Palm Announces Separated Software Operations 187
Eharley writes: "'Palm on Monday announced it has completed the split of its operating system division from the rest of the company. The software unit will now report separately on the financial performance of its licensing business, and could eventually be spun off or sold by Palm.'
Yahoo is carrying the story here. Considering that their market share in PDA devices has been slipping, is this a move that will signal the end of the Palm hardware line or organizers?"
Good idea. (Score:2)
an old koan (Score:2, Funny)
But they refused to license BeOS (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:But they refused to license BeOS (Score:2, Interesting)
However, given their previous screw-ups, who knows. Maybe Apple should revive the Newton....
Re:But they refused to license BeOS (Score:2)
You might say that is a bogus argument, but would they make enough money out of a licensed but unsupported BeOS to afford the licensing lawyers? I dunno. Pity though.
Re:But they refused to license BeOS (Score:2)
yes, they're forming a licensing arm. yes, they've refused to license BeOS. gee, i wonder what their licensing arm could possibly be doing. licensing PalmOS, maybe? y'know, that "other" OS they've got? the one that's actually gotten lots of industry acceptance, wide usage, and made alot of money? that one? they don't want to dilute both their efforts and the market share of PalmOS by essentially having to compete with themselves. answering the question "which one should i buy?" is alot of time they don't want to worry about.
Interesting... (Score:4, Troll)
It's interesting that they split the software division off. Microsoft is a well established software giant and having a company that only does software is not such a lucrative position with MS in the mix. Unless there's some contract that says Palm hardware has to use Palm software, I wouldn't be suprised if we eventually saw Palms running Windows CE and never saw Palm software again. Don't get me wrong, I'm in no way saying MS is better, I'm just pointing out the fact that they are bullies and they will do anything to destroy another software maker.
Well.. (Score:4, Insightful)
It may make very solid financial sence for palm to take steps to ensure their hardware and software sections are financially and legally separated. Maybe the COULD sell more palm devices if they used other software.. and maybe they could make more on software if they weren't stuck with a single platform.
This way.. if one fails, the other can go on.
Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Insightful)
At the end of the day, more than 80% of handhelds sold run Palm OS.
If want a handful of Slashdot nerds to use your software, you write it for some iPaq running Linux.
If you want a few gadget freaks to use your software, you write it for Wince/Pocket PC.
If you want your aunt and your grandma and the whole rest of the world to use your software, you write it for Palm OS.
In the handheld market, MS is nothing but fancy marketing. This is why hardware companies license Palm OS.
Re:Interesting... (Score:4, Interesting)
This is no longer mid 2000. At the start of 2001 WinCE had quickly grown from 7% to 10% marketshare. Currently PalmOS devices account for around 70% market share. You can verify this by checking the PDFs of companies that recommend buying options on PDA stocks. WinCE devices are around 26% with the rest taken up by the extremely small players.
7% December/00 to 26% January/02. That is quite a shift isn't it?
Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Interesting)
Are you counting dollars spent or units sold? The typical Wince box costs *bunches* more. And what matters to a developer is the size of the existing user base. Considering what a 900-lb marketing gorilla MS is, I think hanging on to market share the way PalmOS has is a remarkable success.
And I think PalmOS is going to be very happy running in future cellphones. I don't think we're gonna see Wince running on Palm iron anytime soon.
Huh... (Score:1)
Re:Interesting... (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, when I go to the store for "Kleenex" and "Ketchup", I come home with the generic store brand stuff.
"Palm" is a good name, but I can see where it could come to refer to any little handheld computing device ...
Re:Interesting... (Score:2)
I guess Xerox must be doing real well... oh, wait... Maybe not.
I don't think so (Score:1, Redundant)
What I see happening is Palm beginning to sell their OS to other handhelds to try and steal some of the market away from Microsoft Windows CE (because, as all Slashdotters know, M$ == evil). By splitting the two companies, Palm OS can now be viably marketed to other platforms. Before, it was just a single company with a lot of proprietary knowledge, but once they do this split, they can start to open-source it (in a manner of speaking).
It will certainly be interesting to see where this goes, because if Palm does begin to sell their OS separately, then they'll have money for development. If they have money for development, then we'll see some great enhancements to the Palm OS, and I for one will welcome the change... just so long as they keep supporting my Palm IIIx :-)
Re:I don't think so (Score:3, Insightful)
separately"? Haven't you ever heard of
Handspring [handspring.com]?
Re:I don't think so (Score:1)
Re:I don't think so (Score:1)
Dear Moderator (OT) (Score:1)
too. Everyone knows about Handspring.
I think it's silly that if one posts something
halfway decent early in the discussion, one's
basically guaranteed to get modded up by two or
three points.
I even got accused of being a karma whore one time
because of this.
Re:I don't think so (Score:2, Insightful)
And what are the great enhancements that should be added to the Palm OS? If Windows CE has some feature, it is called bloated PC legacy crap. If Palm OS adds a feature, it is considered an elegant, fundamanetal feature of pocket organizers.
Re:I don't think so (Score:1)
Two points:
Palm was spun off from 3Com over a year or so ago. It is a completely separate company.
Even if they were still the same company, I doubt the quality of the 3C905B NIC would have any impact on Palm sales.
