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"Virtual Bridge" Between London, Vienna Et Al. 141

Posted by Hemos from the build-it-and-they-will...conference dept.
dr.matrix writes "Read in Heise (German) how Tholos Systems wants to create a huge outdoor 360 degree video conference between all european capitals, starting with London and Vienna." Pretty impressive technology, but the purpose is still a bit unclear.
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"Virtual Bridge" Between London, Vienna Et Al. More

"Virtual Bridge" Between London, Vienna Et Al.

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  • That's clear! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by quigonn ( 80360 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:17AM (#7317959) Homepage
    Pretty impressive technology, but the purpose is still a bit unclear.

    That's art! It doesn't have to serve a purpose, but still may be useful for somebody.

  • huh? (Score:2, Funny)

    by CGP314 ( 672613 )
    Read in Heise (German) how Tholos Systems wants to create a huge outdoor 360 degree video conference between all european capitals, starting with London and Vienna." Pretty impressive technology, but the purpose is still a bit unclear.

    You're description doesn't help either. Is this a circular wall that will span from London to Vienna? What's the point of a 360 degree display if the opposite wall is hidden by the curvature of the earth.

    • Re:huh? (Score:3, Informative)

      by sebi ( 152185 )
      They plan to install two pretty big cylinders. One in Vienna, one in London. They are linked via a 100 MBit network connection. One will film a panorama in London and project it in Vienna. The other will, well, do the exact opposite. Apparently people standing in front of one will be able to talk to people standing in front of the other.

      Since I live in one of the two cities about to be connected this way and you seem to live in the other (judging from your URL) we will both see what it is like in May. I am

      • Very cool. What about traffic?

        It seems that this is going to be a huge attention grabbing thing that is going to lead to massive congestion around these areas.

        From this, one also realizes its purpose... profit! Having this will drawn people into this area causing a huge increase in tourism. Hell, I wanna see this thing now.

        Who wants to bet how long it's going to be before some body decides it wants to flash multiple countries at once? Too bad David Blain didn't think of this first.

        • Re:huh? (Score:2, Interesting)

          by sebi ( 152185 )
          While it doesn't say so explicitly after reading this article [wired.com] I am under the impression that they will install the things in the purely pedestrian areas at the centre of the participating cities. It seems like the boss of the company hinted on a possible placement in front of Vienna's Stephansdom. That placement would be perfect for traffic, but maybe not that ideal for unifying Europe. The Stephansplatz is where you will always find more tourists than natives (expect maybe at new years eve) anyway, but I c
      • "I am just wondering how it will work once more than two cities are connected. Imagine being involved in an animated conversation with someone in Berlin only to be switched to Stockholm in mid-sentence."

        Well, depending on how financially successful this is, they could simply make more cylinders. You want to talk to someone in France? Go to the French cylinder. Or they could section off portions of the cylinder to be linked to different areas.


    • Babelfished article [altavista.com]

      Enjoy.
    • for what it's worth ... sounds a bit like a PR release to me

      Open air videoconferencing

      Tholos Systems aim to build a virtual bridge between London and Vienna using "communication cylinders".
      These cylinders, about 3m high and with a 7m diameter feature a 360 projection surface. On these, an "encompassing panorama
      of the current scene" will be visible in highest picture quality, for one. On the other hand, people shall be able to instantaneously
      interact personally with each other. The two prototypes in Londo
  • So another application of wonderfull technology without any clear aim eh? Have no fear - some EU tech minister who couldn't tell the difference between a ZX-81 and a Pentium will pop up soon to tell us how "This will bring the nations of Europe together" Pffft :(

  • deaf europeans (Score:4, Interesting)

    by The Shrubber ( 66351 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:18AM (#7317967)
    Could stand in front of these bridges and sign to each other, sign languages being more mutually intelligible than spoken languages.
    • Considering that a lot of British people don't speak Austrian German, I would suggest most people, hearing or deaf, would resort to the internationally understood language of giving them the finger.

      • Re:deaf europeans (Score:3, Interesting)

        by sebi ( 152185 )

        Considering that a lot of British people don't speak Austrian German, I would suggest most people, hearing or deaf, would resort to the internationally understood language of giving them the finger.

