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Hardware

Moxi Functions In Charter Set-top Box Next Year 108

Posted by timothy from the it's-spreading-my-precious dept.
An anonymous reader writes: "Charter Communications will offer a Moxi-like cable tv set top box with DVR / MP3 capabilities next year. Here it is. I like the idea of merging the set-top box with a DVR using normal cable tv or satellite. A good combination."
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Moxi Functions In Charter Set-top Box Next Year More

Moxi Functions In Charter Set-top Box Next Year

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  • Whats funny (Score:4, Interesting)

    by papasui ( 567265 ) on Tuesday July 16, 2002 @08:32PM (#3898788) Homepage
    is that all these companies are owned by Paul Allen and the article states that the main competitor will be Microsoft (which was co-founded by Allen).
    • its all just to make it appear like there won't be a microsoft monopoly

    • Re:Whats funny (Score:3, Interesting)

      by frameshift ( 535829 )
      paul allen also owns tech tv which promotes linux and one of the popular shows on tech tv is "the screen savers" with leo laport who does linux support on air. they also did a show on installing linux. i thought this would be kinda weird for a station that is owned by someone that holds a lot of stock in microsoft.
    • He also is the president of ZDtv/TechTV. I really don't think he cares much about MS (well, not reglioulsy). Look at TechTV and how they _ACKNOLOGE_ linux. If he was a MS drone, that linux section would be canned.
    • I noticed and was about to post this same thing. Charter is owned by Allen. However I wouldn't have received 5 points like you.
    • Even more ironic, under the "General Subscriber Responsibilities" of Charter Pipeline's Customer Agreement [charter.com], they require you to adhere to MSN email's TOS [msn.com]. That's being quite selective considering there's so many free e-mail sites out there. One has to wonder what (if any) TOS/Privacy agreements that will accompany this set-top box.

      • Re:Whats funny (Score:2, Informative)

        by Mashby ( 11155 )
        This is, of course, only applicable if you use MSN email or Hotmail. I'm a Charter Pipeline subscriber, and I noticed that they recently changed their default startpage to a cobranded MSN/Charter Pipeline portal, which I'm sure is why they mention it in the TOS.
        • I'm a subscriber as well and never used the startpage once. So, I guess i'm still bound by the TOS ;) Thanks for clarifying that, though.
          • Well, the impression I get from it is that you are only bound to the MSN email TOS if you use MSN email. From the Customer Agreement:

            Charter customers using MSN e-mail must also comply with MSN's Terms of Use. A copy of the MSN Terms of Use is found at http://privacy.msn.com/tou and is incorporated into this Agreement by reference.

            So, as long as you don't use MSN e-mail, I don't see how you could be bound to the MSN terms of use, although, IANAL. You're right, though, it is funny that they even mentioned it, it's a little redundant, since you're obviously bound to the MSN email TOU if you use that service.

  • Combinations. (Score:2, Insightful)

    by saintlupus ( 227599 )
    I like the idea of merging the set-top box with a DVR using normal cable tv or satellite. A good combination.

    The trade-off, of course, is that they _both_ have to be upgraded if you want something better. The whole unit would have to be replaced, in this case.

    See how much people on here bitch about the iMac if you don't think this would be a problem.

    --saint
    • and you know what... this is a good thing! you pay $5.00 a month for yout set top box, so you get a new PVR every time you break yours now. Granted there will be a larger number of whiners because they will now actually get arrested and fined for hacking the cable companies equipment.

      Secondly... this has been around for over a year now. the MAIN use for these boxes is to do targetted advertising... you see an ad that your neighbor doesn't see as it was targetted to you based on your profile, demographics, and all the data the boxes collect on you (*and already do! the DCT3000 on up log and report everything you do... weither or not the cable company collects and uses that data is another story...)

      So having the whole unit replaced for free at my cable office because it broke is awesome to me... as is them asking that I bring it in for a newer one as it doesn't have the features they need me to have...

