Public CD Copying Machine in Australia 410
kanad writes: "With all the news of banning cd burners, taxing blank CD-Rs, DMCA, and whatnot in the U.S., here's a breather from Australia. Some stores have installed coin-operated CD copying machines. Basically it's very simple: put the CD to be copied and a blank CD in two different slots and drop your coins and Presto! In 10 minutes you get a copy. It even bypasses some anti-copying measures. ... Obviously the burden of not violating copyright rests with the user under Australian law, which is the same as that applied to photocopiers. Today evening I saw the machine and it's really cool. Wonder what would happen to this machine in U.S. and Europe."
are they available INSIDE supermarkets ? (Score:2, Interesting)
a music CD or a game, make a copy, and
go out...
by the way, this would be an
interesting use of a laptop with a Cd-RW,
when I think of it !
Re:are they available INSIDE supermarkets ? (Score:2)
Except here it costs at least 7 cents a page to photocopy. For magazines that isn't bad because you can skip the ads, but I've photocopied entire out of print books before and believe me, it isn't as cheap as getting the Dover Press version.
The trappings of fame... (Score:4, Funny)
Wow! Linus has a tribute band...
Gerv
Copy protection, eh? (Score:2, Redundant)
Re:Copy protection, eh? (Score:3, Informative)
I would imagine it could probably copy playstation discs (presuming they use disc-at-once mode, and if they claim to bypass some copy protection, it most likely is). Of course you would still need a modchip (can't put the information into the CD hub that is needed. I don't know what safedisc is even
cdrdao works great for PSX backup... I'll never have to open my Lunar box sets to play ever again.
Re:Copy protection, eh? (Score:4, Informative)
If this device doesn't use a standard CDR drive, then maybe their copying system CAN make perfect copies.
If this machine were in the U.S...... (Score:2, Funny)
Of course you can (Score:3, Informative)
Apparently the only point of contention is the ability to amplify weak sectors of Safedisc 2 discs. CloneCD will disable that ability if your Windows profile indicates you live in the US.
At any rate, get yourself a Lite-On LTR-24102B (24x burner) for about $110 off pricewatch and get a copy of CloneCD for $31 and you'll be able to copy more or less any disc out there.
Well, now that the cat is out of the bag (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Well, now that the cat is out of the bag (Score:2, Funny)
please Jack even LOOKS like a mobbster. I am sure that he has connections.
Re:Well, now that the cat is out of the bag (Score:2)
Re:Well, now that the cat is out of the bag (Score:3, Funny)
"In the wake of the infamous Apalachin Conference in November 1957, the New York State Crime Commission began an investigation of the individuals from New York who attended the meeting. Constenze "Stanley" Valenti, the recognized boss of the Rochester Family, and his brother Frank were jailed for civil contempt after failing to answer the questions of the commission members."
"By 1920, the Morello-Terranova-Saietta rule was being seriously challenged by Guiseppe Masseria. The challenge would not last long. Vincent Morello was murdered on East 116th Street and later powerful ally, Umberto Valenti, was ambushed by Masseria gunmen."
"Uno "sgarro" commesso in ambienti criminali:
"[Raymond] Valenti
A "James J. Valenti" is/was a member of the Tampa mob family.
"Ucciso a Scordia Gaetano Valenti, secondo gli inquirenti affiliato al clan Di Salvo."
As you can see, the Valenti name is well-established in the mob circles.
Now, can anyone trace ol' Jack's family tree...?
Re:Well, now that the cat is out of the bag (Score:2)
Limited use (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Limited use (Score:2)
It certainly won't have any applications outside of Oz, that's for sure...
Where to find one... (Score:3, Informative)
I've never used it, so I don't know if there's anything it won't copy, but I also have never seen anyone else using it. I have severe doubts about its popularity. I'm not surprised that it was allowed because as a potential form of income I'd bet the Uni jumped at the chance. But that's just Monash I guess.
digitally identical copies of CDs . . . (Score:2, Funny)
popping noise (Score:5, Insightful)
Xerox machines were to the publishing industry are what the Boston Strangler was to a woman alone, to paraphrase Jack Valenti. Given that no one bothers to write books anymore since perfect copies can be made inexpensively, I'm sure we'll wise up this time and stop this reckless sharing of information in its tracks.
Re:popping noise (Score:3, Insightful)
Indeed. And to point out another flaw in the photocopier analogy, there is only one real-world "fair use" defense for this machine (in the U.S.): The purpose of the copy.
The "character" of the copy cannot be used as a defense, since it is effectively identical to the original.
The "nature of the copyrighted work" cannot be used as a defense, since we are almost invariably talking about for-profit, commercially produced CDs (no one who could create their own original CDs would need this machine to help them make copies.)
The "relative amount" cannot be used as a defense, since the CD is copied in its entirety.
And the "effect on the market" cannot be used as a defense, since even legitimate backup copies take sales away from the industry.
The only legitimate "purposes" that I can see for using this machine are backups and space-shifting (though I don't know what legal standing these have). When was the last time you "backed up" a book with a photocopier?
