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Handhelds Hardware

Two Handfuls Of Handhelds 125

Posted by timothy from the but-what-about-your-other-hand dept.
rgarcia writes: "CNET has this story: Panasonic announced on Monday its first handheld computer, the Toughbook 01, which is designed to complement its notebook line of the same name. The consumer electronics maker has been selling into a niche in the notebook market by focusing on durable laptops that can withstand the shock of a fall and can resist moisture, dust and scratches. I know Ive dropped a few in my day. Damn things are fragile. Cool design, though I dont know if its actually better." And an unnamed reader points out that DALinux now has hardware available: "They claim it is Palm compatible, but it won't run palm apps - so what 'Palm compatible' means is anyone's guess. But it is a cool gadget, it runs Linux, and, most importantly, it is affordable." "Palm compatible" better at least mean painless address-book import.
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Two Handfuls Of Handhelds More

Two Handfuls Of Handhelds

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  • Re: (Score:1, Informative)

    by account_deleted ( 4530225 )
    Comment removed based on user account deletion
    • "Palm compatible", in this case, means "sue me! sue me harder!"
    • My guess -- if it fits in your hands, its 'palm compatible.'

      Hell, I'm eating with my new 'palm compatible' spoon right now!

      • Hell, I'm eating with my new 'palm compatible' spoon right now!


        No, no no. Didn't your parents show you? You are not supposed to eat with your spoon in the palm of your hand. That requires that you grip it with a fist. You're supposed to hold it just in the fingers with the handle resting in the groove between your index and middle finger and the thumb firmly anchoring it against the index finger.


        Sorry. Couldn't resist. I know. I'll get modded down into oblivion.

    • Given that spending literally about twenty seconds on the website revealed that their OS runs on a Palm (see http://www.linuxda.com/store/index.html [linuxda.com]), I think it's a reasonable assumption that you can also upload (albeit with shady legal reprecussions) the Palm OS onto their system. Thus, their handheld is Palm-compatible in the same way that my FreeBSD box is Windows-compatible: the hardware is identical.
  • From the pictures of the PowerPlay III PDA (claims to be "Palm IIIxe Compatible") it looks like maybe it's compatible in that it looks the same.

    Seriously though, it looks like they've created a very small embedded OS based on the Linux Kernel, and written apps that are approximately similar to those available on the Palm. It also looks like they're the same processor and hardware design, so it's quite probably Palm-OS compatible - they're just running their own OS instead.

    There are Screen Shots [linuxda.com] available for apps that look remarkably like the screens on my Handspring running PalmOS.
  • It's compatible with the Palm on your hand, not the Palm on NASDAQ.
  • Well, that's not at all Palm Compatible, but I am assuming that they mean it can sync with stuff that is written to sync with palm software.

  • And it's about time! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by sllort ( 442574 )
    The consumer electronics maker has been selling into a niche in the notebook market by focusing on durable laptops that can withstand the shock of a fall and can resist moisture, dust and scratches.

    It's about time!. The lesson of Palm OS was that the functionality of an Apple ][ was enough for most people. A simple spreadsheet, messaging system, contacts and a notepad are a lot of what makes a computer useful. Bundle that in a low overhead package and make it durable and you've got a winner - what mobile professionals don't need is 300Mhz of super high color whiz-bang screen saver action that can dance along to their portable MP3 collection.

    The value of a robust and simple computing platform over a feature-clogged overpriced china shop of a notebook has been obvious to me for a while. Thank goodness industry is getting the picture.
    • what mobile professionals don't need is 300Mhz of super high color whiz-bang screen saver action that can dance along to their portable MP3 collection.

      Mind if I disagree a tad and take the "middle ground?"

      I think you're going to see the future mobile professionals divided into two or three different camps. There are those who will pretty much use their PDA as a glorified organizer. For these people, any functionality beyond that of an Apple ][ is a complete waste. These are the "Palm Pilot" crowd and they should absolutely stay with what they have.

      But with some upcoming improvements in wireless connectivity, you're really going to see a different class of users. CDPD is almost worthless, but if it's every truly available, 3G wireless promises a lot of additional features, not the least of which is being able to browse the internet. This group of users is going to want color. They will need a faster processor and more memory for some of the internet apps they will run. This same group of people will probably be "married" to their PDA like a salesperson is to their cell phone. They will probably use them in meetings for taking notes.

