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Hardware

The Thermal Paste Revolution 255

Posted by CowboyNeal from the best-of-the-goop dept.
arhines writes "ZZZ is running an article about an interesting new thermal paste which surpasses even solder in thermal conductance by 33 percent. If this paste makes it to the market sometime soon, we'll all surely be thinking about putting it in our boxes. In fact, if use of the paste becomes commonplace, it may even give the semiconductor industry a little speed boost."
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The Thermal Paste Revolution More

The Thermal Paste Revolution

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  • Actually... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by jbardell ( 677791 ) <(moc.oohay) (ta) (68lledrabj)> on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:31AM (#6586118)
    " Lots of OEM or low end cooling setups use either a thermal interface pad (TIM) or that white goop you get at radio shack. The fact is that neither of those does a great job of transferring heat from the processor to the heatsink. While they work ok, they don't exactly assist Moore's law in fulfilling itself by limiting clock speeds with heat." Actually, that's hardly true at all. RS's compound has been found to be one of the best out there. Just take a look at some reviews that include it.

    • Re: Actually... (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Black Parrot ( 19622 )

      > > Lots of OEM or low end cooling setups use either a thermal interface pad (TIM) or that white goop you get at radio shack. The fact is that neither of those does a great job of transferring heat from the processor to the heatsink. While they work ok, they don't exactly assist Moore's law in fulfilling itself by limiting clock speeds with heat.

      > Actually, that's hardly true at all. RS's compound has been found to be one of the best out there. Just take a look at some reviews that include it.

      • Re: Actually... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by gfody ( 514448 ) *
        AFTER peeling off the pad?! you know your suppose to peel that off BEFORE you install the cpu, right?

        • Re: Actually... (Score:5, Informative)

          by Fallen Kell ( 165468 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @06:33AM (#6586650)
          Yep. If you peeled off that pad first, you would have probably gotten another 2-3 degrees. The pad uses a "wax-like" substance (i.e. a solid a room temperature, but liquid when lightly heated). The problem is with pads is that once you heat them after being installed, the wax-like substance just imbedded itself into all the microscopic cracks and holes on the top of both your processor and heatsink (doing its job). But now it is there, it doesn't just come off when you peel off that pad. It is there, and there pretty much for good, acting as a barrier between your heatsink and CPU and any other better thermal compound you use aftward.

          Now, I didn't say it was there perminent, but it is close to it. You can get it off the heatsink, as you simply need to heat up the heatsink (a very hot hair-dryer will do this). Once you heat it up, you can start wiping the heatsink down with a cloth. Or you can lap your heatsink (use several grades of sandpaper to get a polished, flat, smooth surface, usually starting with 100-300 grit paper and working your way up to 1000-3000 grit paper, depending on how "anal" you are :) ). This will remove the outer layer of the heatsink metal as well as the microscopic cracks and holes on it, which will include your heat-pad substance.

          The CPU is almost impossible to fully remove the heat-pad substance. You don't want to lap a modern day CPU, as all you will do is "create" microscopic cracks and holes. Modern CPU's are laser cut and pretty much perfectly flat. There are "some" cracks, but they are much smaller/finer then almost any sand paper you will ever find. You also risk damaging the CPU as the manufacturers now have traces and transistors located micrometers from the top of the CPU surface. Heating the CPU can easily damage it if you are not careful about how hot you let it get. So it is usually very dangerous for you to try to remove the substance from the CPU if you have not already done it several times (or don't mind wasting whatever you spend on that CPU when you need to go out and buy a new one).

          • Re: Actually... (Score:4, Insightful)

            by AKnightCowboy ( 608632 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:02AM (#6587037)
            Heating the CPU can easily damage it if you are not careful about how hot you let it get. So it is usually very dangerous for you to try to remove the substance from the CPU if you have not already done it several times (or don't mind wasting whatever you spend on that CPU when you need to go out and buy a new one).