So let's stop clouding the issue with this ridiculous book/photocopier analogy.
(IANAL)
Re:popping noise (Score:2, Interesting)
Indeed, let's continue it:
What is the difference between this and photocopiers? I see none. And I am a university student. I cannot even count the number of people I personally know who photocopy their entire textbook collection from the library. And they bring these copies to class. It is not hidden. It is common practice.
You don't see the publishing industry going bankrupt because Xerox came into play. Nor did you see laws come into play regarding the use of photocopiers - the same old copyright laws still held. The USER is responsible, not the manufacturer.
Re:popping noise (Score:5, Insightful)
It does not take a genius to figure out that "$150 a textbook" or "$15 a CD" is not the fair market price, nor does it take a genius to figure out that such price gouging depends on the active collusion of sellers to the customer's disadvantage. I submit that when customers know they are being gouged, whether through overpriced textbooks sold to a captive student audience or overpriced CDs sold by a cartel with a large proportion of the musician population under long-term contractual captivity, they are highly likely to attempt to turn the situation around on the gougers.
Antitrust law enforcement is supposed to prevent such anticompetitive pricing from taking place, but with a few high-profile exceptions, the authorities have abdicated their role. What we see in the copying wars is old fashioned vigilante justice, and it's going to continue until the Justice Department regains its guts and goes after the publishing/music cartels.
(thank you for indulging this rant.)
Re:popping noise (Score:2, Insightful)
I agree with the rest of your comment, but I'm not sure how legitimate backups take sales away from the industry. If I had to buy another copy of, say, Windows in order to have a backup, I'd just learn to live without a backup. Let's face it, people are generally pretty poor at backups when its free - I can't see a lot of people buying two of every album/software/etc just to have a backup available...
Re:popping noise (Score:2)
Of course not. The second one would be a replacement, not a backup.
This is probably what kept "Dark Side of the Moon" on the charts for ~15 years. Vinyl wore out quickly, and needed to be replaced. I don't think this would have happened if consumers had had the ability to create perfect backup copies.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with making backups, just that they do affect the industry.
Here in Canada.. (Score:3, Informative)
Not just in stores (Score:3, Informative)
Maybe we'll have a USB port on the next models for easy burining from your laptop.
$70 million a year loss? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd really like to know the source of this number. This number implies something like 7 million illegal copies being distributed per year. (This assumes, for argument's sake, an average of $10 per cd retail.) I'm not sure there are that many blank cds being sold per year in Australia. Did they just take the number of blank cds being sold, multiply by the cost of some of the more expensive cds, and assume every cd was used to make a infringing copy of a music cd? To top that off, did they assume that if the recipient of that music cd hadn't gotten the infringing copy, the album would've been purchased instead?
Personally, I have just as many data cds as music cds, and most of the music cds I have are copies of my own music for travel and taking mp3s of my music to work.
Re:$70 million a year loss? (Score:5, Funny)
I'd really like to know the source of this number.
Well, it probably includes $65 million worth of legal fees.
Re:$70 million a year loss? (Score:2)
And the other $5 is for lobbying.
Re:$70 million a year loss? (Score:4, Funny)
Scientific Wild Ass Guess.
"Well you see we looked at the numbers of CD-Rs sold, and figured that every one of them is used for music piracy, and guessed that if no one had access to pirated music they would all purchase legitimate CDs instead, at a cost of $130 per disc, because we could milk them for whatever price we want, and they would purchase two of each CD because people like to have backups, and then we did some multiplication..."
Re:$70 million a year loss? (Score:2, Insightful)
They are probably estimating closer to 2.5 - 3 million illegal copies each year. Still sounds fairly unrealistic, but probably closer to the mark than 7 million.
Another note, when it says it costs $5 to use, thats closer to $2.50 american, so it's cheaper than other people have been pointing out.
Re:$70 million a year loss? (Score:2)
Re:$70 million a year loss? (Score:2)
Re:$70 million a year loss? (Score:2, Insightful)
Given the quote is from a music industry guy, it seems reasonable to assume the figure given applies only to music. But since when has this sort of propaganda been reasonable.
$7 bucks...... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:$7 bucks...... (Score:2)
We all assume we are being screwed when it comes to buying a CD for $16.95. Is this because we can buy a stack of 50 blank CD-R's for about the same price?
Besides the cost of the media there are other costs involved in making CD's. Recording studio time, editing, cover art, packaging costs, marketing costs, distribution costs, and I am sure the list goes on. Considering CD's cost me about $16 at record stores in 1986 and they cost $16 in record stores now just how am I being screwed? I can buy them in discount and department stores like Target for about $2 less than a record store in the mall or online for about $2 less than at the mall. But still, considering the end cost to the consumer hasn't really changed in 16 years how can you complain? In most cases they are even cheaper because there are more outlets and certain stores can take less of a markup.
