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Hardware

The Ethics of Desktop Chips Stuffed Into Laptop PCs 350

Posted by timothy from the mmm-a-little-toasty dept.
squareBIT writes "I recently found this article on THG about my SmartStep 250N having a desktop CPU stuffed into it. That's all fine and dandy. but when I paid for this thing, nobody told me it would run at HALF SPEED in battery mode. I don't recall there being any mention of this before I handed them thousands of dollars. Shouldn't there be some sort ethical ramifications put into action here? I feel so dirty ..." The least-satisfactory computer I've ever owned (won't even boot now) is a Toshiba with just such a chip -- wish I'd asked about that in the store.
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The Ethics of Desktop Chips Stuffed Into Laptop PCs More

The Ethics of Desktop Chips Stuffed Into Laptop PCs

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  • Contrary to this (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Overand ( 590318 )
    Contrary to this was the exciting thing Toshiba did with the Libretto 50CT when they ran out of Pentium 75 chips... they started putting in P120s downclocked to 75. Unfortunately I didn't get one of those, but I *was* able to OC my 75 to 100... too bad someone stepped on my libretto and cracked the screen, eh?

  • Caveat Emptor (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Inthewire ( 521207 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:16PM (#4595143)
    If you bought an old Mustang and found out it was a four cylinder POS and not an eight cylinder monster would you feel cheated? Or would you feel stupid for not having researched a major purchase? Just because you have the cash on hand doesn't mean you have to buy something this second - check it out first. The internet is a fantastic way to learn the true specs of a product, especially computers. Use it.

    • Re:Caveat Emptor (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Joe5678 ( 135227 )
      What if the Car had a sticker on it that said V8.

      Most end users aren't going to do research on the internet before they purchase a computer, they are going to go into the local computer store and buy one. If that laptop that they buy says it runs at one speed, but then doesn't, they're getting screwed, and it's not their fault because they didn't do research, it's false advertising.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion

        • Re:Caveat Emptor (Score:2, Insightful)

          by EvanED ( 569694 )
          So by your logic you wouldn't mind if I sold you aa computer that was advertised at 2.2 gHz but that was permanently and unalterably (at least w/o doing warranty-voiding and probably difficult alterations) underclocked to 2 mHz? After all, I didn't lie to you; it has a 2.2 gHz processor in it. I mean, I kind of doubt you ask "yes, it has a 2.2 gHz processor, but does it RUN at 2.2 gHz?" when you're ordering.

    • Caveat Emptor ... or Misleading Advertising ? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Anonymous Custard ( 587661 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:32PM (#4595459) Homepage Journal
      If you bought an old Mustang and found out it was a four cylinder POS and not an eight cylinder monster would you feel cheated?

      I would feel cheated if the dealer told me it was an eight cylinder mark2, and expected me to do extra research to find out that the mark2 eight cylinder engine would disable half the cylinders whenever I took it out of the driveway.

      The problem has two possible solutions (and I'd recommend a combination of both):
      1. Consumers should better educate themselves before buying, or
      2. Companies should avoid using misleading advertisements.

      Most folks see a laptop ad that says "2.0 Ghz processor featuring SpeedStep technology," but only come away believing that "this new 2.0 Ghz computer is .8 Ghz faster than my current 1.2 Ghz computer."

      We've seen similar naming problems with 3d graphics cards. Geforce4 MX (slower than Geforce 3ti) vs. Geforce 4 4600 (faster than 3ti), or Radeon 9700 vs. Radeon 9700 Pro. Sometimes "Pro" or "Deluxe" means better. Other times "Pro" or "Deluxe" means crappier. (Ok so deluxe usually means crappier, but you get my point)

      I think the main problem stems from the fact that computer performance cannot be fairly conveyed in a few convenient, marketable numbers. AMD has been combating that status quo with their XP naming scheme; Athlon Tbird 1.4 Ghz vs. new Athlon XP 1600 (runs at 1.4 Ghz) vs. Pentium 1.6 Ghz.

      So, who is responsible for getting the information to the customer that speedstep technology would significantly slow down their portable computer whenever they go on battteries?

      • Except this isn't about speedstep. (Score:5, Informative)

        by mindstrm ( 20013 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @05:48PM (#4595842)
        Speedstep is a fairly easy thing to research; they make a point of saying that laptops have it.. it's quite clearly labeled as such....
        And a speedstep enabled machine will let you run it at full clock all the time if you want to, easily. For instance, my laptop has a nice button on the windows system tray that lets me flip it between different cpu settings.

        In this case, the laptop does NOT have speedstep, it's a desktop processor, and the laptop is basically hardwired to run it at half speed when the AC is disconnected, the user has absolutely no way to change this behavior.

        It's not a common behavior, and one I think most readers here would not even know about until they looked in detail at those specific models of laptop.

        No, Mhz is not an all-encompasing speed indicator. but it's still quite releveant, and the difference between 1Ghz and 500Mhz is rather large, especially when you are forking out several thousand dollars.

    • Re:Caveat Emptor (Score:3, Interesting)

      by gl4ss ( 559668 )
      something along these lines has been going on the car industry for decades, mark car as 'sport' even tho it has (non performance) 1.6 4pot, gti, gts or anything along the lines of dealer sticker tuning.

      this has happened all the time in pc industry too for at least 8 years, oem puters like dell/ibm & likes are often dubbed to be fast and whatnot, while in reality they're not, like ibm aptivas that had l2 cache as option.

      in fact, this kinda marketing seems to be the defacto standard for mass products meant to be sold again to the customer after 3-4 years. 200w 'music power' stereo sets and likes of them are decaying proof of that.