Re:I don't think so (Score:1)
Re:I don't think so (Score:1)
Or do they just have their own tracking stock? [yahoo.com]
No, this [nwfusion.com] leads me to beleive they are totally separate now.
3Com's revenues don't benefit Palm much, I would guess.
Re:I don't think so (Score:1)
Remember, please, that 3Com is also in the midst of change, as they refocus their strategy on core business products and services. They're slowly letting go of the home market, which Linksys has been steadily eating up. 3Com, along with Intel and many other companies, spent a lot of cash on the "home peripheral" market in the mid/late 90s, and are now discovering that the market isn't as profitable as they had hoped. Both Intel and 3Com have recently disbanded their consumer devices divisions. I've also heard that 3Com is planning to eliminate several thousand jobs by the end of this year.
Palm is smart to get rid of its software developers -- and really, that's what this announcement is foreshadowing -- and focusing on hardware. Palm is in trouble because PocketPCs blow them away and are now fairly inexpensive. Sure, Palms are VERY cheap, but PDAs are mainly used by businesspeople who use them as both status symbols AND useful tools. iPaqs are now "in" among IT execs. Palm is all but finished in the PDA market, but are gaining new life in the combination PDA/phone market. Palm will provide specialized B2B hardware services to Samsung, Nokia, et al.
But even then, Palm won't be a viable company for more than five years. Before 2004, Palm will likely be disbanded and their employees, who by then are much more focused on networked PIM/comms hardware, will be absorbed by 3Com.
</seriously>
Re:I don't think so (Score:3)
Well, technically, the OS and the device have already been separated a little bit. I can think of two different companies that use the PalmOS. Handspring and Symbol both use the PalmOS on their devices, and both of them have their own version of the operating system in order to support some of their added features. However, the strict PalmOS doesn't have these features integrated, so in order to get them you have to buy those devices.
Thus, what you have some is some forked versions of the same operating system (sound familiar?). With the Operating System division separated from the device division, it seems to me as if there is a greater chance for those features developed on other platforms to be integrated into the main OS.
Then, instead of having 3 separate versions of the OS implemented different features. You would have one version of the OS, implementing the whole featureset. Palm can then license out the whole OS to many different companies who have their own personal needs, and the developers for each of these different platforms will have one OS to develop for rather than 3 fragmented versions of the OS.
Hence, Palm is making a bigger play into the OS buisiness than they did before. By doing this, they are not only reaching out to customers to license from them (which they already have), they are reaching out to developers who now only have to track one line of the Operating System rather than trying to merge 3 separate Operating Systems which are almost but not completely unlike each other.
Licensing = Internal Competition (Score:4, Informative)
Makes total sense when they're now licensing their OS to several different hardware manufacturers. Think about it. Their hardware team is in direct competition with their own software sales team.
Several companies are in this unique situation but Palm must have realised the benefits of splitting themselves up. Kind of like 3Com splitting off Palm in the first place.
Oh Well. 2002-01-21 01:30:45 Splitting Palm (articles,news) (rejected)
Good move on their part. (Score:5, Insightful)
Frankly, I think that console mfrs should do the same thing. Sony and Nintendo should license their console OS's to anyone who wants to build the boxes (imagine the variety we'd see!).
Re:Good move on their part. (Score:2)
Although I heard that the only reason that they are letting Panasonic build them at all is because of the fact that Panasonic is making all the mini-DVD drives for the GC in the first place.
Re:Good move on their part. (Score:3, Interesting)
Or imagine NTT DoCoMo i-Mode cellphones with the Palm OS interface; in short, this could lead to widespread acceptance of the Palm OS on cellphones worldwide.
Re:Good move on their part. (Score:2)
Thank god for standards on the consoles
Palm still may lose out (Score:2, Redundant)
The reason they are doing this may be because their market has become saturated. As the Yahoo! article mentioned, "demand for organizers has ebbed," and "unlike Microsoft, Palm does not have a multibillion-dollar product like Windows to fall back on." So it looks like this move is Palm's way of trying to ensure their survival as they do business against Microsoft.
Good news... (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Good news... (Score:1)
I've owned both the Clie and the iPaq, and have to admit the iPaq is just too damn sexy, AND powerful to even be compared to the Clie. The Clie ended up being a toss-down to the girlfriend while I enjoy the benefits of the iPaq.
I really don't understand your complaint about the memory requirements with the relatively cheap prices on memory right now. (and considering your palm is permanently limited to the 2-8MBs it comes with out of the box, doesn't it just scream "640k ought to be enough for everybody" days?
I think the Palm's days are numbered... With the advent of Linux being used as an embedded OS for handhelds, and with Java support, who is going to need/want PalmOS? Sure, it was good for a time, but it hasn't done anything to make its own niche. If you want lots of features, use WinCE. If you want light-weight, go with a Linux machine.
Re:Good news... (Score:1)
The best part is that all of this memory is available for data and applications. On Windows CE, you need to allocate it between application RAM and data RAM. You couldn't load 32MB of documents onto a 32MB WinCE device if you tried -- maybe half of them. Palm OS's small footprint means much more storage for the user.
Re:Good news... (Score:2)
I could see using a 3870 as a laptop replacement with an 802.11 card. As a PDA with WinCE, its calendar sucks compared to DateBk4, it doesn't have travel management software like TravelTracker, the lack of something like MidCapsHack on the block recognizer makes it somewhat less useful, things run super-slow, and there's no free SSH client. Oh yeah, and the dev environment is a pain in the tush.
