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Handhelds Hardware

Tiny Linux PDA: Filewalker 140

Posted by michael from the doubles-as-grip-exerciser dept.
senseimoron writes: "Check out the Filewalker, a new Linux-based handheld, with a very unique (one-handed) means of inputting characters. It is too difficult to explain, just checkout the site. I'd be interested to see how well the interface works." The English link may be more useful. From the price listed on the site, it would sell for US$560.
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Tiny Linux PDA: Filewalker More

Tiny Linux PDA: Filewalker

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  • hmmm.... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by fcrick ( 465682 )
    Seems like my thumb would fall off in a week if I had to turn a wheel for every character I typed. Does this input method have any advantages other than it being one-handed?
    • Well, I don't know you can't really tell from the pictures, but it might be that you just push up and down buttons like a joystick. I think turning a wheel for each letter would probably get old quick.

    • Re:hmmm.... (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Snard ( 61584 )
      From the pictures on their site, the input method reminds me of several bits in the 'movie' "A Brief History of Time", where they showed the system used by Stephen Hawking for entering text or "talking". His system doesn't use a thumbwheel, the highlight bar moves over the row or column while he holds down a lever. Anyway, this method is certainly slow, but I recall that he and his staff researched various methods, and this was the quickest they could come up with, at least at that time.
      • For Hawking's voice simulator, he can compose sentances and paragraphs and keep them in "ram" to say later. To compose sentances, words are broken up into catagories (and I assume, subcatagories) and he searches through them, then selects the word. If the word isn't listed, he can select letters to form it. I believe his composition speed was comparable to a slow typiest, which while much slower than speech, is pretty good.

  • price (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ???
    no way, that's more than the zaurus
    which has a faster cpu ,
    a real kbd
    ans a nice color display.
    etc.

  • Hmm... (Score:1, Interesting)

    by PetzoldC ( 554020 )
    I know i will get modded down for this....

    but does linux really belong in the PDA market?

    PalmOS and WindowsCE are already very established, and people trust/use them. Also, these OSes were MADE for PDAs, instead of being ported.

    Is it the fact that it is open source, although windows ce is already open source?

    I know you can run more applications with linux on the pda, but how many applications do you actually need for your pda that are not availible for windows ce and palmos?

    I am sure that hackers will enjoy it, but is there really a market for linux pdas?
    • Redundant? whatever....

      anyways, i forgot to mention the fact that filters have to be created for computer connectivity; filters that most people will not want to have to use.
    • I would have to say yes.

      if you look at some of the software coming from the handhelds.org [handhelds.org] people, for example.
      There are applications such as Storm - A complete PIM app [handhelds.org] being developed at an incredable rate, and offer loads of functionality.

      I can do everything with linux on my ipaq (probably more in my opinion) than with windows CE and Palm OS.

      I can manage email, contacts, surf the web via my cellphone, listen to mp3s, play doom even.

      Also, given the fact that there are a lot of linux geeks out there with PDAs, there is also a lot of people [handhelds.org] who wouldn't mind running there favourite OS on their handheld.

      Sales of the new Sharp Zaurus should give us an indication as to how well linux fairs with normal businessmen and the like.

    • WinCE is not open source (Score:4, Informative)

      by autopr0n ( 534291 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @06:50AM (#2905914) Homepage Journal
      You can download and view the source to WinCE, but you can't legaly do anything with it.

      But anyway, that question is kind of stupid. I mean you could have asked the same thing about linux on the desktop a couple of years ago, I mean we had macOS and windows and Unix for people to use.

      And I think that the really important thing to remember here is that, for the most part, PDAs are toys. Even the loweliest, most out of date used Palm could do just about anything you really needed organizer wise. People buy these things because they're fun. Sure, they might not admit it, but you really don't need a PC you can fit in your pocket that can play MP3s and Divx movies. People want those things because it's fun.

      And Linux is fun for some people. It's also cheaper then licensing WinCE or Palm (and it gets you free play on slashdot :P). I mean the whole point of a PDA is to have something 'cool' really, and for some people linux does make it cooler. If people are willing to buy these things, why not use Linux?

      (Btw, I just hate people who always have to ask 'do we really need this' I mean, do we really need anything do we need video game systems, or fast cars or DVD players?)
      • Point taken, but my question was whether or not there is a market for linux pdas...i meant "one" instead of "you."

