

NASA Wires Chips With Nanotubes 196
carstene writes "SpaceDaily reports that NASA has come up with a way to wire microchips with nanotubes instead of copper interconnects. Aparently this could keep Moore's law a reality well into the next decade."
royalties (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:royalties (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:royalties (Score:1, Informative)
Re:royalties (Score:1)
Re:royalties (Score:3, Interesting)
I've seen plans for tiny scanning lasers (for docking alignment) on one of nasa's many websites, and loads of other stuff to boot. There's also a host of other reserach papers available online.
Re:royalties (Score:1)
Re:royalties (Score:1)
Re:royalties (Score:2)
Re:royalties (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:royalties (Score:2)
Re:royalties (Score:2)
You're not mistaken; you're misled.
Comapnies are taxed only on their profits--that's like making the food that I buy and the rent I pay tax deductions.
Corporations also pay "it's not profit" gains. MS, for example, makes an ungodly ammount of money--but since they never declare it as a profit, they don't pay taxes on it.
Re:royalties (Score:3, Informative)
Re:royalties (Score:2)
And higher personal taxes mean higher wages, which means higher prices for goods and services. In the long term, anyway.
Ahh, wealth redistribution, what a wonderful concept
Re:royalties (Score:2)
Re:royalties (Score:1)
The name Velcro is a contraction of "velour" and "crochet". The loop side is the "vel", and the hook side is the "cro".
There go the royalties.... (Score:2)
NASA vs. Intel (Score:5, Interesting)
I could be wrong. Has Intel done anything this cool? Surely they would spend more money on R&D for processors (I would assume NASA spends more on Space?)
any info about this would be much appreciated.
Re:NASA vs. Intel (Score:2, Insightful)
How about creating the first microprocessor [intel4004.com]? That cool enough for you?
Re:NASA vs. Intel (Score:1)
http://www.nano.gov/2003budget.html [nano.gov] will give you an insight into the actual dollars.
Re:NASA vs. Intel (Score:5, Interesting)
For stuff like nano-tubes and quantum computing, Intel usually helps fund academia to let them take the high-risk endeavors. And then take the benefits as they are produced.
I'm not sure what Intel's current plan is now, but it seems that they're putting more R&D dollars into the mobile/ubiquitous computing market, to try and branch out their chip options, instead of being forever racing against Moore's Law.
Intel-research.net [intel-research.net], for some info on Intel and partnerships with academia on this type of research.
Re:NASA vs. Intel (Score:2)
How about Hyperthreading? That's kinda cool, at least it uses "hyper" in the name like hyperdrive, hyperspace, hyper girlfriend and other nifty things...
Re:NASA vs. Intel (Score:3, Interesting)
Anyway, if not this idiotic decision to sell your crown juvels the game in the server town would have been quite different now. Basically the PPC and Alpha would have been multithreaded whi
BullSh*t (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, I'm not saying the Intel invented SMT (hyperthreading), but they didn't really just take it from Compaq either.
Most of the Intel inventions are either not disclos
Re:NASA vs. Intel (Score:2)
You can't prove that PPC or Alpha would currently be performing better then Intel for the same price (a critical point; who give a fart that Alphas run more quietly and twice as quickly if they cost 20 times as much (a rhetorical number, BTW, but I believe they were significantly more expensive)?) unless you build one.
Even if Alpha or PPC had been put on life support it is likely that Intel would have continued to dominate because Intel had a b
quantum entaglement (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:quantum entaglement (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:quantum entaglement (Score:2)
Re:quantum entaglement (Score:5, Informative)
I know some folks trying to make qubits out of nanotubes by patterning gates on them. Very very hard, they're so damn small standard lithography techniques are out the window.
Nanotubes also have interesting phonon characteristics that make them good candidates for qubit systems. Also, it has been demonstrated that spin-orbit coupling in nanotubes can be drastically reduced, which can greatly enhance coherence times for spintronic qubits.
So, if Intel or NASA is "only" looking at using these guys for interconnects, carbon nanotubes still have significant potential for revolutionary computing breakthroughs.
