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Hardware Science

Your Eyes Will Melt Out Of Your Head 279

Posted by timothy from the mmmm-lcds-are-great dept.
SunPin writes "Slashdotters are doomed. An article from Reuters describes serious health problems from using CRTs (they call them "VDT") for too long. Studies show that we need more studies." So go ahead and expense a three-head LCD setup for your desk.
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Your Eyes Will Melt Out Of Your Head More

Your Eyes Will Melt Out Of Your Head

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  • Great! (Score:5, Funny)

    by Longinus ( 601448 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @04:58AM (#4606612) Homepage
    This means my insurance will cover the 23" Apple Cinema HD Display I've had my eye (pardon the pun) on right?

  • In Other news .... (Score:5, Funny)

    by EvilCabbage ( 589836 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @04:58AM (#4606614) Homepage
    Scientific leaders today made the discovery that too much of anything, might just be bad for you.

    Yes, even beer.

  • Study this! (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Blackneto ( 516458 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @04:59AM (#4606615) Journal
    It's not just the CRT, it's the SITTING. All day in one position, gee I wonder if thats going to have an effect on you.
    The only damage I've had from sitting in front of a monitor at work for 10 years is 100 more pounds on my frame than I should have.

    • Re:Study this! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by e8johan ( 605347 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:18AM (#4606713) Homepage Journal
      Ok, they mainly complain about the screen, but the conclusions says that it is sitting in front of a computer that is the problem, not radiation from a CRT.

      From this I draw two conclusions: 1) the original article is better than the rewritten summary and 2) LCDs is not the solution.

      I have two tips myself to solve the problem: 1) get an adjustable dest that you can stand or sit at and 2) make sit-ups each morning and evening to avoid back pains. These two points helped me!

      • Re:Study this! (Score:5, Informative)

        by bigmouth_strikes ( 224629 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @09:57AM (#4607605) Journal
        I have two tips myself to solve the problem: 1) get an adjustable dest that you can stand or sit at and 2) make sit-ups each morning and evening to avoid back pains. These two points helped me!

        The first tip is a great one, which will save you fro a lot of pain, if you have back problems. The second tip is a disaster, as any chiropractor will tell you. Don't do situps if you have a back condition.

        But you wouldn't take medical advice from /. anyhow, would you ?
        • I'd rather take advice from slashdot than advice from a Chiropracter. And, I'd rather take advice from a Chiropracter, than second hand Chiropractic advice from Slashdot!

      • Ergonomics (Score:3, Informative)

        by msobkow ( 48369 )

        The typical office environment with modular office cube is just about the worst ergonomic environment there is. The cube itself has several problems:

        • Placing the monitor in the corner means the desk wings are constantly in the way of elbows.
        • Desk height is non-adjustable, so it's either too high or too low for the majority of people.
        • Keyboard trays (mounted under the desk) take up enough space that anyone over 5' 10" is going to get whacked in the knees if they try to use it.
        • These units were designed before mice were common, and have no support for them on the keyboard trays.
        • The overhead shelves/bins prevent raising the monitor to an ergonomic height.

        Add to that issues of non-adjustable chairs, cheap flat keyboards (vs. ergonomic designs), poor mouse designs, and you've got a guarantee of neck, shoulder, and back problems before you even turn on the monitor.

        Turning to the monitors, it's usually not a simple issue of LCD vs. CRT, but of monitor quality. Most cube-lands are full of poor quality monitors that came with pre-negotiated system bundles, often meaning they were outdated before the supply contract was first signed.

        As a consultant, I have spent at least half my career stuck in front of blurry, non-adjustable, cheap monitors that I wouldn't even consider for a kids computer, much less someone who has to spend hours a day on it. While far from the worst I've dealt with, my current client environment consists of 5+ year old 17" monitors with poor color, poor contrast, glare problems, low refresh rates, and focus problems (the monitor I'm saddled with can't handle more than 1280x1024 at 60Hz NI. While the resolution is theoretically good enough, refresh rates under 75Hz cause serious eye strain.)

        TFT LCD displays would help the eye strain, but so would high quality CRT monitors (e.g. Sony G420 19", Hitachi CM715 19", et. al.) The problem is that companies are not going to pay for replacement monitors because they can get entire system bundles with cheap monitors for very little more.

        • Turning to the monitors, it's usually not a simple issue of LCD vs. CRT, but of monitor quality.

          It's not just monitor quality. I would argue that it is also an issue of operating system quality with text antialiasing being a huge factor in eye strain. See an article I wrote for Applelust here for more details:

          Scientia et Macintosh [applelust.com] [applelust.com]

          • Font anti-aliasing is completely useless when the monitor itself is blurry. Even so, I'd much rather use extreme resolutions with large fonts, as that has the same end result as anti-aliasing. A "good" monitor effectively blends adjacent pixels when fed resolutions higher than the physical display can support, which is exactly what anti-aliasing is trying to do via software. For example, most 17" monitors have a maximum physical display of 1280x1024. Feed them a 1600x1280 signal, and you get hardware "aliasing".

