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Handhelds Hardware

Bluetooth Headset Roundup 189

Faeton writes " has 5 nifty Bluetooth cellphone headsets reviewed. Looks like we're moving towards the StarTrek Comm unit (check out the size of the Nextlink Bluespoon Digital headset!)"
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Bluetooth Headset Roundup

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  • Prices? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by blackmonday ( 607916 ) *
    I liked the round-up but what matters to me most is price, and I could not find price info anywhere. How much do these things cost?
    • Re:Prices? (Score:5, Informative)

      by mfago ( 514801 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:18PM (#6640050)
      The Bluespoon is US $350. Ouch!

      For another review. []
      • Re:Prices? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by martissimo ( 515886 )
        The Nextel gets ratings that are as good as the Bluespoon and comes in at about a third of the price ;)
        • Re:Prices? (Score:3, Informative)

          and twice the weight.

          I think small form factor is the point here.

          • I can't even understand how my reply even got modded up, since I meant the Sony Ericcson got a similar rating and cost less when i stated the "nextel" did. I totally screwed my reply up somehow...

            But my main point still remains the same, it's ratings for "fit" is higher than the Bluespoon, I would assume that "fit" encompasses comfort, and if it is more comfortable then that is good enough for me (though this is an obviously subjective thing and may vary from person to person)

            Anyways the most interseting
    • It's probably one of those things where if you have to ask, don't bother asking.

      The speaker fits inside your outer ear canal (your ear hole)

      Where was my ear hole again? I forget.

    • Re:Prices? (Score:3, Insightful)

      by DrXym ( 126579 )
      If my local CarphoneWarehouse is anything to go by - a fucking fortune. Headsets cost over 100.

      Which is why bluetooth is one of those cool but rather pointless technologies. Having a mini network is kind of cool, but if the choice is between the minor inconvenience of connecting devices together with a cable or paying many multiples more for bluetooth, I'll what I'd pick former.

      I would be happy to reconsider, but I think the prices are taking the piss at the moment, probably because there are a lot of c

      • Re:Prices? (Score:3, Interesting)

        by rodgerd ( 402 )
        It wouldn't be at all pointless for me - I'm hanging out for bluetooth equipped crash helmets. No dangling cords from helmet to motorcycle for intercom devices.
      • Bluetooth solves a major problem... when you're driving, the phone rings, and you realized your phone is in your pocket and you haven't yet wired your earpiece. That used to be a dangerous thing to do, but since I got a bluetooth car phone, now I just push a button that was added to the dash to receive the call, I don't even have to take my handset out of my pocket.

        Alternately, when I answer a cell call at home, I just toss on a headset without having to deal with a wire dangling between my ear and the ph
      • Jabra BT200: 60 quid from CPW at the moment. Got a better review than the HBH30 and the Nokia ones - I've got one. They rule.
        Leave it in your car in the ashtray, leave your phone in your bag. Get in car - phone rings - pick up teeny headset and talk. Make a call? put in teeny headset, press button and speak a name.

        I guess they're one of those things that you only appreciate how nice they are when you use it. I've had numerous handsfree kits for cars and digging out a tangle of wire from your doorp

    • Re:Prices? (Score:5, Informative)

      by sootman ( 158191 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @07:09PM (#6640460) Homepage Journal
      Huh? The prices are right underneath the purty pictures.

      Bluetake BT400 GII - $70
      Jabra BT200 v1 - $70
      Nextlink Bluespoon Digital - $350
      Nokia HDW-2 - $100
      Sony Ericsson HBH-60 - $100
      • I've tried two headsets with my P800 so far, the HBH-60, and the brand new HBH-35.

        As Howard says, the HBH-60 is quite nice. It's fairly small, sounds good, and performs well.

