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Toshiba's iPod Competitor 395

a lonely moose writes: "It looks like Toshiba basically copied Apple's iPod. They got cheap on screen size and unit weight, and without iTunes, it'll be darn hard to handle as elegantly as the iPod. Anyway, check out MacCentral's article and the smoking forum at the bottom."
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Toshiba's iPod Competitor

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  • Removeable 5GB HDD (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jpaulson ( 463520 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:06PM (#3724154) Homepage
    Removeable 5GB HDD, that fits in a card slot...
    That has potential... I see many options... Most of them along the lines of a decent replacement for the floppy disk finally.

    The player itself seems no different from a host of others.
    • Isn't it just a laptop hard drive? Possibly some hotswap hardware may be coupled to it but, it's still just a laptop drive. That makes it an expensive floppy replacement not to mention somewhat fragile.
      • Well... To change the topic slightly, look at it this way:

        The Apple iPod can be split between music and data. So you could, in theory, put your absolute favourite music on it, and leave the rest of the space for a system folder (and some utilities).

        Apples can boot from Firewire drives.

        The new Apple XServe [] has, on the front, a FireWire port.

        So any responsible sysadmin that has to look after an XServe _needs_ an iPod as an *ahem* emergency recovery disk.

        Given that the Unix way is to have a "boot floppy" and a "fixit floppy", I'll go with Apple on this one :) Sounds like a "floppy replacement" to me!
      • it is not just a regular 2.5" hard drive. this is a 1.8" hard drive that is the same thickness as a type II PC card.

        check the link here []. While it is lots of storage for a little space, it is restricted to the maximum transfer rates of the PC card interface.
    • Removable... why? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by mblase ( 200735 )
      You've got 5GB of songs. An average 128-kbps MP3 file takes up, say, 5MB of space. That means you've got room for about a thousand songs on one drive. That's a thousand songs. Approximately the size of my entire music collection, including the ones I hate.

      So, aside from swapping your entire music collection with a buddy -- why in the world would you care if you can take the drive out and replace it?
      • It can plug into the pc card slot on your laptop. Pretty nifty, eh?
        • It can plug into the pc card slot on your laptop. Pretty nifty, eh?

          Not if I own a desktop, it's not. That's what the USB2 connector is for, right? So I can download songs from my computer to the portable? So who cares if I can move the drive from my computer to the player, if I can connect using a cord (and recharge the battery at the same time) already?
      • Once the screen goes color and hi-def enough, I can see this becoming a new format for portable movies...just about the right size for storing a DVD-sized movie....
      • That's enough for YOUR collection. Personally I've filled up a 20 gig drive. I would need 50-60 gigs to get most of my collection onto a player.
      • I don't know about you but I have about 40 gig of mp3 files and over 400 GB of SHN files. 5 GB is hardly enough space for a music enthusiasts collection especially if your encoding at higher bitrates, nobody should be encoding at 128 in the age of hard drives for around a dollar per Gigabyte.
      • So, aside from swapping your entire music collection with a buddy -- why in the world would you care if you can take the drive out and replace it?

        Well, if you have a laptop:

        Not everyone has USB 2 yet. In fact, I can't think of one laptop that has USB 2 built in. Sure, they might exist. But no one has them anyways.

        However, with this sort of removable hard drive, you can copy your music collection over a PCMCIA (PCI) interface rather than agonizing as your files copy over USB 1.x.

        That alone is worth something. Granted, most users will be people who only own a desktop machine, and thus have no PCMCIA slot. But if you have a laptop this is fantastic.

        However, I won't buy one because I simply don't need it.
    • ... a decent replacement for the floppy disk finally.
      We've had any number of good replacements for the floppy. Zip drives, those Imation things... Most of them are a lot cheaper than a kind of removable IDE disk. Of which this isn't even the first. The difficulty replacing the floppy has nothing to do with technology that happens to be better. We've had that almost as long as we've had 3.5" DSHD floppies. What's missing is the collective will to standardize on a replacment technology. Most of the "standard" features of the IBM-compatible were introduced by the fiat of just one company. There's no longer one company that dominates the hardware market that way. Which is a good thing, basically, but it plays hell with the idea of introducing a fundamental innovation and getting all manufacturers to accept it.
  • Now hopefully this will create better faster cheaper iPods and also have them a bit more open so many platoforms can use it. For me the fact the iPod only works on a mac isnt an insentive to buy a Mac or and iPod. It would actually be a turn off for both. Apple should put more concetration on open standards then making hardware that is incompatible for the reason "just because"
    • Whatever, the iPod hardware is not incompatible in any way. The software just isn't provided from Apple. do you think Toshiba will ship Mac software? I doubt it. Does that mean that it won't work? doubtfull. Several companies have produced software that makes the iPod work with Windows, and I'm sure you could do the same for Linux, et. al.
    • "Faster"?