      • SIT-UPS?!@?! (Score:5, Funny)

        by waspleg ( 316038 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @10:33AM (#4607910) Journal
        i think you just lost your audience =)

      • Here's a third tip: stop being obsessive-compulsive about your work. Don't forget that you have a life outside of staring at the screen.

        No, you cannot download a real life, silly human...

      • 2) make sit-ups each morning and evening to avoid back pains.

        Since sit-ups constitute a highly repetitive task, wouldn't it be better if I just write a program to do them for me? That way, it'll free up my time for things which require more thought. :-)

    • Re:Study this! (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Psiren ( 6145 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:31AM (#4606763)
      Being 100 pounds overweight has nothing to do with sitting down all day. It's more to do with being lazy. You can still exercise can't you?

    • Re:Study this! (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Alphi1 ( 557250 )
      This is the thing that bugs me about this type of "study"... They have two years (so they claim) worth of data that they ASSUME is due to the CRT, and nothing else... But my experience has been that people who look at a CRT all day also tend to have other things in common. They (generally) also sit all day. They (generally) sit in close proximity to a computer. Heck, they even (usually) work with those new-fangled devices, called a keyboard and a mouse. ;) But none of those are to blame for what they've seen, it MUST be the CRT. But do they have "control" cases, where people are sitting at a desk, with a computer (and mouse and keyboard) that DOESN'T have a monitor (a CRT)? Not terribly likely.

      • Re:Study this! (Score:5, Insightful)

        by IIRCAFAIKIANAL ( 572786 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:33AM (#4607008) Journal
        Interesting points. Could be junk science [junkscience.com]. Personally, I never believe headlines and I won't even pay attention until there have been several studies from independant sources.

        The problem is we see this stuff published every day - it often gets retracted, but that rarely makes the news.
        • Wow, this got modded up fast.

          Just for the record (as pointed out in another reply) this link is to Junk Science which is a website maintained by Steve Milloy, who is associated with the Cato Institute, a corporate funded think tank. This website often has a subtle right-wing, corporate friendly bias.

          Often the topics stray from the root scientific questions. For example - what the hell does a story about the Animal Liberation Front [foxnews.com] have to do with junk science? I fully support animal testing, but this is a tale of morality and politics, not science.

          Basically, whenever you read anything published anywhere, just ask three questions: "Where is the evidence, how much evidence is there, and can it and has it been duplicated elsewhere?"

      • Re:Study this! (Score:3, Informative)

        by leshert ( 40509 )
        Nothing in the article (as opposed to the Slashdot summary) attributed the damage to the CRT itself. In fact, they never mention the word CRT!

        A video display terminal (VDT) refers to the whole workstation, not just the monitor.

    • Re:Study this! (Score:5, Funny)

      by Surak ( 18578 ) <.surak. .at. .mailblocks.com.> on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:58AM (#4606870) Homepage Journal
      It's not just the CRT, it's the SITTING. All day in one position, gee I wonder if thats going to have an effect on you.
      The only damage I've had from sitting in front of a monitor at work for 10 years is 100 more pounds on my frame than I should have.

      10 years and only a 100 pounds? Heck, I've been sitting in front of this monitor for the last 20 years. Continuously. :-P They've had to replace it a couple of times. The weight's not what's bad, it's these damn IVs and catheters. I can't walk anymore (not that I've really tried), my eyes can stand the sunlight, and I don't even remember my name anymore. But other than that, no real effects from sitting in front of a CRT, no.

    • Then get out and jog / walk for an hour a day.
      When I take my lunch I go to the gym and exercise with my coworkers- It helps break up my day, allows me time to think, reduces my stress, and in the year since I've started I've gone from 250 to 180 (and now can run 5 miles in 45 minutes).
      Oh, and the ladies like it too...
    • it's not the CRT at all. The article doesn't eve nreally do anything but hint at that... it's just the typical slashdot-make-something-up-itis that happens.. there are thousands of professionals that have been sitting in front of CRT's, multiple CRT's, for well over 20 years.. other than being out of shape because they are more comatose than when sleeping there are no documented problems.. Talk about a good source for test subjects.. thousands upon thousands that happily sit in front of 1 to 3 monitors for 10 hours a day or more.. granted eye strain was bad in the early days.. but now when you can crank the monitors up to 80hz that is at an end.
    • I've found that when I forget to take breaks from the coding, I'm a lot worse off in general: eye strain, neck stiffness, back discomfort, arthritic wrists, etc. The best tool I've found so far is quite simple but very effective: xwrits [freshmeat.net]. It's been mentioned here on slashdot several times before, but I think it's worth repeating for those who haven't seen it before.

      xwrits allows you to specify the interval between breaks, duration of breaks, and many other useful things like whether you should get the finger when you ignore the warning. :-) (BTW, has anyone tested it on OSX?)
    • It could be a combination of physical factors, along with the added pressures of working for a complete dufus of a boss.

