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Hardware

Blue-Laser DVD Formats Wars 224

Posted by CmdrTaco from the can't-we-all-just-get-along dept.
killmore notes a story running on ZDNet talking about incompatible blue laser formats of Blue-Laser DVDs which can store 36GB of data. The new format is from Toshiba & NEC and boasts backwards compatibility with the current standards for DVDs.
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Blue-Laser DVD Formats Wars More

Blue-Laser DVD Formats Wars

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  • Comment removed (Score:4, Funny)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:33PM (#5948016)
    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  • Article Text (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Toshiba, NEC see blue in DVD future
    By Richard Shim
    CNET News.com
    May 12, 2003, 11:39 AM PT
    URL: http://zdnet.com.com/2100-1103-1001033.html

    Toshiba and NEC are demonstrating a new DVD recording technology that promises a significantly higher storage capacity without a major investment in new production facilities.

    The Japanese companies will present details of their blue-laser format, called Advanced Optical Disc, this week at the Optical Data Storage 2003 conference in Vancouver, British Columbia. AOD is base

  • yeah but what we really want to know is (Score:3, Funny)

    by peculiarmethod ( 301094 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:34PM (#5948022) Journal
    when is someone going to post how to exchange the amber/yellow led on front for a blue/red led?

  • mysterious future (Score:4, Funny)

    by sweeney37 ( 325921 ) * <.mikesweeney. .at. .gmail.com.> on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:34PM (#5948030) Homepage Journal
    I see... I see...

    VHS vs. Beta II: The Search for More Money

    Mike

  • Frustrating (Score:2, Funny)

    by plexxer ( 214589 )
    killmore notes a story running on ZDNet talking about incompatible blue laser formats of Blue-Laser DVDs which can store 36GB of date.

    I hate it when I'm in the middle of a date and I have to swap discs...

  • 36GB of date (Score:5, Funny)

    by stratjakt ( 596332 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:35PM (#5948040) Journal
    Thousands of slashbots stare at each other in bewilderment.

    "What's a date?"

  • Great (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jandrese ( 485 ) * <kensama@vt.edu> on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:36PM (#5948055) Homepage Journal
    Just what the DVD medium needs, more freaking standards. Heck, last time I went into my local WorstBuy to pick up a pack of DVD-RW media (only wanted a couple) all they had was rows and rows of DVW+R discs and tons of empty shelf space for the DVD-R stuff. Does this mean we're going to have to start choosing between multiple Blue standards as well? Is anybody else tired of having multiple (completely identical feature wise) discs to choose from? Is this not lunacy?

    • Re:Great (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Jason1729 ( 561790 )
      Is anybody else tired of having multiple (completely identical feature wise) discs to choose from? Is this not lunacy?

      I'm still waiting for there to one standard for DVD?R before I buy. It sounds like by the time there is a single standard for the 4.7G discs, it will be a moot point anyway because I'll just switch to waiting for a 36G standard.

      Jason
      ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]

      • Re:Great (Score:3, Informative)

        by Martin Blank ( 154261 )
        This is one of the reasons the Sony DRU500 drive is doing so well that they can barely keep it in stock. It reads and writes all four major recording standards (only DVD-RAM is not supported for writing, not sure about reading), so for $300, it's not a bad deal.
        • The problem with that is that it's Sony, and they make the rest of the RIAA and MS look pro-fair use.

          I'm very tempted to a MZ-NE410 minidisc player. It's $120 at costco with an extra 5-pack of media, which is incredibly cheap. The only thing in the "con" column is that it's Sony, so there are silly DRM features that ruin it.

          Jason
          ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]
    • ...Heck, they can't even get reasonable interoperability with CD media.

      Everyone has all these superstitions and voodoo about which dye colors and media types and brands and what speed to record at, and the plain fact is that it is not at all rare to find that a CD you've burned in a pretty-darn-new burner can't be read in someone else's pretty-darn-new drive. Either the standards are no good or the manufacturers aren't following them.

      And it was only a few months ago that it transpired that you could burn
      • And it was only a few months ago that it transpired that you could burn out the laser in a LOT of DVD-RW drives simply by inserting a new kind of medium

        Actually it was the drive motor, not the laser.

        And wasn't it HP that promised that their DVD-RW drives would be compatible with DVD+RW media via a firmware upgrade... and then reneged on the promise?

