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Handhelds Hardware

Review Of The Sharp Zaurus 5000D 142

Posted by timothy from the sharp-but-not-dangerous dept.
Tim_F writes: "Palmstation has a nice review of the recently available development release of the Sharp Zaurus 5000D. This device looks sweet, with QT Embedded, and Lineo Embeddix. It also features a full JVM based on JDK 1.1.8." Any readers out there who have managed to try one of these out as well?
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Review Of The Sharp Zaurus 5000D More

Review Of The Sharp Zaurus 5000D

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  • This sharp PDA is an excellent idea, but it is just another PDA being relased to the general population, and PDA sales aren't skyrocketing by any means. I think it will just be absorbed like a lot of ther good ideas these days.
    AJ
  • I haven't done much on embedded java, so would anyone please tell me why shipping with a ages-old JVM is a good idea? Especially since JDK 1.4 will be out around the same time (or a bit later than) the device's debut.

    • Re:JDK 1.1.8? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Yokaze ( 70883 ) on Sunday December 09, 2001 @12:23PM (#2678544)
      Just a guess.
      The download size of the file

      jre-1_1_8_008-win.exe = 2,764,736 bytes.

      j2re-1_4_0-beta3-win.exe = 9,156,008 bytes.

      j2re-1_4_0-beta3-linux-i386.bin = 21,550,344 bytes.

      This could be of some concern for a PDA.

      Of course, all those numbers apply only for x86 CPUs an were not optimised for size.

      Lastly, the VM is based on JDK 1.1.8, which is a (industry) standard, and not necessarily a JRE.
      In other words, the VM may be quite new.

      Now the question, why did they use a full fledged Java-enviroment instead of the Java 2, Micro Edition? Probably, because the device can handle it.

      • Re:JDK 1.1.8? (Score:2, Informative)

        by mlanett ( 25627 )
        Actually there is no significant difference between JDK118 and J2ME. Minor security classes.

        The major addition to J2SE was Swing, which nobody in their right mind would use on a PDA. Unfortunately most RADs only emit Swing code. However for PDA you're talking hand-written small code (AWT).
        • Actually there is no significant difference between JDK118 and J2ME. Minor security classes.

          you sure about this? :) J2ME is a subset of the standard Java API's that has been specifically designed to suit embedded systems such as PDA's, mobile phones yada yada.. - you can dig up more information at http://java.sun.com/j2me/ [sun.com] - if you have ever messed with J2ME, you'll be familiar with a concept known as MIDlets - yep, try http://www.midlet.org/ [midlet.org] or http://www.midletcentral.com/ [midletcentral.com] - and, you'll see exactly what they are. they are nothing but applets really, with a very limited subset of API calls so it is possible to squeeze such applications/applets into embedded systems.

          as for the zaurus, i have not played with the unit myself - and, i am not exactly sure if it is capable of executing MIDlets (but, shouldn't take long to set this up). i doubt it is strictly J2ME. sure, a Java virtual machine may have been written - but you'll find it along the lines of KVM or similar, providing a small subset of the Java language (as another poster mentioned - no Swing et al) :P Java can get big, but, if you trim it down, the virtual machine and base classes can be as little as 256k - ideal for a PDA environment.
      • Gee. Maybe you could check out the Zaurus [sharpsec.com] developer's site. There you'd find this:

        "According to the PersonalJava Technology White Paper, PJAE's target device is specified as follows: less than 2MB of ROM, 1MB of RAM..."

        It's in the section "Java on the Sharp PDA."

        But, by all means, keep guessing. Why let pesky facts get in the way?
        • Unless there is some fact in this statement, which is not apparent to my eyes, we still have to guess the actual size of a Java2 API supporting VM.

          The PJAE provides an API equivalent to the Java 1.1.8 API.
          I'd say therefor there is no such fact, which shows us, how large an assumed, because nonexistant, Java 1.3 or even Java 1.4 VM for the Zaurus is. Hence, we have to guess.

          The increase of size for the Intel JREs gives us an idea about the probable increase.
          My _guess_ is that a Java 1.4 API compatible JRE would be roughly 3 times larger.

          The "less than 2MB of ROM, 1MB of RAM..." just gives you a basis to extrapolate the absolute size.
          • The "less than 2MB of ROM, 1MB of RAM..." just gives you a basis to extrapolate the absolute size.

            Yep. And, you have to extrapolate DOWN, because this is an upper limit. True, this limit may be increased in future specs, but I doubt it will be anywhere near the sizes you quoted in your first post.

            Why?

            PersonalJava is targeted for small devices. The two larger JDK's you used as examples were targeted for PCs.

            The two JDK implementations you used as examples were BETA versions, not optimized for much of anything, let alone size.

            So, guess again.

