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Handhelds Hardware

DoCoMo Will Launch Fuel-Cell Mobile Phones By 2005 170

Posted by timothy from the sooner-rather-than-later dept.
prostoalex writes "Japan's major telecom provider NTT DoCoMo plans to use fuel cells for its 3G phones. 'Users of cellphones with a fuel-cell battery would carry a cigarette lighter-type fuel container to refuel the battery', says Reuters."
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DoCoMo Will Launch Fuel-Cell Mobile Phones By 2005 More

DoCoMo Will Launch Fuel-Cell Mobile Phones By 2005

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  • For the user to? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 07, 2003 @04:41PM (#6139971)
    Will that fuel also be compatible with the user? For internal use that is... ;-)

  • Wow (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Zeromous ( 668365 )
    ..just another way my cell-phone company can rape my wallet. propietary fuel cells....yay

    • Re:Wow (Score:1, Offtopic)

      by rkz ( 667993 )
      just like 3G! what a fucking rip off, bluetooth area networks all the way I set one up around my house for 100m, so pda users can get their daily dose of goatse and it allows me to browse the net off my phone while I'm at neighbours houses.. Very funny to poison DNS and make hotmail visitors visit a fake page which submits their email adress to porn sites transparently before logging them into their inbox!

      • I doubt you mean Bluetooth, which has an effective range of a few feet (eight IIRC). 802.11? I'm sorry about being so anal, but if you don't know which protocal you are using, then my bet is that your network is not that secure (ergo maybe you should not allow public access).

        • Re:Wow (Score:3, Informative)

          by moonbender ( 547943 )
          Actually, there are three classes [palowireless.com] of Bluetooth devices, with different power levels and accordingly different effective ranges: class 3 with 1 mW has a range of about 10 cm, class 2 with 2.5 mW has a range of about 10 metres, and finally class 1 with 100 mW has a range of 100 metres.

          HTH.
          • I still doubt that he is using bluetooth. The transmitter on the accessing device would also need to transmit 100 metres. That would be one hefty PDA! The more common, farther reaching, cheaper, and faster network is built on 802.11. Thanks for the information, though. I did not know that bluetooth could be extended that far.

            • Re:Wow (Score:2)

              by rkz ( 667993 )
              oh really?

              Feat your eyes on this [ebuyer.com]

              My phone does work fine from around 100m away I don't know how or why but it does the trick maybe my dongle has got a very sensitive antenna or something who knows.
              the software I use for this is Windows XP [microsoft.com] running a bluetooth stack by widcomm and their driver's Network Access profile.
          • Ten centimeters? Seriously? That's almost useless.

  • On Man! Carry a can of lighter fluid like stuff? (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Jackson ( 87371 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @04:45PM (#6139993)
    Hmmmm. I am kinda of taken back at the thought of carrying a can of flammable (I assume) stuff to recharge my phone?

    How may days / hours do I get on a "can"?

    Jackson
  • Their new product?

    Batteries shapped like Zippo lighters.

  • This is cool (Score:5, Funny)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @04:46PM (#6139997)
    Users of cellphones with a fuel-cell battery would carry a cigarette lighter-type fuel container to refuel the battery.

    A propane tank with a shoulder strap and you're good to go for 10 years.

  • Hype & Buzzword (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 07, 2003 @04:47PM (#6140002)
    This is entirely motivated by hype and the desire to use a buzzword.

    Isn't it far easier and cheaper to just to plug the phone in occasionally and carry a spare battery if you have to?

    Energy storage in fuel cells is actually quite expensive, especially compared to electricity. The main advantage is far longer battery life. But for phones, which last for days anyway, why?

    • Re:Hype & Buzzword (Score:3, Insightful)

      by spydir31 ( 312329 )
      Another benefit is that the consumer now needs to regulary pay for the fuel,
      thus creating a constant source of income for the companies
      • Erm, aren't they already getting a constant source of income in the way of, say, phone bills?

        Maybe it'll be like safety razors -- the phones themselves won't cost much, but the fuel will cost tons.