        Yes, and that's what you get for buying a drive that uses a standard that wasn't approved by the DVD Forum. That's why I went with a DVD-R/RW drive a

  • I remeber the first format wars (Score:5, Insightful)

    by gpinzone ( 531794 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:36PM (#5948059) Homepage Journal
    Toshiba wanted dual layer and Sony (I think) wanted to standardize on flippers. Thank goodness they comprimized and kept both.
  • I doubt even full-screen video of every date the Slashdot community has been on would amount to 36 GB. :) ba-da-boom! hey!

  • What a paradox! My mind is spinning! (Score:5, Funny)

    by L. VeGas ( 580015 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:37PM (#5948067) Homepage Journal
    An incompatible format that boasts backwards-compatability.
  • why does everything has to be backward compatible? I think we spend too much time making something backward compatible, while we could have used the same time making new innovations.

    about 3 yrs back i was working on a 3D renderer, and instead of implementing a new file format, i was trying to store in a old format. i dont know why???

    • Re:backward compatibility (Score:5, Insightful)

      by gpinzone ( 531794 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:44PM (#5948140) Homepage Journal
      Because if you don't, people won't buy your hardware. IBM vs. Apple, Clones vs. IBM PS/2, PlayStation 2 vs. Dreamcast, US Robotics vs. Hayes, SVHS vs. 8mm, etc.

    • Re:backward compatibility (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RatBastard ( 949 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:46PM (#5948160) Homepage
      I'll assume you're asking an honest question (here? at slashdot? HAHAHAHA!) and give you an honest answer.

      Backwards compatibility is implemented in order to not destroy the installed base of products. What good is a new DVD player that can't play existing DVDs? How many people are going to buy ANOTHER DVD player just to leave the old one in place because the new one won't play the 400 movies they already have? People already grous about having to keep a DVD player and a VCR!

      As for file formats, who cares if no one else is going to use your files? If you ever want to share them with someone else then you will need to either support an existing format or distribute the needed code to use your files with them.

  • damn /. subscriptions! (Score:2, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I was all ready to fire off a clever remark about the date typo, but all the subscribers beat me to it! Damn you, /. subscription service, you're obstructing my quest for high Karma!

  • Is it just me or... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by billstr78 ( 535271 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:39PM (#5948091) Homepage
    ... has the media format standards always been divided between two non-compatable formats. Is there really any reason they cannot agree on one. Why not argue over three or four.

    Beta/VHS, CD-RW/CD-RW+, mp3/wma, DVD-RW,DVD-RW+. One of them always looses big time, they ought follow in the footsteps of the W3C or IETF and make _one_ standard that makes everyone happy.

    It seems as though companies align themselves along competition lines rather than going with the one with the best specification.

    • Re:Is it just me or... (Score:2, Informative)

      by shepd ( 155729 )
      Really, it's just Sony vs. Not-Sony for the formats.

      Witness:

      MD vs. DAT/Casette
      Beta vs. VHS
      MemoryStick vs. CF/SmartMedia/SD
      PlayStation vs. Everyone Else (although this is the norm for consoles)

      I'm sure there are many more failed Sony-only ideas. I really wish Sony would give up on their BS formats. Some of their products look interesting, but the only one I've ever bought was the PS2, the rest are simply too incompatible with my life. Heck, I only bought the PS2 because at the time the benefits (being,

      • MD was more in competition w/ DCC that DAT. You can't blame Sony for trying. Although, being geek, I do agreee that it's lame. I think the IBM quote on Open Source sums it up best: agree on standards, compete on implemenation.

        Given the fact the the Apple SuperDrive uses DVD-R, I think you are safe. At least I hope so since I have a SuperDrive in my TiBook.

  • Blue laser......mmm.. (Score:5, Funny)

    by DJ Rubbie ( 621940 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:39PM (#5948096) Homepage Journal
    Who cares how much data or what data format it can store! All I want is to remove the top cover of the drive and replace it with plexiglass, mod the computer case so there's also a plexiglass so the pretty blue laser light can actually shine through the case. mmm...

    Of course, this is quite expensive, unless someone can show me a blue laser that I can attach to the computer that will automatically point towards the eyes of whoever snooping over my back....

  • There are standards? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Jasin Natael ( 14968 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:42PM (#5948117)
    > backwards compatibility with the current standards for DVDs.