The Linux support for the 3870 is coming slowly, but it's not going to replace my datebook. There isn't a decent calendaring program yet for iPaq linux, and that's a necessary prerequisite to being a PDA. Not to mention the total lack of an address book. And don't get me started on power management issues...
Obviously, there's a reason I have an iPaq, but it sure as heck isn't because I think it's a PDA. If I lost my Vx, I'd get a PalmOS box, even though switching over to the iPaq would be free.
Good for you if you've found a way to carry the brick of a PDA that the iPaq is without having it drag your pants off. I'm sticking with my Palm for the apps, speed, battery life, size, and weight.
Re:Good news... (Score:2)
Just to let you rest assured, I am familiar with both platforms. My mother, over the holidays, won a Journada in a raffle ($2 for a Journada ain't a bad price), but the interface is sad, bulky and overredundant. She, as a veteran Windows user, has yet to find the Start menu on her own, and it took me a good five minutes. I actually had to look at the manual, which is the first time I've had to look at a manual, other than in detailed reference, in years.
The bad habits MS perpetuates on the desktop continue to find their way into WinCE. It disappoints me that people won't take Gates & crew to task for foisting useless stuff upon the public...
Re:Good news... (Score:1)
Ok, "otherwise". In what way is the Clie superior?
WinCE is a bloated, silly way of navigating a palmtop machine.
In what way? Other than "Microsoft made it".
I, personally, don't want to bring my MP3 player to meetings nor do I want to bring my organizer when I go for a walk.
Why not, if they are the same machine, the different functionality is hidden and one function does not interfere at all with the other? Are you really that hindered?
Re:Good news... (Score:1)
Palm has learned from Apple's mistakes? Say what? Seems Palm is reinventing Apple's mistakes instead. Apple's foray into separating their hardware and software, the licensing of the OS to other hardware vendors was a dismal failure. Only after Apple pulled in the licensing reins, and focused on design and tight integration for their own products did they become a player again. Palm was very innovative with the Palm V and the PalmOS has been great in general. But the hardware has started to lag, and they're relying on licensees to push the platform forward. Just like the Macintosh platform in the early-mid nineties. The m500 series is just a re-hash of the V now. They've only come out with evolutionary changes.
I actually agree that splitting the OS and the hardware is probably a good idea in Palm's case. Comparing Palm to Apple in terms of a hardware/software licensing split might not be the best thing to do if you're trying to cast it in a favorable light. :)
Re:Good news... (Score:1)
Well, first of all. I'm not supporting PocketPC (too big, not quite there yet).
But I'd want to bring an MP3 player to a meeting, and I always carry an orginiser when I go for a walk. Otherwise, it kinda defeats the perpous of having a PDA in the first place IMHO. If I taking my wallet and keys, my Vx comes with me to.
Also, I don't see why everyone is so against multimedia on a PDA. It doesn't have to make the OS or GUI bloated in anyway at all. The only thing that's holding it back is the size of the devices, and battery life etc....But this is the technology industry, so we all know things will get better.
Re:Good news... (Score:2)
I say this because Palm is going to be launching their 5.0 OS in the first week in February, but despite the addition of BeOS, they're not going to be adding multimedia stuff and instead are concentrating on wireless connectivity and the ARM processor. They've prioritized, and personally, I agree with their priorities.
Just like Handspring's Treo, Palm is thinking about betting the farm on connected devices. Phones, PDAs with WiFi, etc. They'll have to have tremendous battery life and be very secure, etc. but that's one thing that Microsoft doesn't have, so at least this plain is wide open.
I submitted some "research" I did about this to Slashdot a few days ago but it got turned down, you can read it here [russellbeattie.com].
-Russ
Re:Good news... (Score:2)
The last time Palm did anything interesting or relevant was the V series.
Hey, I love them anyway. I have a III and it keeps on truckin' along.
On the one hand, I am very pleased that my investment in the III has paid off -- it continues to be supported and it works well.
On the other hand I am astounded than Palm has done, relatively speaking, jack squat to advance their product line. OK, color, check. Removable memory, check. But somehow it feels like they are standing still anyway. They haven't even done high-res screens, which would be a darn nice feature -- had to leave that to Sony and Handera, who implemented it in DIFFERENT ways, making app support a problem. Sheesh.
My next PDA will probably be a Palm again but I'm worried about their future. Of course, if my Palm III keeps working so well, I won't need a PDA for years more and who knows what things will be like by then.
Learning from Apple's mistakes? (Score:2)
Level Playing field (Score:4, Insightful)
But it makes more sense from a sub-licensor standpoint, in that the money you pay isn't necessary going to your direct competitor.
It sort of levels the playing field
Official Release... (Score:3, Informative)
Palm.... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Palm.... (Score:1)
Re:Palm.... (Score:1)
Re:Palm.... (Score:1)
But what about.. (Score:2)
Re:But what about.. (Score:2)
According to The Register, Palm has put the kibosh [theregister.co.uk] on any form of BeOS licensing scheme, open or otherwise.
It sounds like there's a whole lot of moving and shaking going on over in Palm land, though, so separating the facts from the PR might be a bit of a chore for a while.
Spin-off? (Score:4, Informative)
I see it now. . .