  • Not Really (Score:1, Funny)

    by akincisor ( 603833 )
    I sit in front of the computer all day, but the reason is not the CRT, but whats on it (read pr0n) :-)
    • so this is why my eyes and my dick hurt at the same time after an intensive evening of downloading all kinds-o-stuff from the web?

      seriously, what's so new about this study. we all knew already that your eyes start hurting when watching a monitor for too long... or is that something that distinguishes a real nerd from the avergae joe computer user: the ability to withstand prolongued exposure to CRTs...
    • That's not so bad, at least you are doing some exercise.

  • Oh! (Score:5, Funny)

    by JanusFury ( 452699 ) <kevin DOT gadd AT gmail DOT com> on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @05:00AM (#4606623) Homepage Journal
    That's why I'm not getting laid! Stupid monitors!
  • Sensationalist headlines on Slashdot? Never!

  • Cause? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ensignyu ( 417022 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @05:01AM (#4606628)
    The article doesn't mention or theorize why these symptoms are occuring. We don't know that LCDs are necessarily a solution to the problem, even if they're generally better on the eyes.
    Mental symptoms such as lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue, were most common among workers who spent more than 5 hours a day glued to their computer screen.
    Maybe it's just from staring at a fixed object without moving for long periods of time? Staring at a textbook for five hours would probably give me those symptoms as well in the short term.

    • Re:Cause? (Score:5, Funny)

      by Smidge204 ( 605297 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:36AM (#4606779) Journal
      Sounds like a classic case of SJS (Shitty Job Syndrome) to me. Vacations and alcohol tend to be the most commonly perscribed treatments.

      I'm sure another study would easily find that people who are generally dissatisfied with their jobs feel exactly the same way regardless of what they actually do.

      And in other news, studies show that eating ice cream increases your risk of being attacked by a shark. (Think about that for a moment...)
      =Smidge=

      • Re:Cause? (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Dun Malg ( 230075 )
        I'm sure another study would easily find that people who are generally dissatisfied with their jobs feel exactly the same way regardless of what they actually do.

        You said it, man. I install telecom/data wiring and equipment (no desk, no chair, no CRT) and I have all those symptoms.

  • Better than flat screen: get one of these (Score:3, Interesting)

    by rufusdufus ( 450462 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @05:02AM (#4606629)
    I just got a new Hitachi CP-SX5500W [avmall.com]. It is a bright projection LCD that does better than 1280x1024. I am using it for my main computer display. I now have a 72+ inch display. Woohoo! No CRT strain here!
    • The idea is so cool; many of us have considered this before. We're all afraid of one thing, though- isn't the bulb replacement a killer on the wallet?
      • yeah, in theroy, the bulb is about $400, and lasts somewhere on the order of 1000-5000 hours. if you can limit your computer time to 5 hours a day, the life of the bulb is somthing like 4 years.

        until the price of the bulb comes down signifigantly, these will generally be restricted to low use applications, primarily, the media room, and the office meeting room.
        • if you can limit your computer time to 5 hours a day, the life of the bulb is somthing like 4 years.

          So realistically, 18 months. :)

          Besides, for $5k initial investment, reguardless of the price for the bulbs, I don't see how the cost will ever justify itself in the long run. Though I guess I would cut down on computer usage, because it's not like I'd want to sit and stare at a wall for 5+ hours anyway.

          What I'm waiting for are (affordable) personal displays. Something that will let me wear a display as easily as I wear headphones would be nice. That would solve the space, privacy, portability and probably the power consumtion problems that normal monitors have.

          Does this product exist yet?
    • Great idea. The bulbs last how long? 500 hours? And they cost how much? $400 a piece?

  • expense it? (Score:5, Funny)

    by zephc ( 225327 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @05:02AM (#4606630)
    "So go ahead and expense a three-head LCD setup for your desk."

    To who, my mom and dad?

  • Squared eyes (Score:1, Funny)

    by trezor ( 555230 )

    My father allways told me if I watched too much TV or used my computer too much my eyes would end up beeing squared. No mentioning of that in the article, so I guess he was wrong.

  • LSD^H^H^HLCD (Score:3, Interesting)

    by RAMMS+EIN ( 578166 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @05:04AM (#4606634) Homepage Journal
    Fortunately, I've mostly ditched CRTs for LCD. I use my laptop to control all the computers I administer, and I connect the CRT I have only in emergency cases, i.e. when the machine won't run sshd so that I can't log in to it. LCDs (I think they are more correctly called TFTs?) are energy-efficient, produce next to no radiation, are small, and don't flicker. On the flip side, they're more expensive and less flexible (resolutionwise) than CRTs. However, 1024x768 is the only resolution I use, and I'm glad to pay a little more for all the goodies I get.