      How much faster do you want it to play the music, anyway?


    • by mblase ( 200735 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:27PM (#3724326)
      Apple should put more concetration on open standards then making hardware that is incompatible for the reason "just because"

      Apple's iPod hardware is entirely compatible. It's just a hard drive, with MP3 data stored in a particular sort of file tree. It's the software that Windows and Linux need to access it, and Apple hasn't bothered making that for the simple reason that they're not in the business of making PC products.

      XPlay [] and EphPod [] both work, separately or together, to bridge the iPod/PC gap just as iTunes already does for Macs. And they do so with Apple's blessing, because Apple already knows that being able to sell iPods to PC users would be a good business decision -- but using iPods to help sell iBooks and iMacs is, from their end, an even better one.
      • Apple's iPod hardware is entirely compatible. It's just a hard drive, with MP3 data stored in a particular sort of file tree. It's the software that Windows and Linux need to access it, and Apple hasn't bothered making that for the simple reason that they're not in the business of making PC products.

        This is the standard excuse Apple constantly uses for shooting themselves in the foot. "We are not in the PC business" [which is why we implimented a completely proprietary way of doing what everyone else has been doing using standard protocols/hardware specs for years now].

        Apple keeps hoping to lure in new customers and then snare them with their proprietary hardware/software combination ("You can only do that with our stuff, switch to Apple"). What they do not understand is that anything sufficiently compelling will be implimented elsewhere, on people's preferred platform (whatever it may be), and that relatively few people are going to be compelled to switch platforms on the basis of such things.

        Wintel, for all of its faults, is at least open on the hardware side (even if you're unlucky enough to be running windows), and if you're using *BSD or GNU/Linux, it is a completely open system. Contrast this with Apples growing list of "works only with Apple" peripherals, from their iPods to their proprietary LCD monitors. To be fair Apple's OS X is based on an open and free system (*BSD), but if all of their filesharing and other functions are implimented with proprietary protocols on top of that, it means very little in terms of the overall openness of the system, which in turn translates to virtual imprisonment of the customer. That may be Apple's goal (just as it has been Microsoft and Sun's goal), but customers do not like to be imprisoned, even in a gilded cage, and Apple is playing a game that, rather than taking advantage of the growing backlash against Microsoft, is likely to put them squarely in the same camp from their users' point of view.

        Perhaps eventually Apple will manage to ensnare massive quantities of new people into their proprietary lock-in products ... but in the meantime their proprietary "we control everything and we interact with nothing" strategy means they deliberately cut off 90% of the market in a (likely vain) effort to make the other 10% look appealing.

        I have friends who are not GNU/Linux users, who have come to hate Microsoft with a passion, but are unwilling to switch to Apple because they know that then not only will their software be monopolized (by Apple), but so too will their hardware, putting them in an even worse (and even more expensive) predicament. What is interesting is that they, even without understanding all of their options vis-a-vis FreeBSD and GNU/Linux, still have managed to develope a sense of the entrapment proprietary hardware and software platforms imply, and they are sick to death of it (having experienced it first hand from Microsoft on the software side).

        Apple's leadership will have to learn, sooner or later, to work with open standards and make their products able to interact and function with computers in general, not just their particular brand. Until they do so they will never be anything more than a niche player, and likely a small niche at that. It is interesting how many people, desperate to leave Microsoft, are unwilling to switch to Apple because they see Apple's proprietary nonsense as even worse.

        And you know what? Even though they are relatively uninformed users, they are still absolutely right.

        It is frustrating to see a company that produces so many neat things behave in such a destructive manner. Destructive to their customers, destructive to the computing community and marketplace, and most of all destructive to themselves. One would have thought they would have learned from the last time they engaged in this particular folly and nearly went bankrupt as a result, but alas it appears not.
    • Because having a viable alternative product has always made Apple strive for opening their platforms, and cutting the prices. And it's worked wonderfully for them. Look at how their market share has gone up and up with every new release of Windows.
  • Let's see how Apple responds to a *little* bit of pressure?