    • Re:Caveat Emptor (Score:5, Interesting)

      by ruiner13 ( 527499 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @05:09PM (#4595575) Homepage
      If you bought an old Mustang and found out it was a four cylinder POS and not an eight cylinder monster would you feel cheated? Or would you feel stupid for not having researched a major purchase? Just because you have the cash on hand doesn't mean you have to buy something this second - check it out first. The internet is a fantastic way to learn the true specs of a product, especially computers. Use it.

      Actually, I read a while back that auto manufacturers are developing a "speed-step" like engine management system for cars, if it isn't out already (can't find articles now...). Basically, when you are cruising along at moderate speeds, and don't need all your rated power from your engine, it doesn't send fuel or spark to certain cylinders to save gas. If you step on the throttle, it activates them again. I think it was Mercedes-Benz who was playing with this. I might be wrong, but I think the corvette might have something similar? Anyway, it does exist, at least on paper for now.

  • Cyrix (Score:3, Funny)

    by Natchswing ( 588534 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:16PM (#4595148)
    A CPU that only runs half as fast as you expect. Wouldn't that be a Cyrix or an AMD k5?
  • If the manufacturer and/or retailer is not going to take the responsibility and state things like this up front, then it's up to the consumers (us) to spread the word to each other in whatever way we can. Forums like Slashdot should go a long way towards educating the general public, and enlightening potential buyers. If "they're" not going to do it, we will...

  • Caveat Emptor (Score:4, Insightful)

    by glrotate ( 300695 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:20PM (#4595164) Homepage
    If I spend $50 on something I want to know exactly what I'm getting. If you spend $2000, and are this unimformed than you deserve what you get. You must not have read the specs very closely, or compared it with other models, or read many reviews. I guess you won't make the same mistake twice.

    • Re:Caveat Emptor (Score:3, Interesting)

      by CoyoteGuy ( 524946 )
      The problem is... On our long road to the perfect society, we are trying to eliminate weasels and frauds. That is why we have consumer protection laws. In your mind, people should not have a legal recourse if they are obviously mislead (either unintentional or intentional). In my mind, if I buy a house, and they build my wall studs out of lego bricks instead of building grade 2x4 and 2x6, that I should have no legal recourse? Come on...

      • Your analogy is bad (Score:3, Informative)

        by mekkab ( 133181 )
        This is labed as a "SmartStep" computer.
        Do a little research on the net.

        FROM Dell's WEbsite [dell.com]:
        Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery.

        You have no legal recourse when they make full disclosure.

        These are manufactured in bulk, not like a house. Besides, you wouldn't actually buy your house without a final walkthrough! Your legal recourse would be to not buy the house!

    • Re:Caveat Emptor (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Idarubicin ( 579475 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:15PM (#4595389) Journal
      You must not have read the specs very closely, or compared it with other models, or read many reviews.

      I dunno, it seems that the parent poster didn't read the article. From THG:

      Even more annoying is the fact that Dell documents this energy-saving feature neither on its German- language homepage nor anywhere in the handbook. The English homepage, in the meantime, features a footnote: "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery." This is pretty well hidden, however.

      So right off the top, if you're German, then Dell isn't even going to tell you that they're selling you a desktop processor that's automatically crippled when running on battery. If you're English-speaking, then you still have to have very good eyes. The "power management features" quote is buried in a fine-print footnote at the bottom of the technical specs page. Further, nowhere on the pages for the Speedstep 250N is the actual slower clock speed noted. At what point is the footnote no longer sufficient? On battery power, the processor drops to 0.7 volts and 300 MHz. Can I complain yet? I'm getting great battery life, after all...

      The parent poster is correct--when making a major purchase, it is a good idea to read product reviews. What we have here, however, is a case of deliberately deceptive (and possibly fraudulent) marketing. It's like advertising an automobile as a V8--but four of the cylinders stop firing whenever you're not in your driveway. If Dell is going to advertise a 2.2 GHz notebook, then it should be able to function as a 2.2 GHz notebook even when it's not on my desk at home. Dell should reasonably be expected to realize that their notebook computers are going to frequently be used on battery power--the clock speeds cited should be 2.4/1.2 GHz at the top of the page, not 2.2 GHz with a tiny footnote. Anything less--even if barely legal--is still slimy.

      As an aside, many Toshiba and Compaq laptops allow you to change a control panel setting to say, "Damn the batteries, full speed ahead!" or words to that effect. Consumers familiar with this friendlier incarnation of SpeedStep may be in for a rude surprise.

  • They DID mention it to you! (Score:3, Funny)

    by Metalhead01 ( 587101 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:23PM (#4595173) Homepage
    If you pull out all the papers they gave you, and look at the REALLY REALLY REALLY fine print, it's there. Right next to the spot where you agree to give them your soul upon purchasing it.

  • Caveat Emptor! (Score:4, Informative)

    by mekkab ( 133181 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:23PM (#4595174) Homepage Journal
    Did you bother to figure out what SmartStep/SpeedStep means?

    If you did a modicum of research you would know that you run at a far slower speed in battery mode.

    Now Toshiba DOES allow you to fix this setting (in the control panels) but this should not come as a surprise to any educated consumer.

    When I was shopping around for a laptop for my wife we came across a darling little Toshiba Portege- and one of the first things mentioned in the CNET review even mentioned "Mobile Pentium III with Intel SpeedStep technology" and went on to explain what SpeedStep meant.

    So when my wife types away in class if she can't find an outlet she can expect it to be slow. Easy Solution.

    O.T. P.S.: is it my connect, or is slashdot slow today?

    • Here is INTEL's LINK: (Score:5, Insightful)

      by mekkab ( 133181 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:27PM (#4595192) Homepage Journal
      This is a clear explanation of SpeedStep [intel.com], it says as clear as day "You 500 mhz chip will operate at 300 mhz speeds"

      I don't mean to give anyone a hard time but if you are going to spend more than $100 (or 0x64 dollars for that stupid hex guy) you would save a lot of aggrevation by doing some research.

    • O.T. P.S.: is it my connect, or is slashdot slow today?