    What standards? I've been waiting and waiting for the "current standards" to shake out, and they still haven't. Maybe I'll be able to get a DVD burner in another 2-3 years, when they finally do have a standard!
  • I already have problems with my 2-year-old son scratching my CD collection. DVDs are even MORE sensitive to scratching. As the wavelength shortens and density increases, it seems reasonable to expect the thing to be a lot more sensitive to scratching. If the format stores a disc in a cartridge, then this is not a problem. However, cartridges seem to have died out years ago.

  • Oh dear, another format war. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mblase ( 200735 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:45PM (#5948149)
    Two imcompatible formats promising the same thing. Whatever will we do? Will one be more successful than the other? Will one drive the other to extinction? Do you think that the winner will be the most technologically sophisticated, or the cheapest and most widely-licensed?

    Interesting news, but nothing I'm going to worry about. We've all weathered incompatible formats before. If you want to know which one will win, just wait a year after drives for both formats go on sale and check your Best Buy flier for the cheapest price.

  • HD-DVD consigning itself to a niche market? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bnavarro ( 172692 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:45PM (#5948152)
    There is an interesting commentary [thedigitalbits.com] on this over at the Digital Bits. It looks like some companies don't want backwards compatibilty with today's DVD, and they want to lock down the market and prevent cheap Chinese players from entering the HD-DVD arena.

    If they do that, I think that you will see HD-DVD relegated to a LaserDisc sized niche market. Only true videophiles will spend hundereds of dollars to upgrade hardware, and hundreds more to replace their DVD collection with HD discs. The rest of the population will be perfectly happy with Anamorphic Widescreen DVD on a HD set.
    • That's sort of where D-VHS is now. (a niche high-end format for HDTV playback and recording). The only serious technical problem with it is the magnetic tape, which prevents random access and DVD-style special features. The marketing problem is that very few movies are going to be released on D-VHS. (and those that are released will be "second-tier" movies, not the videophile classics like Star Wars, T2, etc).

      LaserDisc was different in that there were a lot of high-quality releases. (my box set of the orig

  • Unify (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    What they need to do is instead of bickering about my format or yours, they just need to make a open standard that anyone can use. Granted you don't make all the money of the royalties, but we all saw how quickly DVD took off. As long as there's a good reason to upgrade (HDTV compatability, extra features, etc), and there's only one standard with DVD backwards compatability, then people won't stop to think about upgrading. It'll be a no brainer as long as you have an HDTV (which someday may be commonplac
    • Maybe the MPAA could actually do something useful and actually back an open, flexible, and useful standard that can be used in computers and HD-DVD players.

      Whoa there, think about it for a second. The MPAA wants computer drives and whatever media format it chooses to diverge as much as possible. They will not be able to secure their media (as happened with DeCSS) and they know it. They'll only be able to secure the medium on which that data passes. That's why we will be saddled with DVI copy protectio
      • The MPAA wants to diverge technology, where the world is shifting tward a digital convergence.

        Why the hell don't they just tax the media like they do with everything else that is considered to be primarly used for piracy? Select the most popular computer media, use it to publish their A/V media.
        • Why the hell don't they just tax the media like they do with everything else that is considered to be primarly used for piracy?

          That's exactly why they say CD costs are so high despite the fact manufacturing costs are so low. I'll pay quite a bit for say, Star Wars on HD-DVD, as will a lot of other people. I won't pay the same amount for Stargate, even though I enjoyed the movie. Honestly, the MPAA isn't really worried about Joe HaX0r and his FTP server. They are worried that when REALLY fast internet

  • Mmmmmmm (Score:5, Funny)

    by wazzzup ( 172351 ) <astromac@f[ ]mail.fm ['ast' in gap]> on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:47PM (#5948164)
    [eyelids half-shut, drool running out of corner of mouth]

    Mmmmmmm....36GB should give me more than enough room to do everything I ever wanted to do on a date.

    Yes, even that. Mmmmmmmmmm.

  • DVD is not the same thing as DVD-Video (Score:3, Informative)

    by nedron ( 5294 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:47PM (#5948170) Homepage
    None of this really has anything to do with DVD-Video, which is a completely different beast and managed by the DVD Forum. To my knowledge, the Blu-Ray group (0.1nm) has never submitted a proposal to the DVD Forum for consideration in the next generation of DVD-Video.

