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Handhelds Hardware

PDAs, PDAs 123

Posted by michael from the stuff-to-lose dept.
isaac writes: "The cat is out of the bag! Palmstation has photos of the new PalmOS pda from Handera (formerly TRG of TRGPro fame). Features include a 320x240 screen with "soft" grafitti area, CompactFlash *and* SD slots, and Voice Recording. No word yet on built-in RAM or other capabilities - an official launch at Handera's website is rumored for Monday. The alleged name of this device is the "HandEra 330". Wish they'd do something about the name." There's also a combination PDA/phone that looks interesting.
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PDAs, PDAs

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  • You can back a PDA up.

    Really, there are many reasons, but that one stands head and shoulders above the rest.
    --
  • Why don't you just get a laptop then? You must have ogre-sized hands if you think the V is "small". Personally I want a PDA the size of a credit card.. maybe a little thicker, but running PalmOS. I want to keep it in my shirt pocket without looking like an ubergeek.
  • Palm's not trying to be the "do-all, be-all" device that the Newton (and some other *cough*CE*cough* handhelds) have tried to become. It is designed to have a specific set of tasks which it does well, with some room for expansion, but Palm and the other makers of devices using PalmOS (IMO) understand that that is the mistake that will kill the PDA market - trying to be too overzealous, and doing too much in such a small device (and then just doing SO much of what it tries to do either not so well or just plain badly).
    _____
  • The problem with a combination phone and PDA is that half the time when I want to write something down, someone's telling it to me over the phone. I don't want to have to take someone's address and phone number down by pulling the phone away from my ear every few numbers...

    The Qualcomm PDQ has that problem, I expect a lot of people use the little headsets. The Visor Phone (I forget the real name) requires (I think) use of a headset.

    Regrettably the headsets are either too bulky to carry (the ones with a mic boom), or don't sound that great (ones like Jabrea's with the in-ear mic). Both kinds are uncomfortable to me, and both take time to put on. They also seem to do worse in a noisy environment (a convertible with the top down).

    Also, I would be very reluctant to loan (or borrow!) a phone where the head set was the only thing that worked.

  • The analogies of the PDA to the PCs (and laptops) of 10 to 15 years continues, both in terms of clock speed and ram. The only major differance is the apparent lack of storage space (maybe I didn't look hard enough) conpared to the old PCs.

    It has a compact flash slot. A 32M (Lexar) Compact Flash is under $100 from my local computer store. Let's see 15 years ago, in 1986... I owned a 512K 8Mhz 68000 Atari ST. During 86 I saved up for a whole summer, and finally my dad gave me an extra $200 and I bought a $650 20MEG hard drive (it was a SCSI drive with a SCSI to ATSI converter).

    So I would say they aren't too far off on mass storage. Of corse I think the more expensive Macs of the era came with hard disks, same with the PCs. Programs were still pretty small, most fit one one or at least a few floppy disks.

    Displays are still a bit behind though.

  • With the PDQ 6035 you can also use the voice memo feature to record -both sides- of a conversation.

    That's pretty cool. My Samsung SCH 3500 has a record feature as well, but I never tryed it (except for memos which it does when you are not on a call).

    I do recall the instructions saying it may be illegal to use it in some states though (some states require both parties in a phone conservation to agree to recording, other require only one).

    As always, I'm not a lawyer, so don't rely on me for legal advice.

  • If the CPU can't handle it, put in a decoder chip for MP3. Shouldn't be too expensive.

    If I could buy a CF MP3 decoder for the Handera, I'd buy it in a flash.

    Sadly, CompactFlash seems to be relegated to just storage.

    Jon Acheson
  • licensing fees for one and multi-tasking for another. Granted your question could also be directed right at Microsoft and WinCE. I mean pushing an elephant into a VW and still expect to have some form of enjoyable ride is just dumb. Microsoft has its monopoly to protect though. Linux scales far better then WinCE and there are alot of developers out there.

