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Hardware

Cappuccino PC Round 2 62

Posted by timothy from the still-drinking dept.
Michael Cook writes: "Ars Technica has just posted a follow up to the review of the original Espresso PC (Slashdotted here(1), and here(2)), a review of the new and much-improved Cappuccino PC! It finally has ethernet and now it's truly possible to have a server farm in a bread box!" This is a slightly off-the-wall review of this promising machine, considering (among other things) that the review unit was stolen, but it sure sounds like a worthy non-toy toy.
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Cappuccino PC Round 2 More

Cappuccino PC Round 2

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  • hey y'all. Fan noise isn't everything. The Mac Cube has a really loud hard drive. The Espresso does, too (both are louder than a typical laptop). What you really want are the designed "quiet pcs" that run at 16.5db [captech.se] or 21.5db [armsystems.com] (10db means roughly twice as loud, human whispering is around 12-13db, a typical computer is at least 40db).
  • I'd rather have a cluster of these [intrinsyc.com] little 3"x3"x3" aluminum strongarm-based boxes, made by the kanadian company Intrinsyc. [intrinsyc.com] you could always take handhelds and do similar things... plus they would be more portable.
  • Actually I'm making a small living room PC right now. So far I have I also figure on getting a Pentium III 800 and underclocking to 700Mhz to have it run a little cooler. My aim is to make a family computer that I can close the case to and not have to worry about. ( Also its so small that hopefully I won't be tempted to keep switching hardware in and out every week.) As far as I can tell all the hardware on this maniboard is supported to some extent by Linux, QNX, and BeOS so I should have an easy time making a thin client for my family.

    For those that are interested here are a few other links to small case manufacturers.
    Case Manufacturer listing [osirusonline.com]
    Morex/ProCase [procase.com.tw]
    In Win [in-win.com]
    Yeong Yang [yeongyang.com]

  • These puppies really bring out the geek in me, but I'm not sure exactly where the practical side is. I understand the need to save space, but you don't need to get THAT small.

    Actually, these are the perfect size for home or small office firewall type machines, which you *want* to be as small and unobtrusive as possible. The only problem is that with only one ethernet port, they're not much use for that...

  • Since when did a firewall need two ports?

    Without two ports, you can't do things like block malicious broadcasts from the outside world.

  • I know anecdotal evidence is pretty worthless, but I've had an Espresso running for a couple of weeks continuously. It was only acting as a VPN gateway so there probably wasn't much disk activity, but it stayed up and running and it didn't have to be immersed in liquid nitrogen or anything.
  • Oh, that was unintentional. :-) I make that error all the time, too.

    Worse yet, I often write HTTP protocol.

    ------------------
  • I understand the need to save space, but you don't need to get THAT small.

    I can think of quite a few applications for this device. As a commuting freelancer, it'd be a full portable workstation and still be easier to store and carry than a similar laptop.

    But more interesting is something I read on Slashdot a while ago. Someone used these boxes for presentations on exhibitions, sticking them right behind the LCD screen. (I have been doing such presentations, too, and with a full size computer, setting up the exhibition booth is a true pain.)

    Maybe somebody will turn one of these puppies into a time-shifting video recorder?

    It'd be nice, but the device lacks a video-in and I doubt that there is a decent video-in using USB.

    ------------------
  • better yet get a twiddler from handykey.com and use a monicle display from liquid-image.

    If you'd like either let me know I've used mine for 3 years now... Wearable computers are fun but just a niche..

    Me? I have to have a super killer (read 64-128meg 3d video card) read audio (SB live or a good turtle beach audio card) and the ability to upgrade. (ram and hard drive would be enough)

    until these manufacturers make them with easy to remove hard drives, easy to add ram, and put in high quality components instead of the crappiest quality prephrials they can get they wont sell except to those buying them as toys.
  • I know what I'd want such a device for: live hard disk recording. I'd plug in a PCI 24-bit sound card, and lug it down to the bar where I'm playing, and plug it into the mixing board.

    Of course, these things don't support PCI, but maybe the next model will offer a single PCI slot. . .
  • Why doesn't this thing have a firewire interface?