    I say a little because it's USB 2, meaning it won't work with Macs right off the bat (connecting at USB1 speeds is a horrible idea).

    $402 vs $399 means that they are *exact* price competitors for each other, where one has FireWire support and the other has ejectable disc support.

    I suppose this means I can plug into my PC card slot and use iTunes (or the Finder) to update it at PCI speeds. Of course the laptop or PC card drive is still the speed bottleneck.

    I wanna see if Apple ignores it (possible, since it isn't cheaper or exactly platform compatible) or 'improves' the iPod. It's plausible that the pricing of the Gigabeat is because the market will 'bear' the price of a $400 iPod :)
    • Re:Yay competition! (Score:2, Informative)

      by Cryptnotic ( 154382 )
      USB 2.0 is faster than Firewire (current IEEE 1394 spec). Gigawire should be faster than USB 2.0.

      • Re:Yay competition! (Score:4, Informative)

        by benwaggoner ( 513209 ) <> on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:46PM (#3724476) Homepage
        I just finished writing an article for DV Magazine about FireWire yesterday, so I've got this on the brain.

        While USB2 does have a theoretical maximum data rate of 480 Mbps compared to 400 Mpbs with FireWire, FireWire does a much better job of time-critical streaming with its isochronous mode. Thus you can actually use a much higher percentage of the theoretical bandwidth with FireWire.

        Of course, we're talking 400 freaking Mbps here. A real-time stream of DV is only 25. Maxed out MP3 files are 0.32 Mbps. Heck, Panasonic is going to have 1280x720 HD decks that use FireWire later this year, and THAT is only 100 Mbps.

        USB2 also has less bus power than FireWire, so it can't charge bus-charged devices like the iPod as quickly.

        Also, while 1394b is coming, the name Gigawire is purely theoretical.

        1394b includes faster speeds over copper and optical connections (800 Mbps initially, with 1600 and 3200 coming), with run lengths up to 100 meters. It'll also do 100 Mbps over CAT-5, so you can route real-time video over existing wiring.

        There will be two new connector types. Bilingual cables will hook up to both legacy 1394 devices and 1394b. This means you can mix and match 1394 and 1394a devices and computers. There will also be the beta connector for 1394b only applications (not beta for "non-quite-done" but for the b in 1394b). There won't be any more of the 4-pin v 6-pin confusion in 1394b, thankfully. As long as you don't have any beta-only stuff, you can just use normal 6-pin FireWire cables for all your stuff.
        • 1280x720, 24bit, at 25 fps is more like 553 Mbs. Unless they use a JPG-like YCrCB-and-downsample transform. That would get the numbers down to about the right range. I imagine that neither color not spacial fidelity makes much difference for motion video.
  • by mellon ( 7048 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:13PM (#3724208) Homepage
    I have friends who use PCs, and I can't recommend the iPod to them. This looks like a fine substitute. However, if you have a Mac, I think the iPod is a better choice. My wife has an iPod, and I _really_ like the user interface. The Toshiba's user interface looks like it would be hard to operate while rollerblading, which is when I usually use it.
  • The pc card is definitely a win on the system. Lots of time I've talked to people who would buy the Apple iPod if it could mount on a PC WITHOUT a 3rd party vendor util software. What were they thinking in Cupertino when they decided the format of the drive should be HFS? Even Linux doesn't have HFS support in the kernel. vfat would have been so much interoperable.

    PPA, the girl next door.
    • I dunno, I suppose being able to encode metadata, boot off the drive, retain permissions (another form of metadata), and a few other things, makes the argument for HFS+

      Oh, and perhaps compatibility with over, what, 10 years of legacy might have helped too.

      HFS+ is interoperable, it's just that Microsoft doesn't implement HFS+, so yeah it's a pain to pay someone $40 to implement HFS+ support for you, but then what do you think Apple users have to deal with when buying PC oriented products?
      • but then what do you think Apple users have to deal with when buying PC oriented products?

        Nothing. The ability to read DOS formated disks and such has been in MacOS for at least 7 years, in the form of the PC Exchange control panel back in System 7.x.

        Unless you are referring to other devices (such as firmware incompatabilities for graphics cards, lack of drivers and such)....then of course, I completely agree w/ you.