    I hope Sharp does a nice job with their PDA.
  • Good points and links. I think they, Handera, are making a good move. The Palm III is the largest market segment out there but the Visor and Palm V series are slowly growing. Think of all the business's with Palm III's and peripherals not having to give that up now that Palm has discontinued the III series and Handera exists. It's still flash upgradable too!

    All and all this is a good move for everyone.

    LoB
  • then YOU should get a pager device ( blackberry? ). I think the poster was looking for something he didn't have to hold to his face to see. I too think the smaller screen on the M series is annoying.

    Everyone has their needs and wants and I can tell you that a credit card sized display isn't something I want to put my shopping lists, calendar info and drawing apps on. The Palm III series of display size is just right IMHO. A large portion of the market seems to think the same way but that doesn't mean EVERYTHING should be that size. Competition is always good for consumers.

    IMHO
  • Come on now, WinCE platform shooting up? The iPaq is the only WinCE machine selling well and there are way too many dead bodies in "the road behind" of WinCE developers and manufacturers to think a slight uptick is a full blown come-from-behind win. People buy PDA's for various reasons and most seem to want something simple, fast, instantly on, reliable, small, and reasonable priced. Palm devices in the $150-$300 range fit that need. There's a market for fat devices like WinCE products and higher end Palm devices for the exec's but most go for the M100, Visor, M105/IIIx products.

    Putting expansion capabilities into the device is far better then bolting it all in a product an expecting everyone to take it/pay for it. Therefore WinCE devices will stay in the fringes because Microsoft knows only how to bloat products with feature after feature. They have a eating disorder and must consume everything. IMO. Palm licensies haven't been that dumb yet and this new device just adds a ton of expandability with major backwards compatability with existing hardware and software.

    LoB
  • Those are fringe devices for those people with Palm apps who want some pizzaz. These won't overtake the market but will make some good profits for the maker. Some might even buy these as first-time buyers but not many IMO.

    They are another frill managers can show off but still be compatible with the worker-bee's applications. With PalmOS having 80/90 percent marketshare coming into a Palm-based environment with a WinCE device would be only for the isolationists out there. IMHO

    LoB
  • Check out Magcom [magcom.no], a norwegian company that makes a pda/phone thingy.
  • I already use my TRGpro as a Gameboy emulator. Thanks to AutoCF and my 128MB CF card I found the limit on Liberty's menu is 32 titles. I have about 45 loaded on the card at the moment.

    My poor bank account. No job and a new TRGpro. Well, maybe the lack of colour (I have a PalmPix) will help me put off this upgrade...

    --

  • Heck, most digital cameras will output a video signal and can have images loaded onto them. The last slide-show-style presentation I gave was done on a Fujifilm Mx-2700.

    --

  • The Liberty emulator gives your access to commercial-grade games, but you need a lot of CPU power. If you want decent controls, buy a palm gamepad [palmgamepad.com]. I got a batch on spec but they dropped the price on me. If any Australians want to help me get rid of my last ten, e-mail me.

    --

  • Is it just me, or does "Handera" sound like a porn star?

    -
  • Oh, OK, thanks, I was wondering.

    -
  • The only thing that would tempt we to get a PDA is if I could have easy wireless shell access to telnet to a UNIX box wherever I go.

    I have done this on two seperate PDA's. My old Palm V with an Omnisky CDPD modem (19.2k, supported in most digital cell areas), and my Compaq iPaq Handheld with a PCMCIA CDPD modem. One of the reasons I moved to the iPaq was it's ability to use PCMCIA cards, so my laptop could also have CDPD without 2 monthly charges or a cable hack to the Novatel model Omnisky used on the Palm V.

    And for ultimate server control, the iPaq now can interface with the Remote Insight Lights Out boards Compaq sells as options for their servers. So, from the iPaq you can telnet into your UNIX box, and if for some reason that fails, connect to the RIBLOE and see whats wrong (access to hardware failure logs, ability to power cycle the machine, etc...)

  • HandEra doesn't sound as goofy as Palm Pilot first did to me.