    ---
    Shaw's Principle:
    Build a system that even a fool can use, and only a fool will
    want to use it.

  • I like this study (Score:3, Interesting)

    by UniverseIsADoughnut ( 170909 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @05:04AM (#4606635)
    As a read it I felt like it was answering my problems. Through college I gradualy found my self in front of computers for greater amounts of time and now feel like as they describe, I can't sleep for crap any more. I ether sleep for 15hrs a day or don't sleep at all. Hell it's 5am and I'm up. I was tired a bit ago, but no more, I have to study for a test but don't feel like it, but I'm up because I'm wanting to study.

    Well guess it's time to make coffee

    • Re:I like this study (Score:2, Interesting)

      by mshurpik ( 198339 )
      I've noticed this. I think it's because sitting in front of the computer basically takes no energy. You can easily pull an all-nighter clicking and browsing around. Then you crash.

      Any normal activity, like driving, shopping, going to work eventually exhausts me to the point where I want some good sleep. Coding will do that too, but video games, web browsing etc. doesn't seem to.

  • Couch potatos never complain of these symptoms therefor I propose that all VDU's must have no greater resolution than 625 lines (525 in the US) and a refresh rate no greater than 50 Hz (60 Hz). Plus companies must provide seating at least 10 foot away from the computer with keyboard & mouse cables long enough to cope. Problem solved. Obviously this would cause other problems such as users wondering why they can't order pizza and have it delivered to their desk and why scratching their nuts gets the female staff so angry but these are minor issues...

  • crt's? what?? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mshurpik ( 198339 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @07:57AM (#4606648)
    OMG. 20 replies so far and pretty much every one of them mentions either CRTs or LCDs.

    The article mentions displays NOT ONCE.

    The closest it comes is "eyestrain," which is one of several symptoms they examined.

    This article is not about displays, it is about sitting in front of the computer.
    • As you well know, most slashdotters don't read the article before posting. By "VDT", the article clearly meant any display in general.

      BUT, the Slashdot article actually says, "VDT = CRT, CRT bad, use LCD."

      I blame Taco & co. on this one for a poorly worded summary of the article.
    • The article mentions displays NOT ONCE.

      From the article:

      While video display terminal (VDT) use has become commonplace in many types of jobs, there is little information on how long a person can safely use a computer each day.

      Did you happen to fail the reading comprehension section on the SATs?

      However, the article does disagree with the actual study (which links the symtpoms suffered to the work conditions) and in general seems sensationalistic.

  • "Reluctance to go to work " (Score:5, Funny)

    by guybarr ( 447727 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:00AM (#4606658)

    I can see it now:

    Yes dear, I know I need to go to work and feed our kids, but , you see, those big bad monitors at work are giving me hell. And I have referenced scientific article to prove it !

    people working with monitors are reluctant to go to work. scoop.

  • Mental Symptoms (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:02AM (#4606666)
    From the article...
    Mental symptoms such as... "reluctance to go to work"... were most common among workers...

    Yeah right, that has nothing to do with having a prick of a manager and doing demeaning and stressful work all day for little reward.
  • Quoting from the article: '"In our study, we found a significant relationship between duration of daily VDT use and physical symptoms," even after adjusting for other factors that could influence the results, the authors write. '

    I'd like to know how they account for these 'other factors'. I'm just wondering whether this could be attributed to the kind of working environment these people face... Stress is know to be a major cause of the symptoms they describe and I'm not sure how they factor that into their analysis... Nevertheless I agree that more research is necessary.

  • Some truth (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Tyreth ( 523822 )
    For years I have been unable to sleep properly. It's been at least 6 years, perhaps since I was 15, maybe younger. I wake up feeling energetic, sort of - able to leap over piles of junk in my room instantly. Yet for the whole day my eyes feel sleepy, like they want to sleep. And my body screams out that it's not ready for bed.

    Before you say it, I already know - this sounds pretty much like I'm not getting enough excercise, and spending too much time looking at a monitor. However, even if I spend a month away from a computer, doing active outdoor activities, it still makes no difference. I think it may take longer time.

    If it is true that an LCD is better for me, then I will gladly get one to end the way I feel. It's just...something...like a constant gnawing, irritation. I'm able to fall to sleep, providing I go when my body is ready. This is usually around 2-3am. Sometimes (very rarely) it can be as late as 7am before my body is ready to sleep. If I go too early I simply cannot sleep. If I go when I am ready I fall to sleep within, perhaps, 30 minutes.

    I don't feel much back pain (if any) though, and my eyes almost never feel strained or saw (right now being the exception, so I'm about to go do something else).

    So, is an LCD really going to reduce the effects that this article talks about?