Palm spins it off, MS's mere presence threatens to buy and squash it so AOL buys it and uses that as another "see I got that too" to MS.
AOL can't figure out what to do with it so they decide to embed it in their mythical "AOL anyhwere" web-applicance along with RHL, Mozilla, Winamp, etc. Suddenly AOL buys another OS so that MS can't quash it, Palm OS is no longer 'needed' in their scheme so they open-source it and make it another AOLServer, the chaos continues and MS wins because they're the only ones with a direction.
Let's see if my prediction happens. I see a pattern emerging. . . .
Re:Spin-off? (Score:2)
Palm has 70% of the PDA marketshare, and in the public mind, Palm == PDA. They are in no danger of being crushed by anyone for the time being, so long as their hardware division (or the licensees) keeps coming out with better handhelds, and the OS division keeps developing the awesome API, tools, and apps that have made Palm so popular.
The End? (Score:4, Insightful)
From where I am standing I see many more PDA devices running PalmOS. Microsoft may have the marketing power to create the illusion that they have big market share, but in reality any other company would be dead if it was based on moving an OS. The competition here has to be on PocketPC Vs. PalmOS Vs. ???. (Because for one thing Microsoft does not provide any hardware to run their PocketPC OS on). In reality I would bet that their are 50 PalmOS related devices sold for every 1 CE/PocketPC device.
Now do I think that Palm is slacking in their Hardware provisions and enhancments....Hell yes I do...But they are the AOL of the PDA world -- and it wont matter how many bells and whistles they have to compete with -- they still will be the king of the hill.
Re:The End? (Score:2)
Well, I don't know where you live, but ZDNet writes this about Europe:
"A recent study by the England-based market researcher Context Integration, showed Palm's European market share had dipped from 59 percent in January 2000 to 55 percent in December.
By contrast, Hewlett-Packard and Compaq, the two largest manufacturers of Pocket PC devices, combined for 31 percent of the European market at year's end, up from 18 percent at the start of 2000."
Not exactly "1 in 50" is it? Palm has fallen 4 percent units in just a year! They haven't come out with anything compelling since that, and there's nothing new on the radar to stop that trend. In fact, with all the new GSM & GPRS & Pocket PC combos and Pocket PC 2002, I expect the trend to continue even sharper. I'll be very surprised if Palm has over 40% market share by the end of 2002 in Europe.
The reason is pretty clear I think. I've had a Psion 3a, Palm IIIx and Compaq iPAQ and there's absolutely no comparison. The iPAQ is just so far ahead. There's Pocket Word and Excel, I can read PDF's with it, I can listen to mp3's on it, watch videos (not just short clips, thanks to the IBM microdrive and large CF cards), surf on the net with images, frames, 128 bit SSL, JavaScript *AND* Java applets with Insignia's Java VM. There's SSH for it and VNC to remotely use UNIX boxes, Windows Terminal Client to remotely use Windows 2000 workstations and the big difference to Palm is that even if these were available by title to Palm, the quality is in a different realm. On Pocket PC, these apps actually work perfectly like they do on a desktop PC. The CPU is so fast that there's no noticable slowdown when listening to an MP3 while surfing the net with a WLAN connection or always-on cellular connection using GPRS.
Palm does not even come close, and that's very, very sad. But it doesn't help to be kidding ourselves that "Palm is smart". Palm is sucking badly and this article proves that they are indeed in big trouble! The only Palm OS device I'd ever consider buying right now are the very latest Sony CLIE models. And even for those, it's mostly because of the cool design and the added software Sony has for them (like the programmable universal remote control).
Re:The End? (Score:2)
Sure, there Palm devices which are cheaper, but the screens are much worse quality and the included software is much more primitive and limited.
82% market share is the end of the line? (Score:3, Insightful)
I do think that the O/S division being separate is a good thing so if the bozos (former Apple people who have apparently learned nothing about inventory management) that now run Palm screw up again, it is available as a ready-sale item which will keep Palm O/S viable.
Now if we can keep Handspring from shooting itself in the foot (No more Springboard Slots -- WHAT A DUMB IDEA), then the non-MS PDA market can continue to flourish.
Springboard cool thing of the month is MemPlugs [memplug.com] which allow your Handspring to have up to 256MB of RAM. Now that is cool and very usefull for walknetting things from point a to point b.
-- Multics
Re:82% market share is the end of the line? (Score:2)
Yeah, right. Try transferring 256MB through the cradle twice without getting a few gray hairs..
BeOS (Score:2, Interesting)
Palm? Slipping? (Score:2)
Are you sure that Palm's market share is really "slipping"?
Why lie? (Score:1)
Neither does Microsoft anymore. XP launched, and the earnings for MS came up short. XBox launched, and it failed to outpace a one year old console.
MS needs to find another homerun, and they are willing to try just about any market segment to get it.
Why is it necessary for both Palm and Microsoft executives to lie about the capabilities of the other?
Makes sense for the markets, less for business (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem for Palm is that their hardware business has a stronger consumer presence than their software. They also appear to have been asleep at the wheel for some time, while Microsoft was busy reinventing the PDA, Palm have not done anything of note since the Palm VII which is still as big and bulky as ever.
Palm are in a hole because Microsoft are producing a pocket computer while Palm are producing a single purpose appliance.