    When somebody first told me they got a Palm Pilot, I thought they were talking about a masturbatory aid.
  • When I first found out that I would be getting a Palm Pilot (my girlfriend leaked it as a birthday present idea), my first response was "Whoopee! A new toy!- and that's all I expected to be doing with it.

    It is now irreplaceable as a work tool.

    Grafitti is impossible when you look at it, possible after 5 minutes, and useable after 10. After 2 years with my Palm, it's second nature.

    Although I am drooling over the voice recording feature of the HandEra device, for quick notes I use a freeware scribbling program called DiddleBug. One press of the (reassigned) memo button, and it's up and displaying a new, blank sheet for me to jot the phone number or whatever.

    I don't know what gave you the impression that Palms are only useful for tracking appointments. I use mine for scheduling/ contact management, sure; but also for email, drafting of letters, project management, budgeting/ shopping plans... whatever.

    One of my colleagues has a Psion, and they are really nice devices; another has a PocketPC; but I'd trade neither for my palm.

  • For the cost conscious, there are $150 Palm m105's.

    For those of us willing to spend a *bit* more, there is quite a range of choices that still significantly undercut either PocketPC or Psion.

    Remember- you seem to quite underestimate what the Palmcan do, so it's no wonder that you find the Palm too dear for it's function...

    The PalmOS is almost primitive in it's appearance, but- guess what? It works well.

    I do agree that Grafitti is no replacement for a good keyboard when entering text in bulk, but for that purpose I have a Go!Type keyboard.

    Most of the time, though, I'm just entering a few words, and for that Graffiti is fine.

    Chacun a son gout...
  • Again, different strokes for different folks.

    I assumed that you hadn't investigated the possibilities because you said that Palms were (can't remember the exact words) basically organisers, and that you wanted more function. As I know that such function exists, I assumed that you had not been exposed. Now I know that the functionality was simply not to your taste!

    I hated QED myself, got SmartDoc, will soon switch to WordSmith for the formatting if the QuickOfice update doesn't come soon.

    I have acquaintances who use Palms as one of the main access points to huge databases. (OK, expensive TRG Pro's, but still Palm OS devices)

    I certainly am looking forward to having the memo recorder, but for now the bitmap note taker suits me just fine. The point is that it's quick! A friend of mine has a little Sharp voice memo device, and he is only marginally faster...

    Why did you find the lack of a "proper" filesystem frustrating? If you wanted to fiddle, what prevented you from fiddling with the database structures and flags that the PalmOS uses? I have been called a geek myself, and what you describe sounds suspiciously like geeking only for the familiar!

    I use the Go!Type keyboard, which is larger and bulkier than the newer folding one, but has the advantage of being *very* easily used on my lap. That's the place I usually rest it!

    The Revo and the V/Vx are not real competitors, any more than Humvee and Porsche are. Perhaps that example is a bit exaggerated, but the Revo, while small and sleek, is much, much larger than the Vx. Indeed, the Vx had no real competitor until the introduction of the Visor Edge- those who wanted the advantages of the Vx had nowhere else to turn!

    The advantage of having a keyboard separate from my device is that the device alone is smaller! So when I know I won't be using the keyboard, I don't have to travel with the extra bulk.

    The Psion family of machines remains an excellent choice for many. When I was thinking of buying one for my girlfriend (who took longer to settle into Grafitti than I did, though she's fine with it now) it didn't seem to be worth (for her or me) the US$150 premium that it had then over a Palm IIIx.

    So; I agree with you that Psion is an eminently sensible choice. I remind you, though, that the reason for your inability to see the reason for someone else choosing a Palm may lie more in your prejudiced views than in the merits or failures of the device.

  • When I say that the Psion and the Vx are not in direct competition, I mean that most of the people who are willing to spend the bucketloads of dollard that the Vx costs are spending those dollars for it because it is tiny.

    "Also fairly small" is not going to satisfy them. The telling phrase there is "this is not an issue"... it may not be for you, but it is very much an important issue for many.

    Indeed, a more important issue than memory and screen resolution for droves...

    Trust me, I've been through this with prospective buyers.

    You, my friend, are an exception.