        The HBH-35 adds a longer battery life and because it has a mic boom that extends towards your mouth, it's better in noisy environments. The ear-holder on the HBH-35 is soft rubber and is more comfortable than the HBH-60 which is about half-rubber and half plastic. The downside with the HBH-35 is that it's larger and just doesn't fe
  • Star Trek? (Score:5, Funny)

    by MoeMoe ( 659154 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:02PM (#6639899)
    I don't remember Kirk having his Phaser set to 'Outdoors' or 'Silent'
  • by Atario ( 673917 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:03PM (#6639905) Homepage
    What's with the Bluetooth folks? I've been hearing about this stuff for ages, yet there's so little in the way of actual products out there. What gives?
    • explained (Score:3, Informative)

      by Fubar411 ( 562908 )
      Bluetooth is kinda like the first time you ever used a remote control for the TV instead of getting up to change the channel. (For those of you who have ever had to actually do that.)

      You make one device discoverable and tell the other to search. And if the profiles are set so that the devices can make sense of each other, they start working.

      I believe with Macs you can control iTunes with the phone (sounds cool) and others are working on getting Winzip to function.

      My experience:
      I have a Sony T68i phone
      • clicker (Score:3, Interesting)

        by sammy baby ( 14909 )

        I believe with Macs you can control iTunes with the phone (sounds cool) and others are working on getting Winzip to function.

        The software you're referring to is called "Clicker []," by Salling Software. It can be used not just to control iTunes, but also basically anything else which responds to AppleScript commands.

        Note - there is a non-zero chance that this is completely useless. But it's hella cool. Make sure to watch their video [] (QuickTime required).

    • I got a combination Nokia 3650 and Sony Ericsson bluetooth headset. Through T-Mobile after rebate, the Nokia phone is almost free - add a $100 bluetooth headset and you're ready. The Sony Ericsson phone is a good match too, if you don't need a speakerphone (I design/demo speech systems so I occasionally use a speakerphone).

      Having a bluetooth headset is fabulous. The Sony headset is incredibly comfortable, and you can wear it all day (I've even accidentally fallen asleep and forgotten to take it off). If
      • by javatips ( 66293 )
        Even better with the SonyEricson t68i, you don't even have to push a button. the phone can listen for a magic word ("I wanna talk") then you can tell who you want to talk to!
  • by Hogwash McFly ( 678207 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:04PM (#6639909)
    Price of new mobile phone: $400
    Price of bluetooth headset: $60
    The look on that chick's face as she sees you talking to yourself with what looks like a cybernetic implant in your ear: Priceless
    • by cioxx ( 456323 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:19PM (#6640062) Homepage
      To quote George Carlin:

      here is a group of people that are missing chromosomes and should be hurled from an airplane at 20,000 ft. these dickheads that use these hands free phones, you know they can't be away from the phone in case Henry Kistenger calls. So I say
      "Hey spaceman as long as your hands are free why don't you reach your hand over here and fondle my balls."
  • by Anonymous Coward
    I have been doing some modifications to 802.11b notebook cards, namely to increase the potential range of receiving connections... for purely legitimate purposes, of course *cough*
    Anywho- I was wondering what sorts of antennae mods could be used to increase the range of bluetooth signals...
    A lot of the new cell phones have bluetooth connectivity, I was wondering what sort of fun could be had with a bluetooth sniffing program, or a jammer, for that manner...
    • I was wondering what sort of fun could be had with a bluetooth sniffing program

      Since Bluetooth offers a service/device discovery mode, you don't need any special software. Simply check for mobile devices in your neighbourhood. Worked like a charm at the last CeBit in Hannover: someone had a BT-Internet Access Point, no password required... I decided not to buy those WLAN voucher and happily surfed with my iPAQ. And of course you can always find a friendly phone that announces its presence and decide to d
  • by at_kernel_99 ( 659988 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:08PM (#6639949) Homepage
    Yeah, but which one works well when driving down the freeway in a topless jeep with the (mud) tires howling at 75mph?
    • According to the article...

      "One of the Bluespoon's selling points (besides the amazing size and battery life) is the fact that it has a built in DSP (digital signal processor) that helps cancel noise. In my fan test there was a noticeable drop in fan noise whenever I talked indicating that the noise canceling really does work. Cool stuff."
    • I hope your insurance is paid up!
    • How bout you not talk on the phone while driving down the freeway in a topless jeep at 75mph? With or without a bluetooth headset for your phone does not help killing yourself.
  • Looks like we're moving towards the StarTrek Comm unit
    I hope people don't start talking in klingon in public while using one of these...
  • Hi.