The problem with a Palm is that is appeals to the same people who used their Filofaxes in the 1980s, those obnoxious organized people who can actually remember to charge the damn thing each night. The Palm VII could have been the answer - a PDA and comunicator in one. Unfortunately using a Palm VII is a bit like using a dual boot Linux/Windows PC. It can play Tombraider, or it can run Gnome but not both at once. Same with the Palm VII, it can download email from Palm net, but it does not integrate seamlessly into my corporate mail system, not without some plugin in the sever my IT dept would never install.
The pocket PC on the other hand is not just a PDA, it has Word and Excell and Outlook. It also has an MP3 player that looks pretty solidly aimed at the consumer market.
So OK at the moment there are relatively few consumers with $500 to spend on a pocket PC, but within a year that price will be $300 and the year after $200. There are an awful lot more consumers interested in a consumer gadget than are interested in a cheap PDA.
OK so you can buy lots of software to make a Palm do the same as a PocketPC - only no MP3 output as there is no audio output. The problem is that by the time you do that you have spent more than you would for the PocketPC and you have a processor that is a third the speed and a third the amount of RAM.
The problem for Palm Software is that they have to quickly get to the point where they can make their platform as a package match Pocket PC. They may be able to buy in some software from third parties and bundle. As things stand they are playing Lotus 123 to Microsoft Office.
Re:Makes sense for the markets, less for business (Score:2)
Palm's primary drawback right now is the underpowered Dragonball processor. However, the ARM-based models coming out RSN will remedy that. Hopefully, Palm's engineers will be smart enough to avoid featuritis and retain two of the key draws of the Palm platform: simplicity and long battery life.
Nathan
Re:Makes sense for the markets, less for business (Score:2, Interesting)
First of all, PocketPCs aren't useful for any of the features you mentioned. Do you really want to type out a full word doc on a PocketPC? And if not, then why can't you use the memopad on a Palmpilot? Same goes for Excel. Another thing.. Palmpilot's can integrate seamlessly with outlook in the same way PocketPC's can (yes, right out of the box). The PalmOS also has a larger base of software and while the processor speed may seem slow it's blazingly fast for almost every application available for it.
Yes, even games on the PalmOS are significantly more advanced than on the PocketPC. And mp3 playback? Puh-lease. I'm really not that interested in storing two mp3s on my PocketPC and then being completely unable to put any programs on it.
So am I saying Palm is better than WinCE? No, not really. I have devices running both operating systems, but there are a lot of things about PocketPCs that bother me. The amount of programs available is small and generally limited to commercial apps. Most of those are pretty task-specific and will only be of use to certain people. The rest are very general purpose and are available for any platform on Earth (PDA or otherwise).
On the other hand, the WinCE interface is "prettier" and more "familiar". It's easy to understand how to use one for basic functions if you know how to use windows. What's that mean? Well, it means that the learning curve is about five minutes shorter than on a PalmOS based device. More advanced functions, like file management, still require learning, reading, and frustration.
As flame-like as this might seem... it's just my opinion. Handhelds running Linux are geeky and fun (argh! damn it all! I want one that I can install Linux on!), handhelds running PalmOS are practical and fun (like I said - mucho games, many good), and handhelds running WinCE are pretty. Organizational tasks are possible on any of them, but in the end I still think the PalmOS has 'em all beat for its practicality and usability.
I strongly disagree (Score:3, Interesting)
The modern PocketPC may be quite a bit further along, but it's really not there yet. It offers few worthwhile reasons to switch and many drawbacks. I mean, for the extra 100-300 dollars, what do you get precisely? You certainly get far inferior battery life [especially if you try to use the handheld as the computer it is marketed to be, not as a PDA]. You get an interface that is not nearly as well designed for actual PDA usage. Palm's UI, while it may not be very pretty by todays standards, is fast and is easy to operate proficiently on the go. In short, while PocketPC may _technically_ be able to run all the PDA applications, it does a significantly inferior job of it on the aggregate.
In it's place....we get what? Word and Excel are only be a frustration for the average person to operate. Even for advanced users, it's pretty frustrating. Mp3s? The storage capacity is not nearly there for me at least and the sound quality is pretty flat.
It's not as if you can say that Palm has been or is a failure. They've got the vast majority of the PDA marketshare and they're still controlling roughly 80% of NEW PDA sales DESPITE the presence of these nifty PocketPC gadgets [not to mention the muscle of one very large company].
You may be correct that it is an evolving market. However, many signs show that Palm is adapting appropriately. They're clearly positioning for a radical change (e.g., StrongARM, Be, etc.)
They can test and develop software and hardware quite well without having to spend millions on marketing devices to consumers before they're appropriate. You assert that PocketPC is a success, but has anyone really made any money on it yet when all is considered? I don't think so.
Re:I strongly disagree (Score:2)
Has Palm made a profit ever?
The stockmarket is down on Palm because they are having to chase ever lower margins at the low end of the business.
I am none too happy with my Palm VII's use of batteries. I would much prefer a rechargeable battery provided it recharges in the cradle. I understand that that is available on some models, but none with the power sucking wireless capability.
As for the new models, I have watched too many technology companies die waiting for the radical reshaping of their product line. Sinclair died when the QL turned out to fall just short of the PC competitor it was meant to be. Apple almost went belly-up with the Apple III.