  • True. A single PCI slot would open the door of possibilities for the device (Firewall, Live Audio recorder, Time-Shifted Video recording, etc.)

    Of course will it be too big then?

    Maybe instead of a PCI slot they need to add two standard PCMCIA slots. There are lots of cards out there that would be available, and they'd just need to put a fan above it to keep the temperature down (they tend to get real hot which might preclude server use though). Hmmm
  • Not only is it not well-equipped for this sort of thing, but it's nearly an order of magnitude more expensive than some of the small embedded boards that have multiple Ethernets. This sort of thing is available from several SBC vendors for $200-$600, with two or three Ethernets thrown into the bargain. (Sorry, don't have the URLs handy now, but they're out there - look around...)

    And, of course, most USB Ethernet adapters don't perform all that well, which could make them OK for connecting to the Ethernet port on your Cable or DSL box, but not much else.
  • Although the packaging is impressive, it's not a very good deal, especially considering that you can buy a more capable laptop for less money, and get the LCD screen and a 3-hour UPS in the bargain.

    I've working in the laptop business, and despite what some here have said, the good ones are indeed built for 24x7 use. I began putting servers on laptop hardware with Novell back in 1994, and for light duty server use, I still prefer laptop hardware to "regular" PC servers. Let's face it folks, it just doesn't take much horsepower to run a basic firewall, file server, mail server, and DNS server. (I recommend e-smith for this sort of thing if you want a good open-source "appliance" approach to the basic office server needs.)

    I've run several laptop and laptop-derived servers for years now (I have an old Toshiba Libretto hopped up with a 6.4 GB disk that I use as a portable file server), and they are invariably *more* reliable than the desktop PC hardware I have, which tends to flake out every few months due to bad connections or the phase of the moon.

    I like this box, it just doesn't make much sense to buy one, given that you can get a comparable laptop (and probably, an extra hard disk to go with it, so you can turn it back into a "regular" laptop for trips in a minute or two) for about the same money. And don't underestimate the importance of that built-in UPS if you're looking to use it as a server of any kind...
  • I've had a Toshiba Libretto running continuously as a server for a couple of years now. As I remark elsewhere, I find laptop hardware to be *more* reliable than desktop hardware by a considerable margin. It pretty much has to be, if you think about it.

    Heat isn't that much of a problem if you avoid a few of the worst pre-Mobile Pentium room heaters, since laptops are expected to work out on oil rigs in the summer heat of the Amazon, west Texas, or worse yet, southern Louisiana. I find most desktop hardware problems are related to flakey connectors/connections - that doesn't happen nearly as often in laptop hardware, since they're designed to withstand reasonable mechanical abuse. The only real downside is if you need to plug in PCI cards, although a surprising number of the "name brand" laptops offer docking stations that make this an option. A few are even reasonably priced.

    I've used laptops in co-lo facilities to save $$$ back before 1U servers were common - the "real estate" savings more than offset the incremental cost, and gave me an effective density about twice that of 1U servers. The packets really don't care if it's a laptop, and you've got the added benefit of a console for each unit when you actually need to lay hands on the hardware. (Granted, this was driven by a rock-bottom budget, but it worked so well I'd consider the approach in other circumstances now - especially now that 100 Mb Ethernet is so widely available on the motherboard.)

    Think twice before you write laptops off for this sort of thing - they may work out much better than you think...
  • Geez, relax. I think it was a joke.

  • It's really quite unfortunate that there's not at least an option for a battery. If it had one of those, I can think of some totally awesome applications. For instance, a truely portable, full computer comes into mind. (It'd be slicker if it had 802.11 instead of plain ol' boring ethernet, though. *sigh*)

    Take this baby, slap on an optional 4 (or so) hour battery, give it 802.11, and I'd be willing to shell out the very-expensive price for the baseline system. I don't even have half that much money right now to my name, but I'd find the funds for it. I know I certainly wanted to get one of the Espressos. Yum.