True, but... (Score:2)
Also, as I recall, the major problem with using nanotubes in this way is going to be getting a number of them with similar characteristics. So far, no one's been able to get a good handle o
Re:True, but... (Score:2)
yeah, true. What we did when we measured tube resistance is put a drop of a solution containing a dispersion of nanotubes onto a small die-sized substrate. There was a trench etched in the substrate, with patterned metal leads, so by statistics, at the right tube concentration in solution, we'd get a few samples with one tube across the trench for each set of leads. thus, we can measure
Re:quantum entaglement (Score:2)
Sorry Dave (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Sorry Dave (Score:2)
Logic blocks are SOOOOO 2001. This is 2003. Get with the now.
need more info? (Score:5, Informative)
I gotta do it.... (Score:4, Funny)
*flash*
**POP**
:)
Warrent some explanation (Score:5, Informative)
I think it was discovered at RPI [rpi.edu].
AFAIK Oxygen is necessary for this combustion to take place, so your chips would be safe.
But in the end nobody really knows.
p.s. this has serious implications on the space-elevator, if y'all havn't thought about it already. =)
Re:Warrent some explanation (Score:1)
"Paint" would not,I think, suffice
Still,it doesn't sound too overly complicated.
Re:Warrant some explanation (Score:2)
So the chips and the space elevator might be ok.
Re:Warrent some explanation (Score:3, Informative)
Wow, good stuff (Score:2)
-Zipwow
Re:Warrent some explanation (Score:1)
Re:I gotta do it.... (Score:1)
Weird.
Who knew that Buffy has been fighting the mechanoid menace all these years and not some pesky undead...
Re:I gotta do it.... (Score:2)
This will take a while to seep down to home users (Score:4, Insightful)
Suchetha
Re:This will take a while to seep down to home use (Score:5, Informative)
That's completely untrue. For most of the history of the semiconductor industry, aluminium has been used, because the manufacturing process for copper was much more difficult. Copper has only recently become commonplace.
changing over to this kind of manufacturing will be a massive capital investment for a company, especially the companies in the East (asia not new york) where are a lot of these chips/boards are made
Changing to new manufacturing processes is a fact of life in the semiconductor industry and happens regularly. It always requires massive capital investment, yet somehow, they seem to manage (see above).
there are AFAIK no companies that make nanotubes in sufficient quantity and quality to feed the demand for the tubes at the moment
There are also no companies which manufacture nano scale copper wires for routing layers on ICs. This is because it's not done that way. Once you have a process for growing carbon nano-tubes on chips, you just have make it cost effective - just like any other semiconductor manufacturing technology.
unless you are a gamer home computers are more than fast enough now for what we want (internet/email/minor word processing) this kind of tech will only benefit the "Power User" community..
There's no amount of processing power that the desktop software industry will not be able to squander.
"only benefit the "Power User" community" (Score:5, Interesting)
People saying "unless you are a gamer home computers are more than fast enough now for what we want (internet/email/minor word processing) " are forgetting that
1 - Starting Word 2024 will require 1.5 TeraFlops because every key you strike will require the calculation of two 8192 bytes key and the exchange of 1024 security tokens / sec, and we have to get ready to cope with that
2 - My old and faithfull Dual PIII 1Ghz, that was once considered the fastest rig on my block is now just a piece of interesting junk that still allows me to play Quake and encode divxs at the same time, and LOTS of you just dream about doing it for real
3 - it's not because i'm not a basic luser that immediatly jump categories and becomes a Power User. And if you think a softcore gamer or a hardcore Quaker is a "Power User", you never saw a real 16 CPU machine being "stability tested" for a round or ten of Quake @1024 fps, or the fastest Divx encode ever (11 minutes 8p)...
4 - "internet/email/minor word processing" can be achieved since 486 DX2 66 with no problem and little fuss... I mean my mail Server/Firewall/Ftp/ Webserver/PDC is a Pentium 133 and it serves the need of 10 ppl...So stop complaining when we allow you the use of a 2 Ghz computer just so you can play Freecell @ 25 fps 8p
Would be BOFH, hoping for Admin job...