      Well, Duh. The obvious reason is because somebody at OSDN tripped over the power cord and they are running at half-speed on batteries.

      Either that, or it's that pesky MySQL acting up again...

    • And DELL's Link (Score:3, Informative)

      by mekkab ( 133181 )
      From Dell's online ordering [dell.com]: Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery.

      There is no excuse for not reading this.
      If you wonder "Gee, how much does it limit processor speed?" You should put down your credit card and start researching.

      • Re:And DELL's Link (Score:5, Informative)

        by Blkdeath ( 530393 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @09:47PM (#4597124) Homepage
        From Dell's online ordering [dell.com]: Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery.

        There is no excuse for not reading this.
        If you wonder "Gee, how much does it limit processor speed?" You should put down your credit card and start researching.

        When I bought my laptop (a Toshiba Satellite [snerk.org], which I'm exceptionally pleased with, FWIW) I asked questions, compared it with the laptops in the store, and understood what the differences were. I also got assurance from the sales person that I could return it within 30 days for a FULL MONEY BACK REFUND if I was not satisfied with the purchase. For the next 29 days, I proceeded to, figuritively speaking, beat the snot out of it. I used it on battery, experimented with power saving features, read the manual cover to cover, exploited all the features of it, installed Linux (to the point where every piece of hardware was fully functional). In short, I made sure that my laptop suited all of my needs, and if not, that I had recourse so that I could exchange it for one that did.

        It's a year and a half later (halfway through my warranty - eep!) and I'm still just as happy with it as the day I got it.

        Point being; I did my research beforehand (it was actually about 2 months before I bought it. As a result of my patience, I got an extra 200MHz, 5GB of HDD space, and double the RAM), then I made sure I was satisfied with my purchase before it was too late.

        For all who've said 'Caveat Emptor' - good on you. Merely having a credit card isn't a license to spend money like it's going out of style. Spend wisely, think before you buy, and most important of all pay attention.

        (And yes, Slashdot was slow for me all day on a 3MB connection)

    • Yeah, Slashdot is painfully slow here in PA. On a T1 too.
    • RE: O.T. P.S.

      Its not just you, its slow for me to. Though I can't tell you why. Maybe Slashdot has jet lag from moving out west?

  • My thoughs (Score:2, Interesting)

    by nuggz ( 69912 )
    Well if you can't make it run full speed, and they didn't tell you, return it.
    The article says they clearly state this is the case, maybe they changed something, or you didn't look very hard.

    Either way I'd return it, and ask for one that runs full speed.

    I think this is generally a good idea, the way I use a laptop it would work well. When I am at a proper desk, I do the serious "work" that takes more CPU power, and I'm generally plugged in. When I'm using batteries, it would typically be less demanding applications (reading email, simple quick work in ofice software) and I don't need all that speed. Realistically most computers are overpowered for the work they need to do. Here at work I have a 350MHz Pentium machine, and it works fine.

  • 1. It is called SmartStep. That should have been a major clue.
    2. Common sense would tell you that a desktop processor running at full speed would drain a battery far too quickly.

    • Re:I can't be very sympathetic. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Cutriss ( 262920 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:57PM (#4595324) Homepage
      2. Common sense would tell you that a desktop processor running at full speed would drain a battery far too quickly.

      How does this apply to Apple and its PowerBooks/iBooks, which get far greater battery life than PC laptops? Sorry, but that's quite a broad generalization you've got there.
      • The RISC based PowerPC designs run a lot cooler and more energy efficient than any recent Intel/AMD chips. That's why there's no 'mobile' versions of those processors.

        Of course, some smartass is going to say that Macs are running at half speed already. All I can say about that is that my 3 year old iMac runs everything I need pretty good, save for 3D games.

      • I have daily experience with hundreds of apple and PC laptops (about 50/50) and honestly the apple's batteries dont last much longer then a quality pc laptop. Apple designs with battery power in mind from the start, many consumer and high performance pc laptops couldn't care less. Some of these will have battery life's 30 minutes. When compared with similiar laptops the Apple battery life isn't anytihng to write home about. I still think the case designs on the Apple laptops are worlds ahead of their pc counterpart.
        • many consumer and high performance pc laptops couldn't care less. Some of these will have battery life's 30 minutes. When compared with similiar laptops the Apple battery life isn't anytihng to write home about.

          Well, considering that my Apple Titanium PowerBook gets 4 to 5 hours of use consistently out of a full battery, I would say that's something to write home about. There is quite a difference between having 4 hours of use and having 30 minutes of use.

          The great thing is that even with high-drain activities, such as viewing a DVD, you regularly get 2.5 hours of battery time. I'd love to see a similar high-end non-Apple laptop do that. There might be one or two other laptops out there that can do that with only a single stock battery, but I'm sure that they are rare.
    • It is called SmartStep. That should have been a major clue.

      I thought that meant it was optimized for running a NeXT platform on!

  • My laptop... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by program21 ( 469995 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:26PM (#4595188) Homepage Journal
    has the same feature (Compaq Armada E500), although you need to enable it by installing a SpeedStep (I believe is the name) 'applet' from Intel (it's a PIII chip).
    I don't see why you would need it to run at the full speed on battery anyway. If you're doing something CPU-intensive enough to need the full speed of the chip, then you can almost certainly plug it in; for most other things, half speed is more than enough and doesn't even get noticed. It's not like you're only running with half the RAM active or something like that.

    In fact, you mentioned that you saw it on THG. Did you notice it at all yourself when using the laptop? Or did it run just as well, and you just like getting offended at these sort of things (which seems like exactly what you're doing here).

    • My laptop... has the same feature (Compaq Armada E500), although you need to enable it by installing a SpeedStep


      No it doesn't... did you even read the article? Mobile chips have the Speedstep function, that function is not on desktop chips, so to save some money Dell is using a some hack to the bios to effectively throttle the desktop CPU.