    The perfect peripherals would consist of a pair of LCD glasses (I've seen them here and there - pretty exhorbinant, but I'd say worth it with one of these puppies). For input, you could get something like a split keyboard, or one of those black IBM Model M keyboards that have the eraser pointing device that is stereotypical of IBM laptops. I personally think a split keyboard, with each half velcro'd around your upper thighs would be the best place to have it. For an independent pointer, you could quite possibly get away with something like a modified optical mouse on your stomach.... put it in a type of coral to keep it from falling off, but not hindering your use... putting a switch on the keyboard somewhere to turn input on or off would be a good idea, too. (such as most CD player's "Hold" feature.)

    As far as the actual device, that could go in a small padded (and ventelated) fabric bag on your lower back (not upper back, so as to avoid causing back pain). Under one's arm on their side would also be a good, out of the way, place to have it, allowing someone to transit on a subway, etc, giving you more comfort and the device more security. (if you're wearing a 'trench coat' or equivilant, nobody would even know it's there.

    To bed with me, argg!

    -------
    Caimlas

  • I hope it complies with RFC 2324 (Hyper Text Coffee Pot Control Protocol (HTCPCP/1.0)).

    http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2324.txt

  • Reliability (Score:4)

    by chrysalis ( 50680 ) on Friday June 22, 2001 @12:05AM (#133434) Homepage
    These boxes are very cute. So small, so powerful. But is it really ok to have them run 24/24h for a server ?
    Laptops aren't designed to run 24/24h. Too much heat, components designed to be small, not very resistant, ...
    As these boxes are looking like a laptop without screen, I'd like to know whether it's really possible to use them in a server farm, running 24/24h.
  • It's kind of ironic that he had the tiny computer stolen. If it had been a huge tower, then they probably wouldn't have stolen it. See! All those cables and the heavy case and heatsink are features!

  • The point? (Score:4)

    by sometwo ( 53041 ) on Friday June 22, 2001 @01:18AM (#133436)
    Now, lest anyone get confused, this thing has to be plugged into a wall. It's not a laptop, so there's no battery.

    I can see the point of small, portable computers, but if this has to be plugged into a power socket somewhere, what makes this better to own or use than a laptop, palmtop or even a desktop PC?
  • Actually, the first thing I thought when I saw this thing was "SET TOP BOX!"

    DVD Player, Living Room PC/Console, Browsing the web from my living room, etc. etc.

    This thing has a wide variety of uses as a PC in non-traditional PC places (such as above the Livingroom TV.)

    It ALMOST reaches an asthetic quality capable of being such a device, and by "ALMOST" I don't mean it's exactly unattractive but then, that's purely subjective anyway.

    What I mean is - who wants a device sitting on top of their TV that has cords plugged into it on 3 of the 4 sides?

    TV, mouse, and keyboard cables on one side, sound and ethernet on the other, and USB ports in the back... the port layout is just horrid!

    I could understand maybe if the USB ports were on the front or sides, but the rest really needs to hang out of the back like any other device found on an entertainment center.

    Awe well...

    "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"
  • Or a G4 cube...also no fans, and almost as small as the cappuccino, though more expensive. You get the same "cool" factor from a cube as well, I think (just as long as you don't have a cappuccino and a cube next to eachother, then the capp. wins hands down =).

    These things are making my drool at work right now...
    ---

  • Someone else mentioned it already, but using this for presentations with a flat-panel screen would be impressive as hell, and a lot easier to set up and transport than even a laptop (in some cases). Granted, a laptop is already a flat-panel and pc in one, but laptops are more expensive, especially if you want a larger screen.

    Another great use is sticking this in your living room for an mp3 server or something (for the silent factor and space savings) or using it for a firewall/gateway at home (for space savings as well). Not everyone is geeky enough to want a tower in every room =)

    I'm also sure that you wouldn't have to look too far to find a corporate exec-type that wouldn't want one for the cool factor as well, not to mention any other worker who's strapped for space in the office.

    And just imagine a beowulf cluster of these taking up the space of one tower! =) (sorry for that...)
    ---

  • "All those cables and the heavy case and heatsink are features!"

    The cables are still there with these; this isn't a laptop. Just thought that should be kept in mind...
    ---

  • The Cocoa API is essential for any cappuccino machine
  • Not sure where you got $1300. It looks like $1100 to me. When you compare it to other similarly sized boxes w/ the same HP, it seems reasonable.
    For $1300, you can bump the cpu up to a PIII 933, or add 128mb of ram and 10gb of disk...