        -gleam
      • Considering it uses regular methanol I imagine anybody could sell refills, unless they patent the refilling system or something silly.

        Gareth
        • They never said that, I was assuming they'd use Hydrogen, though.
          and there's nothing stopping them from making a trick refill system, stating safety (which'll probably get broken quickly, like the printer refills, but still...)

    • Re:Hype & Buzzword (Score:5, Insightful)

      by badasscat ( 563442 ) <basscadet75@@@yahoo...com> on Saturday June 07, 2003 @05:35PM (#6140154)
      Isn't it far easier and cheaper to just to plug the phone in occasionally and carry a spare battery if you have to?

      In a word, no. Have you ever looked at the prices for cel phone batteries? They're generally only slightly less than the cost of the phone itself. For my $99 phone, a spare battery is $80. Some batteries are even more expensive than that.

      And having to plug the phone in occasionally? Do you understand the concept of a mobile phone? How are you going to plug in a phone on your average train, plane, or automobile? (If you can do it, you generally need yet another special attachment, such as a cigarette lighter adapter. This basically defeats your point, which is that it's simpler just to plug in once in a while. It isn't.)

      Energy storage in fuel cells is actually quite expensive, especially compared to electricity. The main advantage is far longer battery life. But for phones, which last for days anyway, why?

      I suppose it's pointless to tell a Slashdot reader to RTFA. Battery life on 3G phones is not very long - this is their main drawback and the reason why adoption rates have been low. Lots of people have been saying it's going to take a major breakthrough in battery technology to really improve the situation for small, high-tech devices like 3G phones and even current laptop computers - fuel cell technology is that breakthrough. Eventually, we'll all be using fuel cells for our portable devices. May take 20 years for the switchover to be complete, but it'll happen. It has to, given how power-hungry we've become.

      • Re:Hype & Buzzword (Score:4, Insightful)

        by gad_zuki! ( 70830 ) * on Sunday June 08, 2003 @01:21AM (#6141688)
        >. For my $99 phone, a spare battery is $80. Some batteries are even more expensive than that.

        That's standard cell phone pricing. They subsidize the cost of the phone with contacts, promotions with manufacturers, etc and also heavily mark-up accessories like batterys, cases, etc. Worse, you usually have to buy accessories retail so there's another mark-up.

        Don't think this kind of pricing will magically go away. They're still going to mark-up to whatever the market can bear. Currently, what protections do we have the cells phone companies and laptop companies won't mark-up their fuel cell carts? None. There isn't some standard cartridge they're going to use, so it'll probably end up just like the inkjet market - cheap to get in, but not so cheap to continue. The ink may cost only a few pennies, but the pricing scheme will determine what we really pay.

        There are third generation wireless devices out there and the battery power isn't bad at all. My Sidekick uses GPRS all day and I can almost get two days worth of use out of it.

        Personally, I don't think they should design past 18 hours per charge. That's a whole waking day and people might as well get into the habit or recharging every night or have an extra battery handy if they want 3G tech.

    • But for phones, which last for days anyway, why?

      Did you read the article? "DoCoMo's 3G service, which offers video conferencing and speedy access to the Web, had until recently met a cool reception due mainly to the poor battery life of its handsets."

    • A better solution (Score:4, Interesting)

      by Burz ( 138833 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:20PM (#6140314) Homepage Journal
      Instead of carrying around an ultra-expensive fuel cell outfit, try this instead:

      1) Get a small AA or AAA battery pack with the same voltage rating and power connector as your phone

      2) Fill it with Titanium-Alkaline or Lithium photo cells (very high-capacity compared to recharables)

      3) Keep this on hand for backup power just like you would the tech-fetishist hydrogen tank. If after 6-36 months you run low on backup power, just buy more batteries at any nearby store that sells cameras, etc. If you noramlly keep your internal battery charged, then the external cells could last you for years!