      Dont think for one minute that they are giving you anything... it's for streaming targetted ad's... you get the side benifit of having a PVR.

  • Yea, great combo.... (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Stiletto ( 12066 )
    I like the idea of merging the set-top box with a DVR using normal cable tv or satellite. A good combination.

    Yea that's a great combination. While you're at it, let's combine my microwave oven with my freezer. Oh and don't forget that useful tiolet-sink combo.

    Bleh.. Just give me a cheap black box that does one thing WELL, rather than fifty things half-assed.
    • Uh huh. Personally I don't think this is a great combination. It is in the interest of cable companies to allow for things like DRM and the like. Don't give them more control. Please.
    • I like the idea of merging the set-top box with a DVR using normal cable tv or satellite. A good combination.

      Perhaps to thwart TV "thieves" like myself. I'd say the odds against this device having a commercial skip button or even a fast-forward are pretty high.
      • I'd say the odds against this device having a commercial skip button or even a fast-forward are pretty high.

        What use would a PVR be without a fast-forward button? It will have one. And if you've seen any of the Moxi demonstrations, you would know that it also has a commercial-skip button. I highly doubt that this will be removed.
    • The benefit is that as the signal comes off the satellite it can be written directly to disk. The encoder/decoder is not required, and hence you get better video quality.

      The reason I've not purchased a Tivo (other than the need for the stupid on-going service) is that I don't want to do MPEG->Analog->MPEG->Disk->Analog to watch my satelite feed. MPEG->Disk->Analog is a much shorter path with only a single decode involved.

      This is the reason I'll be getting the DVR from DishTv. The new dual tuner model is pretty sweet.

      • Re:Yea, great combo.... (Score:4, Informative)

        by malice95 ( 40013 ) <Michael.Cunningham.USA @ g m ail.com> on Tuesday July 16, 2002 @09:23PM (#3898949)
        The reason I've not purchased a Tivo (other than the need for the stupid on-going service) is that I don't want to do MPEG->Analog->MPEG->Disk->Analog to watch my satelite feed. MPEG->Disk->Analog is a much shorter path with only a single decode involved.

        Um.. the direct tivo unit records directly from the stream. There is no analog conversion involved until you watch it. Its mpeg stream to disk direct. Its also dual tuner and avaliable now.
        • I don't have Direct TV, so that doesn't help me.
        • Um.. the direct tivo unit records directly from the stream. There is no analog conversion involved until you watch it. Its mpeg stream to disk direct. Its also dual tuner and avaliable now
          The Tivo input is not MPEG, so that means that the Satellite decoder must decode the MPEG and produce an analog signal for the TV (since it doesn't know the Tivo is there), which the Tivo must convert to MPEG.

          MPEG at Dish, Analog into Tivo, MPEG to disk. The MPEG compression is better at the satellite, so I'd rather have an integrated unit.

    • Bleh.. Just give me a cheap black box that does one thing WELL, rather than fifty things half-assed.

      Unlike your PC, your refrigerator/freezer, Lounge/Dining room, CD/DVD player, VHS Recorder and Player, Your Combined Stereo System or any other of the many appliances and things that do more then one functionality.

      There have been many bad examples of combining functionality, but in the end, convergence is generally a good thing. But, as always, avoid the early attempts, they suck. Wait for attempt 2-5 when things are much better.

  • What if these break? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by taloobie ( 537189 )
    Maybe someone has come up with this thought before...

    With all these convergence boxes/devices has anyone put in any thought about what happens when one breaks? I mean, if I invest in one device for everything and it breaks/hangs/crashes I'm SOL for everything I use the box for. I'd hate to lose TV, music, DVDs, gaming and web all at once...

    I tend to like many devices with specific purposes. That also seems to keep the stability up reasonably well.

