licenses when XP would be wiped off 5 minutes after opening the box.
For all you froods who are all OMFGWTF WHAT IS THE POINT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!1, well... that's it.
Motherboard BIOS. Updates? DOS floppy or DOS onboard generally required. Not always, especially these days, but geeze. FreeDOS, I assume, will work just as well as DOS for this purpose.
I'm a Mac user and I know this! What's your excuse?;-D
I think they are trying to avoid parts of their OEM agreement with Microsoft that bars them from shipping PCs without and OS, and FreeDOS is more neutral than picking a linux distro to ship with it.
Unless you're buying the value PC for paying abandonware or really old PC games that you own,
Actually, I'm half tempted to do just that. (Well, I'm unlikely to buy one from Dell, but several times recently I've considered putting together a DOS system for the express purpose of playing games.) DOSemu, the last few times I've tried it, has always been difficult to get working, and never works well.
My biggest issue is finding space for another computer. My house is crowded enough as it is.
Not much, but it doesn't really matter. Dell is sending a message to Redmond, wait a couple weeks until they get a new deal with M$... everyone is doing this very same little trick these days, and I guess freedos is easier to support than linux for Dell while the negotiations take place...
I think the idea is so you don't have to pay the "Microsoft Tax". They're not putting Linux on because they're not prepared to support it.
So you can put on whatever OS you want and Dell doesn't owe you software support. Obviously, this deal is designed to appeal to geeks who want cheap systems.
That is a question that a lot of people are going to ask. The answer is, if you are asking that question then it is obviously not for you, but belive it or not there is acually a lot of uses for it, it's just a niche market that isn't going to be for the masses. It definatly is a great project though.
There is a lot of old DOS software that is still in use by people with old hardware that don't want to upgrade. Such as small businesses that can't afford consultants that still use the same Point of Sale equip
I think he means "as opposed to FreeDOS which no one's heard of".
Maybe they figured that Linux folks could install Linux themselves and this way they aren't putting themselves at risk in case SCO wins their lawsuit. (Which is a very small risk, but maybe Dell doesn't see it that way.)
Plus, Microsoft *really* hates Linux. I still have some friends who work there ( I used to work there at one time), and they all say that the culture within the company is just an absolute hatred for Linux.
It's intended for Businesses who have a volume licence agreement for x number of Windows Installs. This let's them buy new workstations without having to pay for a Windows Licence they already have.
Its like having mcDonalds downgrade their
free toy from a fun windup to to just a damn
doll that doesn't do shit.
I prefer to think of it as getting a happymeal
toy that lets you record your own
messages, rather than just repeating "Can we go
to McDonalds", "I love Ronald", and "Big Macs
don't make you fat", over and over and over.
Realistically, you can do two things with one
of these (and no, I don't include "install
FreeDOS" as a viable option)... You can install
Linux on it, or you can install the version of
Windows you bought for your old machine (which,
assuming you remove it from your old machine,
you won't violate any likely-to-stand-in-court
aspects of the Windows EULA).
these guys probably allready own a crapload of licenses
Yeah, I'd bet that a lot of companies want to purchase all of their licenses through their MS licensing program - I believe my company specifically requires that new computers not ship with Office so that they can use a site-license which "simplifies license management and reduces TCO" or something like that. If they site-license Windows, they buy a (cheap?) license and get upgrades for the life of the license (I think... I stopped keeping up with the MS licenses a while ago)
The only reason FreeDOS is on there is because they can't ship hardware without an OS.
Is this new? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Insightful)
I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products. We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, last year we bought a bunch of Dell PowerEdge 2650s with RedHat 9 (and then had to purchase RHEL only six months later because of that end of life bullshit...but that's another story).
Anyway, Dell has a really good installer that asks a couple of questions, then installs RedHat with all the right options for the hardware, including Dell's drivers for their gigabit ethernet card and RAID 5 config. It even included a custom hardware PNP lookup file with identifiers for all the components in the server that aren't in the standard distro.
Dell also have their management interface for linux, which does everything the windows version does.
I was quite impressed with Dell (Not so much with RedHat over that end of life thing)
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Out of curiosity, when you purchased these servers, was a windows CD included? Numerous times I have bought a "linux" server from HP or Dell, only to find out I payed for a Windows OS anyway, it just was not installed...