    And the NEC/Toshiba thing (AOD, or Advanced Optical Disc using 0.6nm) isn't new, it's been under discussion for some time. Frankly, they have the better system as it applies to DVD-Video, since it fits well in the current fabrication process. It admittedly has a lower storage capacity than Blu-Ray, but it's not significant and with a recent dual layer announcement from NEC/Toshiba, there should be no reason an HD movie would not fit on a single AOD platter.

    So for now, unless the 0.1nm group (Blu-Ray) gets going, they're going to get shut out of the DVD-Video NG spec (not that they have a significant chance anyhow, due to startup costs.)

    -David

    • ...Blu-Ray group (0.1nm)...
      ...AOD, or Advanced Optical Disc using 0.6nm...

      Er. Check your numbers and units. Conventional DVD uses a red 650 nm laser. The new blue laser formats operate at a wavelength of 450 nm. (For reference, CDs use a near IR laser at 780 nm.) 0.1 nm is the approximate size of a single atom.

      You might be thinking of the substrate thickness. There is a layer of clear plastic that protects the actual recorded surface from the cruel world around it. This substrate is 0.6 mm (mil

      • I should have been clear I was talking about the substrate, not the laser wavelength. I don't think I mentioned wavelength at all, but I definitely wasn't clear. Though you're definitely correct that I fat fingered the units. <G>

        Note that of the two major blue laser groups, Blu-Ray uses 0.1mm, while NEC/Toshiba use a 0.6mm substrate. That's why the NEC/Toshiba proposal fits better in the current model.

        Still, the actual point is valid, that the Blu-Ray consortium has yet to submit a proposal for it

  • Won't this sort of thing defeat the purpose of (Score:5, Funny)

    by Ishin ( 671694 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @02:50PM (#5948196) Journal
    special edition dvds? How is Peter Jackson supposed to sell two versions of the same movie two times only four months apart if they're both the same number of discs?

  • but at what speed? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    all this high capacity crap is all fun and good but in the fast pace world that i live in (audio and video) i need to make backups quick, and if i have to wait 4 to 6 hours to burn 36GB then this will not help me

  • The Death of DVD+RW? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by DeadBugs ( 546475 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @03:06PM (#5948366) Homepage
    I have noticed lately that many of the companies that were DVD+RW "supporters" are now offering DVD-RW drives either separately or in Desktop\Notebook computers. Sony, TDK & HP all of which are listed as DVD+RW supporters have DVD-RW offerings. I wonder if they are starting to quietly shift formats. I also saw that the first "Blue Laser" product from Sony in only backwards compatible with -RW and not +RW.
  • In the interest of compromise and back compatability, do you think we can merge the red and blue technologies for something more purplish? That way, everyone's happy!

  • ...which can be mounted on the top of a shark!

  • DVD technology is years behind what it should be because of stupid industry bickering over certain issues.

    If any of you will recall, there was this minor issue with a copy protection scheme that took years to hammer our and a week to crack.

    Anyone wanna bet this situation will be shown to contain equal stupidity?

  • so, 6 standards? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by SuperBanana ( 662181 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @03:15PM (#5948484)

    So this means DVD-R, DVD+R, Blue1DVD-R, Blue1DVD+R, Blue2DVD-R, Blue2DVD+R?

    What exactly -is- the difference between +/-R, anyway? Same question for the two blue 'standards'?

  • There is one non-backward compatible change I'd like to see embraced: put the optical media in a _thin_ cartridge.

    I believe blue-ray is such, but from what I read blue-ray is not really meant as the next-gen DVD format, mostly as a format for recorders and computers. And one of the reason cited is the cartridge :(

    I would prefer a format where the media is protected better than current CDs and DVDs. A format that could be grabbed by a reader more reliably than the current (cf. slot-loading readers on
  • Is to do what I'm doing now. I'll wait til the dust settles on DVD+-R, and when everybody keeps shuffling around with the Blue DVD standards, I'll upgrade from CDRs to whatever's left in the DVD+-R format with a $68 drive and media that costs $.25 a piece.

    (Have you priced burnproof CDRW's lately? I rember paying $350 for my first 4x drive and thought what a great deal it was...compared to that $800 drive a roommate had in college, which IIRC was _incompatible_ with CDR's.)

    Alas, that means it'll ALWAYS tak

  • A crazy idea (Score:5, Interesting)

    by swb ( 14022 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @03:23PM (#5948579)
    I had a crazy idea this morning.