    Does anyone else agree?
    • Definatly agree on multiple systems/redundancy...the advantave of the Cable company providing this box is it's rented...10 bucks a month (arbitrary number) it breaks...they bring a new one in a couple of days. Of course, I'll still have my tuner card/mp3player/dvd etc ad nauseum (sp?) to rely on...
    • The bad thing about multiple devices is the cost and efficiency factor. You need basically the same electronic parts in your cable box as your MP3 player and Tivo anyway, why not build the functionality in at a tiny incremental cost rather than building a whole separate redundant device?

      Redundancy makes sense if you really need high availability, but entertainment isn't that important. On the other hand, I have three cable boxes, a cable modem, and a half-dozen computers around the house, so what do I know? ;)
  • This is a computer that you keep by your TV. Hm... can't those exist now?
  • Why, the Moxi Pad of course!
  • cost about 250... its called a used PC
  • Is that the cable company would controll it. Take the ReplayTV fiasco for instance. They fought back because they don't get any perks from the industry, however cable companies, that is their bread and butter. And being a cable company, God only knows what features they can/will/could put in it, or disable (like 30 second skip to bypass commercials). I don't trust the same people who provide my content to be the ones who allow me to manipulate it at whim. Then again todays climate could just have me uoverly paranoid :)
    • 30 second skip is never going to be in there... so you cant lose something that was never there...

      "Hey, this doesn't make toast! you bastards! I want my money back!"

      If you want to complain, great... complain about something real.. DON'T complain about something you never had.

  • What are the odds of us ever seeing one of these here in Australia? All the cool MP3 related devices (eg Voyetra's AudioTron, the SliMP3, etc) are unavailable here for various reasons...

    I hate living in the technological third world :(
    • All the cool MP3 related devices (eg Voyetra's AudioTron, the SliMP3, etc) are unavailable here for various reasons...

      The SliMP3 is available in Australia, you just have to order it from us directly [slimdevices.com]. Why? Because network MP3 players are not a mainstream product (in Australia or the USA for that matter) so it's hard to get them onto the shelves in retail outlets. Also we're a small company with "slim" margins, so we need to sell direct.

      We have found [k55.ch] some reatilers [ihavetohave.it] in Europe [slimp3.dk] who now carry our product, but as yet we do not have an Australian reseller yet.

      Just get together with a few of your friends to save on the shipping costs. We've sold a lot of players in Australia, you just have to import it yourself. It's actually cheaper than it would be to pick it up from a local store (by the time the reseller pays import tax and adds their markup).

      Feel free to contact me if you have any questions about bringing the product in to Australia. Also, if you know anyone who might be interested in promoting the SliMP3 in Australia, please let me know!
      • That's a fair point indeed - you are the only company producing such a product that will actually work here (power supply differences being the major show-stopper).

        I'm one of those guys who prefers to actually touch something before buying it, but the time is getting closer when I give up waiting. Also, I'm one of those annoying bastards who _really_ wants digital outputs from such a toy.

        As an aside, I've thoroughly investigated the shelf-unit MP3 products available on the first world markets... Only two seemed even remotely worth purchasing: SliMP3 and Audiotron. Audiotron is prettier (fits in nicely with the rest of my components, digital outputs), but doesn't support Aussie power supplies. SliMP3 seems to have better software, is quieter, cheaper (!), supports Aussie power supplies (!!), but has no digital outputs.

        Oh well, you can't win everything I guess.

  • All-in-one systems (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Andy Smith ( 55346 ) on Tuesday July 16, 2002 @08:59PM (#3898882)
    I like the idea of merging the set-top box with a DVR using normal cable tv or satellite. A good combination.
    Here in the UK the main satellite provider, Sky, has a normal digibox but also an enhanced system called Sky Plus that is a combo digibox and PVR. There's no MP3 or DVD support but it does allow you to record one satellite channel while watching another. It's been around since last September. I've had one for most of this year and it's an awesome piece of kit, despite a few technical problems along the way. The box itself costs £300 and there's a £10 monthly subscription.