Re:$7 bucks...... (Score:2)
Sure there are other costs, but of all the ones you listed above, packaging and distribution are the only ones record companies pay for. The rest comes out of the royalties that would get paid to the artist. The artist doesn't see a cent until all the up-front costs are recouped. For a pretty good explanation of how this works, see this article [negativland.com] by Steve Albini, a producer you may have heard of.
Another completely far wing article (Score:5, Interesting)
You can buy knifes at stores. That makes murder as easy as 1.2.3.
Duh. Why do people think they are original when they take item X and immediately point out it can be used for crime Y.
I mean if we sold bullets at corner stores than you'd read a news article that says something along the lines of "new store makes kids with guns a ready proposition." etc...
Did it ever occur to those people that business people put slide shows on CDs now? Maybe they will use the public burners [although I couldn't imagine so] for copying their own work!
The point is these lines of thinking have got to stop. Anything can be used to comit a crime and it isn't very intelligence to insight people to be against technology X for that reason.
Tom
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2, Funny)
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:3, Insightful)
On the other hand, I have a much easier time thinking of everyday legitimate uses for knives (cutting food, opening packages, spreading butter) than I do for a machine that can only do exact CD duplication.
The machine is limited or fails in many of the traditional legitimate uses of a regular CD burner:
I think overall, the majority of usage of the machine will be of a copyright infringing nature. And unlike a photocopier, which manages to prevent many improper uses through cost and inconvenience, this machine would be a casual music/software pirate's dream.
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
I can think of one right now. Say this machine is damn fast. Also say you are Joe Sixpack businessman, who hadly knows how to use Google let alone burn a CD, who just payed some WebTwerp 200 bucks to make you a flashy presentation for your big meeting. You decide you want to give each of the 20 execs a copy of the CD, and you need it within the hour. What do you do? run ove rto the machine, amde a quick 20 copys (I assume these things are fast). You can liken it to OfficeDepot's copying service. Sure, most large companies have photocopiers at their disposal. And alot of people have CD burners at their disposal. but whne you need a bunch of copys fast, you go to the copy place. That's how it works. Who ever needs a bunch of CD copys fast? I sure as hell I'd never use one of these things to copy a CD. Like I even use CD players anymore anyways.
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
First, I was comparing the piracy convenience of the machine to the extreme piracy inconvenience of a photocopier. Doing fair use(?) copies of two pages out of a book using a photocopier is cheap and easy. Attempting to photocopy an entire book takes quite a bit of effort and usually exceeds the cost of purchasing the book.
Second, a CD burner carries with it quite a bit of overhead -- especially if the person doesn't already own a computer. Compare that to $7/copy, which is approximately 25% of the cost of a CD in Australia. Furthermore, if you're already at the mall or the convenience store with friends, it's not a particularly inconvenient setting. And the actual copying process is convenient in the sense that it requires no on-going user interaction to facilitate the copy (as compared to photocopying the individual pages of a book).
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:4, Insightful)
Somebody should tell Glenn A. Baker that some copright holders like that kind of copying. They have as many moral and legal rights as he does, he is very inconsiderate.
http://www.openmusicregistry.org/ [openmusicregistry.org]
http://www.fsf.org/ [fsf.org]
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
That's great if you have access to a CD burner or only use mp3s. I suspect, however, that the machine will get a fair amount of use from friends who're hanging out together and decide to play the distributed cost game. (Following values are AUD.) With a $30 CD and two $7 copies, it boils down to only $14.67 (or roughly half price) per person if 3 friends use it to get a CD.
Furthermore, there are many people who own music CDs but who don't own computers. There are also many people who carry part of their CD collections in their cars.
Finally, I seem to recall Australians complaining about some of the bandwidth costs associated with home internet access. That could make using a P2P service an expensive proposition.
Re:you missed some (Score:2)
You present a number of legitimate, non-infringing uses. I'll even admit that I dropped the ball by not mentioning them in my previous post. The problem is that they aren't especially likely.
Most of the CD-based information people deal with is corporate or commercial in nature. I think it's great that we have garage bands, public access TV, and amateur films, but I don't think they'll ever compete with the level of permeation seen by pop stars, network TV, and Hollywood. Even Linux, with its many benefits, doesn't have the overall marketshare of Windows (even if it is holding its own in the server realm).
In short, I see this service being used similarly to how many of the popular music-based P2P services are used -- despite the occasional legit use, most of the traffic is Britney Spears, Linkin Park, N'Sync, and System of a Down.
Re:you missed some (Score:2)
Kintanon
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
That's a whole multi-gig flamewar in and of itself.
But the short answer is that copying material in violation of the copyright means that you're enjoying the fruits of someone's labor without contributing anything toward the initial cost that went into producing the information content of the item.
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
Many reasons (pick your favorites):
--
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
First, I'm not sure what relevance your original CD comments have. Even assuming the system will only copy an original, store-bought CD (a claim which I can't find supported in the article), I don't see how that changes what I wrote. I even posted an example of using the system to pirate an original CD in this [slashdot.org] comment.
Second, my educated assumption (which I admit is a bit of a guess) that the machine doesn't do mixes is based on the descriptions provided. It's possible the article just fails to mention it, but everything I read implied it's operation consisted of "Insert CD X. Insert blank CD-R. Insert money. Remove two CD X's."
