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Handhelds Hardware

Pogo No Longer Vaporware 64

Posted by timothy from the eentsy-weentsy dept.
nicu writes "Back in April the Pogo device has been regarded with scepticism by many of the slashdot users. People should have a look to see where are they now, as it is the fastest wireless web browser around. The claim for 56k was made for ordinary CSD at 9.6k baud. For GPRS it claims more than 120k and it really feels that way. Customer reviews are available at the Pogo Portal."
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Pogo No Longer Vaporware More

Pogo No Longer Vaporware

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  • How does it deal with java?

  • And? (Score:4, Insightful)

    by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Thursday October 31, 2002 @02:58AM (#4571047) Journal
    The question is, how much are ISPs charging for the service? That's what really decides if a device is going to live or die.

    • Re:And? (Score:4, Informative)

      by frp001 ( 227227 ) on Thursday October 31, 2002 @04:23AM (#4571094)
      It's Pogo only ISP... And they charge £7.99/month for access.
      Besides this extract from the FAQ does not make it look that good.
      Pogo works well with millions of web pages, but pages that use the following may not work as intended by the designers: audio and video streaming (Real, Quicktime, MPEG), animated GIFs, DHTML, CSS, plug-ins, ActiveX and Java applets (except Flash 4). JavaScript requiring anything more than the level 0 DOM or a mouse action (e.g. mouseover) may also experience some confusion.
      Doesn't work as expected with GIFS, DHTML, CSS, plug-ins, java, javascript... So, just plain hypertext hey?
      • *Animated* Gifs.. that means (presumably) Gifs and jpegs will work just fine. Still a lot of stuff to rule out support for, but it's not as bad as plain hypertext.
    • They are selling them for £50 ($70) - I traded in an old phone and walked out with one for £10!!!!!!!

      (Of course I am tied to the provider for 12 months, buy hey)
  • GPRS capable but this is not enabled yet...

    Well, humm, then what good is it?
    • Should of said in the USA no GPRS, no use for it. No GSM.
      • Huh? GSM service is widely available in the US. When I first got it, it was through Voicestream, but I believe they're doing business as T-Mobile now. It's priced pretty reasonably, too. Tri-band phones have come way down in price, from over $1000 a year ago to a couple hundred bucks now.
  • Practical because they do so by using content, services and applications that already exist...
    So what was stopping us from doing this POGO stuff before?
  • According to the Pogo site, they cost as little as 44.99 GBP which is $77 USD! Cheaper than a palm, and it appears the network only has to support data calls so all the biggies networks in the US (Verizon at least has GPRS right?) are compatable.

  • and? (Score:3, Informative)

    by lingqi ( 577227 ) on Thursday October 31, 2002 @04:59AM (#4571118) Journal
    check this [nttdocomo.co.jp] out. notice the 384k download speed in the spec [nttdocomo.co.jp] page.

    quick rundown: video-enabled cellphone / dictionary / evenything including the kitchen sink / etc, etc, etc...

    too bad only in japan.

  • Pogo Vapourware? What? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Mr_Silver ( 213637 ) on Thursday October 31, 2002 @05:01AM (#4571119)
    (disclaimer: I live in the UK)

    On the 26th September I was at the Mobile Choice Awards (big telecoms do where they eat and drink a lot and pat each other on the back for winning such awards as "best UK NOP", "best customer service" etc) and I met several people from Pogo (have their business cards to prove it).

    Naturally being from a NOP myself, they were eager to show their product. I can assure you that the Pogo hasn't been vapourware for at least 6 months (they've been selling in Carphone Warehouse for ages).

    In fact, they're already released an updated version of the software.

    I'm not going into the specifications because someone else can probably do it better than me, but in short it's flash based running on a custom OS with a very pretty interface. It's main problem (for me) is that it's too big and bulky.

    However, I can't see my company selling their products through the distribution channels since the US arm sells something made by their closest rivals.

    But, Pogo hasn't been vapourware for 6 months.

    • I tried to get a demo of one of these at a Carphone Warehouse in Reading (UK) a few weeks ago.