    I will grant you, however, that they are both handhelds and thus will be in competition to some degree!

    I've read enough horror stories to agree that the plastic digitiser of the Palm m105 was probably a good idea, but I guess we've been lucky up to now- both screens are intact.

    Again, though, I'll say- I'm able to see that the Psion is a sensible, valid choice, and I wonder why you cannot see why the choice of so many Palm aficionados (not only the blind fashion-followers!) might be a sensible choice also- for some...

  • Doesn't help matters that Palm let itself be pressured into announcing its new lines prematurely, and now has to drop prices on its current Palms [writingonyourpalm.net] to try to lure people into buying them now instead of waiting for the new ones to come out.
    --

  • No, Palm only realizes that they're fucked. They just don't know what they can do about it, so they thought that being more PocketPC like would be a start. It's not going to help. Palms are fine for limited tasks, so there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to make money targetting that market, but everytime you see something Palm-based (except for phones) which is either over $250 or has a color screen, it's just a harsh reminder of how limited these are to PocketPCs. Which probably explains why the marketshare for PocketPCs is shooting up, while Palm's is going down while they're having financial problems and firing workers. Oh, and looks like Toshiba just announced that they're getting into the PocketPC game, too. Cool.


    Cheers,

  • Yes, shooting up, and the iPaq isn't the only one selling well — and its sales aren't nearly as strong as they would be if their factories could keep up with the demand for them. As of December 2000, Casio's models were selling at a clip of 9.7% of the U.S. PDA market. The iPaqs weren't near that because of the supply problem, even though its the PDA with all the buzz right now. In Europe, the iPaq and HP models alone accounted for 31% of the PDA market (and that's up from 18% that WinCE PDAs were getting at the beginning of 2000, if you really don't believe that their sales are shooting upward), with Palms dropping down to 51% (can you say "Netscape, part deux"?).

    Meanwhile, Palm is sitting on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of inventory that they can't sell, are planning on losing money this quarter, and are about to fire 10 to 15 percent of their workers. Like I said, at cheap prices, there's no reason why they shouldn't continue to sell well, because not everybody needs all the features of a PocketPC. The problem with that is that there's not much profit margin to be made on those models. To get bigger profits, their prices are going to need to be closer to PocketPCs, at which point people compare what each can do and pick the one without all the limitations of the Palm. Oh, and I wouldn't get too confident about Palm licensees just yet — Handspring was very close to dumping the Palm platform for their future models, and Sony is still considering it. Sony is also already selling some non-Palm models in Europe with Microsoft's Mobile Explorer.

    As you look to the future, Palm is screwed. None of their recent announcements and leaks about the direction they're going with the PalmOS has done anything other than elicit some loud yawns. And as the price of limited devices like Palms drops ever lower, they're going to have even less wiggle room. The latest expectation is that they're going to be burning through half their cash this quarter. Ouch — that can't be good for the massive R&D they need to do to catch up with the PocketPCs.


    Cheers,

  • It's nice to see a PalmOS-based PDA take a cue from a competitor. Being an avid Pocket PC user myself, I'm a big fan of the soft input panel. I wonder if the Handera offering will have multiple panel modes (soft keyboard, for instance), or just stick to the single Graffiti pad? And now that the screen real estate is there, why not some true handwriting recognition software? Microsoft's Transcriber software is very good, and makes very few errors (with a little bit of tweaking, and very minor re-learning of how to write certain characters).

    Of course, the larger screen size might break older Palm-based apps, so it may be both a boon and a bane. Only time will tell.

  • Honestly, I tried Graffiti for 6 months and found it usable but slow and inaccurate. I used to play with Giraffe to try and analyse its topology algorithms - they're surprisingly shaky.

    The OS often feels like a throwback to very old days, but I could live with that if they were cheaper and the handwriting recognition better. For what they do, they're too dear - and that recognition system is just too poor.
  • The toy factor is certainly there, but IME a voice note taker is very useful and not a toy.