        To me, it simply does not seem profitable.
      • PDAs are toys.

        That's what they were saying about PCs 20 years ago.

        Even the loweliest, most out of date used Palm could do just about anything you really needed organizer wise.

        Funny, I just counted it up, and I have over a meg of productivity applications and data that I use every day. Hardly something the lowliest Palm could handle.

        Just because some people use Palms as toys doesn't mean they're just toys. I don't really use mine as a toy. I use it for productivity.

        People may not need to play MP3s and Divx movies, but it's certainly plausible that somebody could one day use similar technology to turn their PDA into a Dick Tracy-like hand held videoconference machine. More likely, they'll find some other use that neither one of us has thought of. In the meantime, people who use the PDA for productivity can listen to music as a value-add.

        Early adopters are what they are because they think the technology is fun. Just because the technology is just starting to mature beyond that stage doesn't mean there are no serious applications for PDAs.

    • Does PocketPC belong in PDA's? After all, Palm OS was very established in the PDA-market and people trusted it.

    • Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)

      by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
      Comment removed based on user account deletion

    • Re:Hmm... (Score:4, Insightful)

      by glwtta ( 532858 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @07:52AM (#2905999) Homepage
      PalmOS and WindowsCE are already very established

      Oh good grief! Well, Windows is pretty well established on the desktop and some server markets - does that mean we Linux dorks should just go home and stop bugging people with our silly ideas?

      Handheld devices are becoming more and more powerful (I read that in a 2002 prediction list, so I think it's true), as such they will need to utilize "real" operating systems at some point (when they are roughly equvalent to todays desktops, lets say), WindowsCE is a nice intermediate step, as are the Linux variants for portable devices currently being used - it's just that the "evolution" path for Linux seems a bit easier than with the Windows paradigm; but what do I know.

      Oh, and I didn't know that WindowsCE was an entirely new codebase written from the ground up for portables and had nothing to do with WindowsOtherWise. (I don't think I have to mention that WindowsCE is about as Open Source - yes, with capital O and S - as my ass, from the Linux perspective of course)

    • I know i will get modded down for this....

      .... and you won't deserve any better...

      but does linux really belong in the PDA market?

      You tell me: Why is *VERY* new PDA-design based on Linux? I don't see any new companies putting out WinCE or PalmOS based designs, all choose Linux.

      If you start from scratch, Linux is the way to go.

      PalmOS and WindowsCE are already very established, and people trust/use them. Also, these OSes were MADE for PDAs, instead of being ported.

      WinCE was not made for PDAs in BillGates wet dreams it should have been good for all kinds of embedded applications.

      But it's correct, PalmOS and WinCE are established and for a company already producing WinCE or PalmOS - based PDAs, a switch might not be worth it.

      However, as I said, all companies entering the PDA-market are choosing Linux.

      Is it the fact that it is open source, although windows ce is already open source?

      You are funny.

      WinCE is not open-source, there are just some parts open (an uncompilable source is pretty useless) and it's not gratis. (Although MS has dropped the price in the last years)

      And on top of that both the partly-open-sourceness and the relatively cheapness can change anytime. (Hint: Probably as soon as you became dependent on it)

      I know you can run more applications with linux on the pda, but how many applications do you actually need for your pda that are not availible for windows ce and palmos?

      None. So?

      I am sure that hackers will enjoy it, but is there really a market for linux pdas?

      The market does not care about that. A Linux-PDA won't look any different than any other for a consumer.

      The developers care.

    • I've thought about this in the past, actually, and, to be honest, I feel that Linux is perhaps the best choice, at least in terms of development. I don't own a PDA, so I won't make any ridiculous claims like "Linux is easier to use on my PalmPilot!". However, from a developmental standpoint, I think Linux has to be a good choice -- you can take the source, and do what you please. You can essentially tailor it to be your 'own' custom-brew operating system, suited perfectly to your unique hardware, and yet you didn't have to write it from scratch.

      Also... With regard to applications... I could've sworn there's a PalmPilot emulator (copilot? xcopilot?) for Linux. Now, obviously, if you were to built a handheld running Linux, and have it run only that Palm emulator, that would be completely insane. But if you have a Linux-based PDA, and feel the need to use a Palm application... You, in theory, can.