Re:This will take a while to seep down to home use (Score:1)
False. Most improvements in processor design and fabrication have allowed processors to be made that are faster, smaller, and cheaper. Perhaps there aren't many users who care about faster, but everyone cares about smaller and cheaper.
Re:This will take a while to seep down to home use (Score:2)
This won't stay true forever, though.
My PII-400 is about 3 1/2 years old now, two generations old in Moore's Law terms, and it is indeed fast enough for most of what I do.
However.
If I try to play movie files using certain late-model codecs (MPEG-4 f'rinstance), I get jerky playback and poor A/V synchronization -- the processor just can't keep up with decoding the data streams in realtime.
Software bloat shows no signs o
Moores law will never fail! (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Moores law will never fail! (Score:2)
(Note, this just broke the law that states: number of !s proportional to ludicrousityness of the statementing (translated into English (Dubya) for international appeal!!!)
Re:Moores law will never fail! (Score:3, Funny)
I'm still waiting for the day when I can go to Best Buy and get a harddrive with more storage than the number of elimentery particals in the universe. I figgure at current rates that is only about 60 years away.
Re:Moores law will never fail! (Score:2)
...and it always will be.
Chimps... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Chimps... (Score:2)
I did too. I thought "Wow, NASA's back to animal experimentation in space." Followed by, "I wonder what PETA thinks about that."
Oh well, back to the morning soda.
IBM pioneered Carbon Nanotubing (Score:5, Informative)
IBM pioneered Carbon Nanotubing led to pixie dust (Score:3, Informative)
Re:IBM pioneered Carbon Nanotubing (Score:2)
Nooooo! (Score:1, Funny)
WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT SNIFF YOUR CHIPS!
So much for enjoying the new computer smell.
Re:Nooooo! (Score:1)
One Million Amps!!!???? (Score:4, Funny)
Shocking! (Score:2)
Re:Shocking! (Score:2)
More info on their research on carbon tubes.. (Score:4, Informative)
Also the interview mentions the fact that in October 2002, it was still in basic research form and could take as much as a couple of years to production and maybe a bit more for commercial purposes.
But that still bodes well for us since Silicon will tide us through another 10 good years.
Wish I werent 30 right now. The average lifespan looking like 70 (hopefully!) I just have 40 more years left....oopss.. Panic Attack!
Re:More info on their research on carbon tubes.. (Score:2)
how many amps??? (Score:2, Funny)
These guys want some (Score:2)
Oh and the need a big rock to tie it to as well....
I know where they got the idea from (Score:3, Funny)
That's all nice, but ... (Score:4, Informative)
So I'd like to see some evolutionary/revolutionary inventions in these sectors, rather than making cpu's even faster and making the bottleneck of buses, caches and memories even larger...
Smaller wires == More cache (Score:3, Interesting)
does it have to be carbon? (Score:3, Interesting)
Group IV elements (Score:4, Informative)
However, intense research of carbon is what led to the discovery of buckyballs and nanotubes. Perhaps there other cool forms of silicon which are yet to be discovered.
On a different topic, how do the NASA researchers propose to connect the nanotubes in a useful way? I can understand growing the tubes on a silicon wafer and filling in the surrounding space, but this just produces a bunch of parallel wires not a designed circuit.
AlpineR
Light, not electrons are the answer (Score:1)
Re:Light, not electrons are the answer (Score:2)
ISTR that electricity in a wire actually travels by the transmission of momentum from one electron to another, not by the movement of electrons themselves, and that this transimission take place essentially at lightspeed. So I don't think the actual speed of the electrons is an issue.
Re:Light, not electrons are the answer (Score:2)
Electricity travels through wires at a snail's pace in comparison (of course, even that is still pretty damn quick).