YMMV, of course
--rhad
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
Chuck found that US customers can purchase Dell systems with FreeDOS: Perhaps this is old news but browsing on Dell's Small Business site, I noticed that they are now offering select systems bundled with FreeDOS. From the web site: The n series features select popular models from the DimensionTM , OptiPlexTM and Dell PrecisionTM desktop lines sold without a Microsoft(R) operating system. Offered for IT professionals who want control over operating system development and installation, n series desktops are available with a copy of the FreeDOSTM open-source operating system included in the box, ready to install. Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only.
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1534
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Informative)
"Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only."
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Interesting)
Next I'll think about replacing my server! At ~300$ I can't afford not to upgrade!
CB
Re:Is this new? (Score:4, Informative)
Usually Intel (modified to use the proprietary Dell power supply)
What's the wattage of the Power Supply?
The wattage of the Dell power supplies is generally sufficient to run the Dell just fine plus a few hard drives and other upgrades. The problem is that they use proprietary power supplies. There is NO TECHNICAL REASON to do this other than to lock customers in. If you charge enough for a replacement unit, customers will probably just buy a new PC instead.
The power supplies are like ATX, and at least a few years ago used an ATX-look alike connector. They may have changed this, because plugging a standard ATX PS into Dell motherboards would let the smoke out of the PS, possibly the Dell itself.
Fun.
What kind of RAM is used? DDR Dual Channel? What brand is the RAM?
Dell usually uses major brand RAM--whatever they can get cheapest in bulk. Not an issue. The RAM generally uses conservative timings, but then, timings really don't matter for most applications beyond 1-5% performance.
What brand is the hard-drive? What is the rotational speed of the hdd? How much cache does the hdd have?
Dell often uses Seagate or, IIRC, Maxtor. Not an issue, really.
Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware.
Decent Dells (i.e. not the super cheap systems with integrated video, etc.) use pretty good hardware. The problem is that the pretty good hardware is also pretty proprietary. Some parts are interchangeable, particularly with their overpriced gaming systems, but you buy Dell for the support (on paper at least) and because they are cheap. If you are a business, you buy them because they are a major OEM and give great support if you are a big buyer. And because they are cheap.
Dells are not meant for geeks that can build their own system from parts. They are meant for the other 95% of people that want a little black box that just works, and if it doesn't, has a toll-free number to call for help.
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Is this new? (Score:5, Funny)
If you can't use the old RAM simultaneously then just stick it in a drawer or velcro it to the interior of the case. When the machine needs servicing, put the old RAM in.
Compaq pulls that same deal. We put 1GB chips in a bunch of servers that were ordered with 128MB. Compaq didn't want to service the machines but the old RAM was in a desk drawer. Put it back and let the whiny Compaq guy work on dog slow 128MB machines.
Re:Is this new? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Now how about... (Score:5, Informative)
Yeah that's what I'd like to see. I e-mailed Dell two months ago about getting a laptop without Windows XP on it and this is what they said: (in short they said tough luck)
> Problem Description:
>
------
I tried to purchase the Inspiron 5100 Notebook online but I noticed when I selected the option to customize that I was not able to remove Windows XP from the selection. As a long time "alternative operating system user", I have no desire to pay for an Operating System that I have no intention on using.
-------
Dear Sir,
Thank you for choosing Dell Online Customer Care.
I apologize for any inconvenience this matter may have caused.
Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with your request.
Online Sales Center at 1-800-915-3355 ext 62032 or via e-mail
at:
DHS_On-Line_Order@Dell.com
Re:Is this new? (Score:4, Informative)
That said, it is entirely possible that the company you pointed to uses the same ODM as Dell, in which case it may indeed be easy to get more or less the same laptop for a lower price.
Interested parties may also look at www.powernotebooks.com and www.pctorque.com. These guys sell Eurocom and Sager (=Clevo) laptops at lower prices than many. It is a good way to get the same laptop, POSSIBLY MINUS SUPPORT, for a lower price.
i'll bite. (Score:3, Funny)
Hmm (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Hmm (Score:3, Informative)
I for one (Score:2, Interesting)
FreeDOS (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:FreeDOS (Score:5, Funny)
You can operate your disc system. Duh.
Re:FreeDOS (Score:2)
Re:FreeDOS (Score:5, Informative)
Those licenses are not transferable. You can't even blow away a PC and reload it with another copy of the OS you bought with it.
Re:Good Fucking Lord (Score:3)
Yes, but are you FREE enough to say with your NAME? *NOT* as an AC?