    Honestly, I can't see the point of a laptop for letters and spreadsheets. Most of the time neither are massive, and I can verify that a Psion does both rather well. I use laptops regularly for work and they're irritating. Take a couple of minutes to boot, take significant time to shut down. They're bulky, they're heavy and they only run for a few hours away from the mains.

    The laptops do a nice job of being a simple database and web server, or of showing PowerPoint presentations. Beyond that, I can't think of regularly used applications which (IMO&E) can be performed just as well on my Psion. Which runs for a couple of weeks per set of batteries (or 15 continuous hours), powers up and down instantly and still has a keyboard I can touchtype on. A little slower but not much. It's quite fast enough for normal applications, the software can automatically convert between its formats and the PC formats. It honestly clears the majority of the need for a laptop for me.

    The only problem I see is the limited market share and so relatively small software and peripheral support. It's adequate now, I just worry about the future. Hence a fairly strong desire to explain to others just how fantastic they are - the more people who use these wonderful things, the more chance they have of growth. No, I don't have shares in Psion, Symbian or any similar companies. Oh, and a fairly strong feeling that PalmOS devices are far oversold in their abilities and that people can do better. I don't like seeing people (IMO) waste their money.
  • Remember I had one for, erm, 8 months or so, and used it heavily. I'm not sure what you think you can do which I didn't try, in all honesty. I had QED on mine and used it to write some pretty big documents, for example. It was used for (OK, pretty basic) database work at one point, too. What, exactly, do people assume we all do with Palms that I hadn't discovered or seen in others? I've seen people synching with various high-end PIM apps, but I never had the need for that sort of thing so it wasn't really relevant. Anyway, who actually needs much more than Outlook or similar?

    I'll admit I never tried one of those bitmap note takers, never saw the point. Still slow enough, but not as fast as a voice recorder or similar.

    I'm happy that you find it works well for you - I found, for example, the complete lack of proper filesystem access irritating. Call me a geek if you wish, but I like being able to see and play with the guts. I can with my Psion (and have on occasions), I couldn't with a Palm.

    I've seen those keyboards (again, never tried one - by the time a keyboard was clearly needed, so was a larger screen) but I honestly can't see me ever being able to use them on anything other than a very solid footing. Mechanically, I can't see how it can be balanced by itself if the screen is at a usable angle. But with my Psion I can (and have) typed comfortably on my knees, or (generally not when I can avoid it) with one hand while holding the machine with the other. Basic physics would seem to preclude either option with a Palm and keyboard rig.

    There _are_ cheap m105s and so on, but the Vx and similar cost pretty much the same as a Revo (2x the memory, 3x the screen resolution) and 75% of the cost of a 5mx (2x the memory, 6x the screen resolution). You get more built-in software on the Psions, you get the voice recorder - and trust me, it's useful. They're a little larger and heavier - but I can tell you from experience that it makes little or no difference. They're all small enough. Which reminds me - most serious Palm users seem to have keyboards. So your weight and size have bumped up, while you've added most of the cost difference between a Vx and a 5mx!

    If most users had IIIs and m100 / m105s I might be able to believe that they were going for the lower cost. Thinking of Palm owners I know, though, three out of four are Vs!

    The more I look at it, the more sensible a choice the Psion becomes. Yet people continue to buy PalmOS machines. Why remains a mystery to me.
  • Yep, you can definitely do that sort of thing.

    I was actually quite tempted a while back by a runout Jornada 820 and similar boxes. Only £3-400 but gave you either 640x480 or 800x600 screen, depending on the machine. A decent keyboard (yes, better than my Psion) and a full office suite - while weighing almost nothing, booting instantly and running all day on the batteries. I could take one of them off and work all day in a park, or on a mountaintop, or pretty much anywhere in almost equal comfort to a normal laptop.

    Real pity you can't get them any more.
  • I have pretty poor handwriting and can type faster, anyway. I can type up notes, live, in the meeting and distribute them almost instantly and readably. Also, I've written up various documents on this. Sure, I could have printed and annotated, but that's clunky and slow.

    This thing also has a map, several games, a powerful enough spreadsheet (which actually does get used pretty often) and will be on the web and getting my e-mail when I'm away shortly.