      Another reason that I'd like a Linux-based PDA is that I'm familiar with Linux. IIRC, you can run BlackBox [themes.org] on an iPaq with Linux. You've essentially got a 'desktop' in your hand. I've played with a couple PDAs running Windows CE, and, even as a regular Windows user (not at home), I couldn't figure out how to use it. The interface really doesn't resemble Windows too much. If I actually owned a PDA, I'm sure it's somewhat sensible, and I could figure it out...

      All this said... I think the question you pose is based partially on opinion. Is a dump truck better than a Ferrari? You could make a strong argument either way... But ultimately, it really depends on what you need it for, and what your personal preference is. If you need to transport 12 tons of boulders out of your backyard... The dump truck is clearly better. But if you're looking for a car to drive around town with, the Ferrari might be better. But I've always seen any "Linux is always better" type things as like saying "The Ferrari is better. I don't care that you need to move your 12 tons of boulders. Use the Ferrari. It's faster."

    • Please see my comment on this:

      http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=25075&cid=2724 965 [slashdot.org]

      The gist of it is that Linux is suited to many different types of devices. Windows CE is not by any stretch of the imagination "Open Source". And it is definitely not Free Software.

      As another poster has mentioned what good is source that you can't even legally compile? The only purpose it serves is that if someone were to look at it for purposes of reimplementing parts of it correctly (e.g. for Wine) they'd get a big nasty fat lawsuit slapped on 'em by MS. No thanks. Couple this with the fact that you must sign up for an MS passport to get this stuff and thus they know who downloaded it you can rest assured that MS will most definitely go after anyone who releases rewrites of Windows code after having viewed this.

      I've looked at your user info page, trying to find anything actually indicating that you are in fact Charles Petzold. At least I suppose you don't hide the fact that you work for MS. And if you really want to know why people want to use Linux for everything then start using it. Start programming with it. From the sounds of your other comments you have played with Linux programming but you seem to fail to understand the fundamental differences in architecture. That works both ways. I am writing a program right now for work and am really pissed about all this overlapped IO crap. Why isn't there just a damn "select()" call? Why can't everything be a file descriptor? What is this WaitForMultipleObjects crap they have tried to pass of as select but can't even because for all intents and purposes you really /HAVE/ to go multithreaded in some cases because you can't just add something to your GUIs main loop such as "when data is available to read from the pipe, return a message and process as usual". Or maybe there is but I sure as hell haven't found a way.

      Anyway, enough ranting about the broken WinAPI for now. I really hope you find some time to actually use and program on a Linux system. You won't look back.

  • A bit expensive (Score:3, Interesting)

    by jeti ( 105266 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @06:14AM (#2905857)
    With 649,- EUR, I think it's a bit on the expensive
    side. Especially since I'm perfectly content with a
    paper address book.

    But if I can install my own sowftware easily, it
    could still be a neat toy.
  • I've heard about this type of input before. Anything other than a stylus and I'm happy. What I'm really waiting for is direct brain input.

    "Hello. I am your PDA. You can call me Wintermute."

  • Finally... (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Cynical_Dude ( 548704 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @06:23AM (#2905871)
    A revolutionary instead of evolutionary means of inputting data. Whether it works or not - this is a good thing.

    I have no doubts, that it will require a few days of toying around to get accustomed to, but since you have 3 characters at your disposal for every turn of the wheel, I think the wheel-spinning will not break your thumb off.

    Imagine for a moment that you have become proficient at "typing" in data in this way. You have the use of your second hand for other things like holding the phone, etc. when using this device.

    No one should bear any illusions that this thing will have any kind of mainstream success. It's obviously designed as a geek toy .

    Too bad I recently bought a m505 or else I'd give this thing a try. I'm not too fond of the palms graffiti either, on long texts I use the pop-up screen keyboard instead.

  • The jog dial + 3 buttons seems a fairly rapid method of text input but I'm not sure it will be convenient for things like pocket Quake.

    Also no mention is made whether the screen is touch sensitive which would be a very useful addition for web browsing which all handhelds should be capable of...

  • Does it sync to a Linux desktop? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Davoid ( 5734 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @06:43AM (#2905900) Journal
    I mean it is all very nice and all that they have Linux running a PDA but what use is it to me if it can only sync to a Windows desktop.

    All the Linux based PDAs seem to have the same problem... Windows desktop only. I can understand that it requires a Windows desktop for economic reasons. I already have a PalmVx that has several Linux desktop environments to choose from and they work fine.
    -DU-...etc...