Re:FreeDOS (Score:5, Informative)
If you read the fine print carefully, you will discover that the N series systems actually ship with no operating system installed. They include a FreeDOS media kit in the box. This way you don't have to pay any Microsoft tax on the machine. I suppose you could use the FreeDOS to test the machine before you installed the Linux distro of your choice,
Re:FreeDOS (Score:3, Informative)
Re:FreeDOS (Score:3, Insightful)
Not True. I work there (Score:4, Interesting)
FreeDOS? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you sell a computer with a software you need to support both, and supporting FreeDOS is much easier than Linux
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:FreeDOS? (Score:5, Funny)
Now THAT is a stupid question to ask on slashdot.
Re:FreeWindows? (Score:5, Informative)
IMO, This is great (Score:5, Interesting)
Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux?
If its because of some MS rules, then I understand. If not, they should include more options.
Eather way, they are allowing an OSS OS to be bundled. GOOD LUCK TO DELL!
Element Computer (Score:5, Informative)
If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:5, Interesting)
- Harddrive Upgrade to 60GB
- Internal Optical Combo CDRW/DVD
- Memory 512MB
- Model 17" LCD
- Processor Upg. to 2.66 Ghz P4m
- Software ProductivityPak,GamePak,SolitaireAce
- Wireless None
$1,938
iMac 17" [apple.com]
512MB DDR333 - 2 DIMMs
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
17-inch flat panel LCD
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
4x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
Apple Keyboard
Apple Mouse
Apple Pro Speakers
$1,899.00
iMac is cheaper, has a dedicated graphics card, a professionally supported UNIX OS, a better processor for any sort of media, better built-in software, a 4x DVD-R, and 20GB more HD space, not to mention the better design and compatibility with all sorts of other devices. Plus options for internal bluetooth, etc.
And people say Macs are expensive?
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:3, Funny)
Try comparing the iMac to _this_, then (Score:3, Informative)
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional (not the default "Home Edition")
FREE TurboTax(R) Basic for Tax Year 2003
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 333MHz (2x256M)
80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
3.5 in Floppy Drive
Single Drive: 8x DVD+RW Drive
Combo: RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe (DVD+RW only)
Dell(R) Quietkey(R) Keyboard
Dell(R) 2-button scroll mouse
Productivity Pack including WordPerfect(R) and Money(R)
17 in E171FPb Flat Panel Display
128MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Graphics Card with TV-Out
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:4, Informative)
No, maybe not. Ya see, Windows Movie Maker is the 'Notepad' of movie editing on Windows.
But you could use Magix video deLuxe PLUS [magix.net], Magix Movie Edit Pro 2004 [magix.net], Sony Screenblast Movie Studio [sonypictures.com], Ulead Videostudio [ulead.com], Pinnacle Studio [pinnaclesys.com], Roxio VideoWave Movie Creator [roxio.com]
Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey? (Score:3, Interesting)
Plus, there's something about being able to upgrade that PC as needed, instead of being locked into Apple's (or Dell's) lame "throw away the whole computer and buy a new one" scheme.
E.g., do I need new hard drives? Not really.
Do I need to buy a new OS _minor_ version every year, like you Mac fans seem happy to? Hell, no. This here Windows 2000 (full version, and yes, paid for) still runs every
Why not Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why not Linux (Score:5, Insightful)
In one word, "Support"
It's a lot easier (i.e. cheaper) to support FreeDOS than linux. You are still free to wipe the drive and install your OS of choice.
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:4, Informative)
Their website seems pretty light on the details about linux but this page [dell.com] tells you what systems it is available for. Then again, anyone who actually wants linux on a desktop machine probably knows how to obtain and install their favorite distro anyway.
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:2, Informative)
Wal-Mart has had a cheap workstation for sometime that you can purchase without an OS, or get it with Lindows (I think). They aren't available in stores, only on their website, but its good that there are options out there.
It'd make a great little server to play with
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:4, Interesting)
The new desktops appear to be a slick interpretation of Microsoft's new licensing terms and a way to navigate customer demand for PCs without an OS installed. The Microsoft licensing terms, which were put in place on Aug. 1, specify that PC makers must ship PCs with an operating system. The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.
Re:IMO, This is great (Score:5, Insightful)
N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.
Which means they are technically charging you MORE for the computer, since they do not incur the cost of the Microsoft license. Or you can look at is as: "We charge you the same for FreeDOS as we do for Windows", which is kinda expensive for FreeDOS (I have installed it, its a mediocre DOS 3.3 clone by their own admission).