        A lot of Austrian people speak English, though. Or they are at least faking it on Slashdot. Look at me for a perfect example. And English people quite frequently give two fingers instead of just the one.

        • People on Slashdot speak English?

          But seriously, you have a point. I wish fewer people in this country (England) would be so xenophobic towards other Europeans.

          • Re:deaf europeans (Score:1, Interesting)

            by Anonymous Coward
            I don't know. Speaking as an Englishman who has a Dutch father and married an American, I think the whole supposed "xenophobic attitude" that England is supposed to have is simply a myth blown way out of proportion by the usual tabloid media.

            I do wish people would be less schitzophrenic about the E.U though. Thats the tabloid media influance yet again though.
            • Yah, most of the English are half foreign anyway - Norman, Saxon whatever. And that's not even mentioning their Royalty.

              Back when I was in England, I practically laughed when a Brit commented on someone not being pure blooded English (I doubt he was being racist - just one of those off the cuff comments). Coz that's almost oxymoronic.

              The English are ok - the Scots probably have xenophobia towards the English. And the sheep probably have a phobia vs the Welsh or something ;).

              The reason why I say the Engli
              • "The Brits might be a bit more reserved, but hey you'd be if it rained most of the time"

                That's a common misconception. It hardly rains at all in Britain (compared with somewhere where it REALLY DOES, like Seattle), the reason we have this reputation is that it's overcast (and therefore looks as if it MIGHT rain) fully 50% of the time.

                Honestly, this year in particular it's been amazingly dry, and we've still had only a few days of significant rainfall in London since the start of summer.
                • I know I know :). I was in Manchester for a while.

                  And almost everywhere else in England is dry compared to Manchester - a friend there insists that the Sun is a mythical object (not the newspaper).

                  BTW, these past years the weather has been crazy...

        • Und ve could tell zem ja, zis is how yoo become successful in der English-shpeaking countries. Yoo can even become Gubernator of der California!

          Now how would you convey that in sign language?
      • Not entirely correct.
        I read in the papers (De Morgen, weekend edition) that the system will be equipped with a whole lot of directional mikes and speakers, so you could talk with whoever is displayed before you. This will be quite cool stuff actually, like a community-vidphone.
        I wonder how long it takes before the first marriage-over-tholos :-)
    • Not just deaf people; it could really revolutionise things for other minorities too. Exhibitionists, for example.

    • What is your source for that? British sign language is from all reports different from American sign language (which is similear to french sign language). I'm told that the two are not particularrly mutually intelligible.

      I'm not deaf, and I don't know any sign languages so I can't claim it is true, but I given that I question your claim.

  • OK, but (Score:3, Funny)

    by jabbadabbadoo ( 599681 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:18AM (#7317970)
    The problem with 360 degree screens is that I loose 180 degrees of information...

  • The facts. (Score:5, Informative)

    by sebi ( 152185 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:21AM (#7317972)
    This is not a direct translation, but rather the gist from the original German article. Please forgive the shitty English.

    The first two cylinders are supposed to be installed in March of 2004. They plan to connect all European capitals by 2008. The plan is to have them feature views from other cylinders in the "best picture quality". Additionally people will be able to contact their counterparts at the other cylinder in "sound and picture"

    The cylinders seem to cost about two million Euro a piece. They plan to earn money by selling advertising. The advertising will be limited to a maximum of 13% "airtime". Since they plan to be on air 24/7 that translates to 192 minutes of ads per day. They will sell advertising time to "exclusive content-partners" to "not endanger the THOLOS concept" and stop any "dilution" through additional programmes.

    Inside the cylinder you will find eight HDTV-projectors, 22 microphones, 22 loudspeakers and three cameras. Networking is done via 100 MBit-Lines. To protect from vandalism the glass walls will be coated with a "special nano-structured anti-graffiti-protective-coating". And they want to hire security personnel to keep an eye on the expensive hardware around the clock.