    It's cool.
  • QED, for me, worked beautifully as an _editor_ - I was editing and updating 40k ballpark text documents on a regular basis. I found that, within the limits of the device, it was absolutely stunning what it could do. The problem was that I was getting too many graffiti errors (no matter how much I practiced - I remain convinced their algorithms aren't as good as they should be) and found that trying to work on that tiny little screen was a serious nuisance. Colleagues got fed up with catching mixed Gs and Qs which Graffiti produced and I couldn't see on that screen... Seeing something not much larger but with a bigger screen and a keyboard, I jumped.

    Can't find a solid description of SmartDoc but WordSmith looks serious overkill for what I was doing.

    I'm quite sure the DB access is there and works very nicely - I've seen enough about it, I've seen PIMs synched with it often enough. I'd personally find the small possible form size irritating very quickly, having tried smaller databases on the Palm. It worked nicely for small lists and indexes, must more than that and it just got limited.

    Maybe I could have fiddled with DB flags - but that's not provided in the OS as standard from what I could see. With the Psion it's extremely easy as it frankly just looks like a normal PC with an adapted UI.

    Glad to hear you can use your keyboard on your lap - like I said, that was based on assumption from appearance and physics. You do seem to suggest that the newer, smaller ones don't work that way so well...

    I'd strongly dispute your suggestion that the Revo and V aren't in competition. Yes, the V is smaller - but I'd maintain that the Revo (probably the 5mx too) is already small enough and neither is too small, so it's not actually an issue. Most seem to buy them as opposed to a III / m10x / Visor for their percieved style benefit.

    Yes, you _can_ travel without the keyboard, but that implies you think through exactly what you're planning to do (with some accuracy) and make the decision. I just pick mine up and go - plus it's only one box so rather easier to carry and I'd suggest that the Palm and Go!Type might actually be larger and more awkward... Plus, if you want to use it you have to get both out and connect them up. I just open the lid.

    Ultimately, it's horses for courses. You like yours, I like mine. I feel pretty strongly that yours isn't any good, you feel equally strongly that it's entirley adequate. Heck, this basic situation is mirrored the world over in so many different arenas.

    I would hope that I've put together a good case for a Psion being a substantial improvement over a PalmOS machine, ditto you in reverse I expect. Ultimately, we've made our decisions, and it's up to others to read our arguments and decide accordingly.

    But I'd fairly strongly dispute the suggestion of prejudice - I started on a Palm III, I tried to make it fit my needs as it would have saved me money if it could have done. It's also a far more mainstream choice, which generally seems a Good Thing. After some time evaluating it, I had to come to the view that it was oversold, overhyped and upderpowered, and that I needed a larger screen and a keyboard. I'd read the reviews, I'd seen the articles, I'd seen this sort of discussion. In abstract it seemed a fantastic idea - but when I used it, it all fell apart. Now, I tend to look on and think of the Emperor and his new clothes.

    Oh, an aside - they're not that well built. Some individual specified glass in the screen, mine was ultimately retired when a short fall out of a pocket when bending over cracked the glass and so killed the digitiser. This sort of thing is going to happen with one of these, so why not use (lighter, too) transparent acrylic? Scratching isn't a worry as they already put a screen protector over the glass...

    Honestly, though, my usability problems aren't sour grapes over this. I'd already made my mind up to sell and was looking for a Psion when this happened.
  • Sadly, as with so many of these things, I have to think the Vx is an idea which looks better in the shop than reality.

    When I was first looking, size was part of what pushed me to a Palm (I was also looking at Philips Ninos, FWIW). Having tried both, it honestly doesn't make any odds. As with so many things, the problem is more perception than reality. But hey, that's life.

    Honestly, I have no problem accepting that people could find a Palm a good match for their desired functionality. I wonder how they justify its cost personally, but hey, I acknowledge the toy factor is a component. It's a lot of what made me buy my first. My suspicion remains that there's a lot of Palm users who are unconsciously living with limitations and they might well be better served by a keyboarded machine such as a Psion. The zen of Palm sometimes seems a little oversold.