      There are 3 CPWs in Reading - one had never stocked the device, the second had had one which they claimed had been stolen, and the third had a teenage salesman who basically refused to demo the Pogo. He failed to get the demo unit working (charging the battery would have helped) and instead insisted that I look at the XDA "because it runs Windows" ....

    • On the 26th September ... ... they were eager to show their product. I can assure you that the Pogo hasn't been vapourware for at least 6 months

      No offense, but I fail to see how the 26th of September was 6 months ago.
      • He never said that the 26th of September was 6 months ago.

        He could have asked them about the product, and the might have said something to the effect of.. oh, we started selling it to distributor XYZ five months ago.

  • Yeah cool, but .... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by lushman ( 251748 ) on Thursday October 31, 2002 @06:31AM (#4571175)
    I don't know about the UK, but in Australia phone companies charge around 3c/KB or even 16.5c/30sec + 16.5 sec flagfall for WAP or GPRS services. Just perousing the trolls on /. is going to cost you are large sum of money.

    I don't understand cellular network providers ... they upgrade their network so people can take advantage of new services, but charge so much for them that end users ignore the new facility. Now that's what I call progress.
    • I've got a GPRS compatible phone (Ericcson T68i), and want to use it with my Zaurus but trying to get GPRS is proving impossible. Ok, I can do dial-up to my ISP, but I want the extra speed. Go to the people I bought the phone from (who also resell the air time) and no joy.

      GRPS may be a lot faster, etc., etc. but the marketing of it seems to be non-existent in the UK.
  • I'm based outside the UK, and it was never clear to me how the Pogo works if you put in the SIM card of another provider, especially if it was outside the UK.

    Is it that you use Pogo's own site as a sort of proxy server, accessing through your service provider's GPRS connection? Or would you have to access an ISP back in the UK? If the latter, it's only practical inside the UK.

    Still, it is a nice piece of kit, and the form factor looked quite good, if a little on the fat side. Glad to hear that they are doing well, because it should set an important precedent for the mobile data market in general, and it's nice to see a small company actually delivering and carving out a market share.
    • If you put in another SIM the Pogo works fine as a phone, but any attempt to view web pages takes you to Pogo's Registration page where you have to sign up for 7.99 UKP a month using your credit card. Then everything works.
      Roaming via GSM works by calling Pogo's proxy server in the UK, so it's expensive. But roaming via GPRS is really cheap, because you're connecting to the local network's GPRS gateway, which forwards your packets to the Pogo server for free over the web. The problem is getting GPRS roaming to work at all! But that's the networks' fault. Things are improving now that there's a lot more GPRS phones out there.

      >CrapShark (this message written in the UK on a Pogo!)
  • From the specs: Modem: Dual band GSM/GPRS module (900/1800MHz)

    Oh, well. GSM networks in North America run on 1900 Mhz (except, apparently, for some segments of AT&T's new GSM network that use 850 Mhz. Idiots.). That rules out Pogo-ing over here.

    Pity. I was looking forward to using this toy as a cheap alternative to the Sidekick [hiptop.com], which T-Mobile has managed to cripple (they've arranged matters so that you can't use the same SIM in a Sidekick and another GPRS device).

    • Perhaps AT&T are not idiots, instead, they happen to own a lot of 800mhz spectrum, and aren't going to switch to 1900 (with all its disadvantages) just because you think they are idiots.
      • They're idiots, from the consumer's point of view, because they're further complicating an already complex problem. It looks like they'll be the only people using the 850 Mhz band; that means that you're going to have to buy a handset made for them and them alone, which may or may not work outside North America (depending on how many other bands it supports). This negates one of the best features of GSM phones... the ability to buy a phone from almost any vendor and use any network's SIM card. Any move that reduces choice while potentially keeping prices high is a bad one, in my opinion.

        I'm sure that from AT&T's point of view it's a stroke of genius... it allows them to retain iron-clad control over the type and brand of handsets used on their network.