    Can anyone point me to links that will tell me when i will be able to use bluetooth headsets such as my jabra earphone that he reviewed with REGULAR phones. Either thru and adapter or a new phone.

    Thank you...
  • StarTrek Comm unit (Score:3, Interesting)

    by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:16PM (#6640021)
    A closer example of a Start Trek Comm unit would be this [] unit from Vocera. Of course, there is also the Nextel system which both behaves and looks [] surprisingly similar to the communicators from the original Star Trek series.
    • I believe the original comment was in respect to the comunications receiver that Uhura used. It looked like a cylinder with fins radiating perpendicular to the axis of the cylinder in a double cone shape, that leaned down and forward of the ear. Occasionally Uhura would "adjust" the frequency response, or range by touching and turning various fins.

      Personally I think the fins looked more like a heat radiator than a radio antena, but then what do I know.

      Cell phones have already looked like the individual lo
  • ... is a bluetooth headset that doesn't make me look silly.
    • by joe_bruin ( 266648 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @07:03PM (#6640411) Homepage Journal
      ... is a bluetooth headset that doesn't make me look silly.

      this is not possible with current technology. the way bluetooth works is by creating a localized field of ionized nerd particles, that is then used as the carrier medium for bluetooth signaling. nerd particles are generated by things such as pda's, usb data sticks, certain ringtones, linux, and watches with calculators in them, and they naturally dissipate into the atmosphere and decay into harmless forms such as boba pearls. however, bluetooth acts as a concentrator, keeping the nerd particles from collapsing and creating a short range distortion field, making thing within it seem extremely nerdy. engineers are still working on resolving this issue, although an interim solution is to have a really hot girlfriend.
  • Jabra (Score:2, Informative)

    by tackaberry ( 694121 )
    I had mixed results with the Jabra and a non-Bluetooth phone.

    It worked reasonable well with my Timeport, but not as well with my wife's Samsung. However, even with the Timeport, it was a pain to Accept a call, or Terminate one. I constantly had to go back to using the phone's button, rather than the headset buttons.

    Another problem was determining whether or not it was still in Active mode or on Standby. There is a sound tone which goes up in pitch or down in pitch when you turn it on/off. Most of the
  • Why is it so impossible to find any of these headsets at local electronics stores (let alone an official T-Mobile, cingular, ATT, or Verizon store).

    All I can find is some crappy bulky looking Belkin headset and a huge Jabra one at Circuit City. What a joke!
  • by Hogwash McFly ( 678207 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:19PM (#6640059)
    If you want to talk hands free when you're out and about on you mobile and you don't have the cash to spend on Bluetooth headsets, these things [] are ideal
  • No difference (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Stashia* ( 695757 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:20PM (#6640078) Homepage
    These devices will not do much to lessen the distraction drivers have when talking on their mobiles.

    The issue is the immediacy of the mobile phone conversation. It diverts the attention that a driver needs to be placing elsewhere. ic -evidence.html

    Studies have shown that there is negligible difference in the increased accident probability for users of these devices as opposed to hand-helds.

    If you need to take a call on your commute, do us all a favor and pull over!
    • If you dont have to look at and press buttons how is it any more distracting than conversing with someone in the passenger seat?
      • If you dont have to look at and press buttons how is it any more distracting than conversing with someone in the passenger seat?

        Because the person sitting in the passenger seat is aware of what's happening around you, and tends to not only stop talking when a situation arises, but is more likely to notice a situation developing and draw your attention to it.

        Someone on a mobile phone will be blissfully unaware, and keep taking through the moments when you need _all_ your attention on the road.
    • by FreeLinux ( 555387 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:36PM (#6640208)
      I saw this article [] today and found it very interesting. For all the screaming about the dangers of driving while using cell phones (obviously there are dangers), the AAA study found cell phones to be much lower on the list of problems than one might expect. Far more problems were cause by some very mundane things that I am sure we are all guilty of at some time or another. Notice the statistics at the bottom of the article.
    • Oh, please. I'm pretty damn sure talking on the phone is much less distracting than, say, eating a big mac, or putting on make up. I don't see anybody up in arms over those issues.