    • Re:JDK 1.1.8? (Score:1, Informative)

      by ofels ( 255261 )
      It is not JDK 1.1.8 on that device, it is Insignias Jeode runtime version of Personal JAVA, which is in most parts JRE 1.1.8 compliant (and JRE, not JDK).

      PJ is a (though almost complete) subset designed for use with embedded devices.

      Taking a fully bloated JDK/JRE of tha JAVA2 environment would require the device to be extended with much more memory and CPU power- Swing is a beast here.

      Oliver
  • With QT embedded we should have quite a few programs ported over to that pretty quickly, especially since it uses Linux. Some of KDE's flashyness would probably go over nicely. Some of KDE's programs will probably go over nicely, for that matter....
    • If it ran X11, it wouldn't just have Qt applications ported over, it would also have all the AgendaVR and Familiar programs ported over, plus the handwriting recognition and input software.
  • I own one of these little puppies and I am happy to say it rocks. Tons of kde apps are already ported to Qt embedded, you can hack this thing to run X, and most importantly it is as good as any palm/pocket pc and keeping you orgranized.
  • "I don't want to turn this into a device review - that will come later "

    IDIOT!
  • I have owned a few Palms in my day, and all of them have ended up being ignored for the most part. The trouble with them is that if I'm in my car making appointments on my cell phone, there's no way I can spend 5 minutes using graffiti, etc. to enter a new appointment. It just isn't convenient enough for me. So, until they have a voice recognition system that allows me to add a contact, and schedule a meeting with them by uttering a few simple words, I'll stick with my pen and paper.
    • Uhhh... you may want to go look a the article and/or the pics on the Sharp website.

      This PDA has a nice little tuck-away QWERTY keyboard... built in... so no "5 minutes using graffiti" required. ;)
    • Depending on where you are located it's possible you shouldn't be using your cell phone in the car anyway, let alone working on some DPA. Perhaps it would be beneficial to use the scheduling features of PDA's so that you are not pressed into making appointments and holding meetings while driving a car. If you're that important, then hire a driver so that you can really do your job while travelling.

  • Sweet little machine (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Sunday December 09, 2001 @12:01PM (#2678502)
    It's a sweet little machine. I have spent all of 5 minutes playing with it as the day job is insane these days.

    I love the keyboard, and I love the size of the thing. A few things stick out as sore thumbs. One is that it needs some sort of carrying case. I guess I'll see if I can find one from a CE or Palm that it would fit nicely in.

    Another is that while it attempts to do hand writing recognition, it's brain dead at it. Sure the keyboard is there, but I find it quicker to write on the screen being used to my Newton 2100. Would be nice if it had Graffitti (not sure it doesn't) or the ability to write text on the screen.

    When you do HWR, you have to switch modes (a UI design no-no) and it splits your screen into two areas, one into which you write. Once it recognizes your handwriting - and it never does, it pastes the text into the currently open application. In other words, it's brain dead.

    This would be a great area for improvement.

    I totally love the color screen. The size and clarity of the display would be perfect for reading text, playing games (porting MAME would be awesome), and with the camera attachment - taking pix.

    It would be really sweet if I could attach a small hard drive to this, like one of those IBM microdriver in some sort of backpack/cradle - then I could use it to see short mpegs, have some real mp3 storage, etc. :)

    That it has an mp3 player is awesome, but CF and the secure flash lots limit how much you can store, so I won't be using this as my mp3.

    Another annoyance is I find is that it doesn't fit very well into the cradle. You have to wiggle it a bit, and I'm afraid of breaking the connector...

    It looks very promising though.
    • The specs seem 'giant' compared to other PDA's? Am I reading this wrong? What's your take on it compared to say a Palm 500/505?

      Thanks.
    • The IBM Microdrive is a CF II card form factor. The 340mb ones are available pretty cheaply. Buy one and let us know if it works. The 1gb ones are more expensive.
      • I've been using my Zaurus with a 340MB Microdrive and it works just fine, I dont see any reason why the 1GB wont work too, since they both work the same under Linux on my laptop (just haven't gotten around to trying the 1GB one in the Zaurus yet).
    • These are only dev versions. They have less memory than the final versions will have (32/64). And the software is also far from complete.

      Do note that because it is CF2 compatible it WILL support the microdrive.
  • For a Linux PDA, it doesn't like the linux browsers (ie Galeon). It does like Netscape though. It's funny as they're built off the same base.
    If Sharp are hoping to sell this primarily to the linux market, then surely they should allow their website to be viewed with any browser!!

  • It's nice (Score:5, Informative)

    by 1010011010 ( 53039 ) on Sunday December 09, 2001 @12:07PM (#2678519) Homepage
    I have three of them for a project at work. We plan to used them, or a device like them, to aid in scoring oral exams -- pace the exam, prompt the questions, collect the scores for each section, etc.