            You know, that sounds like a major pain in the ass to save a few degrees. Maybe manufacturers should just make cooler CPUs instead of us needing industrial strength copper heatsinks and 19mm fans. I really miss the days when a heatsink and fan were optional on a CPU. I think my 386 was the last of that kind though. My 486DX2/66 ran fine after the fan on the heatsink failed though so the heatsink was good enough. Even most Pentium systems were just fine with a big heat sink and no fan. Nowadays all my Athlon systems sound like I'm at an airport with the 5 or 6 fans I need in my system to keep it cool.

        • Re: Actually... (Score:3, Informative)

          by Black Parrot ( 19622 )


          > AFTER peeling off the pad?! you know your suppose to peel that off BEFORE you install the cpu, right?

          Ah, no. You're supposed to pull off the bit of tape that keeps it from sticking to other stuff and then squish it down on the CPU. Per the manufacturer's instructions, kind of thing.

          • ...to actually USE the wax thermal compound with the heat sink. If you're going to be using a "super" thermal grease (such as Arctic Silver and it's ilk), you DON'T want to use that pad at all- it interferes with the proper operation of the thermal grease because the wax-like compound of the thermal pad embeds itself into the cracks, etc. on the heatsink and contact pad of the CPU and acts more like a thermal insulator compared to the grease. Basically speaking, if there's a pad on your heat sink, you're

      • Re: Actually... (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        What's the point of buying exepnsive silver-based paste if 3C reduction is all that you will get?


        • > What's the point of buying exepnsive silver-based paste if 3C reduction is all that you will get?

          A couple of bucks and no more signals? What was I supposed to want?

    • I agree. I've repaired many home and car audio amplifiers and I've gone through probably a pint of heat sink compound over the last few years. I once bought a big toothpaste size tube of that GC brand heatsink compound and I only used about half of it before I had to throw it away. The stuff is runny and inconsistant, while the Radio Shack grease is expensive and only comes in little tubes, but flows evenly and doesn't drip.
    • They weren't talking about the relative performance between thermal compounds, they were talking about the actual performance of any common thermal compound.

      Sure, Radio Shack's thermal compound might be as good as any out there, but that doesn't stop it from being a pretty good insulator. It's just a little better than the air filling those gaps.

  • Help prevent crashing routers... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by LamerX ( 164968 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:33AM (#6586123) Journal
    Maybe this stuff can be put in all those crappy DSL modems and routers that freeze up due to overheating. It would be easier than modding the whole damn thing to pieces with fans and whatnot...

    • Re:Help prevent crashing routers... (Score:5, Informative)

      by VPN3000 ( 561717 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @05:48AM (#6586543)
      It actually will not help much. I've used both generic and that silver based Artic Gold (can't remember if that's the brand or not). I use MotherBoard Monitor to monitor temps on my XP/Game system which is equiped with a SLK-800 heatsink and 80mm fan.

      There is a 0 degree difference between using the sivler stuff and the generic goo. I've also swapped from the goo to silver paste on my old dual 700 when replaceing a processor. No measurable difference in heat/performance.

      Your best bet with those DSL routers:

      Find a good 486 heatsink/fan combo, mix a drop of silver compound with a very small drop of epoxy, then mount the sucker on your DSL router's CPU. Use a bench clamp or book (or some combination) to secure the heatsink/fan overnight while the compound hardens. The next morning, your DSL router should run nice and cool. Keep in mind, if you use too much epoxy in your mixture, that heatsink will not be coming off there. A lighter mix will result in something you can knock off there with the handle of a screwdriver if you ever need to get it off.

      I've found old 486 sinks and fans are very handy at cooling off just about anything they'll fit on except for peltier solutions.

      If the cost of $5 is prohibitive, check your closet for old computers and find your free parts there.

      • Maybe this stuff can be put in all those crappy DSL modems and routers that freeze up due to overheating.

        It actually will not help much.... There is a 0 degree difference between using the sivler stuff and the generic goo. I've also swapped from the goo to silver paste on my old dual 700 when replaceing a processor. No measurable difference in heat/performance.