  • Unique? (Score:1)

    by awx ( 169546 )
    ...with a very unique (one-handed) means of inputting characters...
    Hello? Haven't you guys ever heard of a Nokia 7110 [nokia.com]? There's even a Quicktime movie [nokia.com] showing how the 7110's NaviRoller works.

  • Re: (Score:1, Offtopic)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • I'll assume you've never learned a second language. If you had, you would know that learning the subtleties of another language can take a good decade or sometimes a lifetime. Considering it was a German writing the English translation, I'd give it an A+. Whether they should have hired professional translators as this is a business, is another topic.
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • There is something very wrong when an American is denied a job in the U.S. because he speaks English.

          No, it sounds to me like he wasn't hired because he didn't speak Chinese.

          Picture yourself entering the Chinese market. Wouldn't you look for locals who spoke English as well as Chinese?

          Obviously if that was the case they should have advertised that they were looking for bilingual individuals. This way they wasted your friend's time as well as their own, and they owe him an apology. On the other hand, maybe the translator they hired to write the ad screwed it up, and since they couldn't read the ad they didn't know.

    • P.S. This is not "off-topic". If it can't be discussed here, where can it be discussed?

      Maybe it's "very off-topic" then?

    • [trying to drag this ontopic while making an offtopic point]
      In one sense, *everything* is very unique; even two things "of the same kind" will differ to some small degree. Graffiti and whatever WinCE uses (Jot?), and Xerox unistrokes are all "unique", but all similar; yet unistrokes is "more unique" since it doesn't easily map to the printed characters each stroke represents. So get off your high horse, it makes *perfect* sense to talk about this being "very unique".

      Even more on topic: on the one hand, it's good when Linux proves itself in the embedded market. On the other hand, handhelds are *incredibly* UI driven relative to other platforms, and as far as I know those UIs tend to be propiertary one-offs. Only geeks will likely be in a position to appreciate the Linux-ness.

      • I would go as far as to say that the handheld UI market is saturated now, and that ANY new company trying to enter a PDA into the market not based on WinCE or PalmOS will be disappearing rather quickly. Then again, I'm no market analyst.

        I too have been admonished on occasion by our resident office grammarian who tells me that "unique" is a boolean affair. Perhaps the concept could better be expressed with some other words. This text entry system is very different. It's novel. Etc.

        Justin
      • Comment removed based on user account deletion
        • I am a published writer and experienced editor, so you can stop making a fool of yourself and let this drop. Or you can amuse me further by trying to come up with some explanation of why you believe that you are right.

          Like a lot of words in English, unique has more than one meaning. As well as "the only one of its kind", it can also mean "extraordinary". It is probably this meaning that was been used in the original article, and thus the "very" modifier was legitimate.

          The problem with a lot of these rules (such as "no modifiying an absolute") is they assume that a word has a fixed meaning. In the absence of a controlling authority for English words do change their meaning - look at the original meanings of awful, obnoxious, or nice for example.

          So, lets apply the only test that means anything - what message was communicated in this case: "A very unique (onehanded) method of inputting characters". This is a PDA we're talking about, and anyone with any knowledge knows that all PDAs have a unique method of inputting characters - for patent reasons if nothing else. However, as most also know, most of the methods have similarities. In this case the writer is saying to me that this PDA has a new input system that is quick distictive from the systems used in other PDAs.

          So the message was transmitted clearly. And for bonus points he managed to seriously annoy some language mavens.
          • Comment removed based on user account deletion
            • The word "unique" is unique. There is not some other word that means "one of a kind."

              Apart from "singular".

              For that reason, I will stick with the usage and definition of the word "unique" accepted by the vast majority of educated English speakers.

              Nonsense - look up a dictionary (Merriam-Webster for example) and you will find more than one meaning for unique, and one of them (in Webster's) is "unusual". Oh - and read the usage note.

              If you prefer to use the underwear-clad suspects on Cops as your guide to English grammer, there is nothing I can do about it.

              No - I'll stick with such illiterate yokels such as J.D. Salinger and the editors of dictionaries.

              Even when the meaning is as an absolute there is still a case for modifiers. Take "equal" for example - when used in the absolute sense things are either equal or they are not - the concept of "more equal than" seems absurd. Now read Animal Farm - "All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others." This gets across succinctly and powerfully the message. Modifiers with "unique" can be used in a similar way.