    • They were thinking it would work on Macs, which is what it does, and it does it well. When are you going to learn that Steve Jobs doesn't want grubby little nerd whiners like you in his club?
  • the greatist part of the iPod is the seamless software/hardware integration. where is that here?

    with the iPod had the in line remote though:( oh well maybe soon, if you inspect the headphone jack there appears to be three unused contacts arround it. rumors have been on the iPod sites that apple will release an external control for it but nothing official yet. maybe this will bring it to market sooner.

  • First, Toshiba isn't the first to sell an "iPod competitor". We've already seen the Treo 10 [] ("...which is similar in appearance and function to the iPod...") and Nomad [] hit the market, with similar press responses.

    Second, the iPod has a lot more going for it than 5/10 GB and a FireWire connection. That thumbwheel on the front makes it insanely easy to navigate through the music stored on it (you just spiiiiiiin and click, versus click-and-click-and-click-and-click-and...). Instant sync with iTunes means that you can organize playlists on your desktop with a full-size keyboard and download them perfectly into your portable. If you've never held one, you'd be amazed how small and light it is.

    Bottom line: Apple's not the only high-capacity MP3 player on the market, and they know it, but they can sell theirs for higher prices because (a) they're selling to Mac loyalists and (b) they've got ease-of-use down to a science, to a degree almost no other company can match. Believe me, they're far from running scared.
    • by spectecjr ( 31235 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:23PM (#3724294) Homepage
      First, Toshiba isn't the first to sell an "iPod competitor". We've already seen the Treo 10 [] ("...which is similar in appearance and function to the iPod...") and Nomad [] hit the market, with similar press responses.

      The amusing thing is, even though the press might compare the Nomad 3.0 with the iPod, the Nomad 3.0 was leaked on the Creative Nomad newsgroups about a year before the iPod was announced.

      And all the specs were the same as when it was released.

      The details of their Audigy stuff were released at the same time.

    • Believe me, they're far from running scared.

      True, but they might be soon. As we all know, Creative is putting Firewire (called SB1394) on their cards. Is it me, or might this be a hint that Creative might put out a Firewire Nomad sometime soon? According to their site, the Nomad Jukebox 3 has Mac support AND Firewire(SB1394). The old Nomadas worked quite happily with iTunes too but there is no indication of the Nomad 3 working with iTunes :(. This might actually be and iPod killer.
  • Okay so it looks terrific [].

    But the bad news is towards the end of the article, when it comes to availability. Isn't it always the case with new products thatr look darn cool, and pre-announcements to make them even more desirable?

    • The Gigabeat MEG50JS will go on sale in Japan on June 22.[...] Toshiba said it has plans to put the Gigabeat on sale in the U.S. and then Europe although the company has not decided on a schedule for an overseas launch.

    Dammit, why are none of my friends in Japan for the World Cup. If only ....

  • You can sure get it pretty, but it will undoubtably cost you an arm leg compared to a similar performing product... And Windows support strait outta the box ta boot. I might just buy one now...
    • You do know that the iPod is ~$3 cheaper, and has been available for over 8 months now?

      You've been waiting 8 months for, um, a $3 cost saving?

      Or do you mean you don't want to buy the software that enables you to use the iPod on Windows machines? I guess to be fair, I guess official Windows support still is in the beta stage. The Gigabeat will probably reach US shores about the same time Apple updates to a 20gb iPod and official Windows support
  • by shmert ( 258705 )
    Main plus on the Toshiba seems to be swap capability on the drive. For upgradability reasons, mostly (which Apple never seems too concerned about). Sure, I can fit my entire MP3 collection on less than half my iPod's 5G drive, but then I filled the rest up with backups, documentation, etc.

    The things the Toshiba seems to be lacking are:
    a scroll wheel (which really seems like the ideal interface for navigation LONG lists)
    recharging from USB cable(?)

    The main reason I bought an iPod is it seemed like the first device I could actually use that would really take advantage of the Firewire ports on my computer, which I never ever used. The same seems true for this Toshiba and windows users. w/USB 2.0
  • by southpolesammy ( 150094 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:30PM (#3724352) Journal
    If the average CD-RW can hold approximately 650 MB of data, that comes out to needing just under 8 CD-RW's to hold what the single 5GB disk holds. A decent portable CD/MP3 player can be had for around $150, and let's round up to a 10-pack of CD-RW's for $20, plus a carrying case for the CD-RW's for $10.