Re:I strongly disagree (and then so do I) (Score:2)
The QL was far aheaad of what PCs were offering at the time (as were the Amiga and Atari ST)
Rich
Re:I strongly disagree (and then so do I) (Score:2)
The QL had a couple of fatal flaws. First the display model was almost impossible to use for games. Second the microdrive was no substitute for a floppy drive. On top of that they had no strategy for attracting developers, the keyboard also sucked and being unable to buy one without a nine month wait hardly helped.
The problem with the car was not the effect on Sir Clive's fortune, it was the effect of the shoemobile on his reputation. The idea was so ridiculously underbaked he became a laughing stock.
In the end a drop in the price of the Atari ST stole the market, a much better machine for the same price. I even got a monitor thrown in with mine for the same price I paid for the QL.
Re:I strongly disagree (Score:3, Informative)
The stock market was up on DotComs too...and about a zillion other companies. The stock market is easily impressed by glitz. Anyways, margins may be relevant, but you're making a big jump here claiming that it is because of margins and not because of other issues (e.g., major inventory issue). You're also making a mistake in automatically assuming the price == margin. Palm sells their less than state of the art devices for nice margins based on its name brand, wide spread use, and simple things like styling (e.g., Palm V). They've also got some very nice margins on PalmOS licensing at about 1.50 a unit. Compare this with Compaq and others that are fighting to pack the most state of the art components in but are adding little value in as a company....
Well I've not used PalmVII extensively, but I have used most others. They get excellent battery life. I've got a PalmVx and i use it regularly and charge it about once every 3 weeks without issue. Name one PocketPC device that can do this. Also, compare the battery life on the power draining wireless features of other PocketPCs while you're at it too.
Ergo they are dead? I disagree. You're also neglecting the fact that Palm is still very much king of the hill here. You could have argued much the same for DOS, Win3.11, Win95...
Palm is smart (Score:4, Informative)
Also, market saturation will reach the hardware market for PDAs much faster than the software market. Who wants to buy another Palm after they just bought their V for three hundred dollars two years ago? Eventually, devices will reach sufficient power and size that continual advancement is senseless, and additional profits will only be extracted by writing new software. Way to see the future, Palm.
Re:Palm is smart (Score:2, Insightful)
In the computer industry, the money is ALWAYS in software rather than hardware ... The marginal cost for an additional copy of Palm OS, or Tony Hawk 2.5X, or whatever, is practically nothing;
Margins can be better on software, and the cost of duplication is certainly cheaper, but Intel and Cisco, e.g., have done fairly well for themselves primarily as hardware vendors.
Also, market saturation will reach the hardware market for PDAs much faster than the software market ... Eventually, devices will reach sufficient power and size that continual advancement is senseless ...
Again, can't disagree with your overall thinking, but - Couldn't the same be said for the desktop and possibly even server market? i.e. that the machines are getting (have gotten) so immensely powerful that people simply won't buy new ones anymore?
Part of the reason why this doesn't happen, unfortunately, is that the software developers and programmers continue to 1) push existing processing performance capabilities, and/or 2) write ineficient code. In my experience, it's been a combination of those two, with the stress on 2).
If done well (Apple and Sun have done this well, IMO), running both hardware and software shops (to whatever extent) can work well for the company and the consumer.
Re:Palm is smart (Score:2)
One of the great things about Palm (and one of the things that might indeed make hardware saturation a reality) is that all of the software for it is extremely efficient. Palm is doing everything in their power to make sure that your #2 doesn't happen. The UI is minimalistic (but very functional), the API is 100% designed for low-memory footprint,
and most importantly, you can still run nearly every useful palm application on your Palm III (which is 4+ years old), and most of them on your Palm Pilot Pro (released in '97, not counting upgrades).
As long as you don't drop your PDA on the cement and crack the screen (like I did, which is why I just bought a new m505), there is almost zero incentive to buy a new one, unless you want to go for color. Color, and possibly higher resolution like on the Sony Clie's, is the only upgrade right now that is actually worth it (and that's debatable, because you will always be able to organize your datebook in black and white). MP3 players, like those touted on most PocketPC devices, are just fluff, and so is the ability to write full Word documents (really, who wants to type for 3 hours on that little keyboard).
So for the non-gadget freaks, a $100 m100 will do just fine until probably 5 years from now, and you can get an old Palm III for untold numbers of pennies on Ebay. Hardware saturation may be a reality soon.
No, Palm is not as smart as you think... (Score:2, Interesting)
This statement is just wrong in so many ways.
First, they will have the problem that Linux users have with MS Word documents. Microsoft can change the format whenever they want.
Second, most Microsoft documents are meant to be edited from a Windows box, especially when you take into account embedded images, and other crap that bloats a word document. Those dont work so well on a platform with very real and pretty much fixed hardware specs.
The only way that Palm can deal with Microsoft documents better then Microsoft is if Microsoft ports up to date versions of its products to Palm's OS. Given the choice between supporting a competitor or supporting themselves, Microsoft will support its self.
I think they need a better plan. One that involves delivering features specifically targeted to their platform rather then emulating a different platforms capabilities.
END COMMUNICATION
Palm biggest problem (The Dragonball) (Score:5, Informative)
This processor is OLD !
The competitors are miles ahead (BTW: Cool record !)