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
Even paying $.10 per page is a lot if you're thinking in terms of piracy. That's $20 for a 200 page novel that maybe retails for $7 or $8. Furthermore, even with a home copier, it's pretty damn inconvenient to photocopy every pair of pages (assuming you can fit both on a single sheet). If, on the other hand, you're only photocopying a few pages out of the work(such as an important passage for a research paper), that generally falls under fair use provisions.
In contrast, the CD duplicator requires less human intervention (insert entire source, insert blank destination, insert money, wait), and it lets you make duplicates at a cheaper cost than the retail price of the mass published work.
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2, Funny)
Discovery of Fire will enable thousands of cavemen to commit arson! Our neolithic future is now uncertain! We must STOP THEM!
Re:Another completely far wing article (Score:2)
I love gunheads. They are so reliable in their old tired arguments.
I also forgot hunting, skeet-shooting, shooting in the air for effect on New Years, quickly deflating tires, opening locked doors in a hurry, etc.
And your point? I'm sure I could buy a copy of Hustler to use as kindling, or swat flies, or practice origami, but THAT'S NOT SAYING MUCH, NOW IS IT DOC?
The fact is gunheads are a small minority in this country that hold us all hostage. Buying a gun is like inviting the devil into your home. While that thing sits under your bed, or locked in the basement, or wherever the heck you put it, it is far more likely to be used in anger in a domestic situation, or found by a kid, or stolen, or whatever else, than it is ever going to be used to deter any crime whatsoever while you snore away at 3 AM.
Are you happy gun owners so omnipotent that you can guarantee the safety of yourself and everyone around your gun? Are you a demigod? Of course you can't! Why do you think it guarantees your safety? As soon as you own one, your safety just went down a few notches, can't you see that?
Fact: guns invite terrible consequences in situations where no access to guns would mean the situation would end with much less bodily harm: to yourself, an enemy, to anyone! How can you possibly deny that logic? Are you that naive? Turn off the old black and white Western there cowboy, justice does not flow from the barrel of a shiny six-shooter like the fires of righteous judgment. Bullets fly from the barrel of a
Real life is far too frail and fickle for one good man to control with his trusty sidearm. It's a fantasy. And a fantasy we are all paying with statistically with unwanted deaths.
Do guns stop home break-ins? Of course they do! Is that tiny miraculous percentage worth the much larger percentage of unintended consequences and purposeful criminal use of guns? Do you need the question repeated?
"Outlawing guns won't change anything except give them to the criminals." Guess what there cowboy? I agree with you! But not anywhere near as close to the extent criminals already have guns now! Not by a long shot!
NO way... could I actually be saying that easy availability of guns means more guns are used in crime?! Whodathunkit! Could this possibly be true! Please...
This is common sense here genius. And in a hypothetical future where guns are outlawed in this country, gun ownership would be a red flag for the criminal behavior they usually are involved in, rather than the mythical, I've been watching-too-many-John-Wayne movies behavior most people with delusions of omnipotence think guns are involved in.
Are you Judge Dread? Didn't think so cowboy. Do this country a favor and lose the Beavis and Butthead fascination with things that make loud noises and save this country thousands of lives each year, ok?
Want to be a man? Get that gun away from yourself and your family and save yourself from an evil in your life. Your manhood is not defined by how many piles of shiny gunmetal you collect and show off to your friends. Buy a motorbike instead if you are feeling like shouting out some testosterone, ok?
I absolutely hate gunhead morons. Time and history is against you. Just you wait.
Confidential to the asshole who marked me flamebait: go ahead and mark me flamebait again, I've got 49 more karma points to waste and a big chip on my shoulder.
This should be legal in Canada... (Score:2, Interesting)
It would be most cool as well.
I can tell you (Score:3, Funny)
RIAA Lawyer: we are sueing this store's ass off for contributing to the theft of music
Defence Lawyer: Ummm Dude, they have the rights to make back up copies of their CDs.
RIAA Lawyer: no they don't, back in 98 we had a party where the US congress and the entertainmnet industry whiped out our dicks and pissed on all the US copyright law. Now we get to piss al over the consumer, see. *whips out dick and pisses on the defence lawyer and onlookers*
They have one of these at a CD shop in town (Score:2, Interesting)
Its one of those places that buys and sells used CD's.
For $3 you can copy any CD in the store.
in the U.S. (Score:5, Funny)
The RIAA/Senate approved team would use high-powered digital binoculars to take pictures of those copying CD's and the label of the CD they are copying. Hooked to a RIAA central database of copyrighted labels, the team's computer system would alert them to possible copyright infrigement and the SWAT would be activated.
Surveillance: We've got a Metallica copy in-progess. Mobilize SWAT Unit Charlie Omega Papa Yankee
SWAT: Ok, Sectors 2 and 3 take the rear of the copy device. Sector 1, you're with me, we'll provide coverage from the lingerie aisle. On 1 we go, 3... 2... 1... Swarm Swarm Swarm !!!