    So here's what I don't the smaller profile of the device worth the extra $220?
    • Don't let it bother you - there are people out there who could care less how much things cost. These people are very different from you and I. They would rather lick the snot off a man's hairy ass than perform such a vulgar act as eating Kraft Macaroni and Cheese from a box. If they ever eat mac-n-cheese, you better bet they can tell you which provinces in Italy and France the pasta and cheese hailed from.
      • > They would rather lick the snot off a man's hairy ass than perform such a vulgar act as eating Kraft Macaroni and Cheese from a box.

        I think I might too. Maybe you'll catch a cold from buttock-snot licking (?!?!), but eat Kraft Macaroni and Cheese straight from the box and you're likely to break some teeth.

    • by spreer ( 15939 )
      With a CD/MP3 player I still have to:

      a) Carry around a big CD/MP3 player
      b) Carry around those 8 CDs
      c) Swap between those 8 CDs
      d) Find the CD with the album I want listen to
      e) Whenever I get a new album, burn a new CD that includes it.

      With my iPod, I drop it in my pants pocket and I'm done. No fishing for CDs, no carrying cases, no saying "oh shit" when my CDs get scratched.

      Absolutely worth it.

    • Yes.

      I'm a BIOS developer and spend lots of long hours in a very noisy machine room hunched over prototype machines will all sorts of fan and other noise around... My iPod is small enough to drop in my shirt pocket which is a good thing because the amount of hanging cable to my ears is much shorter than a larger device on my belt (think about hazard getting caught in fans, etc).

      Also the battery life (10 hours) is long enough that I can go all day on a major debug bender and not worry about my tunes dying right about the time I get to an interesting problem.

      Also having multiple CD-RWs means I've got multiple CDs floating around the lab that I need to protect from scratches or from other people clipping, etc.

      I may develop PC hardware, but I love my iPod (and yes... the iPod was enough for me to go out and buy a G4 PowerMac)
    • So here's what I don't the smaller profile of the device worth the extra $220?

      Kind of a simplification of the features, eh?

      - Smaller profile
      - No swapping of 8 CDR
      - No burning of CDR... just copy over and go
      - New hard drives will be made with larger capacities.
      - These hard drives are PC Cards, so they can be used for other things as well as this device.

      Yeah, I think that makes it worth an extra $220!
    • The closest analogy to using a CD-MP3 player versus an iPod is using a dozen different DOS boot disks to play a game versus having a dozen shortcuts on your windows desktop. Either one will let you hear the music/play the game that you want to...but one it noticable more elegant and workable, not to mention easier for the average user to handle.
    • by rsborg ( 111459 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @07:13PM (#3725528) Homepage
      So here's what I don't the smaller profile of the device worth the extra $220?

      Perhaps. Here are the reasons I can think of to justify the cost:

      • Form factor, as you mentioned. No MP3CD players will fit in my shirt pocket (iPod), or even my pant pocket (this new Toshiba thingy)
      • Hard drive == skip resistant. Okay, given that most of the MP3CD players these days are resistant enough, I still managed to buy one last year that wasn't (impossible to play on airplane).
      • Convenience. iPod does it right, by charging the device as you download, and transfer time is miniscule. Also, the single unit, single connection is much less clutter than 10+CD's, a CD-burner, The MP3CD player, a case, the charger, etc. Besides, once you burn the CD's you must reburn to get what you want. And as Apple knows well, interface *does* matter
      • Batteries. I hate em. Even rechargable NiMH AA's are a pain in the ass. AFAIK, no MP3CD player has a built-in battery pack.

      So in short, I think it's just a bit more than profile.

  • Does this have a rechargeable Li-Polymoer battery like the iPod or do I have to buy AAs and a clunky charger that I'll have to carry around.

    One of the beauty of Firewire is that the iPod or any device can charge off it. No need for an adapter.

    Anyone know the battery life of the Gigabeat ?
  • Dammit. Why can't someone come out with something that has Vorbis support. MP3's sound like shit on my car stereo, the bass distorts way too easily. Vorbis sounds great, but I don't wanna carry a laptop around my car to listen to all my vorbis files.