  • VDT vs CRT (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Bemmu ( 42122 ) <lomise@ u t a . fi> on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:07AM (#4606679) Homepage Journal
    VDT = Video Display Terminal
    CRT = Cathode Ray Tube
    LCD = Liquid Crystal Display

    In the article summary where the slashdot link leads, they don't mention anything about LCDs being more healthy than CRTs. They refer to VDPs which I would guess is a superset containing both computer systems with CRTs and LCDs.

    I would be happy however if health benefits are found from using LCDs since I've had trouble convincing my friends just with the cool factor.

  • Well Duh! (Score:2, Funny)

    by gingerTabs ( 532664 )
    The researchers call for more research


    Of course they did. It's not like they're going to say "well thanks, I think we've researched it enough now. Let's head down to the welfare office"

    </cynicism>

  • I got it all (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Hanul ( 533254 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:14AM (#4606705) Homepage
    One year after starting my job I got all the symptoms mentioned. I have to sit in front of the computer all the day (>8hrs). I had pains in my shoulders, neck, and lower back, I had eyestrain, and my index finger hurt from using the scroll wheel (that's why a 1-button-mouse is a good thing :-). I also developed some neurotic behavior including anxiety (9/11 helped much to make things worse :-(), and I didn't like the job very much, also the colleagues and the whole environment is really great - also the job is easy and well paid.

    I coped with it mostly by doing one thing: sports. Since I go to the gym 3 times a week, everything went back to normal. No pain, no fear.
    • My experience is similar to yours. I started having problems with both wrist strain and neck tension.

      My solution has been to start going to the gym, where I make sure I train my neck, wrists and fingers.

      In addition to that I've also learned to use my mouse with either hand. That way when my hand gets tired I just swap.

      In general I feel working out is a great idea, sitting for 2 years doing nothing didn't do me any good, but nowadays I really feel a lot healthier.

    • I no longer use my mouse wheel. It gave me significant wrist pain. :-(

      You should also disable your mouse wheel. On Windows, you can do this in the Control Panel. The mouse wheel is too tempting if you leave it on but promise yourself not to use it. :-)
  • I'm sure you could get some of the same symptoms from LCDs. Much of the physical problems are associated with the posture in front of the computer - people tend to hunch over when the monitor is placed wrong. Exersise helps, especially ab work to keep you sitting up straight like your momma told you too.

  • Take it all away... (Score:5, Funny)

    by DarkHelmet ( 120004 ) <<ten.elcychtneves> <ta> <kram>> on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:22AM (#4606734) Homepage
    The more time an office worker toils in front of a computer, the more likely he or she is to suffer a host of physical, mental and sleep-related ills, Japanese researchers report.

    Yeah, and if I go out and have sex, I am more likely to catch the clap or something like that...

    I feel celibate enough by visiting this site 20 times a day. I feel pathetic enough oggling over female slashdotters who get karma points. Now you wanna take away my 21" CRT to boot.

    To hell with you!

  • There are ways to avoid that (Score:3, Informative)

    by Nicolas42 ( 194298 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:25AM (#4606745)
    First of all, if the problem stem from radiations coming from the screen, the farther you are from it, the less radiation you take. Since they must follow an inverse square law, even a few centimeters can make quite a difference.

    Next, and perhaps more important: do NOT strain when you are looking at the screen. I spend most of my time in front of a CRT, and don't have any troubles. Take some breaks, before you eyes hurt. Even closing your eyes and resting them for a few secoonds is often enough. You can also put your cupped palms on your eyes, not touching them, elbows resting on the desk, and imagine pleasant things. Also, look out of the window from time to time.

    Apart from these obvious things, there is a right way to look, and many wrong ones. Most people who have vision problems, headaches, eyestrain or pain are in this situation only because they use their eyes in a wrong way. If you want to know more about this, take a look at this site [iblindness.org].

    Unbelievable as it seems, I've cured myself of myopia, astigmatism and amblyopia in two years by using the method described in there (it's the Bates method). Besides, it's totally free, and this is a non profit site with no advertissement or such. Everything you need to know is in there

    Don't take my word for it, give it a fair try, and see for yourself.

    • First of all, if the problem stem from radiations coming from the screen, the farther you are from it, the less radiation you take. Since they must follow an inverse square law, even a few centimeters can make quite a difference.

      What?!? Ionizing (bad, what you'd probably call "nukular") radiation from CRTs is so infinitessimal that you are right now receiving a higher dose of ionizing radiation from the radioactive trace elements in the masonry of the building in which you sit. Eyestrain, yes. Harmful radiation? NO! Here's [ibm.com] a nice summary of the actual scientific truth about CRTs and harmful radiation. Get a little education, willya?
  • My feeling is that they are more likely to be caused by the fact that my job is boring, the workload is too high and most of my colleagues are dildo's. I think many jobs that require a person to sit in front of a monitor for more than 6-7 hours a day are probably monotonous and unsatisfying. So this accounts for the described symptoms better than any wierd electromagnetic radiation effects the post suggests (and would also mean that getting that ultra-sexy cinema display would _not_ help a bit) Of course this does not apply to people that do some actual creative work that they like to do (programmers, video artists, whatever) Well. Perhaps I should become a farmer or something.
  • My eyesight went a long time ago (I'd attribute that to long 132-character-column kermit sessions on a Commodore 64 hooked up to a 13" black and white TV set)... Last year I had lasik performed, now I'm 20/20. Cool.