    It has a number of nice features for this application:
    • Screen cover (unlike the iPaq)
    • $399 price includes two expansion slots ($499 iPaq has no slots)
    • Light (50% lighter than iPaq with $150 add-on expansion sleeve)
    • comes with linux on it (I don't have to reprogram 150 or so of these things)
    • works with inexpensive CF 802.11b cards, like the Linksys model.
    • can be powered/charged from AC without being in the cradle
    • although we don't plan to use it for the exams, the keyboard is nice
    • full networking support, including dhcp and multicast.
    • removable/replaceable battery. I have an iPaq that will no longer hold a charge, and I cannot replace the battery.


    Adding a single PCMCIA slot and wireless card to an iPaq increases the cost to $850/unit and yields a device with no free slots, but 802.11b networking.

    Adding a wireless card to this Zaurus yields a device with networking and one free slot (an SD slot) for $500. Plus, its noticeable smaller and lighter, and much easier to hold for a long time. Only problem so far: the 802.11b card blocks the stylus slot.

    Now we just need apps! apps! apps! so that Sharp will ship this thing retail and sell them at best buy. It includes all the usual stuff - address book, calendar, todo list, email (pop/smtp), etc. Also includes games, like asteroids (everyone in my office found the asteroids game almost immediately). It just needs "fit and finish."

    Sync over 802.11b would be a nice trick. Currently it uses Intellisync over USB, using 192.168.1.200 and 192.168.1.201 as the unit and host addresses for its private network. It would seem that a major corporate nice-thing would be to have a sync server for the Zaurus, so that employees could just walk near an access point and get things synced.

    Anyway, it's easily the nicest PDA I've seen, and held.
    • Correction: iPaq cost is $750. The iPaq setup is abotu 150% of the price and mass of the Zaurus.

      • Re:It's nice (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Telek ( 410366 )
        You can get brand new iPAQs 3670s on eBay for $350USD-$400.

        I've also seen them in stores for $550USD-$600.

        The iPAQs are more expensive, yes, almost certainly in part to the WinCE lincense, however in many cases YGWYPF (you get what you pay for). I can't really comment because I haven't used one of these Sharp units yet, but I can't wait to try one.

        Also, we have no idea WHAT the sale price of the Sharp unit will be, as it's not in stores yet. It could turn out to be $450, and by that time new iPAQs could have dropped to the same (in stores), so it's unfair to make a price comparison yet.

    • Apps? (Score:4, Informative)

      by fm6 ( 162816 ) on Sunday December 09, 2001 @12:32PM (#2678568) Homepage Journal
      Now we just need apps! apps! apps!
      Well, there will certainly be apps, given the established community of Java programmers and the rising community of Qt programmers. But Java 1.1.8? Java 2 has been out for nearly 2 years, and Sun plans to end-of-life the 1.1 stream next year. I suspect that Sharp considers Java to be a stopgap technology, to be used only until the Qt software base reaches critical mass.

      Certain folks in Cupertino can't be happy about this. Java doesn't seem to be winning much acceptance in hand-held application development. Given the failure of Java in other markets, the technology seems to be limited to writing business logic for app servers and hacking out specialized XML editors and filters.

      • Re:Apps? (Score:3, Informative)

        by GeorgieBoy ( 6120 )
        Well, there will certainly be apps, given the established community of Java programmers and the rising community of Qt programmers. But Java 1.1.8? Java 2 has been out for nearly 2 years, and Sun plans to end-of-life the 1.1 stream next year. I suspect that Sharp considers Java to be a stopgap technology, to be used only until the Qt software base reaches critical mass


        Unfortunately, part of the reason that Java 1.1.8 is the highest supported version is b/c of the legal battle between M$ and Sun over M$ about violating their license. The M$ VM for IE is stuck at this versionr - so developers remain stuck on Java 1.1.8 for applets, b/c they are more or less "guaranteed to work" if they are written with this spec. This is a sad reality. Even so, Is there really existing Java software that would be suitable on this device? I have two of these units in my office, and they did not ship with any Java apps, only a dumb gfx demo and an animated applet from the web.

        • Re:Apps? (Score:2, Informative)

          by Dg93 ( 10261 )
          Ummm - no. The Personal Java spec is aimed at lightweight machines, and was at jdk 1.1.8 because it doesn't have a lot of the (enterprise app driven) overhead of the Java2 platform. It has nothing to do with supporting applets.

          Java is much more than applets.

          --Dg, a java developer who hasn't written an applet in 4 years
          • Yes, but the PJ spec is crappy for embedded.This doesn't mean it won't continue to be used, sadly. The company I work for makes embedded Java VMs, and we have better solutions than the AWT that the Personal Java spec uses. It's too thick a layer for embedded, we've made much better performance using other GUI frameworks.

            Applets are the least exciting thing about Java.