      • I think it varies from person to person. Some people are better equipped at splitting their attention than other people. It's the same thing as people who can watch CNN while reading the sidebars and news tickers and getting the full story all at the same time. My wife hates the sidebars because they distract her from the news anchor. I think they should develop a test to see who is capable of driving while talking and who isn't. I'll bet you find that a majority of the population is not safely able to
    • Re:No difference (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Moofie ( 22272 )
      Until these studies control for accidents that occur when the driver is speaking with a passenger, they will be unconvincing to me.

      If talking to people is dangerous, drivers should be forced to wear gags.
      • Until these studies control for accidents that occur when the driver is speaking with a passenger, they will be unconvincing to me.

        So far, I have seen two studies about cellphone accidents, and both took into account passengers talking. Very simply, people do not keep talking at lightening speeds when they are in the car and see that there is heavy traffic, a hazard, etc. Passengers are distracted from their conversations when the drivers need to be paying attention to the road.

        You know, maybe this wil

        • How do you make that control? How do you gather data on whether the driver or the passenger was in the middle of a sentence when the accident occured? The data do not exist. I would love for you to give me a citation demonstrating my error.

          Videophones, as long as the camera shows the driver but the driver can not see a screen, will be no more or less dangerous than current car-borne activities (such as headbanging and makeup application). Giving the driver a picture of the person they're talking to is
          • How do you make that control? How do you gather data on whether the driver or the passenger was in the middle of a sentence when the accident occured?

            I am talking about lab experiments. They test reaction time when talking on the cellphone, and reaction time when talking to a passenger.

            They have done the same type of expriments before to show the results of alcohol, lack of sleep, etc.

            So, if drivers LISTENING is the problem, then we'll get rid of radios, an gags for all the passengers

            Radios aren't a p

    • You know, I find watchin people very interesting... When they see someone driving normally but talking on a cellphone, they say that person is dangerous and driving like a maniac.

      Meanwhile, if someone talking on a cellphone is driving slower to be safe, people complain that the person is "in their own little world".
    • is a pretty funny site, as is the radio show. Check out "Car Talk Haiku" [].
      My favorite is:

      Forty in fast lane
      Cellular conversation
      Entropy awaits

    • Bullshit

      There is a HUGE difference between using a handsfree kit and holding the phone in your hand. Both distraction-wise and your ability to control the car (both hands on the wheel vs. one). I've got personal experience with this - I feel very uncomfortable talking on my phone without handsfree while driving (Hence I don't do it.), meanwhile I find that I can easily keep my eyes on the road/mirrors and both hands on the wheel when using a handsfree kit.
  • On (Score:4, Informative)

    by Atticu5 ( 693001 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:23PM (#6640097) Homepage Journal
    As an aside, I find that is a very informative resource for all sorts of cell-phone tech. Definately worth adding to your bookmark list!

    (PS. If someone wants to buy me the Bluespoon [], I'd be much obliged...)
    • Sure it looks neat but the interface is really stupid. To turn it on, you have to hold both buttons then release one of them after a certain amount of time, or something like that. It was easy to miss the timing window either. Very stupid UI IMO.
  • Interoperability (Score:3, Interesting)

    by neglige ( 641101 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:27PM (#6640127)
    A major problem Bluetooth is currently facing is interoperability. During the test it seems that some of the headsets were paired with different phones, but they were mostly Nokia phones (which supposedly do not differ too much when it comes to the BT implementation).

    Buying one of those earpieces and trying to pair it with your [fill in brand here unless Nokia] phone could be difficult. Not to mention the BT dongle for the PC. If you were hoping for a hands-free headset that gives you more Counterstrike kills, you'll probably find that your dongle does not support the necessary profiles [].
    • What the hell are you talking about? He tested every headset with the Sony Ericsson T68 and some Nokia. Every headset that supported the headset and handsfree profiles worked with every phone. The headsets that didn't support handsfree didn't work with the one Nokia.

      As far as Bluetooth dongles for you're PC, perhaps you should buy a PC [] that doesn't need silly dongles.
  • by wfmcwalter ( 124904 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:30PM (#6640160) Homepage
    Bluetooth needs a new slogan:

    Bluetooth: erasing the descernable difference between people with really nice cellphones and those with advanced delusional schizophrenia.