        • You really don't understand the economics of this situation. AT&T owns the licenses to a bunch of 800Mhz spectrum, as well as all the infrastructure to go along with it. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't just switch to 1900 because all of the licenses are owned by other companies. Their decision to use GSM is predicated on using their existing spectrum. AT&T is a big enough customer to warrant making new phones. Furthermore, if you care about roaming, you aren't going to get a GSM phone anyhow from any of the existing providers, because AFAIK, they don't support analog, which is the only service which is fairly universally available in the U.S. There aren't that many people who care about roaming in Europe but not in smaller towns in the U.S.

          Europe has the same situation, albeit in different bands. The original GSM system operated at 900Mhz, and the new band is 1800Mhz. It's too bad that there wasn't cooperation between Europe and North America when this was decided, but it's water under the bridge, and people just have to deal with it.
          • I understand the situation quite well; I simply don't like it. AT&T's decision makes sense from a business standpoint, but it's anti-consumer.

            Furthermore, if you care about roaming, you aren't going to get a GSM phone anyhow from any of the existing providers, because AFAIK, they don't support analog, which is the only service which is fairly universally available in the U.S.

            I've had cellphones of one kind or another since 1985., and changed products many times. I've used every technology available in North America; I've had service from AT&T, Verizon, Sprint, Cellular One, Sprint, T-Mobile, Bell Mobility, Cantel and a couple that are more obscure. I'm quite aware of what works and what doesn't. Until a couple of years ago you would have been right... analog service was about all you could count on. However, that's improved a great deal recently... I travel for business weekly, use a T-Mobile GSM digital-only phone, and I've been satisfied with the coverage. About the only large region where I have coverage trouble is Vermont, which is very poorly served in general.

            As I understand it, the US Federal Communications Commission now has a much more relaxed attitude towards legacy analog service, and may approve its discontinuation in some areas in the near future. AT&T and Cingular are the leaders in analog networks, and they're abandoning their combo analog/TDMA product line in favor of GSM-only handsets. Sprint and Verizon still offer analog/CDMA combos, but their newest and fanciest products are CDMA-only (and Sprint charges a stiff roaming fee for analog use). It appears that analog coverage is not that much of an issue anymore... if you're going to go without analog service anyhow, why not use a technology that works outside the US, and that allows you to own several handsets and switch among them at your convenience?

            • In my market, 18/21 phones from Sprint, and 12/13 phones offered from Verizon support Analog. Clearly manufacturers believe that analog is an important feature.

              Looking at T-mobile's coverage map: http://www.t-mobile.com/coverage/national_popup.as p, one can see that less than 20% of the landmass of the U.S. is covered. You can't even drive coast to coast on any highway and maintain coverage the whole time.

              Compare to this:
              http://www.mobile911alarms.com/911map.htm, listing total AMPS coverage in North America. Over 90% of the landmass is covered, including almost every mile of Interstate highway.

              Sprint may charge 30 cents a minute or so extra for a roaming call, but if I'm broken down on the highway, I'll gladly pay it. You can be in lots of places in the U.S. with a GSM phone, and simply not be able to make a call for any ammount of money in an emergency.

              T-Mobile has NO coverage in Vermont. On the other hand, Vermont is fully covered by AMPS. Even if you are in the Northeast, there are major holes in GSM coverage.

              It is true that AMPS service will be optional in 2007, but that is quite a while off, and when it happens, you will see analog coverage removed from big cities first where the spectrum is tight. In those areas, if you have a CDMA/AMPS phone, you will have no trouble getting coverage.

              Re: AT&T making a business decision that is "anti-consumer", AT&T did not have the option to switch to 1900. The licenses are owned by other operational carriers. What would you have carriers do with their existing 800Mhz licenses? In this age of multi-band phones, why should anyone stop using 50Mhz of prime spectrum just because it's not in the GSM standard?

              The vast majority of people do not travel outside the U.S. with any regularity. AMPS works in Canada and Mexico. Having a phone which works in Europe and Asia is simply not an issue for most people. On the other hand, most people do travel with some regularity around the U.S., where GSM coverage is very poor.
    • After you find out how much they charge for a megabyte of GPRS bits, it doesn't matter anyway.

      • After you find out how much they charge for a megabyte of GPRS bits, it doesn't matter anyway.