    The second someone releases a decent player like this with vorbis support is the second I fork over a few hundred bucks for one.
  • by CanadaDave ( 544515 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:37PM (#3724416) Homepage
    Has anyone gotten Linux running on this yet? I'd really like to install Debian and be able to run X.
    • (for actually using the device in conjunction with your Linux based PC)

      I know kernel 2.5.2 has USB 2.0 support, but does USB 2.0 have some kind of generic storage support like USB does? What filesystem does the device use? If so, would it be easy to simply mount the device as a generic USB 2.0 filesystem without writing drivers?
      • Hrm... some further google research found this on

        Device: Disks, CD-RW, etc.
        Driver: usb-storage
        Comments: Linux USB 2.0 support seems to work pretty well for the usb-storage devices that now exist, though it's slowed down since the usb-storage driver does not queue its USB requests. (Some devices will run twice as fast when that's fixed.) Most devices seem to use the In-System Design ISD-300 part internally.
      • USB 2.0 is pretty much the same as 1.0 as far as I know, and largely backwards-compatible. Most of the advantages in USB 2.0 are at the hardware level, in terms of higher bit rates and such...
  • Could be better. (Score:2, Informative)

    by Alex Thorpe ( 575736 )
    Speaking from a Mac user's perspective, the Toshiba player isn't too useful. USB2 is only available on the Mac to tower users who spend extra money, and I saw no mention of Mac software anyway. The removable hard drives are a long term advantage, not a short term one.

    Myself, my iPod just arrived in the main today, so I've put my money where my mouth is. I'm off to work with it now! :-)
  • 5GB Drive for $321!! (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Lally Singh ( 3427 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:42PM (#3724452) Journal
    The removable drives are $321!! At the Apple Store [], you can pick up the same drive mechanism with a firewire interface for $99! Not sure if this link will work for everyone: ppleStore.woa/51/wo/0xQ0h03uOCgCTPRvcF2/ . .
  • Toshiba already has a 20GB drive 20GB Drive" []

    I have 12GB of music (all legally ripped from my own CD's thanks...) so 20GB is the minimum I want from my mp3 player. you never know when you want to hear some Mozart or some Merzbow. I want it all on one player. Can't the device makers get that? Why not sell it it with no drive and offer a 5, 10 and 20GB option?


    • Re:Only 5GB (Score:2, Informative)

      by abigor ( 540274 )
      Try the Archos Jukebox. I believe they offer a variety of hard drive sizes (10 and 20? Can't remember). I'm going to buy the 20GB one, I think -- it makes a handy portable hard drive for data, too.
  • The next step (Score:3, Insightful)

    by FigWig ( 10981 ) on Tuesday June 18, 2002 @04:54PM (#3724531) Homepage
    Add a more powerful CPU/ASIC, video out, firewire. Then you can load divx ;) movie rips or DV straight from your camcorder. Ignore copyright bits and you could swap movies just by plugging one device into another. Allow an optional color LCD screen of decent size so you can watch movies on the go.

    Then you have a portable media library.

  • "Partly because of the hard disk slot and ejection mechanism, the Toshiba player is slightly larger but not by much. It measures 7.2 centimeters (cm) by 2.2 cm by 11.2 cm, which puts it around 1 cm wider and taller than the iPod. At 180 grams with no disk and 235 grams with the drive inserted, it also weighs more than the Apple player, which is 185 grams including its internal hard disk.

    Other features include...."

    wait, you just told me why NOT TO buy it, and then go on like you were telling me why TO buy it??

    this article is retarded.
    • What is so retated about an artical that's honest and non-biast? Would you think it's a better artical if they tried to con you or something?

      ...Crackhead moderadors.

      • nooooooooooo...

        read the comment slower. and the paragraph slower.

        i'll give you an example: i'm selling poop, my competitor sells juicy hamburgers.

        my poop is really stinking and not edible at all. it is full of bacteria and should stay away from your mouth. our competitors products can be eaten safely. other features of our poop...

        DO YOU GET IT NOW?! they say its bad, its bad, then "other reasons why its good"...... the structure is completely wrong.

        ... Crackhead repliers.
  • Considering the the hard drive card alone is currently running about $350 (cheapest pricewatch price at a place called Googlegear []), its hard to argue with the value of this device.

    Buy it for value of the hard drive alone. The MP3 player is a bonus.
  • I hate to post this... but competition is a good thing. Even if you like the iPod better, the fact that it has a competetor (or several) will likely make it more affordable.

To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing. -- Elbert Hubbard