    • Re:The facts. (Score:1, Interesting)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "Additionally people will be able to contact their counterparts at the other cylinder in "sound and picture"

      Now that's what I'm talking about. Being able to talk to loved ones in other cities. It does bring up interesting questions though, such as "if one were to drop trow and flash someone in Vienna from London who has the jurisdiction?"
    • To protect from vandalism the glass walls will be coated with a "special nano-structured anti-graffiti-protective-coating".

      Ever see the movie "Turk-182"? This will last about 5 minutes.

  • Since when did technology need a purpose? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by iapetus ( 24050 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:23AM (#7317979) Homepage
    Pretty impressive technology, but the purpose is still a bit unclear.

    I thought we were meant to be nerds - since when did cool technology need a purpose? Build the huge outdoor 360 degree video conferencing system and we'll find a use for it.

    Anyone for the biggest game of UT ever? (And don't even try to tell me nobody's going to try to use it for that...)

  • "teleconference" clarification (Score:5, Informative)

    by the_pooh_experience ( 596177 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:23AM (#7317981)
    What it is is a circular building (see this link [tholos-systems.com] for the concept) that has a TV or projection systems such that the image is around the outside of the building. In the case of this article (I am assuming, as I cannot read German) is that the thing being projected is another EU city. In fact, this is a "teleconferencing" system, so there can be interaction. There is sound, etc...
    A run down of the technology [tholos-systems.com] (sparce as it is) is:
    • 66m2, 360 panoramic digital screen
    • 20 mega pixels - five times HDTV resolution high resolution video projection
    • built-in high-performance graphic system supporting text, video and 3-D visualization
    • digital audio, featuring Hypersound(C), a revolutionary directional sound technology
    It sounds cute. It is meant to bolster "pan-European identity" [tholos-systems.com]

  • Wired News (Score:3, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:26AM (#7317990)
    linky [wired.com]

  • Web Cam on Steroids (Score:5, Informative)

    by bacon-kidney-pie ( 717079 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:26AM (#7317992)
    They have a similar thing here in Sydney in one of the tall buildings. When your going up your lift has a tv in it showing the person going down. Typically they will make rude signs at you and theres nothing you can do about it. There should be more of this. People take themselves far too seriously these days.

  • Cool (Score:4, Funny)

    by kinnell ( 607819 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:28AM (#7317999)
    Anything with a nano-structured anti-gravity protection shield gets my seal of approval.

  • There's an article about it (Score:5, Informative)

    by timbloid ( 208531 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:29AM (#7318003)
    here: http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_830469.html?m enu=news.technology [ananova.com]

    It looks pretty cool, and pretty useless at the same time...

  • this is great! (Score:2, Redundant)

    by ActionAL ( 260721 )
    just use your imagination.. you can be in paris and be near the gateway cylinder and see people in london and wave to them and they can wave back. it's just a form of friendly communication. sure it doesn't make a ton of money, but it will be *fun*
    • It will make a ton of money from 13% of it's airtime being adverts...

      And I think it will be more like;

      guy in london waves to you

      you lift arm

      screen in London switches to Rome

      screen in Paris switches to adverts

      you wave to no-one
      I hope not, but that's how I imagine it :-(

    • In light of France and Englands past personal encounters, I am guessing that there will be lots of flipping of the bird, showing of the buttocks, and shouting of personal insults. The last thing any Englishman wants to see is a Frenchman, and vice-versa.

  • hehe (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Loosewire ( 628916 ) * on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:42AM (#7318052) Homepage Journal
    "The purpose is unclear"
    who cares - it would be coool :-)

  • Will LED drums be used for the televisions? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by kobotronic ( 240246 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:55AM (#7318095)
    In Japan, at the Yokohama central train station there is a large cylindrical television about 2 meters in diameter. It's visually quite impressive and the colors are good. When you touch the glass you can feel the powerful hum of the revolving drum inside. From examining photographs of the outside of the cylinder taken at various exposure times, it appears it's made with approximately 24 groups of 3 vertical LED bars, one for each primary color.