      I also bet your laptop doesn't lose half of it's speed, my 700 MHz PIII goes down to 550 when on battery mode, not 350.

      • At some point writing I must have forgotten that it was a desktop CPU in the article. Point conceded :)
        You're also right about the half thing, my 800MHz goes down to 550 or 600, I believe.

  • While I don't think any manufacturer specifies the speed of the machine to get the maximum amount of battery life, this article does not tell us what the speed of the mobile P4 is while it is in energy saving mode...

    There are many reasons why Dell wants to put a desktop CPU in the machine, why don't they give the user the option of running it at full speed while on battery sacrificing battery life. I know my Apple PowerBook gives me several options on energy consumption while on battery, including running full out.

    Anyway, no manufacturer states the speed of their machine while on battery. They usually state the battery life depends on configuration and use. Dell is no different. If you go to the specifications page on the 250N [dell.com] you will see that it states that Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery. It's not like they are hiding this information from the purchaser, learn to read the fine print. I don't think that this is enough to get that excited about...

  • Toshiba troubles? You're not alone. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by vaxer ( 91962 ) <<sylvar> <at> <vaxer.net>> on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:29PM (#4595197) Homepage
    A friend of mine went through hell trying to get any customer service from Toshiba [vaxer.net]. Even when they finally agreed that he deserved a replacement, he got censored (and censured) for telling other customers [vaxer.net].
    • Dell seems to be no better [cnet.com]...

      however My experience with toshiba was great. I dropped my wifes laptop with the 802.11b card sticking out and that shoved the PCMCIA card slot deep into the casing- I had bought the extended warranty (the laptop is 2 years old) and in under 24 hours I had a new system board. It seems like they have great service to me!
      • But overall, the number of happy users is far more than the number of disgruntled ones.

        I have an Inspiron 8200. My dad has an 8000. We have had stellar results with our laptops.

        I'm a regular on the Dell support forums (helping ppl out) - For every guy that comes in ranting about Dell's crappy support, 3-5 people reply to him with, "For one, this is the wrong place. Use the customer support forum if you have customer service complaints. FYI, when I had ,Dell happily shipped me a " - Yes, some people who had problematic DVD drivers were given not only a replacement, but an UPGRADE..
  • Yeah, all of Intel's mobile chips have this so-called Speed-Step "technology". An unusual way to describe a core clock throttle, but alright. When you're plugged into the wall, you run at the chip's advertised core clock, but use battery power and it scales down to some fraction of that.

    Intel doesn't even advertise the lower core clock speed anymore for the P4, but on the P3-M 1 GHZ, the technology dropped the chip to 733 MHz when on battery power.

    Pentium4 2.2 GHz tech specs. [intel.com]

  • just a whole lotta whining (Score:3, Interesting)

    by l33t-gu3lph1t3 ( 567059 ) <`moc.liamtoh' `ta' `61legna_hcra'> on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:34PM (#4595220) Homepage
    It's a *WELL* publicized fact that laptops use power management in order to extend battery life. I mean, people deliberately go out and buy ultra-low voltage P3s with speedstep because they need the battery life...

    Besides, it's pretty well known that *most* laptop action occurs in the *indoors* near "power outlets".

  • you have to be kidding. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by gurps_npc ( 621217 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:34PM (#4595221) Homepage
    I work in IT for a law firm. If any lawyer came up to me and asked for a laptop that did NOT have this feature (or to turn it off), I would laugh in their face. How hard is it to understand: 1) Computers have so much speed now that only the most graphic intensive game or the most complex calculations are going to come close to pushing their limit. 2) Batteries have not kept up with chips, and thus have laughable capacities for the things you use. 3) Unless you carry spare fully charged batteries with you, you have to be a moron not to use the incredibally helpfull feature that you are complaining about. Even if you are playing Doom, it is far better to play Doom for 2 hours with a slight jerkiness and speed reduction, than to lose power and have to kill the game 1 hour into your 2 hour train ride.
    • Even if you are playing Doom, it is far better to play Doom for 2 hours with a slight jerkiness and speed reduction, than to lose power and have to kill the game 1 hour into your 2 hour train ride.

      I too work for a law firm. It's far better to have the computer setup that that user CAN NOT even get Doom on their computer! Different environments call for different configurations I guess. Hell, I'd volunteer to beta test the Doom software push in the environment! It was a little rough switching to a lockdown mode a few years ago but we had support from many of the main partners. It's the norm now, there are very very few exceptions and no one complains anymore.
  • ...ethical ramifications put into action here...

    Unfortunately in todays corporate world, there hardly exists such a thing as ethical ramifications. Seems this will only come into play after death, when you have your final exit interview with the main PHB.

  • No difference between mobile/desktop CPU (Score:5, Informative)

    by t0qer ( 230538 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:36PM (#4595228) Homepage Journal
    There's not a whole lotta difference between "mobile" and desktop processors other than packaging.

    Desktop CPU's use PGA's that were designed for socketed use. The extra 4 millimeters from the pins sticking out is worth it because it means the CPU can be swapped in and out. Flexibility is the goal here.

    Mobile processors usually come in a BGA package because they're soldered directly to the motherboard via wave solder, or UV cured solder. Since they don't have that extra 4 millimeters of pins sticking out the bottom, their profile is smaller than that of a desktop processor.

    Right now though, it seems a lot of manufacturers are at least trying to make the newer laptops as flexible as a desktop by offering expansion busses to replace the laptops video card, processor, ram ect.