              BTW "grammer" is spelt "grammar". I wouldn't normally mention such a typo, but a) it's the second time you've made this error, b) you are supposed to be a experienced editor, and c) you are the one being picky about language.

              If that kind of thing makes you happy, I suggest that you shut off your computer and, instead of reading Slashdot, watch an episode of the Jenny Jones show.

              A bit tricky, as they don't broadcast that in my country.
        • English is arguably the world's best language: It has shamelessly borrowed from other languages as needed (or perhaps just wanted) and as a result it allows for an expressiveness and granularity of meaning simply not possible in other languages. English is enormously complex, but that complexity allows unmatched specificity in distinguishing shades of meaning, an attribute that turns out to be tremendously valuable in the real world.

          English is a lot like Unix/Linux in this respect - Thomas Scoville wrote an excellent paper a few years ago on the subject of why a love of English is almost a prerequisite for mastering Unix: Elements of Unix Style [meganet.net]. A love of English is perhaps one of the best predictors for aptitude in Unix-land. Those that can't (or don't) write well will never really develop fluency and the ablity to effortlessly "think in Unix" that marks the true masters.

          On the other hand, the same things that give English its strength have produced inconsistencies that vex, flummox, and perplex non-English speakers, especially in the realm of pronunciation. Try this one out - I'd bet most US college students can't get through it without being tripped up at least once or twice (actually, given the general illiteracy of the college grads I've talked with lately, I'm certain of it): English is tough stuff [brown.edu]. Perhaps I should make reading this part of my interview process. At least it would filter out those that think technical skills are the only thing required for success, and the others that fail to recognize that it's far easier to take a good communicator and teach them technical skills than the other way around...
  • ...with a very unique (one-handed) means of inputting characters. It is too difficult to explain, just checkout the site.

    If you can't explain an input device in the space of a Slashdot story, you're either a simpleton or the device is too complicated. In either case, I'm not interested. This Slashdot story writeup reminds me of a zillion business models that I read during the dot-com craze. "I can't explain it in just a paragraph, but it's going to be revolutionary, really. You have to see this." Whatever.

    Come on, /. editors, can't you at least say "you select characters using a jog wheel and three buttons"? How hard is that? And furthermore, it's not that far away from the method my Sony 300-CD changer uses to select letters. If you want to put in the title for a CD that doesn't have CD-Text on it, you use the jog wheel. Big deal.
  • Take that, Microsoft Bob! Looks like we might have Linux BOB [owlcave.net]

    [ahem]

    "Thru the darkness
    of Future Past
    the magician longs to see
    one chants out
    between two worlds
    File - walk with me."

    Sorry.

  • Get your useless 560 dollar palm today!

    For 560 dollars you think it would actually SAVE you time...
  • I have seen dozens of Linux-based PDAs come across my desk, and I have yet to see a single one of them actually "get it". These PDAs will not succeed just because they have Linux on them. There's some core, fundamental things missing, which will be required before these Linux-based PDAs can catch on:
    • First and foremost, these vendors need to concentrate on the existing PDA userbase, because most people who will buy a Linux-based PDA are going to be the users who have already owned a Palm, or an iPAQ. In order to do this, think DATA, not hardware or cool new features. If I move from my Palm m505 to a FiREWALKER, how do I get my data from Palm to FiREWALKER? This is CRITICAL.

      Without a good, clean data migration path, these devices will stagnate and orphan themselves off.

    • Providing a way to get data to the desktop is a good start, but.. a Windows desktop? Most users who would purchase a Linux-based PDA are going to either be existing PDA users, or existing Linux users. Where is the integration with the Linux desktop(s)?

    • What about a common data storage format, so I can integrate the data from the FiREWALKER with my Palm data? Perhaps I want to carry both. What about exchanging records? Beaming?

    • Where is the SDK? Without a nice solid, robust SDK, there's going to be no way to extend the device. Palm's dominance in the PDA space (now at 82% of PDA owners) is largely successful because of the millions of third-party applications available for the devices.

      Without a unified SDK for these devices, using a common data storage format or ruleset for conversion, these devices will just die off. Each one ends up being a one-off.

    • What about a common sync path? FiREWALKER to desktop, FiREWALKER to other PDA? FiREWALKER to other Linux PDA?