      However, I agree with you in that a PDA should probably never have all of the features that today's notebooks have. It's just not practical. I don't see the PDA as a replacement for a notebook computer -- I see it as a mobile accessory. I also believe that *right now* people should be buying PDA's more like the Palm. Wait for the next generation of wireless to rear its head before deciding on the future device.

  • Review (Score:3, Informative)

    by Bomb Regardless ( 216103 ) on Monday September 24, 2001 @09:03PM (#2344758) Homepage

    I found a review [linuxcare.ch] of the Palm clone... It seems decent, but not any more. If some of the apps get better, it might work for the vast majority of Palm users who need only a datebook & never install any extra apps (& therefore want it cheap).

  • The real test (Score:1, Insightful)

    by mlknowle ( 175506 )
    Untill I can write on it as fast as I can on paper, untill I can trust it not to fail as much as paper (including being dropped), and the price point is more reasonably, I really don't see how I can justify the price of any PDA... Sure, checking flights wirelessly is cool, but I can do it on the cell phone for far less money now.

    • Re:The real test (Score:2, Insightful)

      by JWhitlock ( 201845 )
      Untill I can write on it as fast as I can on paper, untill I can trust it not to fail as much as paper (including being dropped), and the price point is more reasonably, I really don't see how I can justify the price of any PDA... Sure, checking flights wirelessly is cool, but I can do it on the cell phone for far less money now.

      I'm not big on the bells and whistles either, but I find my vanilla Visor Deluxe to be the best purchase I made in a long time.

      For serious data entry, I type it into the desktop software. 90% of data entry can be done this way, and the other 10% is the stuff I can keep in my head while writing, so it doesn't matter how slow it is.

      I travel a lot, and sometimes have trouble getting onto the facility right after my plane lands. It's been a godsend to have the phone number of every person who has let me on, as well as building numbers and other info that is only useful for getting past security. It's also nice to have the number for that nice hotel I stayed at, so I know where to call when I go back in a year.

      I've found that if I enter the data into my visor everytime I'm tempted to grab a slip of paper, then I'm not asking for info more than once. Phone numbers, IP addresses, user names for different systems, all go in, for easy retrival. I may even use one of the password keepers some day, and start using some real passwords.

      I also love Project Guttenberg. Every time I have five minutes waiting for someone else, I can dig out a classic and read a few pages - and it's a lot easier than always having a paperback in my back pocket.

      I'm not saying one of these is for everyone, but I've needed an appointment book, address book, and note holder for years, and I was never able to keep a huge appointment book. Finally, I can stop buying belated birthday cards!

      I have dropped one, hard, but Visor seems to follow the computer maker's lead, and makes the exchange for a new one pretty painless. All the data is on the desktop, in a less portable form, but I didn't loose everything because of a hardware failure.

      Anyway, it may not be for you, but for me, I was able to throw away 25 lbs of little paper notebooks and aborted attempts at address books - it's worth the cost of 12 AA batteries every year.

      • You know - you *could* always buy a few sets of rechargables. I know they're way handy for me to use. =) I just swap 'em between the TI-83plus for school, the Fuji Finepix 1300 digital camera, and the Palm3XE.

        Now if only I could do the same thing with the cell and the laptop ..

  • agenda vr3... compatible (Score:2, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Well, perhaps it's similar to Agenda Computings VR3 that I own. It's palm compatible in the sense that I can send stuff easily back and forth using IR.

    Coding:
    I hope that it just 'looks' like palmOS, because PalmOS is way harder to code for than my VR3. but it'd be nice to run palm apps.

    Pandora
  • here is yet another sign of the time, the Matsushita/Panasonic's of the world, don't jump into markets unless their market intelligence tells them there's real money to be made there...the overhead of these MegaCorps is so high, "niche" markets are just too expensive for them to play around in...

    SO, the handheld market has just rec'd a ***BIG*** validation as to its future prominence and viabliity.....

    OTOH, PALMOS just got ***ANOTHER*** kick in the butt, i've been alternating between my Vx and my iPaq lately and WinCE has come a long way...(yes, CE took the same type of hit, but CE is only a fractional market player at this point, 12 mos from now?????)

    ANOTHER MARKET INDICATOR; just how about those Panasonic desktop PC's and Windows Notebooks, eh?

    seems like Panasonic has placed its bet...and PalmOS and WinCE were nowhere to be found....

    if anyone takes on Wintel, it will be the Global 100 Megacorps...Panasonic, NEC, NTT, et al...and it will be in a space like handhelds were this is no dominant giant already there???

    with Linux here and quickly evoling as a mid-range platform, ANYBODY'S paid-per-license OS is IMHO, over the mid-to-long term a "wasting asset" in mid-range enterprise computing (the desktop PC is a ho' 'nother story)......
  • I don't quite see the point of the keyboard, since the screen is a touch-screen.