        Come on, man, that's exactly the article's point! Like way down in, oh yes, the second paragraph when zzz said "Current high end pastes rang


    • Maybe this stuff can be put in all those crappy DSL modems and routers that freeze up due to overheating. It would be easier than modding the whole damn thing to pieces with fans and whatnot...

      Can you give us the names of the manufacturers of these devices? I've only had experience with a few DSL modems (mostly Westell) and a little SMC broadband router, and have never had heat-induced failure. My next router will also be an SMC, because I really liked this design. My next modem will be whatever I scr

  • don't believe the hype? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by BobTheLawyer ( 692026 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:33AM (#6586125)
    They seem to have just duplicated the inventor's press release - the article doesn't contain any independent evaluation of the substance whatsoever.

  • 33% (Score:4, Insightful)

    by gfody ( 514448 ) * on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:33AM (#6586127)
    of 0.004% that thermal paste actually makes a difference

  • I'll Take a Barrel -- Over to SCO (Score:5, Funny)

    by Nom du Keyboard ( 633989 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:43AM (#6586156)
    Give me a barrel of it to take over to SCO headquarters and hose those guys down to maybe cool them off.

    Thought about doing the same to the RIAA, but I'd need a whole tanker truck load at least there.

  • >"we'll all surely be thinking about putting it in our boxes"

    I won't be doing this. Such a think could void warranties. Stability and reliability is more important than speed IMHO - especially since I don't play games.

    If manufacturers start using this paste, and it doesn't deteriorate after 5 years, then that is different.

    Obviously it won't be used in resistors - as conductance is not very good in such components ;-)

    Mike

  • The Revolution (Score:5, Funny)

    by Biomechanoid ( 515993 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:44AM (#6586161)
    The Thermal Paste Revolution

    Oh you bet, it will be like 'before and after', a marking point in history. As in; I remember back in the days, before the revolution.

    Remember these days people, its one of those great turning points in history and you are part of it.
    • Oh, absoulutely. My favorite part:
      If this paste makes it to the market sometime soon, we'll all surely be thinking about putting it in our boxes.
      Sure, for sufficiently small definitions of "all of us." Because as soon as the definition expands to... uh... well, pretty much any of my friends, actually, nobody gives a shit.

  • Paste. (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:50AM (#6586175)
    You know, that's just perfect. Just yesterday I was looking at my Power Macintosh G4 and saying "You know, if there's one thing this computer's missing, it's paste. If only there were some way I could just take paste and smear it all over the inside of this computer."

    And now here we are!

    • Re:Paste. (Score:4, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01, 2003 @05:06AM (#6586433)
      You misunderstood something.

      It's not about applying that paste all over your computer - it has to applied to *special* parts in your computer in order to cool it down:

      The fan of your power supply unit, for example.

      It does a great job taking care that the temperature in your computer will not rise too high.

      1. Make sure that your computer is turned off !!!

      2. Just apply some of the paste (e.g. 10-15 table spoons) to the fan.

      3. No need to wait any longer. Turn that thing on again.

      4. Watch the great effect that this new thermal paste will have.

      You may also use the paste with water cooling systems. Just mix the water/paste 30/70 - don't worry about any strange noises.

      As said in another thread, tuning your computer might void your warranty - instead, you can still ask your PC dealer to do it for you (and remember: 10-15 table spoons, otherwise the effect of the paste will not "visible".)

    • Re:Paste. (Score:4, Interesting)

      by quigonn ( 80360 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @05:17AM (#6586467) Homepage
      Although is posting is moderated as funny, this guy is absolutely right. I think, all the cooling stuff that is put into x86-based PCs in these days is just the wrong way. Computers should be well-designed (I'm speaking of the hardware, not the case), and when CPU manufacturers can't produce CPUs that stay cool enough with only a passive cooler, then they shouldn't sell these CPUs. I mean, powerful computers can be built without this botch. For example, all the computers built by Apple, or the VAXstations that were built by DEC. VAXstations were pretty powerful machines (especially the VS4000 series), and they came without any passive coolers. Only the PSU had a fan, which was extremely silent. And the VAXstation was a much more powerful computer than a PC at the time they were built.