    If these companies are going to try to make a successful Linux-based PDA, they must fill and follow the 4 S's.

    1. SDK
    2. Storage
    3. Sync
    4. Share

    The hardware, however cool, is irrelevant unless I can get to my data, and get my data into the applications I need to use it with; desktop, other PDA, cell phone, whatever.

    I've dealing with PDA development and data/application integration and issues like this since PDAs first came out, and I know what's missing and what needs to be improved. These Linux PDA vendors are completely missing the point.

  • Faster to use button combinations (Score:3, Informative)

    by mgv ( 198488 ) <Nospam...01...slash2dot@@@veltman...org> on Saturday January 26, 2002 @07:20AM (#2905961) Homepage Journal
    Its actually alot faster to use button combinations rather than a roller wheel. You don't need alot of buttons to do that, either.

    Or, if you want a good but portable keyboard, use a one handed one:

    http://www.halfkeyboard.com/

    Either of these concepts would work much better in a PDA than a roller wheel - where you have multiple rolls then a press for each character. Unlike every other alternative (graffiti, keyboard, half keyboard) this one takes multiple actions per character, and you would have to look at the screen to know which character you were at because its state dependent.

    My 2 cents worth
  • I have a Nokia 8890 telephone, and it has the standard numeric keypad with "ABC", "DEF" combinations per key. I can press each key only once, and it figures out by the combination what word I want to type. It's not perfect, but it seems this "smart" technology should be standard for input into small devices. So basically with 10 keys I can type very quickly.
    • It's called the T9 keyboard I think. There was a PDA way back called the HP Avigo that used it. It was never very popular on that PDA, and eventually somebody wrote a pen-based input method for it. IMHO it's great for cellphones because of the infrequent need to input lots of text. On a PDA, I prefer either handwriting recognition or an add-on keyboard.

      The Gadgeteer did a review [the-gadgeteer.com] of a T9 product. Look at the table with their speed results.

  • Lefties? (Score:5, Interesting)

    by blkros ( 304521 ) <{moc.oohay} {ta} {sorklb}> on Saturday January 26, 2002 @07:31AM (#2905974)
    Do they make one for lefties? Or is it just like everything else in this right-hand centric world?

    • Re:Lefties? (Score:3, Funny)

      by glwtta ( 532858 )
      I'd say you have about as much of a chance to get any speed out of that thing as any right-handed person ;)
      • despite being almost ambidexterous (dominant left)... I believe these things should be designed for either handedness. Their are 5 people im my immediate family and 3 of them are left handed. Since we (lefties) are no longer seen as the creation of satan... there might be more of us around soonish....

        • Re:Lefties? (Score:4, Funny)

          by glwtta ( 532858 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @08:44AM (#2906074) Homepage
          That was a joke, but anyway, the sad truth is that there are few lefties, and companies like this probably cannot afford to create two versions of their product.

          Hell, how many left-handed mice and joysticks are out there?

          But there are good news [burgerking.com] for lefties as well.

          • Uh.... Please, please, pleeeeeeease tell me that Burger King link is a joke... I'm left-dominant ambi myself, but that's just ridiculous. It's something I'd expect to see on The Onion. *shudder*
          • I almost made a crack about left-handed mice, but I can't remember if Mickey is left or right handed...

            Actually mice can be changed for left handed use (even though I use mine right handed--point and click ain't brain surgery) as for joysticks if they didn't try to mold them for your hand, there wouldn't be any problem with those. Arcade games and Atari didn't care which hand you used, they had a straight stick with (maybe)a knob on it.
            • Arcade games and Atari didn't care which hand you used

              Well, the standard VCS and C64 switching joysticks sure did -- there was only the one "Fire" button, and that was oriented so that it fell under your left thumb as you moved the stick with your right hand.
    • Do they make one for lefties? Or is it just like everything else in this right-hand centric world?

      As a left-hander I can sympathise, but I suspect the answer is "No." That said, I still think that right-handers have it backwards with some devices - it makes more sense to me to use your dominant hand for typing, and your weaker hand for simple tasks like pushing a mouse around.

      You might be interested inThe Left Hand [thelefthand.com] website - they sell products designed for lefties. The left-handed keyboard [thelefthand.com] is bizarre, but the left-handed scissors [thelefthand.com] would be wonderful!