    Why can't they make a "generic" optical disc that can be written in any format (CD, DVD-R, DVD+R, etc) up to whatever the granularity of the dye is?

    I know its probably a dumb question, but it seems like there's no reason I shouldn't be able to write a CD-R format disc onto a DVD-R, at least in terms of pit density.

    • cd-r format disc is a one-layered disc (AFAIK)
      DVD-R's are 4 layers(4gig, 1gig per layer), and this new tech is 11(or 9??).
      so... i dont understand what pit density is, but, it seems that the size of your data disc is dependent on the layers...

      ofcourse, i really have no idea. i just read this somewhere.

      • DVD-R's are 4 layers(4gig, 1gig per layer), and this new tech is 11(or 9??).
        ofcourse, i really have no idea. i just read this somewhere.

        Ok, at least you admit to not knowing what you are talking about. The common DVD-R is single layer, and is 4.7GB.
      • Just about everything you said, save for the CD-Rs being single layer, is entirely false.

        • Re:A crazy idea (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Cyno ( 85911 )
          What he said doesn't matter, what he was saying is that some new type of DVD formats are using multiple layers. Making a generic optical disc would probably be rather difficult unless the layering was done through a hologram or color or some other type of optical illusion.
          I read somewhere that there are certain types of crystal that can hold extreme amounts of write-once data by using up to 180,000+ different distinguishible colors of laser light per cell. Once burned that cell would only allow those colo

    • Re:A crazy idea (Score:3, Informative)

      by xluap ( 652530 )
      An empty disk allready has tracks on it which are followed by the laser when writing. Those track are different for different media, so you cannot write a cd-r format to a dvd-r.
    • "up to whatever the granularity of the dye is?"

      They won't, because who will get the "Piracy Tax?" Are you going to steal songs from the RIAA or steal movies from the MPAA?

      Actually, knowing them, they'll compromise and charge double the tax just to make sure you've been good and punished for your crimes.
  • "The appetite for new investments in new production lines is small right now," said Wolfgang Schlichting, research director of removable storage at research firm IDC.

    IMHO this reads: " We are too poor right now to do much else than sell what we have and try not to go bankrupt. "

    It is sad that possibly some great ideas in IT are escaping. It is difficult to be innovative when a great mind is in fear of being dismissed, downsized, and laid off due to our current economy.

  • While not nessicarly the "speed" of tape, CD media {used loosely to refer to a 5 inch disk ) has alot of appeal to me. While not replacing tape by any means, it's attractive because of the ease of CD changers. A 3 disk changer, which I believe is the practical limit of a standard 1/2 height 5.25 inch device, easily becomes 108gig.

    This idea is very attractive to me, not only for let's say backing up files and such, but cranking out copies of home movies.

  • Dr. Evil (Score:3, Funny)

    by vivek7006 ( 585218 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @05:00PM (#5949428) Homepage
    I want sharks with frikkin blue lasers
  • Now that... I'll buy! I wonder how much it'd hold?
  • I gave up mod points for this thread (I *always* mod up, btw) only to be modded into oblivion because I was a few *seconds* too slow. /raises eyebrows

    How about giving a 5 or 10 minute window to delete our posts if someone beats us to the punch, or moderator (clue-by-four) training (like when you sort *newest first* the posts at the bottom are *not* redundant---/rolleyes/).

    Anyway, whatever...

    To veer back on topic:

    Blue lasers...more data, less dateuhhh....aw, shit did it again.

    (note to humor impaired: NO

  • Easy choice (Score:3, Funny)

    by Graspee_Leemoor ( 302316 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @05:59PM (#5949903) Homepage Journal
    AOD or BluRay ?

    Easy choice- "BluRay" sounds a billion times cooler.

    Like what is "AOD"? "Attack of the DMCA"?

    Pfff.

    graspee

  • Too fast for end-user demand? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by ic3p1ck ( 597610 ) on Tuesday May 13, 2003 @08:18PM (#5950855)
    On the other hand, "the technology may be running too fast for end-user demand," he said. "For many, DVD is good enough."
    DVD good enough? I don't think so. Removable and backup media have been lagging far behind the increases in hard drive capacities for years now.

    We needed this technology yesterday!

  • I'll do this the same way I did writable DVD...wait for Apple to pick one (DVD-R), and then go for the other one (DVD+R), since it will turn out to be technically better, and win in the long run.

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