    Is that person mubling behind you on the train really an important businessman, or does he just think he is? Worse, is that CIA agent who just dialled your number real, or is he just one of the voices? With bluetooth(tm) there's essentially no way to know!

    Next thing you'll be thinking you're living in some kind of futuristic hi-tech paradise where people communicate with lightning-powered machines. Yeah right - you're really still back at the pigfarm on Jutland and it's still 1282. Get used to it.

  • No figures for this anywhere. Do you need a tin foil hat to use one?
  • Error in article (Score:3, Informative)

    by Jeremiah Blatz ( 173527 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @06:58PM (#6640358) Homepage
    The author notes that the Nokia comes with a removable NiHM battery. He then complains that NiMH's suck, because they have memory effects. This is not the case. NiCd batteries have a memory effect, not NiMH's.
  • Nice review (Score:2, Interesting)

    I liked and understood his review. He clearly stated his benchmarking process, and included tests of things real people do. He made mention of things that normal people find annoying. The bit about 'my father has a large ear canal' made me laugh.

    If only more video card reviews were like this.
    • I'd get really disgusted if a video card review site said, "This thing had great 3D performance in Quake3, Doom3, and Unreal Tournament 2003. Except that it kept giving me strange discoloration when looking at high resolution porn JPGs."
  • Screw cell phones (Score:4, Interesting)

    by droleary ( 47999 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @07:11PM (#6640471) Homepage

    Am I the only one that would love a Bluetooth headset for my computer? I use Mac OS X and have a number of speakable items, and it would be a great boon if I could I use a headset as the exclusive input/output for spoken commands. Why do I never see a single one of these things even make an effort at breaking into the desktop market?

    • There are adapters from Orange Micro [], TDK, MSI, and Brainboxes (to name a few) that make the Bluetooth headsets described in the article usable with your Mac.
      • Thanks for the pointer, but sadly the page states "Mac OS X support expected late 2003". Maybe that means they're expecting something in 10.3 that'll support them in the OS. As it stands, it still doesn't look like OS X supports independent communications channels. That is, it offers a microphone selection for speech recognition but no sound selection for the output; there is only the single, global sound output system preference. So much (for now) for my dreams of talking to the computer as though I h

  • by Keith Gabryelski ( 65602 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @07:19PM (#6640544) Homepage
    yeah, i look like like a 6' 3" shaved head borg with the sony/ericsson ear piece (which is priceless) but... man what a pain in the butt.

    you have to recharge the thing... and i don't know about you -- but i barely get the time to charge my phone as needed. it's also unfortunate you can't chain together charging devices like this -- but that is a whole different gripe.

    you have to work with a new interface on the damn ear piece to answer the phone (or send the call back to phone) which is a hurdle. yeah laugh away smart boy... try three of these devices and for a few months and drop one important call and you will never use it again.

    because of artifacts of digital transmission (jitter buffers and individual buffer sample size) the use of blue tooth headsets increases the end to end delay over a sometimes already intollerable cellphone network delay.

    the price is insane.

    reception with the phone is not perfect. I don't understand everything about interference but there is a lot of it... and, again, if you are on an important call you and can't hear the other person you are likely to just drop this thing in the trash.

    blueTooth's transmission wave length is in the range of microwaves (i.e. water heating range). why would anyone want that radiation near their brain.

    to sum up: save your money...
    • blueTooth's transmission wave length is in the range of microwaves (i.e. water heating range). why would anyone want that radiation near their brain.

      Your phone's signal is hundreds of times stronger than any bluetooth headset, yet I don't hear you complaining about having a mobile phone near your body.

    • I have a Nokia 6310 and use the Sony Ericsson HBH-30 headset. I have used this combination for about 6 months.

      I have found the combination to work brilliantly. Once the devices are paired, to reconnect and disconnect is quicker and easier than it was with a "wired" handsfree headset. The ability to answer calls and hang them up from the headset is great, and the lower EMR output (compared to the phone) puts my mind at ease (whether or not I'm deluding myself ;).