EPOC - ARM9
PocketPC - StrongArm
Linux - StrongArm
All 32 bits and a modern OS.
Motorola has several successors to the 68xxx series, but none for the PDA marked, the Coldfire for embedded use and the PowerPC for the desktop, and some embedded powerpc variations.
Re:Palm biggest problem (The Dragonball) (Score:2)
They've been sending me emails on their developer list for months about their next gen, ARM-based Palm device.
Re:Palm biggest problem (The Dragonball) (Score:5, Informative)
+++
From: PalmSource
To: (snipped)
Subject: Test your app on Prototype ARM Hardware at PalmSource
PalmSource Conference and Expo
Dear (snipped):
The next Palm OS(R) platform with support for ARM-compliant processors is just around the corner, creating new opportunities for Palm OS developers and licensees. PalmSource is the place to get early access to the expertise, information, and tools you need to hit the ground running with the next OS. The conference starts February 5th at the San Jose Convention Center, so reserve your space today and save off the on-site registration fee.
Register before February 1st
Hotels discounts are only guaranteed through Jan. 11th - make your reservations today at www.palmsource.com.
If you have already registered we'll see you in San Jose! Contact palmsource@corp.palm.com if you have questions.
Refer a colleague. Please forward this invitation to your colleagues.
Developer Conference Highlights
Maximize your development investment
Test and tune your code in open labs equipped with prototype ARM-based hardware.
Learn tips and tricks directly from Palm OS engineers.
Gain efficiencies with the Palm OS Platform Compatibility CD.
Network with the best minds in the industry
Hear keynote addresses from industry leaders Tom Siebel and Dave Nagel.
Connect with people who can influence the future of your business.
Re:Palm biggest problem (NOT The Dragonball) (Score:2, Informative)
Biggest problem is NOT the processor. There are tons of market factors as to why Palms may not be selling. One that comes to mind is, oh, that the processor is perhaps good enough and no one's in a hurry to upgrade!!
PalmOS is intuitive, simple, and does EXACTLY what it was designed to do. It doesn't need any major programming and its very powerful and flexible. How much processing power do you need to call up a person's phone number when you tap their name???
this may seem off-topic, but... (Score:1)
Re:this may seem off-topic, but... (Score:1, Flamebait)
And I was in CompUSA over the weekend and the cheapest G4 they had was $1699 without the monitor. What a rip off considering it had only 128MB RAM and all the components except for the BIOS and CPU are identical to a PC. Is OS X really worth that much of a premium over Windows 2000 or XP? I've used both without crashes or reboots for months at a time.
Re:this may seem off-topic, but... (Score:2)
I hope they call the spun-off company "BeOS" (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:I hope they call the spun-off company "BeOS" (Score:2)
Palm's (and Handspring's) problem... (Score:4, Interesting)
- A.P.
Re:Palm's (and Handspring's) problem... (Score:2, Insightful)
The PDA market isn't looking for a computer that needs to be replaced every three years. You should think of it as a consumer device like a VCR or TV, replaced every 5 to 7 years. Hopefully Palm realizes this. They should start to see the repeat business in the next 2 to 3 years.
I've had my Palm Pro since 97, with one hardware upgrade to add extra memory and the IR port. The only reason I bought it was that I knew if I broke or lost it I could restore everything to the latest model. I have a fixed set of applications that cover all my daily note taking, contacts and reminders.
Color would be nice but there is no extra functionality with it. A higher resolution would help reading text documents. However it works the way it is. I'd rather have the battery life.
If I need more complex processing or better graphics, and so on, I'll switch to my laptop or workstation. The PocketPC holds no appeal for me.
Palm made a consumer device that matched what people wanted. Repeat business will happen if Palm keeps their head, brand loyalty still exists.
WHAT!? (Score:2, Funny)
Oh...It's not Microsoft? Nevermind.
Re:WHAT!? (Score:1, Offtopic)
Palm OS Spin-off (Score:2)
Also, Palm has indicated that it does plan to transition to an ARM processor. Though I don't recall whether they've chosen TI or Motorola as their vendor.
Re:Palm OS Spin-off (Score:2)
If Palm was really smart about their hardware, they'd be selling Palm cellphones, instead of letting Kyocera do it for them with the QPC-6035 (and coming soon, color display version 6055).
I sold my Palm VIIx recently so I could switch to one of these combo devices, and am I ever glad I did! Instead of paying all the monthly charges for Palm.net and being limited to only running Palm
From a developer's point of view (Score:3, Interesting)
As a PalmOS and WindowsCE developer I am constantly tortured by the incredibly sluggish hardware level debugging with WinCE devices.
Additionally during development many WinCE applications will run perfectly well in emulation only to fail on an actual device (and hence requiring more hardware debugging). To be true this is always going to be a problem (the softare emulation/hardware differences) and it does effect PalmOS as well but to a much smaller degree (due to their excellent emulator).
I guess my point is WinCE development is so severly hampered by the Microsoft supplied development environment that I'm not surprised there is considerably less software available for WinCE.
I can see some advantages to WinCE having the 'standard' Win32 interface (assuming you already know how to development in Win32 land) but often I find most functionality is 'stubbed out' and it's a constant question of carefully reading the caveats in the documentation regarding what Win32 features WinCE actually does support...