    These bars sweep by the viewer at great speed and 'paint' each pixel dozens of time per second. Similar to DLP projectors, each pixel is illuminated in turn by the different colors. When you look close on one pixel, you can see it's sort of fluctuating. What you're really looking at is a rapid progression of dozens of different colored LEDs flashing their light at you at the same physical point in space. The final result is a very smooth and stable image with a high refresh rate, great brightness and very rich LED colors.

    I wonder if a technology similar to the one above will be used for these booths. Although a busy train station at a major earth quake zone could be considered a particularly hostile environment for a precision engineered rapidly rotating drum of considerable mass, I could easily imagine some european capitals constituting an even more hostile environment in terms of rampant vandalism.

    The technology required to build these things are probably nothing much special, but I think it's a fun neat idea. Perhaps each drum will be switching between cities on regular posted hours and according to some kind of schedule so you can plan ahead to "meet" a friend from another city. These things should be placed by plazas and intersections with lots of pedestrians.

    Another thing - just 3 cameras? That'll probably mean highly oblique angles for most of the people standing right next to the drum, which in turn might mean you don't get all that much out of 'meeting' someone. It would be something truly special if you could look directly at the virtual representation of someone standing right alongside the remote screen and they'd look right back at you.

  • Will it work as intended? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Psychic Burrito ( 611532 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:56AM (#7318106)
    As I see it, this is a free, virtual window into another city. Very nice for separated love couples in two different cities: "Let's meet at the cylinder" etc.. And funny for innocent passer-bys that can see wave and say "hi" to people from another city.

    However, I think the most critical question is: will people be able to look into each other eyes like you would when you are looking trough a real-world window? Well the answer lies in the german article [heise.de]: "Im Inneren eines Zylinders sind sechs HDTV-Projektoren, 22 Mikrofone, 22 Lautsprecher und drei Kameras untergebracht" - "Inside the cylinder there are 6 hdtv projectors, 22 mics and 3 cameras". Only 3 cameras! How will it be possible for more than 3 people to look into their eyes then? Not at all, methinks...

    I think not being able to look into each other's eyes through this virtual window will reduce the coolness factor of the cylinder to an overhyped TV/webcam combo...
    • Since when did it become a problem to have cameras that could capture 120 degrees each?

      • The problem is that for true eye-to-eye communication, for every eye that looks into the screen, you will need a camera at the other city to cover the view (think 3D, and think people are not always perfectly perpendicular to the screen).

        Which of course means a lot more cameras, a lot more bandwith or a very clever 3D simulation. But a very clever 3D simulation still needs more than 1 camera for 120 degrees to work its magic.
    • I've been wondering about that as well. They must be really wide-angel cameras for a 360 view with only three of them. So, if you both (from different cities) do not stand right in front of the camera, it would look like you are both looking at another point (the center of the camera) when in fact you are standing right in front of each other.

      On the other hand, having only three cameras keeps the necessary bandwidth low of course. Three video streams with hdtv quality should already need quite some bandwid
      • First off, I think the idea is freakin' genius.

        But I fail to see why you think only three people would be able to look directly at one another? If you have a 120 degree angle view, say, then rear project it onto a circular screen, distortion caused by the wide angle will be eliminated by distortion from the shape of the screen itself.

        In other words, anyone looking directly at the circle appears to be looking directly out of the circle on the other side, no matter what their position is in relation to the

    • Very nice for separated love couples in two different cities: "Let's meet at the cylinder" etc..

      I can see how the pressures of long-distance relationships might give people ideas for novel uses of the technology. Maybe the security guards would turn a blind eye, but you'd need to watch out for those London winter temperatures.

  • Its like a key point in a spy novel... no one thought about this hunk of art lying around, until revolutionaries use it to orchestrate a massive simultaneous attack (or a bunch of artsy types use it for massive simultaneous silliness)
    • In Basel, Switzerland, pretty much what you describe has happened a few years ago.
      A local TV station with only a few hours programming per day had put up a camera on the main square, and the images of people passing by were broadcast when there was no programming. The camera was about 2-3m up in the air, but resolution was fairly good.