Well, maybe I'm just being paranoid...
Re:in the U.S. (Score:2)
Re:in the U.S. (Score:2, Flamebait)
Re:in the U.S. (Score:2)
This isnt only in Adelaide (Score:3, Funny)
The only bad thing is you have to stand there for ten minutes while it burns, i think they should have a little screen with something to do like a version of pong even!!
Australia is hardly a haven for freedom (Score:2)
Lee
Old news (Score:2, Informative)
These things are old news. I saw one nearly 12 months ago in, of all things, a fish and chip shop near the Cleveland markets in Brisbane. I'll be a lot happier though if they start popping up more often.
Ray.
They've been in Oz for ages... (Score:3, Informative)
Basically they are a CDR drive with a bare-bones computer inside - just enough to run the copier and the software it uses. Different manufacturers are using different spec'd machines iirc, but most of them come in a large wooden box quite similar to the old arcade machines.
Oh, and just FYI - they're about as popular down here in Australia as the Adobe is with russians. I.E, they're a huge bloody flop.
a good thing... (Score:5, Insightful)
Obviously you should get credit for your creations, but at some point, it's insane. These machines will be banned in some form or another because "they're a threat to the artists work."
Think about this for a minute. Do you actually think that someone whose bootlegging CD's is gonna go to the supermarket and burn 40,000 CD's, print out labels, and go? NO. it's gonna be highschool kids who want they're friend to listen to their new CD. Yes, they'll be making billions of dollars worth of pirated music, but these kids don't have money to buy that much anyways. besides, I'd hope that most people are like me- they listen to a bunch of different types of music, and pick the best- then purchase that CD because they'd feel guilty if the didn't.
I think the one who is really afraid of this technology is lou pearlman(creator or most of those teenie-pop bands). Kids get an allowance and can only afford one CD, what do you think they listen to? What they're friends tell them is good Hence, if they can experiment freely with music, you'll notice the quality of music being played on mtv improve.
I'm a musician, and this is how I feel.
Maybe I‘m just daft... (Score:2, Interesting)
As long as you are allowed backup copies of stuff you bought this machine can be used for legal stuff. Small bands might even use it to duplicate their demos. That might help more than it hurts.
I think I remember that Adobe explicitly allowed you to install a license of Photoshop on two machines, but you were not allowed to run both copies at the same time (I could be totally wrong of course, what with memory working the way it does...). In the same spirit I might want to have a burned copy of a cd in the car and the original at home.
A lot of people will use these things for theft. Maybe that is where the profit should come from. These things still sound incredibly usefull to me and I would like to have one of those in European copy shops.
And its name is... (Score:3, Funny)
Surprised it didn't happen sooner... (Score:2, Insightful)
In my opinion, the best thing that the music industry could do to combat this is to lower the cost of original media relative to blanks. I mean, it's now possible to buy videotapes of movies cheaply enough that the time & expense associated with copying them makes it an uneconomical proposition. The same could be done for music CDs, and DVDs.
I find it difficult to believe that the record industry, and also in fact the film industry, can expect us to be happy about paying a premium for CDs or DVDs above casettes based solely on the reproduction quality. If it's still economical to sell a film on VHS tape, or music on casette tape, for a fraction of its cost a few years ago, it should be possible to do the same with CDs and DVDs - Especially considering that the manufacturing costs for a CD or DVD have to be lower than those for tape based media.
I have seen a few (Score:2)
Won't Last (Score:2)
Wait a minute, you say, I purchased the media and should have fair use to it, I totally agree with you, but almost everyone that I know that copies music, for whatever reason, has access to a CD burner either in their computer, or a friends computer. So what's the point of this machine? Convenience. But it won't happen here, too many corrupt politicians...cough...Hollings...cough... and media barrons.
Amigori
Re:Won't Last (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Won't Last (Score:2)
Does it do the label too? (Score:2)
Ten minutes seemed pretty slow until I remembered these are stationed in convienience stores. Right next to the candy aisle, I bet. You'd think a dedicated machine would use a buffer and read/write at the same time, making 10 minutes too long on a 24x writer, but they probably agreed to slow it down in exchange for floor space.
Pictures, and more info: (Score:5, Informative)
It actually looks kind of neat. That article will give you the lowdown of how it works, and what kind of profit you can expect. Neato.
I think that I'll stick with my Pinball Machines [ruttencutter.com] or to writing Movie Reviews [thatmoviesucked.com]
It is already paid for (Score:3, Insightful)
ahh nice, then its already paid for, no more complains.. no problem.
lets copy.
Today is the day.. not my first post, but registered post number 100 after coming here day in and day out since dec97.
Don't forget prices in Aussie dollars (Score:2, Informative)
Old news in Perth... (Score:2, Informative)
I've actually used one of these... not so good... (Score:3, Funny)
Stealing the invisible (Score:2, Interesting)
And I think it's a kind of gutless thievery. People will rationalize this because they aren't stealing anything tangible. But future economics will be based on the intangible.