  • There will probably be a catch (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Influxx ( 591650 ) on Tuesday July 16, 2002 @09:31PM (#3898970)
    This sounds like a great idea but i'm sure there will be some type of encoding that won't allow you to record premium channels or skip commercials. This is just some kind of ploy to trick the consumer into self-limiting what they can record and view.

  • No mention of auxilliary receivers (Score:3, Interesting)

    by uradu ( 10768 ) on Tuesday July 16, 2002 @09:34PM (#3898980)
    If I remember correctly, the original Moxi system had optional set-top boxes that you could string via Ethernet throughout the house to watch content off the main box on other TVs. That's what I found the most appealing about the Moxi. The rest is hardly an improvement over the current TiVo devices.
    • If you check out the Moxi [digeo.com] product page you'll that feature is still listed. I'm sure the journalist/press release writer just didn't feel that was one of the "cooler" features.
    • Not correct. Actually, the Moxi includes a built in 802.11a access point and allows you to have up to 3 remote set top boxes that receive digital video and audio wirelessly. Talk about a cool concept. Not only that, it also accepts an ethernet feed from your broadband provider and acts as a cable/dsl router, provides NAT, and rebroadcasts your internet signal in glorious 54 megabits throughout your humble abode...

      Check the Moxi website at http://www.moxi.com [moxi.com]
  • I have a question. I use Charter Cable TV and Pipeline (their cable internet service.) If I buy the set top box, I assume I would need to get Digital Cable from them. BUT say that I do do that.

    Will I have to pay ANOTHER montly fee to view e-mail and surf from my TV if I have their computer cable internet subscription? I hope not, but you never know...
    • With Charter, and digital cable, it costs around $10 a month for the box. When this comes out, they will probably offer choices for the same dulld rab box for $10/mo or the Tivo one for $15/mo .. Charter doesn't seem to do huge leaps in prices unless it's from Basic -> Extended. Extended -> Digital is rather cheap, and the boxes etc along with it .. More than likely most average people would be paying an extra $15/mo for the Tivo like box WITH the added digital channels that come with it. We will so. If it is too much for my dad (Who is really stingy.), then it probably wont be worthwhile for them to invest in this technology. One thing that I bet they are banking on is VIEWING HABITS. With Tivo, you can be ANONYMOUS, or OPT OUT ENTIRELY. I am guessing with Charter, you will NOT have either of those options, so that might even make the service cheaper in the long run. We shall see, but for now, I am glad they're at least TRYING. PVRs are the way of the future for the generation of people who have NO TIME. When you have that extra hour to do nothing, you can sit down and watch your favorite show and be happy and relax.
      • This is more a slam on Charter than anything else. I'm amazed they managed to figure out the whole PVR thing, considering that you either need two remotes to record something, or a cable mouse on your VCR. On the plus side, it is kinda an improvement, since their current "digital cable" box has numerous bugs and I can make it crash once a day, doing nothing too involved. Laaaaaaaaaaaaa......
    • This is slightly off-topic, but I thought I would tell about the problems I've had with Charter. I signed up for the mid-grade (is it bronze?) "pipeline" cable modem service about a year ago, and really liked it. It went down a few times for extended periods, but every time I called they were very good about crediting my account for all the downtime.

      Then about sometime in April I got a call from a telemarketer. I really hate telemarketers, so I was pretty pissed, but just as I was about to rage on the guy, I heard the phrase "one month of free digital cable". I'm really not interested in digital cable, and I can't afford it, but I figured I would try it out. We scheduled an appointment for the following Tuesday morning (before noon to be exact), and I skipped work because I was pretty excited.

      Well 12:30 came and nobody showed up, and I angrily called Charter. We re-scheduled for a Saturday morning and even though I was pissed that I missed work, I was still kind of excited - the free didgital cable kind of made up for the money I lost from not working. The Saturday appt was from 10am-2pm, and around noon I decided to double-check with Charter to make sure that they were still coming. I was not surprised when they explained that my appointment had somehow been cancelled. They had wasted close to 8 hours of my time. The following Monday I called in to cancel my account with Charter. This is why I fucking hate telemarketers - even though they were offering free stuff, I had still gotten screwed.