  • Visually dependet inputs are bad (Score:4, Insightful)

    by multiview ( 124831 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @07:37AM (#2905987)
    This input type depends on visual feedback. You have to choose the character among a list by scrolling throw it. A typical character selection would look like this:
    1. You look at the currently selected char.
    2. Is it your desired character?
    Yes: Press the selection key, think of the next character, and restart at 1.
    No: You estimate the alphabetical distance between the currently selected char and your desired. If it's "far", hit the scrollwheel fast. If it's "near", hit the scrollwheel gently. Start at 1.

    The problem is, you will always have to look at the display while you're searching, which makes the process dependent on visual feedback. Just think back to the times when you where new to QWERTY (or for those who can't remember, think of the times while trying DVORAK). You were looking at the keyboard searching for your key to press, ackwardly slowing your lexical progress.
    The revolution in typing speed has accoured that moment as you don't depend on the visual feedback any longer, freeing a lot of mental processing time for hand, finger, eye coordination.

    The scrollwheel is as slow as my mobile phone sms writing interface.

    • So you're telling me you can scratch Graffiti on your palm pilot while looking at / doing something else for more than 2 minutes before your stylus strays off of the scratchpad area? I seriously doubt that.

      • He never said anything about not looking at something for more than 2 mins. He just said that it relied on visual feedback. Which means you can't glance up to see what you might be copying down for a few seconds.

        With handwriting recognition, you don't have to be looking at the screen to make sure that you are entering it, you just have to glace at the sceen once to confim you entered it properly.

        It means you can act like a normal human, and glance at what you writing down, who your talking to, or make sure you aren't walking into a pole etc. while your jotting something down.

        Just because you can't use handwritting recognition like a keyboard, and not need to look at it ever. Dosen't mean visual feedback isn't important.

        Also, when I look at my Palm screen while wrtting. I look at the text that I'm writing, and not the graffiti pad. Which is similar to looking at the sceen while typing anyway.

        I managed to write the whole alphabet wothout looking, and only get 3 letters wrong, and that's mostly cause of the recognition software. With better software, and practice. I'm sure I could easly get to point where I don't even need to look at the Palm.

        • How do you know this scrollwheel doesnt have a tactile feedback for when you move one notch in the letter lineup? I know alot of knobbed devices that indicate when you turn up one notch with a subtile "click" feeling, including my car stereo. After practice, you could use such a knob/buttons without looking at the screen at all.

          • Most scrollwheels that I know of have infinite ends. IE. you can keep on rolling it, and never find the start or end. You would have to know where it was before you scroll since you can't just scroll to the beginning, since there is no begining. Also, every click is the same as the other, it would be very easy to overrun by one click an not notice. It has not uniqueness whatsoever. Letters, keyboards, and voice do.
    • If that scroll wheel clicks into place a little when you change positions, I could see 'touch-typing' with it. You'd just have to get used to the relative positions of the 'keys' via scroll wheel position. Not too terribly different from touch-typing on a keyboard, I would think.
      But then, we don't know what the thing feels like yet, so we can't really make that call.
    • Who developed this nifty system but dropped the ball at grouping commonly used letters together? Imagine being able to crank out most words without moving that wheel more than a couple detents left or right.

      Or is that patented too?

  • This wheel + buttons thing, while different, is obviously not gonna cut it. I can't stand those Palms chicken-scratch pads (I can type about 150 times faster than I can "write" on those - I don't even think I am exagerating) and you are not gonna lug a useable keyboard with you.

    What's left? Voice is the only thing that really comes to mind, but that has obvious limitations. The newer "natural handwriting" recognizers are a step up from the Palm things, but I for one would not be able to use one since even I can't read my handwriting (plus I write far too slowly anyway).

    So are we stuck until a way is figured out to stick in a 1394 port at the base of the neck? Any innovative suggestions?

    • > What's left? Voice is the only thing that really comes to mind, but that has obvious limitations

      What are the obvious limitations of speech input? For me this is not so obvious. Todays mobile CPUs are strong enough to run a speech recognition engine. You would still need a headset though (because of background noise). But, actually speech input is what we all want, isnt it? You could blow away all grafitti, keyboards and jog dials when it comes to input speed.
    • While Graffiti and other character recognition schemes (e.g. Jot) annoy the snot out of me for anything other than entering names and dates, I find the most usable, consistent, and fast, both in the long run and today as far as input into a PDA is still real handwriting recognition. We're talking about the Apple Newton MP2x00 or a WinCE device with ParaGraph's CalliGrapher installed. Having used both quite a bit, it's the only way to go. It's natural and quick to write both natural language texts and even code, depending on the language.