      • Re:Paste. (Score:5, Interesting)

        by Anonymous Coward on Friday August 01, 2003 @06:34AM (#6586653)
        Oh dear lord. You haven't heard a "Windtunnel" G4 at full howl, have you? ;)

        I have a QuickSilver G4 on my desk, and let me assure you, it is far from fanless. The Windtunnels (AKA "Quad Nostril") took it a step further.

        I agree that some current CPU designs are downright absurd (Intel so completely gave up on the concept of being able to cool their highly-clocked - over-clocked if you ask me - chips that they designed in a feature to slow down/turn off sections of the chip in order to lower temperatures), but passive cooling only gets you so much. I really doubt VAXstations could operate efficiently with a pair of 15,000rpm drives inside the case, which my QS handles with reasoanble aplomb (though I splurged on additional cooling - mostly a PCP&C external supply exhaust fan - to keep temps at reasonable levels).

        The last fanless Apple desktop computer I can think of were the 2nd-generation iMacs (the ones with completely clear sides, or flower-power, and whatever god-awful color scheme they came up with at the end). Everything else from their recent lineups, even portables, have had fans.

        Supposedly the G5s will feature quieter operation, by virtue of seperated thermal zones with different thermally-controlled fans exhausting air from each zone - they only spin as fast as that zone requires. To some extent, it is probably the wave of the future in this regard, in that increased thermal needs have butted up against all the buffont bettys tranquility requirements.

        But if another artist whines about how loud their 10,000+rpm drive is, and how their tuned-for-quiet-not-performance-operation IDE drive at home is quieter, I swear I'm gonna stuff a high-CFM 120mm fan in their pie-hole... and maybe a high-cfm 80mm fan in their corn chute.

        Nah. That'd be cruel.

  • Only marginally helpfull (Score:5, Interesting)

    by afidel ( 530433 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @02:52AM (#6586181)
    It's been true for some time that the thermal junction between the top of the chip and the heatsink isn't nearly as important as the internal heat disipation (sp?) of the chip. While a modern chip with a decent heatsink can feel merely warm to the touch the internal gate temperature can be aproaching bounderies where the thermal stress is actually damaging gates. This is one of several barriers keeping 3D memory chips from becoming reality (the other major one is cost of manufacturing a working chip of multiple layers, but even pie in the sky lab samples have problems because of heat disipation from the core of the stack.)

  • This is offtopic (Score:3, Informative)

    by teamhasnoi ( 554944 ) * <teamhasnoi@yahoo. c o m> on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:02AM (#6586211) Journal
    So mod away - Looking around that site, I saw lots of really interesting 'hacky' stuff that I used to see on /. all the time. (before linux was proved to be SCOs and the g5 laptops came out - okay even a year ago)

    In fact, it was ( /.ed to hell now ) one of the more techy-nerdy-geeky sites that I've seen for quite awhile. I'd love to see more, but now I'll have to wait for 2 days.

    I'm a subscriber - I pay for my right to bitch about /.

  • Or.. (Score:2)

    by rf0 ( 159958 )
    We could just all just do extreme coolingcooling [google.com]

    Rus

  • How adhesive is that paste? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Advocadus Diaboli ( 323784 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:08AM (#6586229)
    Working in a test lab for PCs I encountered one problem with heat conducting paste: Since Intel introduced the mPGA 478 housing for their CPUs the ZIF socket on the mainboard is much smaller than the heatsink above. That means, if the paste between processor and heatsink is too much adhesive it is like the processor is glued to the heatsink and every time you remove the heatsink (e.g. for changing the CPU) you pull out the processor from a closed ZIF socket! Ok, so far the processors survived but I don't think that this is nice anyway.