      Savvy people have done this with camcorders, phones , PDAs and even laptops for years. You can even get AA/AAA packs shaped like the mfg.'s rechargable units that fit right onto your device.
    • The big main benefit of fuel cells (especially in devices like phones/pdas/laptops or there are the same thing anymore) are two, and an obvious two:

      Your %^&*ing batteries don't wear out and have to be replaced, frequently at a cost of more than something new, meaning some landfill waste, and the dead batteries themselves are mucho icky. This also means the devices have a much longer practical use lifespan,so they won't be replaced as often, which will force manufacturers to emphasize quality & reli
  • Hook the fuel cell to your car gas tank and you can talk forever.
  • So now my cell phone will cause more than noise pollution?
    • No [fuelcells.org] They dont contain many moving parts if any, compressed air and fuel from the "tank" should produce enough power for a phone without any pumps or anything
    • So now my cell phone will cause more than noise pollution?

      It already does, but you don't see it. Your phone uses electricity that is produced in a power plant that most likely generates smoke or nucler waste. Apart if you live in a country that is well-equipped in renewable energy that is.

      With the new fuel cell cell phone (god that's odd to write this), you just move the pollution problem in your pocket, *and* you guarantee that it'll generate 100% fossil fuel pollution, instead of 95%, 90% ... whatever
    • Fuel cells usually use hydrogen for a fuel. This combines with oxygen and Voila! Electrons are stripped off and used to power the phone. The only "pollution" is water. I'm not saying that fuel cells are the best power source for phones, but that electricity that you are using now comes from a fossil fuel plant most likely. So even now you are causing pollution by using your computer! You evil terrorist! Hey Homeland Security! I think I found Osama!!!

  • Just what I need. (Score:3, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Saturday June 07, 2003 @04:50PM (#6140016)
    Methane two or three inches away from my nose. Another brilliant idea from DoCoMo.

    • Re:Just what I need.-Goat man. (Score:1, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      "Methane two or three inches away from my nose. Another brilliant idea from DoCoMo."

      **taps shoulder**

      Uh, chief. That's not a cellphone.

  • Smaller Phones (Score:3, Funny)

    by Malicious ( 567158 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @04:56PM (#6140034)
    With a phone the size of a Quarter, I shudder to think how hard it'll be to handle the ripcord on a fuel powered phone...

  • Is it not dangerous ? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @04:58PM (#6140043)
    I had an accident with my bicycle the other day : I landed on my trusted Alcatel cell phone and it splintered into a million pieces. I hate to think what would have happened if the phone contained flamable liquid or gas under pressure.

    Then again, I also landed on $.50 my gas lighter, which was in the same pocket as my busted phone : *it* decided against breaking apart and cracked one of my ribs instead. So I guess the fuel cell phone has a chance to be safe, but still ...

    Also, doesn't such a device emit CO2 and/or water in the process of generating electricity ? where do the exausts go ?
    • Obviously the exhaust will go into the safest place possible, in this case the user's pants. :)
    • So much for all the bitching about carrying around a potentially lethal fuel cell bomb. Your typical cigarette lighter has the explosive force of a stick of dynamite. It's even kept under pressure, for pete's sake. Ever thrown one in the campfire while out camping?
      • Force of a stick of dynamite? I think not. If that was true, all terrorists would be using lighters instead of sticks of dynamyte. Just trying blowing up some rock with a lighter, let me know what it does.
      • To get any amount of explosive power out of say a bic lighter, you'd have to empty it into a carefully sized airtight container to get the fuel/air mixture right.

        This is why cars rarely blow up like in the movies.

    • Not that dangerous (Score:4, Insightful)

      by xtal ( 49134 ) on Sunday June 08, 2003 @12:12AM (#6141463)
      People forget that the lithium ion cells they use all the time - cell phones, notebooks - can cause real injury if they go ary, too. There's a large energy density in those cells, and large energy densities mean capability for disaster. Overcharging, shorting, physically deforming, any number of things could cause a charged lithium ion cell to catch fire or explode.

      If you'd carry a lighter with you, they're certainly going to be no more dangerous. Likely a good deal safer, even.