    From my limited experience (mostly playing with pagers at comp-usa), keyboards like this are incredibly annoying to use. Maybe I just have really stubby fingers, or bad aim (if using a stylus/pencil) but I find myself frequently pushing the wrong key, or multiple keys. Not to mention the extra time all that attempting to type on those things uses.

    Does anyone have a device with a keyboard like this and actually find it useful?

    • it's not exactly the same, but I have a Psion Revo+, best $100 I ever spent. Faster than my Visor, bigger screen, and the keyboard you can actually type pretty quickly on. Granted, there's no backlight, but it's a damn shame these didn't catch on in the US the way they did in Europe.

  • Same processor as Palm (Score:4, Funny)

    by Steven Reddie ( 237450 ) on Monday September 24, 2001 @09:23PM (#2344846)
    It has a Motorola Dragonball processor, so it looks like "Palm compatible" means same CPU. My iPaq uses Flash ROM just like my CD burner so I guess they are compatible with each other. If anyone can tell me how to burn CD's on my iPaq I'd really appreciate it.
  • I've dropped my IIIxe a total of 12 times, from 1 foot to 15 feet (scaling a fence :)). Its gone into "self destruct" mode (cover flies off, batteries fly everwhere, battery cover takes a long trip), but no permament damage (screen is still fine, no cracks). I would call that rugged.

    • I've dropped my IIIxe a total of 12 times, from 1 foot to 15 feet (scaling a fence :)). Its gone into "self destruct" mode (cover flies off, batteries fly everwhere, battery cover takes a long trip), but no permament damage (screen is still fine, no cracks). I would call that rugged.

      Much as I've liked the various Palms and Visors that I have owned, you've been lucky. My first Palm III fell two feet onto a hard bathroom floor and cracked its screen. My replacement Palm III never got damaged but I could feel its case flex when I squeezed it enough to know that it would probably suffer the same fate if I dropped it. My Palm IIIc feels a little more rugged as do my Visor Deluxe and Visor Platinum but they aren't very rugged compared to other devices like cell phones.

  • compatibility (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Ravagin ( 100668 ) on Monday September 24, 2001 @09:35PM (#2344891)

    Well, someone is clearly not an obsessive PDA geek.

    Being one myself, however, I'd wager both of my shoes that "PalmIIIxe-compatible" means the body of the device works with III/VII-series peripherals (PalmPix, PPK(ooh), maybe even the various palm robots). Presumably, then, there is also the same kind of serial port. I think this is an excellent move on the manufacturer's part.

    I'd like to note also that in my far from humble opinion, the IIIxe remains the best PalmOS device made by Palm.

  • Research in Motion's Blackberry (950 and 957) are designed to never break. I throw mine against the wall all the time to show people (who all think I'm insane) and they don't have a scratch.

  • Fashion Faux Pas (Score:5, Funny)

    by SubtleNuance ( 184325 ) on Monday September 24, 2001 @09:45PM (#2344921) Journal
    You have got to be kidding [linuxda.com]

    This is why nerds cant pick up in public...

  • They have the absolute worst customer service of any company I've ever dealt with. I have vowed to never again purchase a Panasonic product. BTW, for any of you unfortunate enough to be stuck with some Panasonic equipment, those drivers you've been looking for are most likely hidden away on their Canadian website [panasonic.ca].

    The LinuxDA's Palm compatability refers to hardware, not software. I assume that means you can use Palm accessories such as those cool folding keyboards.

  • I really don't understand Panasonic's stance on selling these handhelds to consumers. Why would it cost them any more to allow consumers to buy this thing (not that I want a $1k PDA) Is that the only reason? The fast that no reasonable consumer (and I know we have some of the unreasonable kind here on slashdot) would pay that price when palms, handsprings, etc sell for so much less and are fairly close to being just as durable?
  • PowerPlay III PDA: 2MB Flash, 8MB RAM, No MMU $89.99

    Agenda VR3: 16MB Flash, 8MB RAM, MMU $249.00

    Agenda has an active developer community, so the software is actively getting better pretty quickly. Does the PowerPlay have any developer program?