      I find that writing a language of BCPL-syntax lineage like C or NewtonScript is a pain in the ass to write in HWR. However, languages like Smalltalk and LISP (the languages luckily [for a number of reasons] I use the most often) work very well as translated from handwriting to text. Sometimes a opening paren is thought of as a C, but both the Newton and CalliGrapher have a tiny punctuation keyboard that works great for this. Writing in C or Perl may be a little harder, as both the syntax tends to be more silly, and the variables and function naming conventions often are very non-natural-language. (e.g., Scheme's string->number function, or Smalltalk's asNumber are easily recognized as composite words rather than something like atoi in C.)

      And yes, they keep up with messy handwriting. You should see mine. :-/ I just did an informal test on my iPAQ 3150, and I got around 45 minutes/min. I wrote for two minutes, and then counted the words, excluding half of the tiny words (a, it, is, I) and divided by two. Not bad, considering that it requires no training. That 45/min includes fixing mixing mistakes. My Newton is be a little bit slower at it, which can be attributed to a number of things.

      It's no wonder I can manage to take all of my class notes on a PDA with actual HWR, but you don't see people with Palm OS devices in a graduate level college course taking their notes. ;)

  • The Filewalker is definately interesting, but the text input method seems like it would be a pain. The biggest drawbacks are:

    • text entry will be slow because it is essentially a serial-access device not a random-access one like a keyboard
    • you have to be looking at the screen as you type, because you need to see which column of letters is in view.

    An interesting alternative would be a device like this that used a chording keyboard. These were pioneered by a British company called Microwriter who built a device called the Agenda back in the early '80s. This had a text entry system that uses five keys - different combinations ("chords") of keys generate different letters. It takes a while to learn the chords, but once you know them you can type one-handed, relatively rapidly and without having to look at the screen. Chording keyboards may also be less liable to cause RSI.

    For more information about chording keyboards, see this FAQ [tifaq.com]

  • This looks like another Right Handed biased product. I have a Kyocera Smart Fone, and being Palm dirived it is also Right Handed biased ...

    Well We left handers have jut been ignored one more time aka BVD underwear with the flap in the wrong direction
  • I own a Sony cell phone with one of these jog-wheels, and personally I see this as a great input method. You can easily go up to 8 clicks with an easy roll, so going from the (abc) to (pqr) is easy. I also own a Palm, and I still have to look at it while writing in grafity because it's so easy to mess up a character. So what we have here is a solution that only uses one hand, even if it no easier to input text. Any of you out there that drive/talk on the phone/smoke/use palm/drink coffee will be able to appreciate that!
  • Yawn. There have been quite a few ideas for easier handheld input, the one-handed keyboard [handykey.com] and left handed QWERTY keyboard [half-qwerty.com] being two examples for one-handed imput. There are many more. Will they ever (or this one) take off? Only if it is (1) easy to learn, or (2) there are huge advantages. I can't see either in this case. Graffiti succeeded, because it is (relatively) easy to learn. Cell phone users put up with their keypad, because this is the only viable option with today's cell phone sizes (except hauling more equipment around).

    If neither of the two criteria is given, the technology might still succeed - in a niche market. I can see this technology in some industrial environment, where the operator has only one hand available. But the mass market? Nah....

    • It's actually huge. Think crowded trains, like in Japan. I always wondered what the whole i-mode success was based on, until I went there last october. Thousands of people, stuck in a train for an hour or more, holding on with one hand. So what do you do? You play with your i-mode phone with your other hand. Thats why all the phone models there are long and thin, so you can operate the phone and text input with one hand. Even if it's slower than a keyboard, and the screen sucks it's better than looking at the dandruff on the person next to you.

  • Dyno Label Maker (Score:3, Funny)

    by SimHacker ( 180785 ) on Saturday January 26, 2002 @10:31AM (#2906348) Homepage Journal
    Almost as revolutionary as the amazing Dyno Label Maker [acme.com]...

    -Don

  • This is remindes me of the Tab project at Xerox PARC: http://www.parc.xerox.com/csl/members/want/papers/ parctab-pcs-dec95.pdf . The Tab has a series of keys down the side for input.

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