          • Ah, good point. So my inference that Sharp wasn't serious about Java is obviously bogus. Oh well.

            But I find Sun's strategy in this area to be a little confused. On the one hand, they're EOLing Java 1.1.x. On the other hand they're still using it as a basis for PersonalJava [sun.com] with "possible inclusion" of Java 2 features. My guess (by percentages, I'll get one right eventually) is that they'd like all the handheld developers to migrate to J2ME [sun.com], but are having trouble convincing people.

      • Given the failure of Java in other markets...

        [fx: resists]

        [fx: resists]

        [fx: gives up]

        Java is extremely popular for in-house software. That may not be a very visible market, but it accounts for 90% of software (according to a figure I saw in a mag). Far from `failure'.

        That's all, you can carry on now.

    • yes, the apps... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by vscjoe ( 537452 )
      Now we just need apps! apps! apps! so that Sharp will ship this thing retail and sell them at best buy.

      As an open source developer, why would I want to develop for an embedded toolkit that almost nobody uses? A toolkit that's put out in this form as an advertising gimmick by a software company? A toolkit that takes over the screen and excludes all other open source GUI software?

      And as a commercial developer, why would I want to develop for a toolkit that's more expensive than an MSDN subscription and is used on almost no platforms?

      Sharp shot themselves in the foot when they picked Lineo and Qt/Embedded--there is no way this is going to attract a large developer following. They should have gone with X11/FLTK on Familiar or something combo like that. It's too bad, too, because the hardware is really nice.

      • Re:yes, the apps... (Score:3, Interesting)

        by 1010011010 ( 53039 )
        A toolkit that's put out in this form as an advertising gimmick by a software company?

        Actually, my spy network tells me that Sharp paid TrollTech to develop QPE.

        toolkit that's more expensive than an MSDN

        They will apparently be lowering the price.

        They should have gone with X11/FLTK

        Mmm... ugly, non-portable, AND obscure. A winning combo. QT can at least be used on Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc. :)

        I do wonder if they (or someone else) will ship Wince [dictionary.com] for this thing at some point. Not that I want Wince.

        • Re:yes, the apps... (Score:3, Insightful)

          by vscjoe ( 537452 )
          "They should have gone with X11/FLTK"

          Mmm... ugly, non-portable, AND obscure. A winning combo. QT can at least be used on Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc. :)

          I'm not sure what you mean. FLTK runs on Windows, UNIX, Linux, and MacOS, with several other ports in the work. It's tiny, and you'd be hard pressed telling an FLTK application from ones written in other toolkits. And it's the de-facto standard for handheld Linux and lots of applications have been written in it.

          But with X11, you aren't limited to one toolkit, you can still run Qt apps if you like. Qt/Embedded pretty much forces everybody to buy into Qt, a great business move for Troll Tech, but no good for everybody else.

          Actually, my spy network tells me that Sharp paid TrollTech to develop QPE.

          So? Qt is still being released under the GPL to generate business for Qt from commercial customers. You may think that arrangement is pretty swell, I think it will ultimately kill Linux on handhelds if any commercial developer has to pay thousands of dollars before being able to create GUI software for something like the Sharp.

          • Qt is still being released under the GPL to generate business for Qt from commercial customers. You may think that arrangement is pretty swell, I think it will ultimately kill Linux on handhelds if any commercial developer has to pay thousands of dollars before being able to create GUI software for something like the Sharp.

            Actually, buying the development unit entitles you to the development software. Even if that weren't the case, though, it's pretty much the same place you're standing if you were developing for PalmOS or WinCE/PPC. Somebody here was saying that QPE was more money than MSDN. Uh, have you received your MSDN bill recently? Sure, if you're getting the docs only subscription it's still relatively cheap, but if you want those compilers you better cough up a lung.

            The best part about MSDN, for me, was sitting there opening my mail and watching the news and hearing that Microsoft had told the judge that they weren't a price-gouging monopoly. I opened my MSDN renewal invoice and in the span of one year the price had jumped 40%. That was the year that the last of the competitive Windows development tools producers gave up....

            As a developer I am not especially turned off by the fact that the whole thing isn't open source. It's more important that it be open information. This tool is the most open of any of the palm devices I've seen; anyone with any Linux or UNIX experience at all is going to be able to make this thing do backflips.

            Lots of people have been wondering where the market will be for this device, since Linux people are such a small market in and of themselves. I don't see that being the issue at all. We're the seed market, but the real market going out the door is going to be integrators and vertical market apps people. Java and superb 802.11b support? Damn, in a couple of weeks I could deploy this thing as a handheld database access tool with a custom application. And this can be done for about $600/unit ($100 less for the preproduction units). You can't touch the extensibility with the Palms and you can't touch the price with the PPCs.

            And that, my friends, is going to sell units -- even if they don't do anything to the unit at all by the time it ships.