    Just started noticing, tho, my "mouse shoulder" - it's always hurting really bad. Most likely due to the fact I'm a "low sitter", and my arm is always pointing up when using the mouse..

    Stiff joint there, .. hurts to raise it up past the normal mouse position...

    So, now, uh -- time for shoulder replacement? Is there a surgery for this as well? .. I can keep abusing myself without feeling bad about it if there's surgeries to keep putting me back together. Heh.
  • I work at a large computer company and I've scrounged up the first two 15" LCDs we sold and set them up with dual monitor support.
    Other guys on my team have newer, larger LCDs, but nobody has two sitting right next to each other like I do.
    I wonder if in a few years time I'll be markedly healthier than the rest of them. (not that I'm not already)

  • LCD Dodos (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Ektanoor ( 9949 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:47AM (#4606826) Journal
    Well I use to sit over a CRT for more than 10 hours a day average. I do this for more than 12 years. When I started using systematically computers I had -0.75 in both eyes, now -0.5 in the right one, the left one is nearly ok. For the last three years I also use LCD but that's a small fraction of CRT use.

    One specific LCD display was the cause for having a recall of an old desease I had caught in the tropics. I have a small problem with the iris in one of my eyes. It does not react quite well to light changes. Now there was one LCD from no one else but IBM which had some strange feature of "waving" the screen picture. Some people complained about some weirdnesses and headaches and the display was once sent for maintenance. However it kept "waving". So, after 5-6 people refused to work with a $2000 monitor, people gave me the happy news that I would work with it. I could hold no more than 1,5 week. My right eye turned into a red blob, like if a wasp had hit it. I had to pass an "holiday" of one month long till it got back to normal.

    So, this story is pure hype for LCD sellers.

  • unwarranted conclusion (Score:3, Insightful)

    by g4dget ( 579145 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:51AM (#4606839)
    So, they showed correlation, but that doesn't show that one causes the other. It seems to me quite plausible that people with back problems would choose a desk job rather than become construction workers. And people with sleep problems might also prefer computer jobs.
  • I haven't heard that term for years. Not since I was banging away on a Burrough's mainframe. They had great terminals with small keyboards that you could sit in your lap while you worked. If they went on the fritz, you just whacked the crap out of them. The Burrough's OS was written in Algol (which you can still find only in museums and my resume).

    Video Display Terminal. Makes me want to write a WFL again.

  • VDT != CRT. (Score:4, Informative)

    by alistair ( 31390 ) <(moc.padltoh) (ta) (riatsila)> on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @08:54AM (#4606851)
    Nothing in the article or journal they reference talks about the health effects of CRT monitors, the use of the term Visual Display Terminal (VDT) throughout the article seems to be a generic term for any type of monitor used with a PC, be they CRT or LCD.

    To quote from the article
    "While the type of computer work the study participants performed varied considerably, as did the size of the computer used and the work environment, "it should be emphasized that even under such working conditions, our results were extremely consistent over a 3-year period," Nakazawa and colleagues note."
    In a three year study with this number of participants, you sould expect a range of monitors to be used, but they show no exception for LCD users. You can see an abstract of the American Journal of Industrial Medicine study this was based on here [wiley.com] or sign up for a trial subscription which will allow you to download the whole study in pdf format.

  • Data base is 1995-97 (Score:3, Informative)

    by nniillss ( 577580 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @09:05AM (#4606903)
    This is not about LCDs and not about top-notch CRTs we have today. We are talking 15" or 17" and 60Hz refresh rate.

    Personally, however, I am very sensitive to flicker and lack of sharpness so that I really enjoy my (great) Dell 20" TFT.

    • Personally, in 1995, I was using a monitor with a 75 Hz refresh rate. Of course, I was using it in 640 X 480 mode and the video card wouldn't do 16-bit color in higher resolutions, but it worked pretty well for me. Even back then, people knew about flicker and many of us tried to avoid it at all costs.

      The main problem is sitting at a terminal for hours and hours at a time, not the screen itself. It's the positions we sit in, how close to the screen we are, and how little movement we make.
  • People have been warning about the effects of television for years.

    The only real difference in heath issues between the two is that you sit far closer to a computer(putting aside keyboard issues for now).

    We don't need more studies, we need some Common Sense!!!