I'd much rather develop under PalmOS anyday.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
Hardware & Software divisions (Score:2, Insightful)
This should make sense: Execution, as always, will play a major role in the success or failure:
1) Hardware division's now free - though more accountable - to create excellent hardware solutions. (My hope is they innovate, but don't create solutions to problems that don't exist [e.g. the MPEG 4-playing, holographic projector model with purple inverse backlighting].)
They may even, as a poster had mentioned, be able to license WinCE, another OS, or at least parts / applications thereof where they were not able to do previously.
Could/would they also license hardware technology from Sony and others?
2) Software division's now free to find additional licensees, not get (completely) hand-tied for what they can and can't do based solely on what one hardware platform provider is giving them.
In this respect, I'd love to see what the folks from Be have in store for OS 5.5 ...
The overall / corporate unit needs to ensure the software / licensing division is careful when licensees start canibalizing their own sales rather than increasing marketshare for the Palm platform. (c.f. the Apple clone market)
As a user, my hope is they keep the Palm a vital platform - this should help do that, but let's hope they keep their eye on the ball.
let's hope this fixes their SDK fascism (Score:2)
Not an impossible situation, but it took me 4 weeks before I could get the SDK up an running. Good thing I wasn't in a hurry !
Perhaps the new structure will get them to ease-up and OPEN up their SDK so the entire OS community can get busy writing applications without having to sign away their first born child.
Re:let's hope this fixes their SDK fascism (Score:2)
Out with PalmOS in with BeOS... (Score:2)
So let me get this straight.. Palm spins off their PalmOS division allowing it to chase anyone interested in building Dragonball based PDA's (i.e. Handspring) about a year after they announced that the next Palm would be ARM based, and right after they bought Be.. Hmmm?..
Did BeIA support ARM cpus?
What do you think the chances are that Palm decided to spin off the PalmOS division to make room for the new BeOS engineering team?
Re:Out with PalmOS in with BeOS... (Score:2, Interesting)
What do you think the chances are that Palm decided to spin off the PalmOS division to make room for the new BeOS engineering team?
Nah, they're just spinning off the software division before the Xerox lawsuit [slashdot.org] reduces them to rubble.
Palm is in trouble still.... (Score:3, Insightful)
But things got a bit better, and stablizing. But that still doesn't fix the initial problems that Palm has.
1. Margins on PalmOS devices are quite low compared to PocketPC ones. If you ever wondered why they still make PPC's when Palm has 75%+ market is that they don't have to sell that many to make the same amount of money. Compaq has to only sell 1 iPaq to equal Palm selling 6 m100's.
2. They still lack penetration in the enterprise market, which all the big $$$ are made. This is partially due to the advantage that PPC has with their PocketWord/Outlook/Excel, which allows for pretty seamless transfer in the organization.
3. They haven't been that innovative, and their OS lags behind PPC in the networking/wireless division (which is the "cool" thing nowadays)
4. As some mentioned, outdated hardware specs. MS, for PPC2002, has spec'ed them quite high (hi-res TFT screen, 206 StrongARM CPU, 32+ megs of mem, etc).
Splitting the company CAN be good, but only if they utilize their time and resources as efficient as possible to address these 4 points. If not, I should sell the rest of my stock tomorrow.
I've owned a PalmOS machine for 6 years (yeah, since the pilot1000), but right now, I'm seriously looking to get a PPC machine. PPC has caught up to the point that to choose between a Palm and a PPC, Palm doesn't really make any compelling arguments, hardware or software-wise.
Palm should fix some stuff... (Score:2, Insightful)
The 4k Memo limit
The lack of a standard interface to link data points from the basic apps together (such as linking the note fields from datebook and todo lists with the notebook app)
I really like my Palm device, and I admire its simplicity, but even without comparing against other PDAs I think Palm Inc is overdue on making the underlying OS a little more powerful and flexible. Particularly in light of the remaining challenges of PocketPC and PSION, and the new designs of Linux-based PDAs.
Re:Palm should fix some stuff... (Score:2)
You could try PEdit32 from Paul Computing [paulcomputing.com].
$20.00 and you have 32K memos
Or you can try PEditPro which combines PEdit32 and PEdit, meaning you can access 4K memos and 32K memos within the same program.
Oh, it can split large files over several memos and combines them in one single file later
they started on Newton (Score:2)
heh - they started out as software only.
palm's first product (before their own handheld)
was 'Grafitt' for the Newton - provding an
alternate input method for the newton's
poor built-in (1.0) recognition (which improved
drastically with Newton OS 2.0). thier grafitti
worked so well, they thought they'd make their
own whole widget, and the PALM hardware was born.
the more things change,
the more they stay the same.
j.
Palm customer service still top notch (Score:3, Informative)
I thought for sure that with all the handheld problems cropping up of late that Palm would follow in the footsteps of other companies, changing their policies as they pleased. But I'm happy to report that that's not the case.
--=Major
Re:Palm customer service still top notch (Score:2)
I'm not impressed.
Re:Editors care not for what the user wants on /. (Score:1, Funny)
What part of "Make a diary entry with any topic you want" do you not understand?
What part of "Topic: Palm Announces Separated Software Operations" do you not understand?
What part of "browsing at -1 shows all articles" do you not understand?
I wish all you off-topic ranters, goatsex and "first post" posters would fuck off and die for good.