This does mean bigger profits for Dell, but it doesn't represent a better value for customers.
Why not Knoppix? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Why not Knoppix? (Score:4, Informative)
I just downloaded featherlinux (70mb i think) to test it. Its supposed to be the best lightweight utility bootable CD version.
feel like losing data? (Score:2)
Inquiring minds want to know (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Inquiring minds want to know (Score:3, Insightful)
This is news? (Score:5, Informative)
FreeDos is a cool project. You should check it out if you haven't yet.
A wake up call for Microsoft? (Score:5, Informative)
justice dept. (Score:4, Interesting)
What is the point? (Score:4, Insightful)
Avoids double dipping (Score:5, Insightful)
Many businesses already have licenses for all the software that they run--either a seat for every user or a site-wide license. For such businesses, a PC that comes with Windows is just wasted money. It would make sense to try to wrestle a discount from Microsoft when such a situation occurs, but monopolies are not often sympathetic to such things.
Re:Avoids double dipping (Score:4, Insightful)
off topic, but the 2 minute rule sucks.
Re:Avoids double dipping (Score:3, Funny)
No problem, these customers will just be upgrading from DOS
Re:What is the point? (Score:2, Insightful)
Wee! (Score:5, Funny)
More precisely (Score:5, Informative)
According to their news entries, this is new for US customers, but it's been available to Canadians for a while.
They will eventually run MSWindows (Score:2)
I've seen that: a company bougth 50 computers that came with XP and installed W2K on it
Re:They will eventually run MSWindows (Score:2)
When Dell stops this, and... (Score:5, Informative)
When Dell stops this [cypherpunks.ca] bullshit, and offers a windows delete credit across their entire product line (without invalidating warranties), then you will finally know that you aren't paying a full microsoft tax when you order a computer with Linux or some other operating system.
Re:When Dell stops this, and... (Score:2)
Uh (Score:4, Insightful)
Then it occured to me that obviously Dell is still just as scared of Microsoft as it was two years ago when they attempted to ship Linux. Microsoft doesn't care if Dell ships with an OS that isn't a threat really. They just don't want Linux in the mainstream.
Shame on you Dell!
Where's the beef? (Score:2)
I have no clue which computer is a "N-series"- all I see are dimensions, precisions, optiplexes, and the like.
And, for some reason, whenever I clicked on a PC's "Customize it" button, it just refeshed the page. Happened on Moz 1.5 and IE 6.
Yeah, I believe it, but it'd be cool to see it, too
Required to have an OS (Score:2, Informative)
Are they doing this for the pirateers out there? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Are they doing this for the pirateers... NO... (Score:3, Informative)
Remember the *double Microsoft Tax*? A large company pays to purchase a system (which has Windows), then they pay again for their special corporate image of windows? If they buy a system like this one, then they've got a single Microsoft tax. It makes sense.
And it makes sense for people who run alternative OSs, of want more of a kiosk, or perhaps have a MAME box they want to get going. For $320 with free shipping, that's one hell
All DOS apps will be belonging to... VisualBasic! (Score:2)
FreeDOS. (Score:3, Funny)
Back in the real world, FreeDOS is about as useful as a deep-freeze in the Arctic circle. Are people supposed to learn to install an OS on new computers? What is this, 1987?
Gotta love that paragraph (Score:2)
'nuff said.
Sweet (Score:2)
2. Install warez windows xp
3. Profit!!
That's the whole point of this promotion. So people can use their wared copies of windows. I doubt it will help linux much.
What's it gonna take to get a Knoppix CD included? (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing for grandma to get messed up with either. Tech support is dead simple.."hello, Mrs. Smigh? Does the computer boot from the CD?...you're OK"
This wouldn't even require formatting the drive....
FreeDOS is a cop-out...... If it's a "cost" issue on Dell's part...I could burn CD's at my house! I'm in for a stack a week.
Let's put together a special Dell CD distro. and ask Dell to distribute it with their OS-less systems. It could show real "good faith" towards a heartless company. It could also suck them into the SCO fun!
pool on when Darl McBride claims FreeDOS IP... (Score:5, Funny)
I would expect Darl will be on the scene shortly, perhaps within a week, claiming that FreeDOS is also owned by SCO.
I will enter my official guess as February 2, "Groundhog Day". If Darl appears and claims more IP, then six more weeks of IP winter will be upon us.