This shows that ethics is directly related to what people can get away with. People are more than willing to steal if it's easy, but they don't have the balls to steal the CD player to play their stolen CDs in.
Jim Harris
Re:Stealing the invisible (Score:3, Funny)
Which newsletter is it you subcribe to, and how may I subscribe, so that I too, may know the future?
Re:Stealing the invisible (Score:3, Interesting)
The U.S. has been moving towards a "service industry" for YEARS, as our imports have greatly outnumbered our exports.
I see it as, "If you don't have anything to offer, you've only screwed yourself."
Music and Publishing are not service industries. Like you said, just look at trends. I saw this coming before I got into High School, the service industry (not just waitressing) is where the future is. Not the resale of physical property.
Jobs aren't "Lost" they're merely transferred from production to service. This is why there are so many 40yr olds going back to school. Someone working in a 'plant' for 40 or 50 years is rare now. Career changes are expected.
Eventually, the concept of owning an Idea forever will go away, and you WILL be able to replicate a Mercades legally (via Star Trek). But not until after you've purchased the rights to it.
There would be no product on the shelf as you invision. Only the plans would need to be sold.
Only the uninformed think that copying computer data is any different from Xeroxing a book. No, it doesn't take much longer to do OCR a physical book than it does to copy an ebook. I did that for a living 10 years ago (legally OCR'ing manuals for companies). Burning a CD now takes just as long as OCR'ing 500 pages 10 years ago (on a 286).
You're almost there, you realize the future is coming, and there are legal issues, but you havn't let go of classic manufacturing...
Is it so hard to see the trend that stealing digital copies of music, movies, books, etc will hurt the economy, and destroy jobs?
Actually, yes. Stealing in the digital age is not the same as it was 100 years ago. You envision Star Trek repliation of a Mercedes. If that car is stolen, who loses? The owner? They'll replicate another one. The seller? Maybe, but please, a little common sense here: the person stole the car beause they didn't want to pay for it. It's digital, there is no materials cost lost by the 'creator' (Now, the buyer is producing the vehicle in his replicator - some energy is lost), just a potential loss of another copy that could have been purchased - which costs zero to produce above what has already been spent on creation.
Sure, it's easy to copy music. What's being stolen? The same thing that's played on the radio? So I press record on my PC, and record the radio. Have I stolen? Or maybe I bought the CD version of a tape I already bought. Now who's stolen (Some think the RIAA)? I already own the content, it was placed on a CD for me as a service..(See where we're going?)
All the hubub about piracy is mostly because the industry is seeing an end of the line of upgrades (8-track -> record -> tape -> CD). With digital content, they're revenue is fixed. No longer can they get revenue for the same material (original cost) over 30 years, reselling it in different formats. They will need to adjust to the new SERVICE industry that has been coming for YEARS, or someone else will take their place.
If I could see the trend from production to service industry coming before I hit High School (I'm 28 now), and big business did not, that's pretty pitiful. I'd be willing to bet they just didn't WANT to see it coming.
We're "Losing" jobs over this supposed "piracy" as much as we've lost jobs over automation in manufacturing. Remember when those robots were going to put all us humans out of work?
Even in this 'recession', and those pesky robots building our cars, unemployment has not reached critical mass.
Re:Stealing the invisible (Score:3, Interesting)
In either case, I don't have the means to pay for the program. I could go without having the program on my own machine. I could pirate, which in other hypothetical situations might mean the difference between finishing and not finishing the work. If I pirate, you say the company is losing money. I say the money was never headed in it's direction anyway. It "lost" money it never had any claim on.
I believe these two things: people buy good software, and pirates grow to be consumers. Piracy has the potential to be harmless, and it has been in most cases that I've seen. Don't knock the 19 year old college student that pirates a copy of Word. Go for the computer consultant installing free copies of Office XP on every machine that comes through his door.
Re:Stealing the invisible (Score:3, Interesting)
Second quote: you are ultimately destroying jobs
So, in this future intangible economy, exactly what are the truckers, cashiers, store owners and warehousmen going to be doing?
The fact is that economic models change. Business that don't change their business models to adapt to changing economic models will go out of business.
If the typewriter industry had the lobbying clout of the entertainment industry, general purpose wordprocessors for computers would not exist, and printers would have a surtax of $1 per DPI capability, adding $600 to the cost of a 600 DPI printer.
It's time for the entertainment industry to change their model or go out of business like the typewriter industry.
Pay the artists a cut (Score:3, Insightful)
IIRC, a CD costing $18 at a retail store ends up putting about $2 in the pocket of the artist. I'd happily give $2 directly to an artist for a copy of their disc. The other $16 is to cover overhead of distribution, marketing, etc. Well, the marketing is being done via WOM (or via ads which I'd already seen, causing interest in the music) and the distribution is being handled by the CD copier itself. I can do without the packaging, and the arist gets their $2 from the CD copying machine company.
If I'm copying a CD of my vacation pics, it's $5 to copy. If it's the latest Tom Petty or whatever, it's $7. Works for me.