    I want more RAM and/or flash for my Agenda, the PowerPlay has much less. So the PowerPlay III isn't going to fill the same niche as my Agenda. But the PowerPlay website says the Flash is expandable, but gives no details.

    I'd like a durable, small, low power embeddable Linux device with a display. Can you connect the PowerPlay to your network and also use some other I/O ports? The Agenda is pretty I/O limited, it also doesn't have a spot for external power (cut a dowel into fake AAA batteries ...).

  • Hardware Compatible (Score:4, Insightful)

    by _Sprocket_ ( 42527 ) on Monday September 24, 2001 @11:55PM (#2345116)
    Since the last article on this device, I've been pondering something simular to the submitted question:
    "They claim it is Palm compatible, but it won't run palm apps - so what 'Palm compatible' means is anyone's guess."
    The only thing I can think of is "Hey, don't like our Linux distro? No problem! Grab a PalmOS image and load it up! Cheap PalmIIIs!" Illegal as they may be.

    Of course, I'm a little hesitant to push that point so much. Sounds far too much like not-so-distant claims from Microsoft that if a whitebox shop didn't pay for a Windows license, they were obviously intending to pirate Microsoft products.


    • The only thing I can think of is "Hey, don't like our Linux distro? No problem! Grab a PalmOS image and load it up! Cheap PalmIIIs!" Illegal as they may be.

      Of course, I'm a little hesitant to push that point so much. Sounds far too much like not-so-distant claims from Microsoft that if a whitebox shop didn't pay for a Windows license, they were obviously intending to pirate Microsoft products.

      This sounds pretty logical. The LinuxDA machine costs about thirty dollars less than the cheapest Palms right now -- although a used Palm III [usedpalmpilots.com] costs the same as a new LinuxDA machine. I don't think that Palm is powerful enough to do what Microsoft has been doing to whitebox manufacturers. In any case, LinuxDA isn't a PalmOS licensee, so Palm wouldn't be able to hold the threat of yanking its OS license over its head the way Microsoft can do with whitebox shops.

      Another possibility is that it can beam and receive information to and from the built-in Palm applications. That would be a form of compatibility. The LinuxDA machine also has a writing area, so another form of compatibility would be the ability to emulate Graffiti strokes.
    • After re-reading my post, I'd like to clarify a point. I don't think its LinuxDA's intent to sell cheap Palms by circumventing PalmOS licensing. And I didn't agree with Microsoft's statement.


      There's some truth in the idea. Certainly, in both cases someone is going to have the grand idea and pirate the OS (Windows and Palm). However, it doesn't remove that in all likelyhood people will put this hardware to legal use - running Linux (or whatnot).


      I just find it kind of interesting to see a simularity between PDA and desktop PC platforms in a very unlikely area.

    • "They claim it is Palm compatible, but it won't run palm apps - so what 'Palm compatible' means is anyone's guess."

      That probably just means it'll fit the average human palm.
  • I got a chance to play with a ToughBook at work, CEO has one (it's good to be the king =). Its kinda chunky, supposedely you can stand on top of it when it is closed. The touchpad feels a little low res. Pretty quick though. And it had a CDPD modem with antenna built in, kinda slick.

    My iPaq holds up ok. From what I've seen the screens get scratched quite a bit. I made screen covers cheap using templates from PocketPCPassion.com [pocketpcpassion.com] and some transparencies from the supply closet (gross misuse of company resources? better post anonymously!).
  • It's obvious to me - and maybe it's been said but not properly moderated. The compatibility is of a physical nature. That is to say, the unit will fit into a wallet made for the palm IIIxe, or a belt clip for the palm IIIxe, etc.

    Being an owner of a palm IIIxe, and spending much too long searching for a good case, made me somewhat close to this fact, so it is actually a good selling point to know that there are cases out there to protect and tote yer handheld in. (although the one pictured is... ugh... seems rather unusable)
  • But if you paid $2000 for a laptop, or $300 for a PDA, wouldn't you take care of the damn thing? I know shit happens, but if it costs 2 large, some, "extra precautions" would probably be in order. . .
    • But if you paid $2000 for a laptop, or $300 for a PDA, wouldn't you take care of the damn thing?


      I agree with you, but also remember that any device you wear or carry around with you constantly needs to be much more rugged than most of today's devices are. The laptop needs to be more rugged than a desktop, but since it's usually in a pretty well padded case, it doesn't need to be nearly as rugged as a cell phone. People take them everywhere they go, and expect them to be able to handle a fall once in a while. The same should be true for PDAs. If they are advertised as "pocket sized" or wearable, people will take that to heart.