  • Water? (Score:2, Interesting)

    by ccevans ( 669222 )
    The article here did not give very much technical information. What type of fuel cell is being used? Hydrogen? If so, what do they plan to do with the water created? Batteries in cell phones are nice because they don't create any waste products when used. I don't see how a cell phone would be able to use a fuel cell without it being very bulky - it would have to have space for the water, and space for the hydrogen. Furthermore, the user would have to remember to empty it.

  • So now we can look forward to (Score:5, Funny)

    by blamanj ( 253811 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @05:01PM (#6140052)
    ...people holding up their cell phones at rock concerts?

  • Fuel Cell power... (Score:5, Informative)

    by bad_fx ( 493443 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @05:02PM (#6140053) Journal
    Everyone who's asking about the potential battery life/ polution from/ etc the fuel cells might like to read this article in scientific american. [sciam.com] It's pretty old but gives a fair idea of what the technology involves. And heres a couple [go.com] more. [sciencedaily.com]

    Basically they have the potential for much longer battery life (magnitudes greater than lithium) and produce water and C02 as waste products. and cheap vodka could potentially be used for the fuel :)
  • Oh this is mad - fuel cells are a wonderful idea - but to have to have refills?! Oh please - can the lot of them and send the guys back to the research lab until they can make them rechargeable.
    • I think I'm missing your meaning here. Don't "refills" and "recharching" kind of mean the same thing in respect to fuel cells? Or are you implying that you'd want to be able to plug your fuel cell into an electrical source some how to recharge/refuel it? Would'nt that kind of defeat the purpose? Clue me in.
    • but to have to have refills?! Oh please - can the lot of them and send the guys back to the research lab until they can make them rechargeable.

      You are obviously using a different definition of rechargeable than i am.

      The battery has a source of energy, when it runs out, you can replace the fuel without getting an entirely new battery. It's rechargeable.

      Perhaps you think something is only rechargeable if you can plug it into a wall? I don't know about you, but most people i know don't have hydrogen outle

  • That's just great! Now when I honk and politely wave (the international hand sign for "your # 1" of course) at the soccer Mom driving 40 mph on the freeway in front of me whilst applying her make-up and talking on her cell phone, she'll be able to immediately retalliate by tossing her handy fuel cell communication grenade at me through the sun roof on her 5 mpg SUV!

    What's next? Kids running around with self pumping Super Soakers powered by napalm!!?!?

    I tried to control myself...I swear!
    • we all know children have no access to the anarchist's cookbook anymore now that libraries are filtered ;)

  • I would hope that a larger version of the same idea would become avalible for laptops. I get around an 1hour on my battery. It's not much use on a longer train journey or when your on the move during the day.

    Also I have known them pack up in a long meeting.

    Whilst you have to basicaly be plugged in all the time you use them they are not that mobile a solution.

    I had been hoping that freeplay [freeplay.net], who make the wind up radios would lauch something after an article I read some time ago where a laptop solution

  • Except for wet pockets, this sounds pretty cool. I know I'm not the only one who has too many chargers... Ugh. Now if they could make a fuel cell that I could plug in any device into... That'd be cool. Forget searching for the ONE outlet in a whole airside.
    • Batteries come in standard sizes like AA and D. They're designed to plug into any device. It's just these cell phone and notebook computer that want to rip off their customers by forcing them to buy proprietary sizes. My main criteria in picking my PDA was one that took ordinary batteries; not the internal rechargables that some have. I got 2 sets NiMH batteries for it for $10 and that's been a lot more useful than having to charge the PDA in a proprietary cradle.

      Jason
      ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
      • What kind of PDA do you have? Mine can be recharged in the cradel OR via the power adapter alone. Plus the battery is removeable. So all you have to do is carry either the adapter and or a spare battery around with you.

        Much more convienent then hoping your near some place that will sell fuel cell refills. And why the hell would someone want to PAY to recharge their device everytime it needs recharching?
        • Handspring Visor deluxe. Except for a color display and slightly newer version of palmOS, there's still no PDA I'd rather have.