            If there's any one thing I'd like to see, though, it would be Qt bindings for the Java interpreter. AWT sucks, and Swing (you /can/ get Swing) is just too much of a pig. Still, you really want the widgets ... and Qt has 'em and they're tight and fast like you wish Swing would be.

            It's a very interesting unit.
            • Even if that weren't the case, though, it's pretty much the same place you're standing if you were developing for PalmOS or WinCE/PPC.

              If the proposition is "this is no worse than PalmOS or WinCE", that's not a particularly good one. I expect more from Linux, and not just technically.

              This tool is the most open of any of the palm devices I've seen;

              Perhaps you haven't seen much then. The Compaq iPaq runs full Linux with X11 and allows you to use whatever toolkit you like. The AgendaVR runs a full version of Linux and X11 as well. Availability of powerful handhelds running fully open Linux has not been a problem.

              anyone with any Linux or UNIX experience at all is going to be able to make this thing do backflips.

              Well, no. A Java programmer can create Java applications for it, but a Java programmer can also create Java applications for Palm or WinCE. A C programmer can't write any GUI apps for it. And a C++ programmer has to learn a new toolkit and completely change the GUI code of their existing X11 applications.

              It's a very interesting unit.

              It is. It is also too bad that Sharp didn't have the guts to go with completely open and unencumbered software and standards.

              • Even if that weren't the case, though, it's pretty much the same place you're standing if you were developing for PalmOS or WinCE/PPC.

                If the proposition is "this is no worse than PalmOS or WinCE", that's not a particularly good one. I expect more from Linux, and not just technically.

                I don't much buy into the theory that Linux ought to be an all-free-or-nothing proposition. If it is the case that I can get a better tool if I pay for it (and, historically, that has been very much the case) then I'm happy to pay for it.

                This tool is the most open of any of the palm devices I've seen;

                Perhaps you haven't seen much then. The Compaq iPaq runs full Linux with X11 and allows you to use whatever toolkit you like. The AgendaVR runs a full version of Linux and X11 as well. Availability of powerful handhelds running fully open Linux has not been a problem.

                I don't count the iPAQ as an "open" palmtop because, when you pull it out of the package, it's proprietary all the way. Granted you can convert it, but I have a lot of better things to do with my time than doing that kind of thing, and I certainly have no intention of trying to sell palmtop software that's created for an iPAQ running Linux until Compaq sells them that way, hopefully for obvious reasons.

                Even if you do, the iPAQ is a substantially larger and more expensive unit (at least if you want expansion capabilities). Cheap stuff wins.

                anyone with any Linux or UNIX experience at all is going to be able to make this thing do backflips.

                Well, no. A Java programmer can create Java applications for it, but a Java programmer can also create Java applications for Palm or WinCE. A C programmer can't write any GUI apps for it. And a C++ programmer has to learn a new toolkit and completely change the GUI code of their existing X11 applications.

                Well, ok, some UNIX programmers will have to learn some new tricks to make it sing, but they ought to be fairly comfortable doing things with it.

                Regarding rewriting GUI code for X11 applications, I would kind of expect that to do a good job for a palmtop application you're going to have to rework you UI to a significant degree anyway -- different form factor and input considerations usually means different design. The fact that Microsoft didn't want to do that has a lot to do with why WinCE sucked so much.

                YMMV, of course, but this is unit has a lot of potential in my opinion. The fact that there are likely to be a lot of different handhelds running Linux doesn't change that, although it does make this one even more appealing to me as an early-adopter system.

                I suppose how interesting this is, versus something like an iPAQ with Linux, has a lot to do with your goals. I don't want a device for personal hacking, I want a tool that makes it easy for me to build software I can sell.

        • "Mmm... ugly, non-portable, AND obscure. A winning combo. QT can at least be used on Windows, Mac, Linux, Solaris, etc. :)"

          FLTK can be used on Windows, MacOS, Linux (and anything running X11...). As for "ugly"- that'd be the default UI look and feel. You can produce NICE looking UI code with FLTK (Witness "Post Office", a mail program using FLTK as the GUI lib (http://www.tarball.net/postoffice [tarball.net])- it looks as polished as many commercial products.) and the default UI look and feel is about to get an update with the 2.0 release that is currently in development.

          Don't get me wrong, Qt is nice. Qt, however, is much, much larger (even with Qt Embedded) than FLTK (2 or so Mb versus 200-400k for FLTK!) and requires special pre-processors to make the code go.

  • What it needs (Score:1, Flamebait)

    by Telek ( 410366 )
    In my opinion, is a WINE for WinCE... If it had that, I'd buy one in a second.

    As for the people who are saying that it's so easy to program, have you ever done any windows programming? I find it a *lot* easier to do programming for WinCE/Windows using any of the nice RAD tools that you can get, and I don't see so much in the way of linux, but I could be wrong.