        That's changing very rapidly... Sprint recently announced very attractive pricing for data over their 1XRTT CDMA network, and T-Mobile has responded with a price slash on GPRS service. It's still too expensive, but it's a big improvement on their earlier price structure.

        Besides, isn't the Pogo still a circuit-switched data device? The web site said that GPRS will be "coming soon".

        • They did? It seems you're right [t-mobile.com], but even when they get only 56kbit, and if you'r actually using that, then that $39.99 is blown away in 49 minutes of heavy surfing (or a 49 minutes tiny 56kbit realvideo stream for that matter).

          fourty bucks for fifty minutes just doesn't sound even close to right yet, neither does eight and a half hours for a hundred bucks.

          I'll stick with CSD for now.
  • Or what phone companies want? Because this particular user would much rather have a Pogo with 802.11 connectivity that can roam around the house and backyard. The form factor is perfect, the functionality is perfect, the connectivity is useless. Of course, I do realize that they're doing the old razor-and-blades thing here, expecting to not make much money on the device and instead tying it to a lucrative perpetual service. But that's their problem, not mine, and I certainly won't be buying this one. As soon as it has WiFi, I will.
    • 802.11 (for now) is not what users want -- they don't want to be teathered to specific (and narrow) geographic locations to browse, email, etc.!

      Initially, you and others might want only use a Pogo-like device around the home -- but pretty quickly you will want to drag it along to the mall and the movie theater and to supper at a McDonalds.

      Sure, if you shop, watch movies and eat at Starbucks or an Airport [Airport lounges, unplugged [msnbc.com]] you will be fine with 802.11 connectivity (but you will still pay a connection fee to every different vendor). So why not make it GSM based, use anywhere and pay a single fee to one vendor?

      It's just like cordless phones -- around the home they are great -- but many people have cell phones for the road, too -- and most people don't complain about having two phone numbers and two phone bills...

      Grip
      • > So why not make it GSM based, use anywhere and pay a single fee to one vendor?

        Because I would be using this device 90% of the time at home, and why should I pay (VERY HEFTY) usage fees for SLOW GPRS when I have an idle broadband access point sitting there that wouldn't cost me any extra? The answer is because me using my broadband with the Pogo device doesn't generate any revenue for either Pogo or their wireless service partners. It's just like TiVo--we have the technology and infrastructure to not charge you monthly fees for the guide service, but we won't do that because it would earn us no money.
  • The compression technology that allows full web browsing over a gsm network is contained on pogo's proxy servers and not the device itself. Therefore to access the internet you need to pay the £7.99 monthly charge. Have a look at the pay thread for more details of what this covers
    From the pogo board [carimporting.co.uk]
  • From the pogo faqs http://www.pogo.co.uk/faqs/browsing.htm

    Pogo works well with millions of web pages, but pages that use the following may not work as intended by the designers: audio and video streaming (Real, Quicktime, MPEG), animated GIFs, DHTML, CSS, plug-ins, ActiveX and Java applets (except Flash 4). JavaScript requiring anything more than the level 0 DOM or a mouse action (e.g. mouseover) may also experience some confusion.

    A style guide will be made available to webmasters who wish to optimise their sites for Pogo for maximum ease of use and aesthetic principles. Many websites have "lite" versions for PDAs or interactive TV that work really well with your Pogo

    No streaming video/audio -- whatever, that is fine, but NO CSS? No Animated GIFS? The thing has a native Macromedia Flash interface, but can't do an animated GIF?

    As a platform, Pogo should die. The whole point of web browsing standards like HTML, XHTML, CSS, etc is to allow all kinds of devices access to web-based information WITHOUT having to have seperate versions for every device. You can't call it a web-browser, if it can't browse the web

    Standards are good. We need devices that are standards compliant (or conformant), not more proprietary garbage, like Pogo.

    Grip

    • Well this comment really deserves to be answered using a Pogo to prove that YOU DO NOT need special pages written for it. I can view just as many pages as my Netscape 6 browser can.