    Remember 7 or 8 years ago when you wanted to get laptop memory? Everytime you wanted to upgrade you would have to order a custom stick because the manufacturers were all doing their own thing. Back then they thought they had to keep every vertical market on their laptop to themselves. There were a few exceptions to this rule (chembook was one of the first to start using standard desktop parts in their laptops)

    I don't think it's a bad thing either... Sorta lets you get more life outta your laptop.
    • Until about a month or two ago, I thought laptops were pretty much the ideal desktop machine if you could afford them - OK, their expandability tends to suck, but they're nearly as fast as desktops, quiet, have un-flickery screens etc., and they're portable into the bargain. About a month or two ago, I joined the semi-official student tech support team at my college, and I've dealt with two overheating laptops since then. Is it just bad luck, or do modern laptops have trouble running their CPUs at full speed?

    • Re:No difference between mobile/desktop CPU (Score:5, Informative)

      by afidel ( 530433 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:12PM (#4595378)
      Um actually the CPU's are very different. Mobile P4's for instance use a lower core voltage. Other generations of mobile Intel cpu's have been based on smaller processes then their desktop brethren, or they have had fewer functional units. Another difference is speedstep, the mobile cpu's have the speedstep circuitry built in, the desktop cpu's do not, hence this article. For everyone that can't read what happens when you use a speedstep chipset with a non speedstep cpu is that the cpu gets stuck in the lower speed processing mode and cannot return to normal processing state without a reboot whereas the mobile cpu's will return to full speed with a simple software controll.
    • Maybe in the past, mobile CPUs were soldered-on BGAs, but in most recent laptops (Dell Inspiron 8x00, probably most other recent Dells), even the "Mobile" CPU is replacable. In the I8x00 series, you can even upgrade the video card (this made Slashdot a while ago).
    • actually,

      Mobile cpus have a pretty good bit of modificaton over desktops cpus, primarily designed to reduce heat. cuz the cooler it runs, the faster it can run safely in a laptop enclosure.

      1. basic voltage reductions/optimizations
      2. some mobile cpus can switch off idle units
      3. mobile cpus generally have different on chip
      cache sizes than their desktop equivalents
      4. the ability to change speeds/voltages on the fly

      Tom's Hardware [tomshardware.com] talks about some of this stuff in this article.

  • Switch Ad (Score:5, Funny)

    by ericdano ( 113424 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:47PM (#4595282) Homepage
    Oh, this sounds like PERFECT fodder for a Apple Switch Ad [apple.com].

    "Like, I went to the store to buy this laptop, and uh, like I got it home, and figured out that if you didn't have it plugged into the wall, it runs like, um, half speed. *insert slow wierd sound here*

    So, I returned it and bought an Apple iBook. I unplugged it from like the wall, and *insert strange zippy sound here* it was still running like at full speed.

    I'm John, and I'm a certified Pron watcher."

    • Re:Switch Ad (Score:2, Informative)

      by skribble ( 98873 )

      Two things...

      First, Megahertz Myth aside, an iBook running at full speed would still likely be slower the a P4-2Ghz system running at half speed... Remember iBooks still us G3 processors. (Now iBooks have up to 6 hour battery life, run a better OS, and are just cool... but from a performance standpoint...)

      Second, Macs can also run with reduced processor performace to add battery life... It's an option in the OS X 'Energy Saver' control panel. No idea if it's default or not.

  • Here's an interesting article on this. It's by a seller of discount laptops so it's a little biased, but still interesting. Main points-- (1) a desktop CPU is cheaper, (2) many users have their laptops plugged in so power consumption is less relevant and (3) even desktop CPU's use less power than older CPUs.

    http://www.powernotebooks.com/P4_Truth.php3

    WILL

  • Battery life is pathetic anyway (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Junior J. Junior III ( 192702 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:50PM (#4595292) Homepage
    Laptops are "portable" computers, but not really "mobile". The distinction, as I see it, lies in the fact that even with a fully charged batteries, many laptops don't give very useful operating times unless you're plugged in to an AC outlet.

    Assuming you can find an outlet wherever you're likely to want to use your PC, laptops can be a decent choice. But without access to an AC outlet, you're not going to find a laptop to be useful for more than 30-40 minutes or so.

    I can't tell you how many times I've had my laptop just shut down with no warning because the AC cable was loose and I didn't notice, and I'd only been using the computer for maybe 20-30 minutes.

    So that's why I say a laptop is portable, but not mobile. You can't really go that far with one while it's umbilical is plugged in, so it's not really fair to call a laptop mobile.

    And, if you're going to be plugged in 90% + of the time you're using it, then you're not going to have to deal with the reduced performance issue anyway.
    • Get a laptop with a Transmeta chip. I have a Fujitsu P-2046 with an 800 mhz Crusoe, and it goes all day (they rate it at 14 hours, I get around 10 with full brightness, and close to 15 when it's closed and just playing MP3's). They use a similar technology to Intel's speedstep, except that it will scale all the way up to 100% of rated speed if needed (I don't think Intel's will do this). Also, you can select how high you want it to scale (in Linux, there's a simple utility to do this).
      • Intel CPUs can scale up to 100% speed.

        Unfortunately, they can only scale down to a preset speed (In fact, they can only go to that speed or max, nothing in between). IMO that speed is still too high - 1.2 GHz on my P4-M 1.7.

        The Transmeta advantage is that it can adjust its clock speed far LOWER and in finer increments.
    • 30 to 40 minutes? you need a new laptop, my friend.

      My TiBook can watch just under 2 DVDs, full-screen, before the battery goes out. That's probably around 3 1/2 hours or so. Enjoy your "portable" computer, I'll enjoy my "mobile" laptop.

    • Obviously, you don't own a Fujisu P-2000 [fujitsupc.com]. With 2 batteries attached, I get 14 hours of battery life with a notebook that weighs under 4 pounds. Granted, its no speed demon, but it certainly fits anyone's definition of a mobile pc.
    • I haven't used a PC laptop since about 1994 - that was a 33 MHz Pentium with 16 MB of RAM and a monochrome screen which would run for a little over an hour on its battery, and that was with every screen-dimming, hard-disk unspinning, power-saving option I could find turned on.