Private Copying is legal in Canada (Score:2)
For more information: Articlde 80 of the Copyright Act of Canada [cb-cda.gc.ca]
I don't like the analogy (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't like it because:
- If you photocopy a whole book it takes a lot longer than the 9 minutes it takes for a cd.
- If you photocopy a book, you don't get a near perfect copy, whereas if you copy a cd you do.
What does worry me is that the people in the article might just be right, this could harm the music industry. If anyone on the street can make a near perfect exact copy of any cd then what is the incentive for most people to buy it in the first place? People don't go out a photocopy books because the methods that you use to copy it are so tedious and time consuming that it rapidly becomes a waste of time and money. This is different, you stick the cd in and wait 9 minutes, this is substantially easier than copying a book.Many people who buy a copy of something they have on pirate do it either to support the artist or because their copy quality is rubbish. I'm willing to bet that the majority of people would even both to cough up would because of the latter and with this, there is no need to do that since the quality is already perfect.
Of course the industry shouldn't charge such exhorbitant prices for stuff. You think you're hard done by in the US? Take the price in USD and that is what it is in UKP, in other words, our CD's are 1.5 times more that yours!
Take a look at the Amiga. Ignoring Commodores own inabilities, the software market was utterly obliterated by the ease it was to pick up copies of anything released. It just because totally un-economical to write and sell anything for it.
Re:I don't like the analogy (Score:2)
If you photocopy a book, you don't get a near perfect copy, whereas if you copy a cd you do.
This does, to any logical person, not matter a wit. Either the act is legal or it is not, why try and confuse the subject with this muddy it-changes-the-feeling-of-the-act-and-result.
Are you proposing Information Would be Free if it lasts longer than %arbitrary_time% to propagate and the result is sub-optimal by %this_much%?
Do you work for the RIAA? I cant see any-other reason to foist these non-sequitur arguments... outside of irrelevant FUD/propaganda to "change the subject" in a public debate.
Re:I don't like the analogy (Score:2)
I'm not saying that copying a book and CD are any less different. What I am saying is that using them both as an analogy is slightly incorrect because of their relative complexity in going about it. Using something which is just as easy to make a near perfect copy which is currently available in the streets for people to use would be a better analogy.
From the article, you can now go into a shop cough up $9 (plus $2 for the CD) and in less than 10 minutes have a near perfect copy of your CD minus a cover case.
Now, you try and do the same with a book at, say, your local copier shop and you'll find the results are substantially different. Granted, if you have access to a profesional copying system then the results are better, but at the end of the day the result is much more inferior and time consuming.
This is why, at the time of writing, software piracy is more prevelant than, say, DVD piracy.
What I am pointing out is that one of the most important factors in piracy is ease of copying. If it takes a long time to do and produces an inferior copy then people are less likely to do it. If, however, it costs very little and produces a very high quality result, then there is greater advantage.
Do you work for the RIAA? I cant see any-other reason to foist these non-sequitur arguments... outside of irrelevant FUD/propaganda to "change the subject" in a public debate.
Had you read my posting you would have realised that I'm in the UK where we don't have the RIAA. But of course you were too busy screaming the typical "FUD" to someones comment that you didn't quite understand.
Re:I don't like the analogy (Score:2)
You know... comments like these get me thinking that people haven't seen what an industrial copier can do. You do realize that they make 120+ ppm copiers with book scanners attached to them right? (though unbinding the book is better.)
Not only that, but some of these photocopiers have document binders attached to them and they will fold, stitch and trim your finished work.
I hope you also realize that since the bulk of the time is spent scanning, the second copy you decide to make doesn't take nearly as long.
Actually, current photocopier technology is a bit beyond that office copier you use. Color is a bit harder and more expensive, but your average book doesn't typically have much color.
Say you are student and instead of spending $125 on a book, you decide to borrow one from someone and get it copied. At 800 pages, you are looking at roughly 10 minutes (with binding.) Your total costs (assuming you can use the high-end copier at-cost, ie. no kinkos) is in the $30 range.
The end result is similar to that of a copied CD. No cover art, slightly lower quality medium and one hell of a cost savings.
So the question becomes, why doesn't everyone do it?
First, it's somewhat hard to find Xerox 8900 series copiers (or equivilent) that can be used without questions by the attendant, though certainly not impossible. Most copy shops will copy whatever you ask them to using their industrial copiers instead of those dinky self-serve ones. I'm not particularly sure of the legality of making a 'backup copy' of a book, but the argument could be made in the face of a head strong attendant.
People like having the real physical medium and the average person has no problem paying for someone they feel is worth the money.
There is also the resale value to think about... copied goods being rather shady aren't an asset to be sold off at a later time.