    Right tool for the right problem, maybe you just don't have a Cappuccino problem;P
  • I said similarly sized (as in less than cubic foot)
  • excuse me, less than 1/27 of a cubic foot.
  • Seriously, this thing is nice but an Apple Cube would make more sense for me. It's got FireWire, is 802.11 ready and has got a better graphics card at about the same price. And no, I don't really care if the Cube will be discontinued or the G4 runs only at 450.
  • you could use an iMac... no fans

    I used to be a Mac bigot, but now that multiple distros support PPC, I can seriously look at an iMac as an option for ultra quiet servers. Sure, it's ide, but no fans... no noise at all other than the hard disc access.

  • don't know if that would make a good server... wave your hand over the top of it and it turns off :)
  • I suggest LCD display as follows: Unless I misinterpreted, the box doesn't have a serial port. So we have to get a little creative:
    1. Get the Cappucino.
    2. get a USB hub.
    3. Install linux on it.
    4. Get a linksys usb ethernet adapter.
    5. get this usb serial adapter [provantage.com].
    6. Get the serial LCD 2x16 display from JDR Microdevices [jdr.com]. In the components section, they have one that attaches to a serial port.
    7. Install USB support, and then configure the serial port and use setserial to get things going.

    You might have to write a little code to make it work, but it should be relatively simple writes to the /dev/ttySx device.

    The beauty of using the cappucino would allow me to do this but using double-stick tape and tacking it all on the back side of my door and run wires out through the peephole to the outside of the door where I mount the LCD.
    3 little boxes (cappucino, usb hub, LCD serial interface) stuck to the door, and a few cables, with the power and cat5 cords coming down from above, with enough slack to allow the door to open...

    Seems like a reasonable project, and would allow me to program the display over the network from my main server.

    Voila! A personal electronic bulletin board!
    And the idle cpu cycles on the cappucino could be used for something more interesting, say SETI or distributed.net processing...

  • I have no use for this device at all but I know I don't currently have one therefore I must need it.

    It's like that time I bought a chainsaw...
    ---

  • A GREAT machine if you are not a gamer (Score:3)

    by wulffi ( 176311 ) on Friday June 22, 2001 @12:54AM (#133450) Homepage
    This is just what I have been looking for, a small slim almost silent machine that could be placed in my living room.

    Lets face it, towers and desktop cases won't cut it when it comes to moving computers from the workroom into other parts of the house.

    And it even runs Linux, yum yum espresso...

    Naish

  • I think a good market for this would be the LAN party... you only have to velcro it to a screen and (aside from cables) you're all set. However without at least a GeForce2, or maybe a Kyro2, its worthless for 3d games.

    Now what I'd really like to see is one of these based around something like a nForce chipset. That should allow greater performance (esp. graphics!) while keeping it small.

    I wonder if it has one of those Kensington security lock slots...
  • All this for $1000-2000 depending on how much power you want.
    ---
  • Some similar pc [tweakers.net] with cd (in dutch)
    this ,atoz-ezgo PC [atoz-ezgo.com.tw] seems more to the job because it has integrated ethernet and a integrated cd.

    Some other people wrote a concern about heat. This thing has a (patented) special head spreader, very much like how a F1 race car.

    I know is already for sale [accell.nl] in the netherlands. It is not cheap.... .

  • Yeah, base it on nForce, or even keep the current sound, but toss on a Radeon or GeForce2 graphics chipset (actually, even a G450 would be fast enough for some gaming)...
  • I thank you for not using the phrase "LCD display." I applaud you, sir.
  • Looks similar (may be the same as) "The Tardis" which is being sold by Pangolin Small Computers [pangolinsm...ters.co.uk] not found a price yet though :-)
  • Its small - not portable... If I lived in a 3x3 hut it would rock, otherwise??? I must be missing something. Or I am right and the Cappuccino can say hello to all the internet appliances when it hits the scrap heap.
  • Since it even says Cappuccino on the picture (only the small one, seems to be edited out on the big one, but there is a blurred effect where it would be to show that it was done on computer, and not very well) I'd say it's pretty likely to be the same thing.. =)
  • The Cappuccino has serial, but never mind.