    I am absolutely in love with the keyboard, as I had a Rim pager for a while and absolutely loved that keyboard. It took a bit of getting used to, but it was so much nicer than using a stylus.

    The only thing that I'm worried about for these devices is the "quirks" that are so typically linux. I've used linux a lot, and it works great, that is provided that nothing goes wrong. As soon as anything goes wrong you require a lot more knowledge than the average CS person to get it working again, and there are also a lot more applications out there for WinCE than there are for Linux. Add to that when .NET comes out, you'll have a lot of WinCE applications that are just an extension of what you have on your desktop (I've heard some about what you will be able to do, and it will be damned neat for anyone who doesn't have a vendetta against Microsoft). For example, I have a friend who has an iPAQ with a wireless card in it, and he can use Terminal Services to TS to his main workstation while he's in a meeting, monitor his build progress, change a few things and recompile, and a bunch of other things. It's really quite neat.

    Let the flaming begin, but if WinCE was available for this device then I'd definitely wait for it to roll out before buying a new PDA. But at this point in time I've heard too many complaints about using embedded linux (if you have any comments, no flames please, but I'd be glad to hear rational comments) and my personal experience with desktop linux hasn't been fantastic either. The last time I tried it the default install wouldn't work on either my old or my new laptop, and I still have yet to be able to recompile the kernel on my old laptop without it doing a kernel panic on boot.

    In any case, just my opinion.

    • Re:What it needs (Score:3, Insightful)

      by 1010011010 ( 53039 )
      Iv'e not found anything particularly nice about WinCE or its included apps. I find Windows more difficult to program for than Linux, using GTK. I've not started programming with QT, but it looks as easy, maybe easier. I'll avoid the JVM.

      I agree with your "quirks" assessment. As I mentioned earlier, it still needs some "fit and finish." For instance, a way to edit /etc/pcmcia/* without a text editor. For instance, this would be nice:

      1) insert Linksys 802.11b card
      2) Zaurus sees if it is already listed in config files
      3) if no, start a configuration app that asks what kind of device it is, etc.
      4) zaurus modifies config files

      ... the same app could be used to view/configure already configured devices, or configure a device in advance of plugging it in. Or read an installer file from an SD or CF card that contains drivers for a new device. OR read installer packages on the device that came over from IntelliSync. Maybe they'll do things like this in the retail model. This is the developer model, the "D" on the model number is there for a reason. You have a pre-release device. They even cut the RAM in half (to 32MB) to encourage developers to write smaller apps. It absolutely rocks for a pre-release developer model. I can't wait to see the final version.

      Also, as far as the remote-desktop thing goes, I can use VNC on the Zaurus to do the same thing, and it works with windows, macs and unix, unlike "Terminal Services."
    • You are wrong about GUI development environments.

      QT blows away everything else I've seen. Makes MFC look like the mess it is.

      sdw
      • MFC is very very old.

        I have a circa 1995 program called Optima Power++ that makes it so incredibly easy to develop in C++ for windows... Like Visual Basic made easy for C... very very sweet. I can still use that to design the UI and then write the guts in a newer RAD tool... It's great. Very very easy. I don't think that anything like this exists quite yet for linux, but if I am wrong please tell me where!

    • programming for WinCE/Windows using any of the nice RAD tools that you can get, and I don't see so much in the way of linux


      Since the Zaurus runs Java, you can use any number of Java RAD IDEs today to write your code. Forte and Visual Age are two free ones that come to mind.
      • Visual Age is a POS really, I tried it and it's horrbile.

        And I have an inherant dislike of Java because it's designed to be inefficient and slow. It's a beast. I have been programming in it fulltime now for a year however, and I can appreciate that it comes with libraries that make things easy, however I dislike the language itself. It's like the "oohhh, no you're not smart enough to play with pointers!" type of thing. I know that in many cases programmers don't want to care about memory allocation and pointers, but what if I like optimization and efficiency? There should at least be some way to give me that functionality.

        Having said that, C# looks rather interesting.
    • Add to that when .NET comes out, you'll have a lot of WinCE applications that are just an extension of what you have on your desktop (I've heard some about what you will be able to do, and it will be damned neat for anyone who doesn't have a vendetta against Microsoft). For example, I have a friend who has an iPAQ with a wireless card in it, and he can use Terminal Services to TS to his main workstation while he's in a meeting, monitor his build progress, change a few things and recompile, and a bunch of other things. It's really quite neat.

      Umm, if you're developing under UNIX you've been able to do that for years since remote login support has always been there. Being able to do it with a palmtop has been possible for years too; telnet over a wireless connection has been available on PalmOS since before the first WinCE device shipped (I tried it in 1997 over a CDPD modem), and at this point all of the palmtops have 802.11 support and available telnet applications.