All in all, the photocopy analogy is pretty accurate. The real difference is what you can do at home easily. While there are book scanner adapters, it takes quite a bit loner to print and then you have to bind it yourself, but the savings involved is substanially higher than what you get by copying CDs.
slightly OT (Score:5, Interesting)
What does this mean? (first see this faq [neil.eton.ca]) You can take your friend's CD and burn yourself a copy - and its legal. This is because Canadians pay a levy on CDRs which 'compensate' producers (et al). I dont agree that this is the best tactic, but it is a powerful one. If people were informed of this fact, and groups actively promoted this, you could eliminate the present distribution scheme in Canada (retailers/distributors/labels). The Library would be all that Canadians needed to have copies of all the music they wanted.
Now, why is this going OT? I would like to know, does anyone have links or Info to make a Linux based, CDR 'copy machine'? I would like to organize a 'Copy Your Friends CDs Party" at a library or some such (near the Uni in town would be good), but would like to be able to copy many-many volumes of CDs.
I also have thought about make such a device available on loan to local Libraries in order to 'promote' and 'encourage' the practice.
Can anyone provide a info to do such a thing? What would be really nice is if the device could be operated without a monitor - just insert discs and close the trays...
self-fulfilling prophecy (Score:4, Interesting)
Even if it *was* $6 more expensive to produce a CD then, *now* CDs are practically free (just look at how many AOL wastes). So why hasn't the cost of CD music come down? Because the music industry can get it. Piracy was far less an issue when costs were *half* their cost now.
My point? If CDs were $8 or $9, people would snatch them up and not bother to pirate them - after all, the amount of *effort* you need to put forth just to find stuff, download it, burn it, etc, isn't worthwhile. But, when CDs are now approaching $18+ at local stores - well, it doesn't take a genius to realize that it's *easy* to recoup your initial hardware "investment" (cost).
FWIW, I own about 150 albums and another 150 CDs. And yet I really haven't bought any CDs in probably 2 years. Why? Cost, and the level of crap which is being put out now (which is probably more a function of me being 25 and having already found a style of music 4 or 5 years ago which I like - which is now disappearing).
Re:self-fulfilling prophecy (Score:2)
Crap-rock?
No...
Wuss-rock?
That's it!
This is the way it should be (Score:2)
This is the way it should be. RIAA should learn how to avoid copying without changing laws, or even excluding technologies or breaking any copyright. If they try to add value to their products I'm sure that many will avoid copying.
I'll say it again, RIAA/MPAA must learn to adapt themselves to new upcoming technologies. When a robot replaces a worker there are no laws that avoid this, the worker must adapt himself, by doing a new job, or by doing it better then the robot.
No association should overcome the democracy or the liberty, let's avoid this kind of thing.
This thing better have some weight to it! (Score:2, Funny)
Well, depending on what part of the contry (USA) you put this thing in, I can see a couple of red-necks loading this baby on the back of their pickup and driving off with it (cough West Virginia cough). If people have tried to rip off ATM's, soda machines, and newspaper dispensers, what makes you think they wouldn't go after this thing? I really hope they load the base of this puppy with some lead or cement.
Great! (Score:2)
Hmph (Score:2)
Nope - no bias in this article, that's for sure.
News flash: Photocopy machines installed worldwide make the illegal copying of the latest books and sheet music - which costs artists millions of dollars - as easy as buying a loaf of bread.
"These things are baaaad", said local idiot Glenn B. Aaker. "I couldn't imagine anything more potentially devastating for my web site [goatse.cx] than people copying pictures of myself and my farm animals. Those pictures are copyrighted, damnit, and they cost me a lot of, uh, money, to make."
Mr. Aaker said his goats would not take this lying down, but rather, standing up. "Hell no", he said. "We're not putting up with this. Besides, I get more pleasure out of it (fending these criminals off) when they're standing up."
Convenience store owner John Tsavrou said the photocopy machines were popular among strange looking people. "If people ask, we tell them it is sick and wrong to copy pictures of Mr. Aaker copulating with his goats and there are warnings on the machines - but what they copy is up to them," he said.
A spokesman from Xerox had no comment, although he did shoot milk out of his nose in a fit of hysterical laughter when told his machines were driving down Mr. Aaker's profits.
Re:Books too (Score:3)
Re:Breaking News "Photo-copier" debuts. (Score:2)
While I personally would never be inclined to waste my time making a copy of an entire book, there are people who do.
Especially on college campus where books sometimes cost US$100+. A student will buy a copy of the book and then his friends and their friends friends will make copies of the book. Copy services are often offered at a discount and it only takes extra time to make the first copy; you can make subsequent copies of the copies really fast. And at $100+ for the book and discounted on-campus copy services it is not hard to believe that you'd actually save money.
Re:Rights (Score:2)
But if the book is out of print, it is the only recourse you have left. I have had this PITA lots of times in Engineering. The teachers just loved to select unfindable textbooks. Not nice.
Re:This is morally reprehensible! (Score:2)
I suppose it's also morally reprehensible to have coin-operated soda machines in today's society, when everyone should have the technology of a refrigerator at home, and can chill and serve their own sodas!
All coin-op devices are there for one of two reasons. 1. convenience, and 2. entertainment value. If you decide it's more convenient (financially convenient, even!) to use a coin-op based service than to invest in your own system at home, so what? That should be a valid choice.