      I have never had a dropout, and once I
  • there's a dude here in my office that wears one of the Jabra headseats 24/7, and everyone else makes fun of him behind his back. we joke about the guy having been assimilated by the borg. the funny thing is that he's such a loser that nobody ever calls him. we've never seen him actually talking on it. he's an older guy who's always buying useless crap, and it's apparent to everyone else that he thinks it gives him status. it's really, really pathetic. i advise all of you against these. At the very least, do
  • The ccc [] has set up a bluetooth device tracking system at Chaos Camp [].

    Chaos camp is currently happening in a field near Berlin. There are about 10 monitoring points around the campsite, when someone wanders past with a bluetooth phone in their pocket it is logged on a webpage. The type of bluetooth device is shown along with the device name such as "Jim's ph0wn" or "Nokia 789" This uses off the shelf bluetooth dongles. The potential for tracking people is obvious as is the potential for setting up an early

  • Who really cares? Guess they're handy if you use your phone a lot, but not for the average joe.

    What I want is bluetooth cans (or headphones, for the Americanly challenged). That would be the end of wires for me when I'm on the road with my laptop. And it would be nice to actually use the built in bluetooth in my laptop for something (other than uploadin porn movies to my Nokia).

    There is this Korean firm (Openbrain) [] which have developed bluetooth cans, but this page has been present for more than a year, a

  • by macemoneta ( 154740 ) on Thursday August 07, 2003 @09:10PM (#6641207) Homepage
    Let's see... the lowest cost unit in the roundup is $70, and it's replacing:

    - 3 feet of wire,
    - an earphone, and
    - a microphone,

    which is available at my local dollar store. Yes, for one dollar (cash American) I can get the same wired earbud/microphone that came with my Motorola phone (free), except without the logo.

    WiFi at least keeps people from having to ruin a perfectly good weekend or two, drilling holes in walls and fishing cables. But Bluetooth???

    I've never understood why someone would want to replace a high security, exquisitely simple, low cost device with a complex, battery consuming, expensive, insecure device. It's not like you have the option of running SSH or IPSEC over Bluetooth, even if you wanted to.

    Besides, earphones are cool! You wear them with sunglasses and you look like a narc. :-)
    • I have a Nokia HDW-2, so you can immediately file me in the "Kook" category

      I wanted a Bluetooth headset precisely because I wanted to avoid wires from the phone to the headset. My job means I do spend a not inconsiderable time in the car, although not enough to justify a full on car kit (although I'm keeping my options open for the next car being bluetooth equipped...). My experience has been that wired headsets get in the way when driving: even if you've allowed enough slack in the leads, looking left and

  • Has anyone interfaced one of these to a computer? Do they work on a standard protocol? Something that Linux works with? It would be handy in voice controlling a car computer that I've been thinking about hacking together for fun. Every extra wire eliminated in such a cluttered environment would be a blessing.
    • They can if your computer supports the bluetooth headset profile. The problem with this is only TDK makes a card now that supports the headset profile so your choices are limited. The TDK card works but isn't currently built in to any computing devices. Even after getting this don't expect anything stellar, the quality is low and there is no way to easily set different audio input/outputs when turning on the headset (no "roaming" profiles).

      Still it is quite cool to start up a yahoo voice chat with someone
  • I got one of these models (actually a previous one the HBH-30) so it's good to see it got highest marks. Actually I don't have a bluetooth phone, I have a mac and I wanted to use it with the voice chat programs like ohphoneX or I guess iChat now.

    Anyway, bad luck, OS X doesn't support the right connection mode yet (SCO synchronous connection-oriented) although at the WWDC they hinted that it would be in the next revision IIRC. Until then I'm SOL or looking for other options, I don't really feel like learnin
  • Now all I need is for these to get cheaper. Say, $20? Though, I'd probably cave in at $40.
  • I am working with an app that deals with simple voice recognition (IBM ViaVoice, to be exact). The app works OK, no full dictation, just some very discrete commands.

    I was wondering if a Bluetooth headset and a USB dongle would be an adequate mirophone replacement. Voice recognition apps are usually a bit sensitive to mic quality.

    Has anyone tries this?

    And does any Linux drivers exist that can read the sound stream off a USB dongle?

A committee is a group that keeps the minutes and loses hours. -- Milton Berle