    • Re:How adhesive is that paste? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by aed ( 156746 ) * on Friday August 01, 2003 @07:40AM (#6586888)
      If possible, switch on the machine for a few minutes before removing the heatsink.
      This will heat the CPU and it will usually melt the thermal paste. It should now be easier to remove the heatsink from the cpu.
      • If possible, switch on the machine for a few minutes before removing the heatsink.
        This will heat the CPU and it will usually melt the thermal paste.

        Am I crazy, or should a paste designed to conduct heat not MELT when a non-excessive amount of heat is applied to it?
        • If it melts, it helps conduct heat between the two components more effectively. The more liquid a given material is made, the better it conducts heat. Just like resistors being more conductive when they are heated. In our Practical Circuits class we are taught about heat sinking and power dissipation in terms of voltage (temp diff), current (power flow), and resistance (temp diff/power flow) The moral of the story is...as long as it stays contained yes, it should melt.

  • Is it as good as vegemite? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by IvyMike ( 178408 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:12AM (#6586234)

    I have a tube of Arctic Silver 2 (yeah, I'm like two generations behind) but I'm not sure that I really needed it. This dude tried out several non-conventional thermal transfer compounds [dansdata.com], including vegemite.(!) When properly applied, there wasn't a huge difference between them. In fact, in the (extremely specific) conditions, the vegemite and toothpaste outperformed the Arctic Silver! (Obviously, you should read the article for details.)

    The article's point isn't that you should be using toothpaste; rather, it's that make sure you properly apply whatever thermal compound you do use, and don't expect miracles. No matter how effective your thermal transfer, you've still got to dump the heat somewhere. If you're running close to the edge of thermal failure, there are almost certainly other, much more effective cooling solutions. This new paste is probably a good thing, but don't expect miracles.

    • In fact, in the (extremely specific) conditions, the vegemite and toothpaste outperformed the Arctic Silver!

      While I'm not inclined to read the article, I'm hoping that the aforementioned test was the taste test.

  • Thermal Grease and AMD's Warranty (Score:5, Informative)

    by aardwolf204 ( 630780 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:12AM (#6586235)
    Of course we should not forget that Using thermal grease on your Athlon will void your warranty. [slashdot.org]
    • This is a plain and simple reason. Even though you can get better results from some third party thermal solutions, it voids your warranty to implement them so they don't have to replace a processor that ate it if YOU screwed up.

      If you follow AMD's recommendations for fans in your box, their included solution is typically sufficient.
    • Which is ridiculous since the thermal pads and heatsinks they ship with their processors won't keep the CPU under 65C under normal load.

      At least not on my Athlon. I replaced the heatsink with a monster and huge fan. Now I sleep well in my apartment since all the white noise drounds out my neighbors. =)

      Only problem is the A/C bill has gone up...

      And I'm not kidding... my room is 5-6 degrees warmer than the living room, even with a large fan pointed towards the top of my doorway to push the hot air out

  • But (Score:2)

    by Kelz ( 611260 )
    How does it compare to water cooling, and when would something like this become mainstream enough for chip-makers to build their hardware around it?

    Seems like a promising technology, just might take a while to get here.

    • Re:But (Score:2, Interesting)

      by CB-in-Tokyo ( 692617 )
      You still use Thermal Grease when water-cooling. The water block just replaces a heatsink. The biggest problem with thermal grease and water cooling is that you lack the vibration of the fan to help the grease settle properly into the tiny gaps, so it actually takes a couple of weeks to get a noticable change in temperature. Maybe this stuff would help, I don't know the /. effect seems to have cooked their server.

    • Re:But (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Psyko ( 69453 )
      Technologies like this are complementary to each other.

      As someone previously pointed out, one of the major problems facing device manufacturers is transferring the heat out of the die. When improvements are made in this area, then the problem will still be transferring the heat away from the die where it can be dissipated by however (water cooled slug, air cooled sink, etc. etc.) once the heat can be effectively moved away from the die-face at 99.999% efficiency there's still the issue of radiating the h
    • No, you can use it with water cooling. You always put thermal gunk goes between the water cooled plate and the processor anyway- this is just much better gunk.