Price difference (Score:5, Informative)
- Dell Dimension 2400N: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, FreeDOS: $369
- Dell Dimension 2400: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, Windows XP: $599
The arithmetic is left as an exercise for the reader.Re:Price difference (Score:4, Insightful)
If you take into consideration the rebate, and the fact that dell charges tax on the 2400N (because it can only be purchased at dell business versus dell home for the 2400), you are actually paying the exact same price for the 2 configurations.
Don't be mistaken, you are still paying the Microsoft tax.
Re:Price difference (Score:4, Insightful)
I bet a large number of buyers will run MS on them (Score:5, Insightful)
My guess is that a decent number of these will be bought by companies, schools, or other organizations that already have some sort of Microsoft site license. They will still pay microsoft, but won't have to pay for a machine with an OS, then pay more to install something over it.
The college I work at has an MS site license through a college consortium. We would buy PC's with one version of Windows then overwrite them with images of another, usually because we weren't ready to deploy whatever the latest and greatest OS yet. I'm sure a lot of businesses have site licenses for NT or 2k and aren't ready yet to deploy XP, and don't want to have to pay for XP licenses when XP would be wiped off 5 minutes after opening the box.
BIOS FLASHING! (Score:3, Informative)
Motherboard BIOS. Updates? DOS floppy or DOS onboard generally required. Not always, especially these days, but geeze. FreeDOS, I assume, will work just as well as DOS for this purpose.
I'm a Mac user and I know this! What's your excuse?
Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:So... (Score:2, Informative)
This doesn't explain why you'd buy it with a brand new Dell though.
Re:Yes but... (Score:2)
Actually, I'm half tempted to do just that. (Well, I'm unlikely to buy one from Dell, but several times recently I've considered putting together a DOS system for the express purpose of playing games.) DOSemu, the last few times I've tried it, has always been difficult to get working, and never works well.
My biggest issue is finding space for another computer. My house is crowded enough as it is.
Re:Yes but... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Yes but... (Score:5, Insightful)
Not much, but it doesn't really matter. Dell is sending a message to Redmond, wait a couple weeks until they get a new deal with M$ ... everyone is doing this very same little trick these days, and I guess freedos is easier to support than linux for Dell while the negotiations take place ...
Re:Yes but... (Score:4, Insightful)
but litigation proof, should the FUD of SCO prevail
if I buy the system with a linux cd in the box and wind up owing licensing fees to SCO, I can complain to dell..
if I buy the box with freedos, and load linux, then dell has 'clean hands'
Re:Yes but... (Score:5, Interesting)
So you can put on whatever OS you want and Dell doesn't owe you software support. Obviously, this deal is designed to appeal to geeks who want cheap systems.
WinModem (Score:2)
Most likely doesn't even support the WinModem this POS box more than likely comes equiped with. ;-)
Re:Yes but... (Score:3, Interesting)
There is a lot of old DOS software that is still in use by people with old hardware that don't want to upgrade. Such as small businesses that can't afford consultants that still use the same Point of Sale equip
Re:Linux (Score:3, Troll)
Maybe they figured that Linux folks could install Linux themselves and this way they aren't putting themselves at risk in case SCO wins their lawsuit. (Which is a very small risk, but maybe Dell doesn't see it that way.)
Plus, Microsoft *really* hates Linux. I still have some friends who work there ( I used to work there at one time), and they all say that the culture within the company is just an absolute hatred for Linux.
Because they're really shipping it with no OS. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:It feels wrong. (Score:4, Interesting)
I prefer to think of it as getting a happymeal toy that lets you record your own messages, rather than just repeating "Can we go to McDonalds", "I love Ronald", and "Big Macs don't make you fat", over and over and over.
Realistically, you can do two things with one of these (and no, I don't include "install FreeDOS" as a viable option)... You can install Linux on it, or you can install the version of Windows you bought for your old machine (which, assuming you remove it from your old machine, you won't violate any likely-to-stand-in-court aspects of the Windows EULA).
Re:You guys that question the OS keep forgetting (Score:4, Insightful)
Yeah, I'd bet that a lot of companies want to purchase all of their licenses through their MS licensing program - I believe my company specifically requires that new computers not ship with Office so that they can use a site-license which "simplifies license management and reduces TCO" or something like that. If they site-license Windows, they buy a (cheap?) license and get upgrades for the life of the license (I think... I stopped keeping up with the MS licenses a while ago)
The only reason FreeDOS is on there is because they can't ship hardware without an OS.