      Every Mac laptop I've used since then would run for at least two hours on one battery. My current 500 MHz iBook runs for just under three hours on a charge, will sleep for over a week unplugged, has a wake-from-sleep time of two seconds, and can be safely run completely to battery exhaustion - with its last gasp it dumps the whole processor state to disk, so if you then plug it in and hit the boot button, you come up exactly where you left off.

      I knew things were bad in the PC universe regarding power consumption, sleep and wake, and state preservation, but is it really that bad? Has battery life really not improved for PC laptops since 1993?
    • My Toshiba Protege 2000 with both batteries lasts for about five hours. I used to sit outside the Uni with wireless during weekends (no coverage in the building we had access to during weekends, doh!). 5 hours with Wireless enabled (and usually hdd spinning because I'm downloading something), that's good enough for me.

      I'll get more than that when I'm only playing games, and you won't believe how many hours it'll play mp3s if I put on a playlist and let the screen black out (that's the real power drain in this one).

      Oh and speedstep is a great technology. Dynamic switching makes it transparent for most tasks, if not I can configure it as I want it. Nothing like P3-175MHz @ 0.6W or thereabout (750MHz @ 10W on full power) for when you're just idling.

      Kjella

  • Slashdot and Speed Step? (Score:5, Funny)

    by SoCalChris ( 573049 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:54PM (#4595310) Journal
    With as slow as Slashdot is running today, did someone enable Speed Step on the Slashdot servers? Maybe Cowboy Neal unplugged the servers so they are running in battery mode!
  • Look at it this way, when you're on power, you've got a better chip than the equivalent mobile CPU, right?

    And the control panel for SpeedStep (under Windoze at least) lets you turn it off and burn through your batteries anyway.

    And how often are you away from power? Cars and planes, it's only $100 or so for a DC adapter. Camping? Unless you're backcountry, you've probably got an accessible outlet, even if it's next to the sink ;^). At the beach? Sand plays hob with your CD drive -- which won't last long on battery power either.

    Frankly, what are all those cycles for? I can only think of a few things:
    * Gaming -- but if you've got broadband to play, isn't there a power outlet around?
    * Digital photos and video -- snag some extra batteries -- if you're video editing, you've got a backpack full of gear anyway.
    * Warskating?
    * Serving Oggs from a park bench?
    * Digital capture at the Two Towers premiere?

  • Quite Obvious (Score:2, Interesting)

    by UTPinky ( 472296 )
    Forgive me if I come off sounding snide, but you really should have done your research. Intel has at least for the last 4 years been differentiating between their desktop processors and their mobile processors. You can always tell this because laptop processors are distinguished with the word "mobile". It's not that tricky, and is why I waited a few extra monthes for laptops to start using the mobile processors in their laptops instead of the full-blown model

  • you guys are missing the point (Score:5, Informative)

    by jest3r ( 458429 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @03:56PM (#4595320)
    The point is Dell is using desktop CPU's in their SmartStep model laptops - and as a result these laptops don't behave like you would expect from a laptop using a 'Speedstep' compliant chip.

    Desktop CPU's are not compatible with Speedstep technology (Speedstep reduces speed - but allows the user to bypass this if need be within software)

    The Dell SmartStep laptop actually reduces your speed by half in battery mode and this CANNOT be altered via software .. or buttons on the keyboard etc ..

    Dell makes no mention of this fact on their website, product brochures, or any other material you would read before purchasing the laptop.

    • No, we aren't. (Score:4, Informative)

      by SEE ( 7681 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @06:16PM (#4596079) Homepage
      Dell makes no mention of this fact on their website, product brochures, or any other material you would read before purchasing the laptop

      Actually, Dell does. On the product web page.

      Look [dell.com] at the actual web page detailing the computer.

      First, see footnote #2. "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery."

      Then go up the page to where it has "Learn More" next to Processors, and click on it. That explains the difference between a Penitum 4 and a Pentium 4-M. Look at the "Details" tab and note the footnote on the Pentium 4 speeds that says "Power management features limit processor speed when running on battery."

      Now, finally, note that there's no M after the processor name in the specs.

      What does this mean? Dell both said that speed is reduced when running on battery AND that it isn't the mobile processor. All on the product web page.

  • Laptop lemons (Score:3, Interesting)

    by neoshmengi ( 466784 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:00PM (#4595333) Journal
    I shelled out big bucks for my "desktop replacement" Toshiba satellite 5000 which has a desktop PIII 1000GHz chip. Unfortunately, the processor runs so hot that it constantly overheated and powered down. The BIOS "fix" clocks down the CPU when it gets hot (which is always) so it doesn't shut down spontaneously any more, but now I have a VERY expensive pentium two equivalent. When you apply the BIOS fix it changes the BIOS so that the install disks which contain the gimped version of your Win OS won't unstall on the "unrecognized laptop" until you take it in to an authorized dealer.

    Not to mention that this laptop doesn't even have a standard bios that you can configure. It's some wierd proprietary thing that lets you make a password and select boot priority and that's it.

    The sound is problematic too because it runs through ACPI, which is fine for windows, but very difficult if you want to run linux. So for the one in four linux distros that can actually boot up on this laptop, so far none of them have sound that works.

    Toshiba won't do a thing to help you when you get these headaches. I would stay away from buying a brand new laptop until you can do a little research to see what sort of problems will crop up.

  • Toshiba Satelite (Score:4, Informative)

    by n-baxley ( 103975 ) <nate&baxleys,org> on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:07PM (#4595357) Homepage Journal
    I just recently bought a Toshiba Satelite 1200 and have been pretty happy with the performance. It has a power managment console that allows you tell it what mode to run in. In the full power mode you run your processor at full power. One of the default modes is power conserve mode where you processor runs at lower and lower speeds as the power drains. However you can run the full power mode when running on just batteries, you just don't get as much battery life. I still find I get close to the advertised 3 hours. My two biggest complaints about the Toshiba is that the bottom tends to get hot, and there is no docking station port. All in all, really happy.