  • This was a study with 25.000! ginie(?sp?) pigs. That's a hell of a lot for a study like this. Conclusion: something is most definitely going on. We don't know what (posture, the VDT [CRT and/or TFT!] factor, not enough exercise, just the eystrain which propagates through the system causing the other symptoms), but there is most definitely a measurable, detrimental effect.
    • Why does everyone assume it must be *one* of the above? How about ALL of them?

      Sitting in one spot will definitely fuck you up. We have predatory bodies, that need and were designed to be USED. Not exercising for years is like not using your car for years. Don't be surprised when it doesn't start, falls apart, and dies early.

      It's pretty much a known fact that a shitty CRT (with a low refresh rate -- first thing I do when I visit a client is bump the refresh rate to maximum, nothing will give you a headache faster than 60Hz) will cause headaches and eyestrain, and it is known that these two go hand-in-hand.
  • Okay, is this little bit of information non-obvious to anyone? Seriously, I take it for granted that people just know things like "Firing stray electrons at your face for hours at a time every day for years is not the most healthy thing you can do to yourself"
    But then people go and do studies- perfectly reasonable, you need to do such things in order to understand the exact effects. But then people go and act /surprised/ when the obvious answers come out. Get over it, people. Anyone with any sense already knew that CRTs werent quite as good for you as a delicious chocolate protein shake, and we've already started switching in large-part to LCDs and soon other technologies as well (OLEDs, Digital Ink, some other one that was mentioned last week too..)
    So it's been known, It doesnt really matter, and Most people are already going for alternatives for other reasons.

  • I'm not so sure (Score:2, Interesting)

    by estoll ( 443779 )
    I've been sitting in front of a CRT for 15 years and I'm sure the average is more than 5 hours/day. I can admit, most of those symptoms are true, but I highly doubt they are from the CRT.

    "including headache, low back pain, eyestrain, depression and anxiety."
    "complained of headache, eyestrain, joint pain and stiff shoulders."
    "lethargy, anxiety and "reluctance to go to work," as well as sleep-related problems including insomnia and fatigue"

    Get a new pair of glasses.

    Set up your computer ergonomically correct, get yourself a good chair, and sit up straight.

    Maybe you are just bored of your job.

    Sitting in a chair for 8 hours a day is going to fatigue your body. Get off your ass and workout after work.

    Proper ergonomical setup is the absolute key to computer work.

  • Some tips (Score:3, Informative)

    by tanveer1979 ( 530624 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @09:12AM (#4607264) Homepage Journal
    Well, monitors cant be avoided nor can sitting in front of computer. just take some precautions.

    Do situps(abdominal) after 3 hours of sitting.
    Sit straight, dont crouch
    Keep monitor at eye height
    Add more calcium to your diet
    If you develop back pain, dont IGNORE, go to the doc now!
    remind yourself to blink regularly, not blinking is dangerous
    Try using a screen(3M makes AFAIK)
    Every morning excerise wrists by using the grip builder or clenching unclenching
    Last but not the least, remember, health is wealth

  • Statistically significant != causation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by corvi42 ( 235814 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @09:59AM (#4607628) Homepage Journal
    Being currently embroiled in a statistics course at university, one of the things that has been recently drilled into my head is that a correlation of factors does not mean at all that the one factor causes the other.

    Firstly, the term "statistically significant" means that the relationship observed was unlikely to occur by chance. This does not mean that there is definitely a correlation, but that there is a probability of finding a correlation.

    Secondly even a very strong correlation when found, does not meant that there is causation, just that there is something interrelating those factors. For example there could be a strong correlation between a person's age and their owning a car. This does not mean that your growing up will cause you to own a car, or that owning a car makes you older. The two variables are interrelated in a system that involves many more complexe factors, but which yields results that keep certain observed factors grouped together. Finding actual causation is much more difficult.

    Thirdly, this type of study is called an observational study, where you send out questionaires and look for correlations. These types of studies have very unclear results generally, and really cannot show causation. There is no talk in the article, for example, of what types of people were responding to the study. Often in voluntary response studies you find that there is an unusually high number of people of one particular tendency who respond more readily than another, so that will skew the results. What you would need to do in order to find actual causation is a set of experiments, with control groups, to show an actual causal relationship between VDT use and health. What observational studies are useful for is drawing attention to a subject and saying we need more attention to this issue.

    Anyway, here I am rambling on to little point. They say in the article that they need to do more work, and that is my whole point. Its just that often people read articles like this and jump to conclusions like "my computer is going to make me crazy and depressive". So just relax and don't worry... yet!

  • Exposure to PHBs is bad for your health (Score:3, Funny)

    by lostboy2 ( 194153 ) on Wednesday November 06, 2002 @10:52AM (#4608086)
    In another study, researchers have discovered that the tech industry emits lethal amounts of PHBs[1].

    Common symptoms of exposure to PHBs includes irritability, fatigue, nausea and rectal leakage.