      This is one of the reasons I prefer to develop on UNIX. I can leave the computer wherever I normally use it and access it via any network-connected device.

      I have no comments on the viability of building things for embedded Linux at this point, having done no programming for the device yet, although in general it looks and feels like a stripped-down UNIX, and not all that stripped-down at that. I am very certain I can work with that. I can especially work with it given that there's a decent Java interpreter. Maybe that's not good enough for production but it's sure good enough for proof of concept.

      I don't have anything in particular against WinCE/PPC other than that the units are much too expensive to compete against PalmOS, at least until someone comes up with a killer app that makes the extra functionality of the PPC worth the extra money. Right now it's like paying hundreds of dollars more for flashier versions of the same applications, and getting a box that doesn't even fit in your pocket to boot.

      The Zaurus has some of these faults too. The developer unit, at $400, is still more expensive than any PalmOS unit I've ever bought. It's much larger than the Palm V or the Visor Edge or the Clio.

      Where the Zaurus stands out over the PalmOS units is that it is fully internet aware and has superb 802.11b driver support in the box, plus a full-function web browser. This unit, plus $100 for a wireless card, makes a very nice network access device for a lot less money than a similar WinCE/PPC unit or a laptop.

      This thing may never be popular as a consumer device, not when the production unit is expected to be priced well above even the most expensive PalmOS devices. But it sure as heck could find some niches in vertical market applications.
  • I just got my Zaurus in the mail on Thursday, and I have to say that it was worth it. The demo unit is a bit unrefined, but at least it doesn't crash nearly as often as my old Windows CE 2.0 device (a clunky old Jornada). Audio playback is OK, but I just really love how it runs Linux. Not having to pay the Palm or Microsoft tax is quite liberating, I must say.

    Unfortunately, I couldn't make it to the conference due to some work obligations. However, I'm already in the process of coding some (GPL, naturally) applications for the Zaurus, including a web browser, a small game where you have to clobber Bill Gates (think xbill, but for Qt), and a text editor.

    /me loves his new toy.
  • It's interesting to note that the specifications state that there is no 'copyright protection' on the SD slot. I never really understood why manufacturers ever included the 'feature' since it would have to be turning off lots of customers, including those not into copying but forseeing hassles just doing what the have a right to.

    Hopefully this and other copy protection features will be weeded out by natrual selection.

  • VAMPIRES! (Score:3, Funny)

    by tempest303 ( 259600 ) <jensknutson@yFOR ... m minus language> on Sunday December 09, 2001 @12:48PM (#2678601) Homepage
    Oh my GOD!! [interpug.com] Check out the claws in this pic!

    The dead have risen, and they're reviewing handhelds! AAAHHHHHHH!!!!

    • That's some gross shit there, I must say.

      I don't know what's worse: to imagine that it's the hand of a woman (but a woman with such manly hands is an unsetting thought) or a man (gross).

  • I have one of these... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by bc90021 ( 43730 ) <bc90021&bc90021,net> on Sunday December 09, 2001 @01:03PM (#2678640) Homepage
    And I've been using it for half a week now. Some things to note:

    • The handwriting recognition isn't that bad. It requires you to train the device for certain characters if you want your own handwriting to work, but that doesn't take much time.
    • IBM MicroDrives work with no problem. I have a 340MB version, and several other Zaurus owners have reported the 1GB version working. (Though they drain the battery quickly.)
    • There are already tons of programs that have been ported. SSH, Telnet, Seminole Web Server, Jikes, Python, BitchX, Konqueror, NMap, and Perl to name just a few.
    • The keyboard is really easy (and actually kinda fun) to use!
    • The synching for Windows could use a little work, but it is a developer's model. Someone has already patched the 2.4.x kernels to allow USB networking over Linux in order to connect it to a Linux box, so it is now Linux friendly. :)
    • The "Word Game" that comes with it (like Scrabble) has been very addicting!
    • It is easily 80% of the size of a typical WinCE handheld, and includes two expansion slots (one CF and one SD) by default.

    Overall, it's a very neat little device. Since it is only a developer's version, it still has its few kinks to work out. But I won't be buying another PDA for a good long time.
  • Here's my review [russnelson.com] of the Sharp Zaurus. Maybe it sucks, and that's why it wasn't published as a Slashdot story? Anyway, you can read it for yourself.
    -russ
  • Infosync also have a eview on this PDA, it has some hi-res pictures too. http://www.infosync.no/show.php?id=1162&page=1

  • from the Simpson's Planet of Apes, the Musical (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    "Doctor Zaurus!"
    "Doctor Zaurus!"

    Perfect marketing campaign.