  • Many issues with "desktop chips" (Score:5, Informative)

    by BWJones ( 18351 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:08PM (#4595365) Homepage Journal
    As I recall the first company to use the "smartstep" approach to portable computing was Apple with the 5300 series. However their solution then (even better with OS X) was only to run the CPU at what was required. If you were on the road and needed all the CPU horsepower, you got it, but inbetween clicks and hard drive activity, the CPU throttled down.

    As to the chips themselves, lower power RISC chips actually can be used in both desktops and laptops and you don't have to deal with this sort of engineering workaround of marketing. The other issue with using many desktop chips in laptops is heat. For instance, my mother purchased an Wintel laptop with a desktop chip that was designed with a huge fan on the bottom of the computer, so that if you actually placed it on your lap, you would block the fan and the laptop would overheat and shutdown. I bought her a Powerbook (the first Mac she ever owned) and she has never gone back to the Wintel crowd. It's thin, it's light and she always has all the power she needs battery or AC power.

  • It is marketroid disinformation - but only just.
    A laptop is blatantly intended for mobile use, which implies extended battery-mode use. The processor speed should not be advertised assuming that the machine is plugged in to a wall.
    This is a little bit like advertising a car as 'the safest in the world' and subsequently discovering that they meant 'the safest in the world when standing still in an empty parking lot'.
    OK, extreme example, but you know what I mean.
    And to add to another earlier post:
    OT PS: Yes, /. is real slow today. Dunno why. Taco?

  • Actually... (Score:4, Informative)

    by msaulters ( 130992 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:23PM (#4595423) Homepage
    As I understand it, the SmartStep systems with desktop CPUs are targeted toward a business-traveller market that just wants a portable high-power system. They don't care about battery life, since they can plug it in when they're in a conference room, with projector attached. What they want is raw performance. As has already been noted, you'd do well to research your purchases in the future.

  • NOT LEGAL ADVICE (Score:5, Informative)

    by Compulawyer ( 318018 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @04:37PM (#4595476)
    This post is not legal advice and does not create an attorney-client relationship. If you need legal advice, you should consult with a competent attorney who is licensed to practice in your state (or other jurisdiction outside the U.S.).

    That being said, every state in the US has a version of the Uniform Commercial Code. Section 2-313 deals with Express Warranties. Any affirmation of fact or promise or description of the goods creates an express warranty which is breached if the goods sold and delivered do not conform to the factual affirmation or description or if the promise made is broken. For example, if the processor speed is labeled as 1 GHz, the consumer is entitled to rely on the 1 GHz measure. A split 1 GHz/500 MHz ration when running on AC/battery does not conform to the affirmation of fact (processor speed) made by the merchant and could be said to breach the express warranty.

    Section 2-314 is the Implied Warranty of Merchantability. The warranty is created simply by virtue of making the sale. If the goods sold are not such that would pass without objection in the trade then the warranty has been breached. Here, the argument would be that the industry creates mobile versions of chips for laptops because of battery life concerns. If someone wants to depart from that practice and use a speed slowdown to reduce power consumption, then that fact must be disclosed and agreed-to by the consumer prior to the sale. Otherwise, the consumer is entitled to rely on the standard practice when making the purchase. Such undisclosed use of "slowed" desktop processors would not pass without objection in the trade and could be said to breach the implied warranty of merchatability.

    Additionally, virtually every state has a "Little FTC Act" or Consumer Protection statute. These statutes outlaw "unfair or deceptive" business practices. Breaches of warranty are usually automatic violations of these statutes. The penalty is usually up to three times your damages (for example, the cost of your laptop times 3) plus attorneys fees if you hire a lawyer.

  • ... check out this ad [bestbuy.com] from Best Buy's site. It's for a Toshiba laptop. Have a look at this monitor spec:

    "16" SXGA Personal Theatre active-matrix display with 2048 x 1536 maximum resolution"

    To the uninitiated, it looks like the LCD panel built into the laptop runs at 2048 by 1546. It does not. It only runs at that resolution on an external monitor. The laptop's physical resolution is 1280 by 1024. The only reason one would know that actual number of pixels on the screen is if they know what 'SXGA' is.

    That's pretty low.
  • Dell laptops and many other laptops have been speed stepping to improve battery life for a long time. If you didn't know this you didn't do any research before buying a laptop. You should of realized this the first time you used the laptop. Where I work I got a new Dell about a year ago. It was real obvious the speed differece the first time I undocket the computer. I like the feature, I don't mind the speed difference for the battery life.

    Next you will start bitching about how hot the laptop runs, because it doesn't use a mobile CPU. That is the big issue with putting regular P4's in a laptop.

    Do your homework!
  • Recently they started putting a interesting "disclaimer" on the laptops they sell (I checked specs pdfs for 1905 and 5202 series, but it seems like they all got one appended):

    Central Processing Unit ("CPUE Performance Disclaimer:
    CPU performance in your computer product may vary from specifications
    under the following conditions:
    use of certain external peripheral products
    use of battery power instead of AC power without changing factory
    pre-set power management settings
    use of certain multimedia games or videos with special effects
    use of standard telephone lines or low speed network connections
    use of complex modeling software, such as high end computer aided
    design applications
    use of computer in areas with low air pressure (high altitude >1,000
    meters or >3,280 feet above sea level)
    use of computer at temperatures outside the range of 5C to 35C
    (41F to 95 F) or >25C (77F) at high altitude (all temperature
    references are approximate).
    Under some conditions, your computer product may automatically shut-down.
    This is a normal protective feature designed to reduce the risk of lost
    data or damage to the product when used outside recommended
    conditions. To avoid risk of lost data, always make back-up copies of data
    by periodically storing it on an external storage medium. For optimum
    performance, use your computer product only under recommended
    conditions. Read additional restrictions under "Environmental ConditionsEin
    your product Resource Guide. Contact Toshiba Technical Service and
    Support for more information.