    If you suspect that you are one of the millions of workers who have been exposed, you are encouraged to visit your nearest BAR[2] for treatment.

    [1] Pointy-Haired Boss
    [2] Benevolent Alcohol Repository
  • There seems to be some confusion and misunderstanding as to the points in the article. First, VDT is a reference [late 80's - early 90's] to computer monitors [CRT's only].

    The problem outside of those taken into account (namely posture and lack of exercise) is radiation given off by the CRT. A study/test was done with computer users (mostly programmers) working 8 hour shifts for 5 days, then testing the blood. Rouleaux was found of the blood that linked in fashion of that found in Alzheimer's Disease. The low-level radiation that caused this would even pass through lead. The symptoms are those described in the article.

    The solution they found was sunlight. After the subjects spent the weekend outdoors, the condition disappeared.

    Afterwards, the reserchers suggested exposure to sunlight, indirectly -- that is, partial or full shade or northern exposure. Another option is to use a full-spectrum, natural light, which you can buy from various companies including OTT-Lite. [www.ott-lite.com]

    The research was headed by Dr. John Ott, who perfected time-lapse photography [Disney]. Dr. Ott was instrumental in having warnings and safety measures for radiation placed on televisions in the 1960's. He has demononstrated with different spectrums of light the growth, gender, and death of plants.

    'til dawn...
  • Studies show that we need more studies.

    They should have phrased this using Standard Boilerplate Recommendation #N: "Finally, we recommend that the preparers of this study receive greatly increased funding. This is the only feasible way forward."
  • I'm wopndering.. are most monitor problems the result of sitting to close to it? If I sit 16" from my 17" CRT, I get eye strain because of the protons pounding my eyes. If I sit back a few feet, the image becomes smaller but my eyes feel more comfortable.

    Could it be said that a 20" flat panel mounted to the wall above my desk would give me the same results as the 17" CRT without the strain? It'd be 2 ft away, that seems reasonable.

  • is a damned idiot.
  • The study was 95-97... Let me tell you, sitting in front of a 256 color, 12", 60 hz refresh, in an oak chair on a bad desk soaking in the florescent flicker ... YES things ***WERE*** bad. (but that ol' IBM keyboard was nice)


    Where has this guy been? While he's been sitting and wasting time in his lazy job, I now have a 19", gabillion color, flat screen crt (er... excuse me VDT - heaven forbid I use the venacular of the plebian masses; may academia save us all), at 100hz, with nice task lighting, split keyboard and ergo chair.


    What this study tells me is that he doesn't have the connections to get published, and finally someone gave him a break - perhaps just to humiliate him. I don't need any further research; I need a job like this guy has, where I {ahem} work for two years and they expected the results five years later. I'll take, even if I have to use his bad "VDT".


    I think I'll just automate this guy out of existence -- and I'll do it in 23 lines - of csh (just to be a bastard!)

  • Possibly True (Score:2, Informative)

    by leabre ( 304234 )
    I've been using computers since the Apple //. I'm a programmer but rarely work more than 40 hours a week.

    I used to have strong headaches (unusual for me) an ever increasing eye strain (I've always been sensitive to light but this was much more intense than I usually experience) and lack of sleep (I'm a night owl, but only when I use the computer too much)... and all kinds of other problems. Usually irritated and sore, strained eyes.

    I got a glare filter at first and the headaches went away but the straining didn't.

    Years go by. 3 months ago I get a Sony 17.1 LCD TFT. No more headaches. Instantly no more strainging. Good sleep patterns (probly an effect of me getting married in the same time frame as when I got the LCD)... my eyes are better, no more sore or irritated (unless I deprive myself of sleep)...

    Don't know exactly if it makes a different scientifically, but I do know that when I start to use my server for more than 30 mintues (CRT) I start to get "light-headed" and my eyes again strain and irritate until I turn away and it's all better again.

    I have experienced, I think there is a relation (with me) in this. Others I know that have programmed for 30 years or more have no eye problems. So it must be in the person or the monitor or other factors considered. Nonetheless, I think CRT/LCD differences are significant and make a diifference on the eye.

    Thanks,
    Me
  • I've been sitting in a front of a computer for the past 10 years (with occasional breaks for eating and sleeping), and developed chronic neck and back pain pretty early on.

    A few years ago, I started sitting on a Gymnic [gymnic.com] ball. Sure, people in the office make fun of me, but I have NO more neck pain. Still a little bit of back pain, but yoga and swimming keep that under control. Oh, and the insurance-paid massages help, too.

    The evolutionary path we've been on didn't lead us to these bodies to sit in one place for so long.
  • I know a lot of slashdotters don't read the articles, but the editors?

    They are talking about all types of computer monitors, hence the term video display terminal (VDT). They are not differentiating between LCD and CRT monitors, so your excuse to purchase a LCD just went out the window.

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