      For the first couple of months, you'd occasionally see people waving or grimacing to the camera. A few months later, they had to take it down, apparently because people in pr

  • Telecom companies against the project (Score:3, Interesting)

    by G4from128k ( 686170 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:58AM (#7318110)
    Think of all the lost long-distance telephone revenues if you can just agree to meet your friend "at the wall' and talk all you want. I wonder if fights will break out over people who are wall hogs.

    Of course, if the wall crowd is too noisy, then people will just get on their cellphones to talk to their wall-buddies. And with those cellphone cameras, you can take a picture of your remote friend on the wall who is taking a picture of you on the their wall and exchange pictures.

  • Cool idea., but (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Bunji X ( 444592 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @07:58AM (#7318111)
    What bothers me is that there is no sign of any technical specifications at all.

    20 mega pixels - five times HDTV resolution

    Sure, very nice if they were to show it on a screen as large as a 28" TV, but on a screen with an area of 66 m^2? 560 pixels/m? That doesn't sound very highres to me.

    Lets calculate bandwidth. 20 Mpix = 20971520*24*3 = 1440 MB/s, uncompressed. That's a lot. Let's say they manage to compress the video 20 times, which could be difficult or expensive with real time compression. That leaves us with 72 MB/s video only over far distances, excluding sound. How are they going to get that through the 100 MBit network they mention in the article?

    Also, I can find no references from google regarding "Hypersound(C), a revolutionary directional sound technology". If it was that revolutionary, someone would have written something about it, you might think.

    I really don't know. It's a cool idea, but it sounds fishy. Is there a working prototype at all, or are they still in the attract-investor-money phase?
    • Of course it is not "20971520*24*3 = 1440 MB/s, uncompressed". It is 20971520*24 = 480 MB/s. 24 MB/s , compressed 20 times without audio. Still, a bit much for a 100 MBit network to handle.
    • You're a little off on the math, but close.

      20MegaPix = 20971520 pixels
      Times 24 Bits per Pix
      HDTV uses 29.97 Frames per second
      Times 3 cameras.
      20971520 * 24 * 29.97 * 3 = 43156.8 MegaBits or 5394.6 Megabytes.

      Now, using multiple 100Mb connections it would take 432 connections just to handle the uncompressed data.
      Someone remarked that Divx can compress 100:1 with no loss. I use video compressors alot. Divx has horrible loss, especially with high resolution. Not to mention you'd have to compress the video 432:1
      • Thanks for the corrections. Just made some quick esitmations for the sake of discussion.

        Although to my understanding the 20 MegaPix was meant to cover data from all three cams?
    • I've seen the Hypersound technology banded around over the years, not sure what its actual name is or how it works (something to do with modulating the sound with a higher frequency maybe) but its basically a highly directional speaker that can only affect a specific area and once you move out of that area the sound quickly goes. Looks impressive, ive only seen it on TV science shows but it seems to work. Even so it would probably be simpler to have the screens in a more enclosed space so you could get bett

  • Abuse (Score:3, Insightful)

    by big_gibbon ( 530793 ) <slashdot&philevans,com> on Monday October 27, 2003 @08:22AM (#7318204) Homepage
    Knowing my countrymen as well as I sadly do, I can't help but feel that while this is a very cool idea, it would soon be hijacked by the wrong elements.

    Look, for example, at the reaction David Blaine got here for his "living in a box" stunt - heckled, taunted, and attacked by a man with golf balls. Personally I was massively entertained by this as Mr Blaine chose to put himself at the mercy of the English public - however, once a few BNP party members are out drunk and want the opportunity to abuse and insult some foreigners, they're going to make their way to the cylinder, where it'll be innocent Viennese passers-by who get the heckling.

    Cool idea, but I can't help but feel it'll engender more international hostility than co-operation. Cynical, aren't I?

  • This means nothing to me... (Score:4, Funny)

    by Dan-DAFC ( 545776 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @08:42AM (#7318292) Homepage
    oh, Vienna.

    (I'll get my coat...)
  • Ah! Vienna.

  • Wired article (Score:3, Informative)

    by moonboy ( 2512 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @09:24AM (#7318510)
    I submitted this last week with a link to the Wired article that can be found here [wired.com].