    Why not just run the serial over the cat5 cable and skip buying another computer all together? Unless "serial" for the LDC really means something like a complete RS232 (and I doubt that) there should be more than enough wires in cat5 (probably only uses gnd, power and one data)..

  • Laptops aren't designed to run 24/24h. Too much heat, components designed to be small, not very resistant, ...

    speak for yourself. my powerbook g3 is running mostly 24 hr days and has been doing so for the last 3 years
  • been there, done that, and it doesnt even have the looks of the cube [apple.com]

    youre right. desktops have expandability and low price, this has neither. laptops have portability, and without a screen and battery, this doesnt have much of that. apples cube didnt sell well either

    despite claims that it would be good for presentations or an mp3 jukebox, i dont see it. presentation rooms have builtin projectors, etc and outside a room you are going to want a builtin screen. and with networked houses, there is no need to have the computer sitting next to the soundsystem or the er watcher. get a laptop instead, for the price youll get a screen too

  • Cappuccino? (Score:3)

    by morie ( 227571 ) on Friday June 22, 2001 @12:07AM (#133462) Homepage
    Longing for cafeine, I clicked the link.

    My mistake, I guess

  • From the article... (Score:4)

    by FastT ( 229526 ) on Friday June 22, 2001 @12:40AM (#133463) Homepage Journal
    ...you'd have a powerful, space saving desktop machine with ten times the sex appeal of any beige box. And there's the added bonus that you can easily pack it up and take it with you.
    Of course, this was also exactly why it was so easy to steal. After having my computer stolen in the past, I can safely say that when it comes to desktop machines, I prefer them large, unwieldy, and bolted to the floor.
  • The person who stole the first Cappuccino PC is the same person who stole that very large screen that was at Comdex.

    That's right - he's going to watch his espresso being made, in full living color, on a really big screen.

    Ah, now that's a good cup of coffee ...

  • does it make coffee for me or not?

    no coffee, no life, know coffee, know life!
  • Its a neat little box, but it is not cheap! The barebones system (Celeron 700 128MB, 10GB HD, CD, Win ME) was like $1300! The top level box 1GHz PIII, 256MB, 30GB HD, DVD Rom, WIn 2K Pro) was almost $1900!

    I realize its a really small box - no question and packs a lot into a small space, but for substandard video and sound it seems a bit over priced. I mean the Beowulf cluster alone would cost more than a car :) :)

    But seriously, cool box but a bit pricey for my tastes. I'll take my butt ugly !GHz Athlon beige box anyday (cause it has LCD displays on each SCSI drive - and like the review said LCDs are just too cool :) :) )

  • Beats me - I know when I checked it this morning it was like $1270 something - maybe they changed the price.

    But regarding $1300 or $1100 for a similar system, um, just look at their main page:

    Today's Special (1): AMD Athlon 900 Mhz System: $459.00
    includes: Athlon T-Bird 900Mhz CPU, 256MB PC133 RAM, 30GB UDMA-100 HDD, 32MB nVidia RIVA TNT2 Video, 12x DVD-ROM, 3D Stereo Sound, 120W Stereo Speakers and more

    SO no, not all similarly priced systems in that horsepower range ARE $1300 or even $1100 :)

  • Really cool, but... (Score:3)

    by GreyPoopon ( 411036 ) <gpoopon@gm[ ].com ['ail' in gap]> on Friday June 22, 2001 @12:21AM (#133468)
    These puppies really bring out the geek in me, but I'm not sure exactly where the practical side is. I understand the need to save space, but you don't need to get THAT small. In general, laptop size is fine. Besides, you can't plug any cards into them. (Oh, that's right, USB is supposed to eliminate the need for internal cards, right?)

    I did think of one possible application: Such a device might be a good addition to my laptop. If I carried it along, I could use it as a small server to properly test those applications that require truly separate client and server machines. I could probably also store all of my less-used downloads on it, given that it has more storage capacity than my laptop.