Are they small enough? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Are they small enough? (Score:2)
Ban It! (Score:4, Funny)
-Crazy researcher from other recent
Only in America... (Score:2, Funny)
In other news, Intel's R&D department announced that mounting heatsink+fan on shuttles' thermal tiles can efficiently disspate heat during reentry into the Earth atmosphere.
NASA (Score:2, Funny)
Not quite (Score:3, Informative)
If you read the article closely, you'll see it's not talking about about replacing all copper interconnect on the chip -- only a small portion, in fact: the vias. The carbon nanotube are being used only for the interconnect between metal layers, not between devices on the chip in general.
Re:How good conductors? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:How good conductors? (Score:1)
I highly doubt that, then the headline on the article would be very, very different. I guess they mean "any deterioration, we could (care to) measure".
"good conductors" (Score:3, Informative)
Re:"good conductors" (Score:1, Informative)
Re:"good conductors" (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:"good conductors" (Score:2)
How can a conductor carry 1*10^6 amps while still having some level of resistance (and, presumably, no heat-sink)? I'm thinking of
P = IR^2
where, with I reeeally big, P is going to get out of hand for a tiny nanotube unless R is reeeally small.
Re:"good conductors" (Score:2)
Re:"good conductors" (Score:1, Informative)
P =(I^2)R
That being the case, P will get even bigger than you thought. Maybe R is really small...
aluminum's resistivity is 2.8 ohms-cm, and copper's is 1.7 ohms-cm. Anyone know the resistivity for tye different types of nanotubes (SWCN, etc...)?
Re:How good conductors? (Score:3, Interesting)
I've measured resistance of a nanotube of approx. 200 nm in length and about 5-10 nm in diameter to be a few hundred kilo-ohms (sorry, don't have exact numbers with me). This was for temperatures from room (300 K) down to about 2 K. We were looking at verifying some initial claims by groups claiming that nanotubes were superconducting. they aren't.
Re:How good conductors? (Score:3, Informative)
Re:NanoTubes... (Score:2)
Re:NanoTubes... (Score:3, Interesting)
The way out may be a redundancy - several tubes doing the same function.
Maybe they can use them in vertical connections - for stacking chips up - one onto another, with nanotubes connecting the layers. But the overheating of such compact assemblies would be problem.
Re:NanoTubes... (Score:2)
Maybe if the nanotubes' conduction/size ratio is good enough, they could be used as heat-pipes within the chip itself.
Re:NanoTubes... (Score:5, Interesting)
with rather large number of shells. Then you can
pass enough current to blow out all semiconducting
shells and get a metallic conductor. I don't
know if they use this trick but that's what IBM
people have done a while back.
The real trick is positioning these nanotubes
and contacting them. I wonder what they do to
assure good electrical contact. Typically your
contacts will be the first to blow out and the
thing to limit electronic mobility. Plus
encasing the nanotubes in silica sounds like a
bad idea because these suckers are really
sensitive to external perturbations and may not
conduct as well under external stress.
Re:Why is NASA doing this? (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Why is NASA doing this? (Score:4, Funny)
Like what? I know! they could make smaller chips for their computers so they could have more onboard computing power without sacrificing having a few spares! oh wait, that probbly involves playing around with nano tech, whoops!
besides, they probbly raise funds this way...
Re:Why is NASA doing this? (Score:2)
Has someone turned up the stupid on /. today or have my comment filters reset..?
Re:Why is NASA doing this? (Score:2)
Re:Why is NASA doing this? (Score:4, Interesting)
Faster, smaller, lighter computers are usefull for spacetravel. Just because they sendt a man to the moon with an onboard computer with less calculating power than a cheap pocket calculator and a weight of about 70 lbs (in addition to the 17.5 lbs DSKY) don't means that we should be satisfied with that sort of perfomance in the future.
BTW, more info on the Apollo guidance computer can be found at "One Giant Leap: The Apollo Guidance Computer" [ddj.com] for those interested.
Re:Why is NASA doing this? (Score:1)
So at that price, they might earn money on this research that results in a few less needed pounds per launch...
(And yes, that is a sad, sad joke -- I know the shuttle computers are from the 80's, or something.)