    I think this is a wonderful concept because of the bad reputation that we Americans (and other countries as well) get because of our governments being essentially our "representatives" to the rest of the world. Also, distance plays a factor as well. I think that if we could have a "face-to-face" with the people from other countries, we could see that we are not all that different from each other. Certainly the language barriers still exist, but that can be overcome as well. I think this has a lot of possibilities.

  • This is a remake of the hole in space (circa 1980) (Score:3, Informative)

    by thbb ( 200684 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @09:57AM (#7318690) Homepage
    This project is a rework of the infamous Hole in Space [ecafe.com] project, dating back to 1980.

    This project consisted in linking together by audio and video two public spaces, without telling the passerby anything about the installation. At some point, bystanders would realize the link was bidirectional and started impromptu conversations between the two locations.

    By a funny twist of things, this project inspired much of the 1980's and early 90's work carried at Xerox PARC and the University of Toronto Telepresence [toronto.edu] project.

    These in turns nurtured a number of startups, such as PictureTel/Polycom, still a leader in videoconferencing technology.

    Notice that by the time, the technology was fully analog, and for having used it in the early 90's, I can say the link quality was far better than most current IP-based videoconferencing is today.

  • If anyone is interested in setting up "video portals" between places like Internet cafes, wired coffee houses, art galleries, colleges, etc., go ahead and contact me.

    Video projectors are easy, it is the audio that would be the biggest challenge. A combination of traditional sound reinforcement techniques (directional mics) and active de-echoing would be required to make it work well.

  • An excellent way to propagate banned source code (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Illserve ( 56215 ) on Monday October 27, 2003 @10:05AM (#7318735)
    Set up a huge panel with DECSS clearly printed on it and aim it at the Washington DC cameras.

    Seriously though I wonder though if they intend to do anything about nudity and obscenity. You know that there are going to be people flashing themselves and holding up big banners with obscenities, particularly anti-Bush stuff (assuming, god forbid, that he's re-elected).
  • Why of cousre, they're plotting to kill us all. hehehe
  • now all the rulers of the nations can be easily contacted by Dr. Evil to tell them his plans of destroying the world
  • Hey we can really have some interesting public trials with this stuff. We could even do it just like in the beginning of Superman the Movie when Jor-El was trying those 3 criminals.

    "The sentence is...death..death...death..(not that will happen in Europe mind you)" :-)
    sri


  • And I'm suggesting "Kumbaya-Vision" (TM)

    No...thank you...No. Hold your applause. Greatness is its own reward.

    .
  • Why whould they pick Vienna [vienna.va.us] of all places?
  • Reminds me of the book where the Magic Dragon franchise had video columns in front of each one showing images from other franchises around the world.

    I think it's a brilliant idea. It has little practical use apart from a sort of virtual meeting point, but I can see this becoming a huge hit. Normal people, who unlike us geeks, will not be worrying about bandwidth, bitdepth, framerates etc will love the idea.
  • This is the sort of thing that politicians love and will have their picture taken standing near it. It will attract large crowds for awhile. In three years it will sit idle due to budget cuts with a sign reading "Temporarily Out of Order"
  • Actually sounds like a good idea, i've seen big screens being wasted on much more pointless projects (namely that stupid coke sign that looks suspiciously like a giant flash application). I can imagine the fun drunk people will have at night with it ;) I dont know how its going to work or how much it will cost but it would be cool to walk into a square and have live screens all around europe/the world and it seems like the sort of thing that would bring people of countries together and make them less ignore
  • So this is the phonebooth of the 21st century. How cool would this be if they shrunk it down and just made life-size video conferencing booths? I have a feeling that once video-conferencing technology gets a bit cheaper, and bandwidth gets a bit bigger and cheaper, that we will indeed see these sorts of things. I personally think it would be an awesome idea to setup a restaurant around one of these at both ends. They could be two entirely different restaurants and you could be observing the other one.

    Or

  • This, or something very similar, has been in the works at the University of Toronto since last year.

    An article [chronicle.com] about this can be found, and the McLuhan Center's current projects [utoronto.ca] page has some more information.

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