    Wow, you mean, my new laptop will not perform as advertised, and might actually just TURN OFF while I am NORMALLY using it? Why the heck would I want to spend $2.5k for a Satellite 5205 to find out it will clock down to half speed while "being used" and then if I "use it too much" will just simply shutdown?

    To the story author, be happy you didn't buy from toshiba or else you'll be retyping your report each time Toshiba engineers decide its time for your new laptop to turn off to protect itself from overheating.

  • Turn it off! (Score:2, Informative)

    by Lissst ( 451356 )
    When I purchased my HP laptop around 2 years ago, all I had to do was click on the little "SpeedStep" icon in the system tray, and then select the option to NOT cut the CPU time in half when running on battery power. I remember this utility being an Intel program so if you don't have it on your computer, I would contact the manufacturer and tell them to send you a copy of the utility.

  • This laptop doesn't have SpeedStep (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Intel charges more for P4-Ms than P4-desktops for a reason. The P4-M has a whole slew of features to save power, not the least of which is SpeedStep.

    SpeedStep drops the CPU's voltage as well as the frequency when it goes into battery-optimized mode. The laptop in question just throttles the CPU. That's bad.

    You get what you pay for. Look for laptops with a "P4-M" chip. Do some homework, and you can get a reasonably power-efficient laptop.

  • So am I the only one that laments my home desktop PC being this large noisy machine that consumes a lot of electric power?

    I'd like a desktop machine with a real keyboard, mouse and monitor, but

    1. micro form factor box, like a book
    2. quiet, no-fan
    3. low power consumption, so I can leave it up 24/7, have a UPS keep it up for hours, etc.

    The best way I see for this to happen is for a chip designed for laptops to be incorporated into the next generation desktops.

    Why not?

  • Back in my day, they really DID put vanilla desktop chips into laptops! A friend of mine had a 200mhz laptop that heated up so much that it melted the keys on the keyboard above the heat exhaust (which went right out of the PCMCIA slots, good thing he wasn't a serious card user...)

  • AMD desktop in a laptop. $599 (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hedley ( 8715 ) <hedley@pacbell.net> on Monday November 04, 2002 @05:39PM (#4595774) Homepage Journal
    Our local Fry's is selling these things under the brand QuickNote. We bought two of them for customer visits to our co. and we may get a few more. It has an AMD desktop 1Ghz cpu in it with a massive heatpipe -> a copper radiator like structure. Amazing looking. It has NO battery. Don't let the A/C cord fall out! It has WindowsXP home prebundled. Uses DDR PC2100 memory (128Meg of which windows only see's 96, must be the AGP screen buffer eats the other 32Mb). Think about that price for a moment... XP alone is like $100 to an OEM (or is it?...)

    Also the unit has a warning on it that the feet must be in the down position, tilting the case off the flat so that airflow can move to the radiator.

    I had heard when the P4 came out, Taiwan Inc figured out how to duct the heat out of a desktop cpu based notebook so they could be the first to offer a P4 notebook.

    Hedley

  • Power (Score:5, Informative)

    by Dolohov ( 114209 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @05:50PM (#4595854)
    Look at it this way: modern processors running at full speed can draw around 100 Watts of power. There's no way your battery is going to be able to hold out for long with that kind of drain from just the processor. Furthermore, for most applications, you're just not going to need something that fast when you're in a position where you can't get to an outlet.

    So, instead of "feeling dirty" because the people who designed your laptop were intelligent about it, why not "feel dirty" because you don't know enough about computers to understand why this is an issue, or maybe "feel dirty" because you've been sucked into the trap of thinking that clock speed is the be-all and end-all of computer performance.

  • It's always been this way... (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Spoing ( 152917 ) on Monday November 04, 2002 @05:53PM (#4595868) Homepage
    The devil is always in the details. There's not much you can do about it...since there's always one extra detail you'll miss.

    Case in point; Back when MFM hard drives were the only show in town, I built my first computer from parts. After a few weeks researching each part, I boldly went in and asked for a 1:1 hard drive controller -- paying extra for it -- along with the other premium pieces needed to build the beast.

    1. Meaningless fact: The old MFM drives would not necessarily be fast enough to continuously read data. Instead, they would read a track, fill up, and then skip a track or more; the disk would have a 1:2, 1:3, ... interleaving of tracks. If the drive and controller were in tune, the data could be read one track after another with no gaps; 1:1 interleave.

    After putting it all together, I ran some tests and found that data was being read from the drive with a 1:2 interleave. When I accused the uber geek salesman back at the store of giving me the wrong parts, his only comment -- sealed with a grin -- was;

    1. "That is a 1:1 controller -- just as you asked for. You didn't, though, ask for a 1:1 hard drive."

    Since then, I've assumed that no matter how I plan something isn't going to be right.

  • It is even worse! (Score:3, Interesting)

    by pvera ( 250260 ) <pedro.vera@gmail.com> on Monday November 04, 2002 @06:31PM (#4596184) Homepage Journal
    75% of the Windows laptops I have been assigned over the last 5 years have had that "feature."

    Yes, feature. In each case the builder added little stickers and tray icons saying how it had a "power saving feature" that slows down the CPU to save battery power. The tray icon points to an applet that controls what triggers the speed drop.

    The biggest offenders in my case where IBM and Toshiba. Neither could play a full DVD. I remember one specific instance that the battery died right at the intermission for 2001: A Space Odyssey!

    My 600 MHz iBook on OS X 10.2 has this kind of feature in the system preferences, but as far as I can tell it defaults to full power. You would have to specifically set it to cut performance to save power. And I can watch a whole DVD without sweating it out.

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