    • But if you paid $2000 for a laptop, or $300 for a PDA, wouldn't you take care of the damn thing?

      Sure, but things happen. I had a Visor (palmOS) that fell to the concrete while I was snapping the cover back on. I had been running and my hands were too sweaty. That didn't happen to break it, but it could have. Same one a year later I did manage to break. I had it out to turn off an alarm. I didn't put it back on the coffee table, but left it on the floor instead. The dog came over with a toy and we played a while, and I managed to put my knee on it. Oops, $80 to repair the screen.

      Oh, that doesn't count the time I fell in a hot tub, but I didn't happen to have the PDA on me, just the cell phone...

      If you have the thing with you every day for a large part of the day, it is going to be in a tad bit of danger now and again. It is nice if they are either rugged enough to handle it, or cheap enough to fix/replace when they do get killed.




      Plus, I would love a supper rugged laptop, I could take it into the hot tub and read (photography) news while working out the day's stress (I wouldn't want to read the other kind of news...it increases stress).

  • ...means that their OS will run on a Palm. From their website:

    "We are proud to announce the introduction of our Linux DA O/S v1.0 DB for Motorola Dragonball CPU platform..."

    However, apps written for Palm won't run on their PDA anymore than Windows apps will run on a Linux PC.
  • If the design of the software is to the same standard as the website - annoying popup windows and horrible flashing messages - it is not going to be much use!

    Anyway they don't ship to the UK so that counts me out.
  • Those Symbol Palm based barcode machines are pretty damn tough. But here I have a hard time seeing the value in a $1000 PDA except for the most specialized industrial or military/law enforcement preprogrammed purposes. Sure all that 'throw it off the roof and run it over with the patrol car' shit is neat-o and I'd love a waterproof, shockproof EMP resistant that can operate in subzero temp survive a three story fall and a battery leak but a thousand bucks ??????

    Holy bulletproof little black book Batman !!!
  • Hey look [linuxda.com] - they have an 'arm' clock. That sounds cool. They should put in an analog clock also though.
  • "Panasonic will be using Microsoft's Windows CE 3.0, not Pocket PC."

    They're bringing out a new device with an old OS. Not too bright.
  • That means it will fit in your palm with little modification.
    • That means it will fit in your palm with little modification.

      Shouldn't that be with no modification?

      My cell phone fits in my palm with no modification. My dick fits....
      • Should but it doesn't. My palm pilot was always getting caught between my fingers, slicing my fingertips, and breaking my fingernails off. Or maybe that was my Gerber Woodsman knife. Whatever, they're both good for taking notes.
  • There's a story [newsforge.com] on Newsforge about the LinuxDA device. Their CEO sounds like a jerk. If what the article suggests is true, I certainly wouldn't given them my business.

  • I flashed my Palm IIIxe over the weekend with the demo version of LinuxDA. And it sucks.

    The user interface is horrid. Very cumbersome, very unnatural. The selecting of drop-down items is very un-palm-like. The applications have a certain level of lameness. They need to fix all of these things.

    I also emailed the development guys over at LinuxDA and asked them if they supported a shell environment, telnet, ethernet, TCP/IP, ftp, http... etc.

    Guess what...?

    He said the didn't have it right now. None of it. However, they told me that they are working on a release that has all of the major TCP/IP protocols as well as an ethernet stack, and possibly a compiler. And yes, a shell also.

    So my observation is this: LinuxDA sucks right now. The only real benefits to Linux are its stability, and the ability to 'tweak it how you want'.

    With LinuxDA, you get neither. You basically get a "Palm-like" device that is cumbersome to use at best... with no ability to tweak it or do any kind of networking.
  • on the ILlinois State Police's transition to a wireless solution in their cars. They're all using Panasonic Toughbooks. Unfortunately, the current online issue [destinationcrm.com] is last month's, so Oct. won't be out for a little while. (But in any case it's a great magazine. If you want to stay on top of how companies are using cutting edge products in real world situations they have some great writeups.)
  • Yesterday I dropped my unprotected first generation iBook onto concrete. I did not grip it as well as I should have and it slipped from my grasp, dropping about 3-4 feet and landing rather abruptly, with a disturbing crash, onto the concrete sidewalk. It had been in sleep mode. When I picked it up and opened the case it woke up and worked just fine, aside from a slight marring on the case. Durability is good.

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