  • Zauru (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mduckworth ( 457088 ) on Sunday December 09, 2001 @02:51PM (#2678864) Homepage
    Hey, My roomate has the japanese equivalent, the Zaurus MI-E1 which has been out in japan for over a year now. He was over there last winter. He has all sorts of attachments for it including the Compact flash digital camera. This device is pretty amazing, the japanese one has an SH processor and runs ZaurusOS but it's very very sweet. Full screen mpeg4 video is not a problem for it. It's very fast, and this american one should be faster and a lot more amazing. These things put Ipaq's to shame, trust me ;)

  • hmmmm (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Capt. Beyond ( 179592 )
    I got mine on Monday. It's now sunday, and I can now upload emacs to it.

    geeky little thing. this device was meant to be wireless.

    Alot has been said about the headphone jack vs. speaker. I can't really understand this. Did a walkman have a speaker? The Zaurus can output 44.1/16 bit audio, and your never going to get that from a little tiny pda speaker. I applaud their decision to do that.

    It has a speaker for beeps, congks and groans, anyway.

    The keyboard is a nice feature. Not at all difficult to peck out messages and letters fairly fast.

    and handwriting terminal commands is really bizaar!!! well worth the price paid!!
  • The device runs Lineo and Qt/Embedded. Is Lineo completely open source or are there proprietary components? Can I recompile every binary on it from scratch? Is the screen buffer driver code in its version of Qt/Embedded open source (so that one can port X11 to it)?

  • Very nice! (Score:3, Informative)

    by ddmckay ( 56023 ) on Sunday December 09, 2001 @05:06PM (#2679377) Homepage
    I just got back from the LISA '01 conference and there was a guy (can't remember his name...) that had a SHARP there. He had received it on Thursday before the conference and was showing it off at the Linux on Handhelds BOF.

    I got a chance to use it and it was quite nifty. The thumb keyboard is very usable. I opened a terminal window and was able to type in a few stock UNIX commands, no problems. The keyboard's main problem was a lack of control keys and the escape key. They may be there with some funny mapping, but I couldn't find them in the few minutes I had to play with the device.

    The other impression I got was how well built the device is. It's much stronger than it looks and the slide that hides the keyboard has a nice solid feel to it.

    I'm planning on ordering one in the next few days...
  • WOW, someone has to tell our reviewer to trim his hist finger nails [interpug.com]... weird.

  • when the first 100 posts aren't concerned with how to flash the thing to make it run something else.

    On a more serious note, I can't wait until Evolution and Outlook will natively support synching over IP.

  • Zaurus is awesome (Score:3, Informative)

    by Bill Kendrick ( 19287 ) <bill@newbreedsoftware.com> on Monday December 10, 2001 @04:45AM (#2681026) Homepage
    Now, I have an entire To-do list filled with bugs, oddities, and ideas about the thing, but for only just coming out as even a developers' edition, this machine is quite mature. The community is great (although too many people ask "how do I make a pipe ('|') character?" on the lists... hint: It's Shift+Space!), and Sharp is going ALL OUT with this puppy.

    I was one of the lucky few invited to the Symposium they held the day before the Internet World Wireless West conference in San Jose last week (many, was that place desserted! - and, not too surprisingly, Sharp's booth was by far the kick-ass-est). (Not doubt because of all of the random Linux development [newbreedsoftware.com] I've done, including stuff for the Agenda [newbreedsoftware.com] (another Linux-based PDA).

    As for the hardware, it's quite sturdy (compared to my poor, beat up dev. edition of the Agenda), and the keyboard is a godsend. (I knew I'd love it, because I have a pager with a similar keyboard, and love it.) Now - the onscreen keyboard, pickboard, unicode and handwriting aren't to sneeze at, though. They're quite useful!

    It's just, when you whip out your PDA, turn it on to show off its color screen, and then pop out the keyboard, THAT's when people's eyes bug out. ;^) Anyway.. I love it. Expect plenty of games for it from me once I get my USB, development environment, etc. set up. (Oh, and learn Qt and that damned C++ language.)

  • OK, I guess Java is kind of popular out there, but not as much in the Linux community or open source communities.

    I think Ruby would be an excellent choice of programming languages for this thing. Ruby:
    *is small - less than 800K (can be made even smaller if you get rid of a few libraries that you may not need)
    *is Free (as in Open Source)
    *has Qt bindings
    *is easy to write distributed apps in dRuby - this would especially be good if they can get a wireless link for this thing.
    *has reasonable performance
    *is (IMHO) a much nicer language to program in than Java.

    How about it Sharp?
  • I am very interested in the Sharp PDA, but I need to make sure my $400 will not be wasted. I am a developer with Sharp, so I can get one now, but I have heard (or read) that the memory Sharp advertises that the sl5000d will have is not what developers get. If I order and get one now, will I get less RAM, and if so how much? I am very anxious to get it (it is just so darn sexy), but I need to know if waiting until the retail, public version is worth it. Thanks.

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