  • Only on /. (Score:5, Funny)

    by RHIC ( 640535 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:21AM (#6586256)
    Only on Slashdot would you ever see the words "interesting" and "thermal paste" used together.

  • Cooling Methods (Score:4, Informative)

    by paulnuyu ( 539807 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:32AM (#6586279)
    The article on thermal paste is quite interesting, such advances are sure to aid in the cooling levels for the near future. However, I often wonder why there hasn't been much development in the way of devising viable (read: cheap) alternative cooling solutions (e.g water/fliud, air piping, effective passive cooling). It seems that the now archaic heatsink/fan just isn't cutting it anymore, at least down to a bearable level that is (the amount of noise my cpu fan creates is ridiculous).

    Part of this is the chip maker's fault, for running the chip too hot/fast. Likewise, part of the fault rests on the case/fan manufacturers, as the cases become increasingly smaller, dealing with cooling becomes harder, as there is less space to work in.

    It is getting to the point where I feel that my peace of mind with regards to noise is well worth the sacrifice of speed. After all, I don't need the full power of my cpu most of the time, just when compiling/rendering/encoding. The cpu just isn't the bottleneck anymore, and it's useless to continue in this speed race, not until the other system components catch up. Why doesn't the industry work together to create a better solution? It's high time I'm rid of the constant roar of these machines.

    • Cooling Technology (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Detritus ( 11846 )
      The cooling technology has been around for decades. Take a look at old Cray supercomputers or IBM ECL mainframes. The problem is that it has to be designed into the system from the beginning, not tacked on to an existing design.
    • Part of this is the chip maker's fault, for running the chip too hot/fast. Likewise, part of the fault rests on the case/fan manufacturers, as the cases become increasingly smaller, dealing with cooling becomes harder, as there is less space to work in.

      You left out one, teesny, weenst, ity bitty, (well, OK friggin' huge!) portion of the equation - the customer. If there's a demand for a faster chip, the manufacturer is going to make it. Your logic here is similar to blaming accidents on Ferrari for bui
    • I got an AMD barton OC'd to 2.2 int. clock and that wonderful heatsink with the big, brushless fan is damn-near silent.

      I think that people don't realize that their power supply may be the noisiest component in their PC! When you start trying to supply 400W from a small enclosure then tend to rachet up the cooling and they can be quite loud compared to a good case fan.

  • Who is going to use paste instead of solder? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by khaine ( 260889 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:34AM (#6586282)
    This seems a very odd comparison to me; when was the last time you soldered a heatsink to a hot component or used paste to assemble a circuit board? The use in chips seems a little suspect too..

    I can just see the warnings now. "Do not mount vertically or internal circuits will drip out!!!" :-)
    • Solder paste is commonly used (commercially) to manufacture circuit boards. You put a silk screen overlay on the board and squeegee the paste through the silk screen onto the pads of the board. You then have the pick and place machine put all the components onto the board. The board / goop / components then goes into an oven where the assembly is heated enough to cause the solder to "melt" and flow. Voila -- complete board.

      Of course, all of this is more or less automated...

      Oh, and although I have

  • Analysis (Score:5, Informative)

    by fven ( 688358 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:38AM (#6586296)
    This may help solve the problem that thermal compound applied badly is worse (in terms of temperature) than none at all.

    In a thermal compound we are seeking somethng that:
    (1) will conduct heat to the heatsink better than air
    (2) will remain inert under extended high temperature exposure
    (3) is non toxic (nice seeing as we have to deal with the stuff)

    It is difficult for a material to conduct heat better than air if (large or many) air bubbles are present between the two surfaces, trapped by the compound itself.

    So we all know how silicone performs, it meets 2 and 3 but there are some issues with 1, mainly because of the air bubble issue.