          How much did your spare battery cost? As I said, my two sets were $10. That way I always have one charging and one in the Palm. I also use the alkalines that came with for when the ones in it die. After over a year, they're still more than 90% full.

          Charging the palm from the cradle is useless because I don't leave my computer on when I'm not using it. The power adapter is
          • My pda is also my cell phone. www.kyocerasmartphone.com Its a Kyocera 7135. It cost me $500 at the time that I bought it and I've been able to get two spare batteries, one for $35 cause I was in a rush and later on another for $15.

            Due to it being a phone I really have to charge it every night. My previous smartphone, the Kyocera 6035 could go almost an entire week without needing to be recharged but thats because it had a monochrome screen. Man am I glad I have color now.

            Ebay is a good source for cheap 3r
      • On the other hand, my three most recent PDA purchases were made because I was quite sick of not having a fresh set of AAAs lying around when my PDA decided to run out of juice.

  • more info (Score:4, Interesting)

    by wilgamesh ( 308197 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @05:25PM (#6140117) Homepage
    The reuters story was a little short on info. FuelCellWorks [fuelcellsworks.com] has some more info.

    I think some people think the idea of refueling is a bit arcane sounding, but the point of fuel cells is the higher energy density and the somewhat increased flexibility we have in creating new technologies to exploit the form of the energy. Batteries haven't improved by much in many many years of research.

    According to FuelCellWorks, the DoCoMo phone will have up to 300 hrs functioning time. This is an improvement on my current cell phone, which lasts about a week. Furthermore, the use of little canisters for refueling is pretty much like carrying around a spare battery. It gets around the recharge problem. If I'm in a rush, I don't want to have to stick my phone into the power socket for half an hour.

    At some point, I think we won't need to refuel. DoCoMo or someone else can make a device that will use electricity to regenerate from the fuel cell waste products back into fuel. Highly inefficient, but convenient when you run out of your little canisters

    • I would be perfectly happy with a little hand crank generator to recharge the batteries in my cell phone. You could probably even do it while talking. But nooooo, all this "technology" is really just a way to consume more and more resources in new and exciting ways. Oh, how liberated we will be when we don't have to wait for our cellphone batteries to recharge! THANK YOU MR SONY! Now my nightmare of waiting for the battery to charge, or (gasp) having to purchase a second battery can finally end!

      And yes
      • It's always amusing how "human power" advocates always forget that turning a little hand crank enough to get useful power takes a lot of energy to. Tricky old thermodynamics laws.
  • To kill people who use cell phones in their car.. wait a minute. Maybe this is good.

  • What about taking it on a plane? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Esion Modnar ( 632431 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @05:28PM (#6140130)
    Don't they screen for flammable containers, especially under pressure?

    On a related note (gee-wizz tech that has drawbacks), those new PDA's and cell phones with builtin cameras: you can't take those into secure or otherwise classified facilities. Something to think about if your travels take you thither.

    • Not sure if it counts, but I take at least one, sometimes 2 or 3 disposable butane lighters (Bic, etc) on US commercial flights all the time. They're under pressure and pretty combustable. Try running over one in a car or just footbal spiking one on the cement sometime.

      I smoke (yeah, yeah, I know), so I know I took one on a flight around 2 weeks after 9/11 without it being mentioned or questioned by security. As a matter of fact, I'd never even thought of that being an issue until this thread. On that no
      • Yeah, and I used to take a pocket knife with a 2 inch blade on planes (before 9/11) all the time. And nary a glance from the guards.

        And get this, on one commuter flight into DC, we passed directly over the Pentagon going into the airport.

        By the by, didn't that "shoe bomber" use a lighter to try to light his shoes? I remember there was a much closer look at peoples' shoes after that, but I don't know if there was anybody looking at lighters...

        Oh, how times have changed...

    • On a related note (gee-wizz tech that has drawbacks), those new PDA's and cell phones with builtin cameras: you can't take those into secure or otherwise classified facilities. Something to think about if your travels take you thither.

      If it's a classified facility, chances are you can't bring a PDA or cell phone in there, period.