      To say that a browser is not a browser if it can't display CSS & XHTML, borders on being ludicrous.
      • Ummmm...NetScape 6 actually CAN support CSS!

        http://developer.apple.com/internet/javascript/n n6 dhtml.html

        That being said I agree with your main point. Pogo may not support DHTML but it clearly supports HTML. Besides most "wireless devices" out there don't support all of the bells and whistles that desktop browsers are expected to handle. Savy web-developers have taken this into account already. And "animated GIFs" are pretty useless. Most animated GIFs I've seen have been banner adds. Disabling them can only be a good thing.
  • T-Mobile Sidekick [t-mobile.com]

    GSM Phone + GPRS data access. Custom hardware and OS by Danger, Inc. [danger.com]. Web Browser, AIM, Email, SMS, PIM, Camera attachment, and games. Built-in thumbboard behind a very cool flip-up screen. Hi-res grayscale screen. Polyphonic ringtones provided by the Beatnik Audio Engine.

    Unlimited GRPS Data browsing, unlimited email, 1000 SMS messages, 200 anytime minutes and 1000 weekend minutes per month, for $39.99. The device costs $99 after rebates from CompUSA ($249 - $50 T-Mobile rebate - $100 CompUSA rebate).

    I have had one of these since they launched about a month ago, and I absolutely love it. The web brower can render just about any site (obvious exceptions being Flash, audio, and javascript. All browsing happens through compression proxies, which re-arrange the pages (and do a great job of it), and compress and decolorize images, to speed up browsing. No horizontal scrolling. All emails and PIM data (contacts, calendar, to-dos, etc.), and photos are constantly synched with the Danger/T-Mobile backend servers, so all of your data is accessible via a custom website at T-Mobile. You can even use this page as a webmail account, if you want. This way, if you run over the Sidekick with the car, you get a replacement, sign in with your username and password, and within minutes, all of your emails, contacts, and photos are synchronized back to the new device, and you're in business.

    The geek coolness factor of this little gadget is off the charts - I have single-handledly disrupted staff meetings, classes, and and other events but just having it visible, nevermind using it. Once I flip open the screen (kind of like the flip phones in The Matrix), it's all over. :-) It's got a tiny camera attachment that can hang on your keychain, and when plugged into the accesory port, takes 120x90 pixel color pictures that you can email on the spot. Plus, it's got a cool scroll wheel that can supposedly) display 65,536 different colors. I don't know if it's that many, but it's definitely cool.

    The best feature, though, has to be the unlimited GPRS data. Granted, web access is through compression proxies, and so far, no one has found a way to use it as a GPRS modem for a laptop or PDA, but the fact that I can pay $10 more per month than I was paying before, for the same number of voice minutes (200 anytime, 1000 weekend), and get unlimited GPRS data, well, that just sealed the deal.

    I love my Sidekick! Email me on it at jabancroft@SPAMBLOCK.tmail.com (remove the SPAMBLOCK)!

    Jenova_Six
    • Sidekick issues:

      • Monochrome 240x160 screen

      • Screen is not touch-sensitive; dialing phone is very difficult without opening the screen and using the keyboard

      • Organizer integration with PC is poor... can't synchronize

      • Rated at only 60 hours of standby time

      • T-Mobile has only one plan that supports the Sidekick, with too few minutes and unlimited data as a temporary promotion

      • Can't move SIM to a different GPRS phone if the mood strikes you... if the SIM is provisioned for the Sidekick, T-Mobile won't allow any GPRS traffic if the phone is in a different device

      I don't know if the Pogo is the answer to any of these issues, but the Sidekick is too limiting for me.

  • ...goes out with a gorgeous vision of loveliness, so they must be doing something right!
  • "Yes, let's consider," said Bruno, putting his thumb into his
    mouth again, and sitting down upon a dead mouse.
    "What do you keep that mouse for?" I said. "You should either
    bury it or else throw it into the brook."
    "Why, it's to measure with!" cried Bruno. "How ever would you
    do a garden without one? We make each bed three mouses and a half
    long, and two mouses wide."
    I stopped him as he was dragging it off by the tail to show me
    how it was used...
    -- Lewis Carroll, "Sylvie and Bruno"

    - this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...

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