      After negotiating with Charter's customer support (who were great by the way), I decided to accept their apologetic offer for 2 free months of Digital Cable plus my existing pipeline service, which was close to a $200 credit. That served as a nice apology for all my wasted time. My digital cable went in about May 1st.

      About mid-July, I got a bill from Charter for about $130, just as my Mother asked me to help her pick a high-speed internet provider. I called Charter and explained that the bill was in error and that as soon as they cleared it up I would sign my mom up for her account. After spending 45 minutes on the phone with a supervisor, I was told that the bill was correct and that I would still have to pay the full balance. I cancelled my account, and fired off a letter explaining in great detail that I would not pay any fees for services that they had offered for free. I received yet another bill for the full amount.

      The moral of the story is that Charter provided a pretty good service but did not hesitate to try to screw me. From now on I will be recording any phone calls that relate to billing issues, because there is a good chance that I will get stuck with this $130 bill even though they offered the service for free. Telemarketers suck. Charter sucks. Big companies suck, don't ever trust them.

      -dbc

  • I was very pleased to see on the Cox web site [cox.com] that they are working on integrating a PVR into the cable box as well. Woo hoo!

    Cox also rocks in that they are going to supply HDTV signals [cox.com]. Double woo hoo! Maybe it'll actually be worth buying an HDTV unit someday.

    • Charter already has HDTV available in my area. Despite having an HDTV-ready set, I haven't signed up yet. They want $89 for installation, which means that a guy with pants that don't fit is going to crawl around in my home theater set-up, screw it all up, and them I'm still going to have to spend an hour fixing it after he leaves. I'd rather be able to install it myself (ooh, the difficulty - plug the coax into the box, run component video and digital audio cables into my receiver - I hope I can handle it). I don't mind if they want to send an installer, but I don't want to pay that much money for a service I don't need.

      They also want $11/month extra for the HD service, on top of my already near-$100 bill (including internet and all the movie channels) and the only channels in HD are HBO and Showtime. When there are a few more channels on I might get it. It's not worth the hassle now.
  • My company, Mediacom(www.mediacomcc.com) is definitely looking into providing high speed web access via set-top boxes. For the most part we offer high speed internet access to places that sometimes can't even get a local dial up. Unfortunately, they haven't really committed to offering this type of access yet.

  • Benefits and drawbacks (Score:2, Informative)

    by jtl ( 14313 )
    There are some definite benefits to a combined system: digital channels can be recorded without being re-compressed, increasing quality; it's easier & more likely to be able to record more than one show at a time; it should cost less than two separate units duplicating functionality; the combined UI could be simpler to use.

    There are some pretty significant drawbacks, though. As others have pointed out, these units are unlikely to have features content providers dislike -- they certainly won't have automatic commercial skipping, and may not have 30-second skip; they're not likely to have internet video sharing; they may have restrictions on how long shows can be kept, how many times they can be played, and whatkinds of shows can be recorded. The biggest problem, though, is that the end user won't own the unit -- it'll be rented from the cable company. Thus, no modifications. No HD upgrades, no tivo web, no shell hacking, nada.
    • I think the box being rented from the cable companies is one of the best features. If you want to do all the modifications, shut up and buy a tivo, but I imagine a lot of people wouldn't want to shell out all the money up front and would prefer to rent one from the cable company (who also would replace it if it breaks or when a better one comes out).

      As for the stuff about commercial skipping/internet video sharing/etc. What is wrong with the cable companies trying to make money? Jeez, they are businesses who like to make money too. Commercials and pay-per-view bring in money, if people are skipping the commercials, then the advertisers will stop buying time. Commercials have been around forever, that's why we have the up/down channel button!!!! If you really hate commercials that much, stop watching TV!!!!
      • Commercials first appeared on "broadcast" television and you PAID for cable to be able to watch commercial free television (obviously not the same shows as on broadcast television, that's not what I'm saying). So, the cable company is already taking in money from its subscribers. I have digital cable, so they're also making money from putting commercials in the menu system. The cable shows all have commercials (unless you're watching a premium movie/PPV) and now the industry wants to start showing pop-up ads during television.