    Carbon black, polyehtylene glycol and ethyl cellulose are both non-hazardous and ethyl cellulose is only mildly hazardous (Material Safety Data Sheets www.merck.co.th, criterion 3 met)
    Particulate size is small (should lick the air bubble problem).
    Spreadability should be a-ok (ethyl cellulose is a molding compound.
    No polymerisation or other chemical reaction should occur (stable mixture, criterion 2 met).
    Carbon is a brilliant conductor in this form ( criterion 1 met)

    I think it'll work
    • The other point the article made was that particle size and hardness prevents the surfaces from mating properly. Since the carbon particles are so small and can be deformed they won't preclude this from happening.

  • Well I'm disappointed... (Score:3, Funny)

    by NanoGator ( 522640 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @03:46AM (#6586311) Homepage Journal
    "If this paste makes it to the market sometime soon, we'll all surely be thinking about putting it in our boxes."

    I was expecting a flurry of +3, Funnies over that line.

  • Myths about the use of thermal grease. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tombrown ( 673453 ) <tmcb1971NO@SPAMyahoo.com> on Friday August 01, 2003 @04:09AM (#6586350)
    About 10 years ago I was working on a product that used 200 Amp IGBT's for a traction drive. I spent about a month researching the thermal circuits used to cool these devices.

    The conclusion: The best thermal contact is metal to metal. The best way of acheiving this is by "lapping" the contact area's together with a fine abrasive. Once your have done this the application of a minute amount of thermal grease improves conductivity by less than 0.5%. We also discovered that applying more than a fine film or grease significantly decreased the conductivity (10% or more).

    Lay off the grease!

    • Tried it (Score:3, Funny)

      by Hoi Polloi ( 522990 )
      I lapped the heatsink mirror smooth then I lapped the CPU until bare metal circuitry was exposed and put them together but now it won't boot up. Please advise.
    • Generally true (also from production experience) although using compounds high in metal (like silver) generally produced slightly better results. Production costs generally don't support the small differences though, So you have to go with the combination of what works and is cheapest.
  • these guys [reactivenanotech.com] will "solder" your heatsink to your substrate. To be released in 2004.

    I found this in this article:
    A better thermal interface, 70.0W/mK [theinquirer.net]

  • 9 out of 10 dentists agree (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    When you brush with thermal paste you can overclock your mind by 11.5%

  • ...manufacturing, but can anyone tell me why they can't just make the things (CPU) bigger? If they increased the size of the actual little, nearly microscopic components that must be inside, maybe it wouldn't be such an issue. Like I said, I don't know squat about how they are made, but when I look at them I think, 'of course their hot as hell, it's all packed into this little silver square for christ's sake!

  • Other uses (Score:2, Funny)

    by Ed Avis ( 5917 )
    I predict that this thermal paste will be useful for putting down one's pants. In order to conduct heat away from any hot grits present.
  • ... as termal conductivity is really not that important in termal grease. It has to be applied in a very thin layer anyway. One of the reasons is to avoid "pumpout" when it gets heated up. And as long as it does not reach copper in termal conductivity (something solder is not even close to, so this is a red herring), termal reasons also speak strongly against using thick layers. Far more important is long-term stability, non-conductivity and chemical non-agressiveness.

    This nonsense reminds me of part of th
  • ZZZ is running an article about an interesting new thermal paste which surpasses even solder in thermal conductance by 33 percent.

    You mean I can unsolder the heatsink off my AMD now?

    Well... I really don't have to do much for that, it'll just pull off on its own after a couple minutes of use.

  • Dammit! Not another one! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @08:56AM (#6587519) Journal
    You know, I don't WANT another cooling method... I don't want processor makers to be able to squeeze another few MHz out of their processors for one simple reason... They run too damn hot already!

    I say this for two important reasons:

    #1. More heat happens to mean that much more power is being wasted. Here in CA, electricity is expensive, and my electric bill doubled when I hooked-up my new system. Now I'm paying more for the electricity to keep my computer running 24/7 (yes, it needs to be running) than I am for my 1.5M/768kbps DSL... That's just so very wrong.