    Maybe somebody will turn one of these puppies into a time-shifting video recorder? That would be totally cool, but still too expensive.

    GreyPoopon
    --

  • Actually, these are the perfect size for home or small office firewall type machines, which you *want* to be as small and unobtrusive as possible. The only problem is that with only one ethernet port, they're not much use for that...

    Also, they're probably a bit too expensive (at least for the home firewall). I dunno, maybe I'm just too cheap. For use as a firewall, maybe you could use both the ethernet port, and a USB -> Ethernet adaptor for the other?

    GreyPoopon
    --

  • A cross-compiler is available (it's called gcc :)). Porting between architectures shouldn't be that much of a problem.

    As we are talking about diskless machines, I would only need to burn a CD for each machine. As for the falling of computer prices, the only thing I've heard that can compare in price to a computer is thinknic [thinknic.com] at $199.99 and that's not easily available to me (I'm not in the US).

  • I'm starting to look for solutions for a home made cheap cluster. My first idea was to use game consoles .They seem to all be getting linux support (PS2 and Dreamcast) or to be PC based (X-Box and Nokia's media terminal). Anyone tried this ?
  • s for the falling of computer prices, the only thing I've heard that can compare in price to a computer is thinknic at $199.99 and that's not easily available to me (I'm not in the US). You can actually buy a p200(the chip, not the computer itself) for only a few bucks. You can buy an E-machine for $299.99 w/o monitor. You could buy a $120 mobo with a NIC and old processor, add 64 megs($30) and a floppy drive(for bootable linux) for $20, no case and you can easily build a cluster of your own design. Not the recommended route, but possible. As for the cross-compiler, I know GCC is a cross-compiler but I don't think it supports playstation Architecture. I think you might have to buy the kit in order to get the compiler.
    ----
  • I haven't tried it but I've thought about it. The problem lies with having differnet architectures is you have a binary for each one. No one wants to do it that way so you're going to need a server(preferably something that is easily upgradeable like a PC) that stores binaries for each different machine and some type of ethernet card for every single one of them. This might be a viable solution because Sony and Dreamcast(very cheap, $99) sale hardware at below cost. The problem lies in the fact that you have to have a cross-compiler on your server and last time I've heard, they were not cheap(correct me if I'm wrong.) You also have the 32mb memory problem in the PS2 and the fact that computer prices are falling much faster then the price/ps2. In the long run, you're probably best setting up a cluster of x86s. You won't be quite as limited in the years to come.
    ----
  • There are several PCs in a "book" or "no legacy" form factor: smaller than your standard desktop PC, but a bit larger than the Cappucino. Compaq offers something like that under their iPaq line, HP has recently come out with something, and you can configure some Dell machines like that. Smaller companies also offer a variety of machines like that. Often they do actually have one PCI slot, which is what you frequently need for small special servers.

    A quick search on Google turned up this [directron.com] and this [btc.com.tw].

  • I have a couple similar PCs from another Taiwanese company called Flytech http://www.flytech.com.tw/product-1.htm . Much cheaper as it is a bit (not much) larger and can take standard sized components. I use one as an e-smith server and another as a portable RedHat server for demos. Very nice. I also have a version that has 2 PCI slots, which have come in handy. I never have found anyone that will sell onesy-twosey though, you have to buy qty through the manufacturer (I got mine from an OEM friend).

  • Cappuccino...espresso... (Score:4)

    by return 42 ( 459012 ) on Thursday June 21, 2001 @11:45PM (#133476)
    So, these are some kind of Java machines?
  • Spot on. The biggest problems with modern PCs are Noise, Size and Ugliness. I only bought a notebook so I would be allowed to use it in the lounge while my lady watches ER.
    A 'proper' machine is too big, noisy, ugly and hard to hide. A notebook can be tucked away on the bookshelf when not in use and doesn't need stacks of space to operate.
    And in our small 4 man office where we have 5 machines running the noise is a real problem. I've swapped 2 machines to notebooks to reduce the noise - but having something this quiet as server would be great!
    Anyone found any other machines that are quiet, small, and able to operate 24hrs?

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