        For me, that'll be the last straw. Watching the Bond movie this past weekend, I was horrified to have to sit through 10 minutes of commercials for the privilege of watching 8 minutes of Bond. And the industry complains that viewers aren't watching the commercials -- seems to me like they're shooting themselves in the foot. I used to sit through commercials because the breaks were relatively short (2-3 30s commercials) so there wasn't *much* I could do. Now, I can easily get up, go check my email, switch over to the digital cable menu system to select what I'm going to watch for the rest of the evening, refill my drink, get ice, use the washroom - any number of things.

        Not to mention that a number of advertisements seem to think that making their ads as annoying as the banner ads that give you seizures is a good tactic, instead of paying money to have a decent design team work on an entertaining, high quality commercial spot.
        • I thought you paid for cable to get more/better quality channels, no more moving the antenna around and standing in strange positions to get the channel to come in. Most stations that are on cable are not owned by the cable companies, so they have a right to put commercials on so they can pay for all the good shows you watch. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that sometimes (ok, most times) they go over board with the commercial to show ratio and I hate the idea of popups, but you can't blame the cable companies/tv stations for wanting people to watch commercials, so if a company like Digeo wants to sell their boxes to cable companies, obviously they are not going to have commercial skip/etc stuff.
      • "when a better one comes out" -- you must have had better experiences with cable companies than I have. Why offer an upgrade when they've still got unused units from last year on the shelves? It's not like you can go buy from someone else...

        There's nothing wrong with them trying to make money -- did I say they shouldn't do this? Users just need to keep in mind that cable companies' interests aren't at all the same as their own.
  • At the beginning of this year, I was waiting for Moxi with baited breath. Their CES demo blew me away. Dish Network had a Moxi-box with 4 tuners that would be available by summer. Nearly 7 months later, they're still nowhere to be found. No cable, no Dish Network, no nothing. Now they're announcing another box that will be "available soon". It'll be nice if this actually happens, but in the meantime, I'm giving my Tivo and Tivo Series 2 the three thumbs up. Moxi, time to join Anna Kournikova in the lists of things that look sexy, turn you on, but in the end, don't deliver.
    • I don't believe that Dish Network EVER announced that a Moxi box would be available by summer. In fact, they never officially announced ANY Moxi box coming out, just that they were working with Moxi. Now that Digeo has purchased Moxi, I would imagine that they would now be focusing on cable boxes, not satellite. These business deals take time. Deal with it.

  • Sky+ (Score:1)

    by Xugumad ( 39311 )

    While I'm not aware of either companies involved with this box, it sounds a lot like the "Sky+" box we have in the UK. Basically, Sky, satellite TV company (and given that a lot of the country cannot receive cable, by far the supplier of TV beyond the standard 5 channels), has come up with a box that can spool the incoming digital TV signal on to HD.

    As the signal received is digital (I believe they actually use MPEG-2), there is no loss from encoding, except that at origin. The first boxes were released around a year ago, and although they've had their problems, seem like a good idea.

    The boxes sell for the equivalent of about $450, and have a monthly subscription cost of around $13 on top of that. They come with two tuners, so they can record one channel while you watch another, and are generally great.

    AFAIK they have no advert skip function, however they do allow time delaying of pay per view events (you can record them when you want, and then watch them whenever you want, although I beleive it erases them after watching).

  • ...define and use a standard interface. Tight integration is the enemy of both competition and creativity. Don't let them lock *your* ideas out!
  • The words "Moxi-like" in the post should be changed to "Moxi." This new box is using Moxi technologies, since Moxi was acquired by Digeo (also owned by Paul Allen earlier this year.

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