    #2. I live in a big damn desert... That means temperatures are regularly very close to 130F degrees... It seems like 9 months out of the year temperatures are above 100F, and keeping a system cool when temperatures are that high is not easy. I've been forced to install a swamp cooler near my computers, and although that does a good job of cooling, it is louder than the most annoying computer fan you've ever heard, so it's not a plesant solution. Don't talk to me about water cooling/heat pipes becasue they only conduct the heat out of the computer, leaving it to heat up the building. Don't talk about sucking the heat outdoors, because it's so hot outdoors that the computers would be overheating in no time.

    Personally, I would love to be using a fast PPC machine, but the price is just prohibitive... I'd have to be using my current Athlon XP 2000 for years before the electric bill would ammount to the inital price of an equivalently fast PPC system, and that wouldn't be taking into account that the PPC system would still be using up 1/4-1/2 the same ammount of electricity.

    Frankly, I would like to see Laptop computer processors in desktop systems. That would be a decent compromise, that would keep things cool, without having something that is incredibly slow (eg. Via C3).

    (Oh yeah, and: #3. Global warming crap, blah blah blah.)
  • The famouse Artic Silver [arcticsilver.com] But I guess thermal paste has it's uses (too.)
  • It comes as the expense of higher power consumption. Just because we have a better way of dealing with the excess heat doesn't solve the basic problem. It's like saying "I found a way to put an even BIGGER engine in my SUV!" Is that a good thing?

    If we ever needed a revolution in CPU manufacturing and design, now is it. It might be optical, it might be something else, but bring it on.
  • Here is a heatsink material [tsheatronics.co.jp] that is 2000W/m*K (4.8 times that of silver, 5.1 times of copper). It's a heatpipe-like material, but in sheet form. It would be ideal for laptops, or as the web page says, sushi.

  • I'm waiting for the next generation of thermal paste that's spermacidal and fights tooth decay.

  • Can't help it (Score:3, Funny)

    by Tomster ( 5075 ) on Friday August 01, 2003 @11:12AM (#6588892) Homepage Journal
    "Second, the data tables indicate a strong pressure bias - increases in pressure lead to great increases in thermal conductance:"

    I can see it now, overclockers looking for ways to increase the pressure applied to the heatsink/die interface. Here's a future post from an overclocking forum:

    "Hi peeps, I'm trying to put more pressure on my heat sink and need some advice. I've fabricated some titanium supports for the chip socket and motherboard with holes threaded on all four sides for even pressure, and welded supports onto the heat sink. But I'm not sure what setting to use on my torque wrench when I put the bolts on. Here are some pics of my setup (url1, url2, url3). Any thoughts?"

    -Thomas

  • Hazardous material! (Score:2, Informative)

    by entropy_uc ( 146475 )
    I strongly reccomend that anyone thinking of using this material request an MSDS first.

    We were evaluating some material like this and it turned out to be composed of 30% Class 1 carcinogen. Would you store PCBs in your home?
  • It just transfers the heat to the heat sink. You'll still need a massive heatsink and massive fan to pull the heat away from the heatsink into the air. And then you have to deal with all that heat lingering inside your case so you'll need a way to get it out of there along with the heat from the powersupply, chipset, ram, video and sound cards.

    Better pastes is good, but shouldn't they also be trying to increase performance while also decreasing power requirements?
  • How hard is it to make this stuff?

    So, the mad overclocker buys a tube of Dow #111 and a bottle of Darko. Spends a little time with a popsicle stick and a film canister and viola! Carbon black heat sink compound.

    If you're already hacking your hardware for faster clock speeds, what's to keep you from rolling your own heatsink compound?

    I mean aside from the fact that your wife will kill you when she sees black fingerprints all over every surface in the house.

    Are overclockers "audiophiles", buying ano

  • what are the fastest fan-less CPUs on the market ? Anything above 1Gz that can go with only a heatsink and no fans like old 486s ?

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