  • hmm (Score:4, Funny)

    by inertia187 ( 156602 ) * on Saturday June 07, 2003 @05:28PM (#6140135) Homepage Journal
    ...fuel-cell battery would carry a cigarette lighter-type fuel container...

    "Hey buddy, can I bum a charge?"
  • Fuel Cell Powered Laptops...

    What premium would you pay for a Laptop or PDA you can recharge in a snap ?
  • So, in addition to MP3 players, FM radios, digital cameras, and voice recorders, phones will now also have lighters?
  • Fuel cells produce CO2 and H2O. This is fine for cars which already leak out all kinds of nasty chemicals. But I don't think cell phones will sell well if they start peeing the user.
  • My 6310i does _18_ days on one battery - and spare batteries are £18 ($25 or so?).

    I assume this is for people who, unlike me, don't use their phones only for data calls, and can't carry a spare battery in their laptop case or with their PDA.

    Ah well, new gadgets are always good, and I'd love to get more than 3 hours out of my laptop as well - I'm sure I can hook something up to feed one off the other.
  • I know that there's no combustion involved, but the reaction that takes place certainly evolves some heat. I think even the water released is in its gaseous form. The question is, how hot will the fuel cell get under normal use?
    I know thatI wouldn't like something scalding in my pocket.

    • Re:How hot? (Score:2, Informative)

      by gdarklighter ( 666840 )
      Actually, fuel cells are remarkably efficient. I have seen specs on some fuel cells that list 90% efficiency, while I've seen most listed between 40 and 60 percent. Not very much heat produced at all.

  • Won't it suck when... (Score:3, Funny)

    by theantipode ( 664138 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:02PM (#6140234)
    ... your phone doesn't pass emissions tests?
  • YES!

    Now instead of being able to plug in my cell phone and recharge it for FREE, I can now PAY for a fuel cell recharge! WOO HOO!

    And instead of the power being conviently in any place where there's an outlet I now get to worry about finding places to BUY fuel cell refills and making sure I have ENOUGH ON HAND at any given time so I'm not ASS OUT OF LUCK!

    I'm so glad these fuel cell companies have relieved me of the misery of plugging my phone in every other day. I mean that was SOOOO hard. And its not lik

  • "Hello, 911????!!!!..." (Score:4, Funny)

    by psyconaut ( 228947 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @06:39PM (#6140370)
    ....I'd like to report a fire...yes, it's my cellphone....please come quick.... *HAND BURNING*....quick, I said!!!!!.... *DIALTONE* ;-)

    -psy
  • is a Soviet made nuclear reactor for my cell-phone. I dont care if I had have a truck for the battery, I would still own. "I'm sorry our conversion was interrupted, but I had a nuclear melt-down". It would sure beat whining about my Nokia having a stand-by time of 5 hours after one year of using it. Just get some nice uranium and keep the cellie on for 150.000 years.

  • From disposable batteries to disposable cartridges (Score:4, Interesting)

    by aquarian ( 134728 ) on Saturday June 07, 2003 @07:36PM (#6140574)
    Now that we've moved to rechargeable batteries for everything, they're not making as much money selling us disposable ones. I guess getting us hooked on disposable fuel cell cartridges is a way to make up the deficit.

    Of course, there's no technical reason we couldn't refill our own cartridges with methanol, but like wiht inkjet cartridges, they'll probably put chips in them or something to keep us from doing that. Flammability? Safety? Bah... it's about money, the old razor blade business model.

  • Fuel hrmmm. So (Score:2, Interesting)

    by POds ( 241854 )
    wheres the exhaust go?
  • Cost of new (top of range) mobile phone ~JPY35,000
    Cost of same phone 1 year later ~JPY5,000
    Cost of new battery for same phone ~JPY6,000

    If DoCoMo make a new plugin-type battery it will need to be for the whole range or people won't buy new phones!
  • Flammible fuel for mobile phones? Why not skip the middle man and develop a charging system where we rub a glass rod through a swath of cat's fur?

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