    If it feels good to you and others, you have every right to that perception. If you need software which is only on the Palm (of which there is plenty) then I agree entirely with the good sense of sticking with a platform. Heck, I wouldn't be posting this from Windows if I had the software elsewhere.

    If they don't apply, though, I can honestly say I can't understand a preference among someone who'd actually seriously used both. I'm not going to fight because there's no point, it's just that my experience is that the benefit I derived from a Psion over a Palm is simply massive and, unless you're reliant on something which ties you to a Palm or cost ties you to an m10x (which seems to be a pretty unusual situation), I can't see how the pendulum could concievably swing back.

    But hey, if that's my problem, so be it. However strange I might find it ;-) you have every right to your opinion, as do all others.

  • Re:Another PDA Whoopee!!! (Score:3)

    by GregWebb ( 26123 ) on Saturday April 21, 2001 @02:47AM (#275608)
    I have a Psion 5 with a built-in voice recorder, and it's VERY useful. Means I can make a REALLY quick note. Press one button until it beeps, then hold it while you talk. Boom! You have a note recorded. I can do that while I'm walking along, while I'm driving, pretty much any time I want. Far easier than opening it up and making a note.

    Easier than making a note on a Palm, too. Used to have one, no way could I make a note while walking via graffiti, even after I've opened the cover, fished out the pen, tapped on the button, asked for a new document and started writing in slow, inaccurate Graffiti. While driving? Forget it.

    These things are really, really useful. Might not fit in with the way _you_ use yours, but it fits in really nicely with mine.

    Oh, BTW, you really bought that $2-300 device just to track appointments? Wow. Mine regularly gets used for meeting notes. I've written proper, formatted and spellchecked documents on it in comfort, too. On trains, in restaurants, in parks, absolutely anywhere. I've played games while waiting for things, I've knocked up spreadsheets. I've just got a new phone and so, when I've set up a few bits, it'll be surfing the web periodically and checking e-mail. Yes, I could do both on a Palm, but this is the _proper_ web (not clipped or synced) and I've got a keyboard I'm prepared to write normal length e-mails on. Which isn't a clip-on extra.

    I honestly can't see why people are prepared to pay that much for that little functionality. I saw how limited it was and bought something I could do real work on, not just use as a fancy diary and calculator.
  • I haven't yet been tempted to replace my pocket paper-notebook with a PDA yet, but if I were to do so, I would go for something like the Psion 5 with a keyboard and 640 pixel wide screen.

    But I really don't see much benefit over a good paper notebook. My notebook has a calendar section, an addressbook section, and blank paper for notes. And it is FAST!

    The only thing that would tempt we to get a PDA is if I could have easy wireless shell access to telnet to a UNIX box wherever I go. Does this exist? It seems the the G3 wireless networks are just being built in the US and won't be ready for a couple years.

  • Something I witnessed yesterday that made very little sense ... the Palm Vx we purchased cost roughly $300. The IPaq I purchased cost roughly $500. Ok, I can understand this. The palm only has 8M memory, only a 33mhz dragonball, monochromatic; the ipaq has 16M memory, a 206Mhz proc, 4086 colors.

    Then, I look around a little more. What do I see? a Handspring Prism device. Looked to me to be basically a Palm-alike ... but it cost $500?

    What am I missing here?
  • I know I am reading slashdot when an article is titled "PDAs, PDAs" and there is absolutely no question that the conversation will be about LCD display pixels, not displays of affection.

    this place is cool :)

    sean
  • Actually the Dragonball chipset in its more recent incarnations can drive a 640x512 screen.

  • I can't imagine that this would look good on many applications, especially games and graphical programs. You would get pixel doubling every other pixel, making a horrible jagged appearance.

    Hopefully the font is scaled up by 1.5x in a sensible manner, so it doesn't appear jagged.

    I guess we will find out on Monday, when the device is officially announced. Nice to see the Palm series finally getting some features that people have been crying out for. No more stupid 160x160 screen - I won a Palm IIIc, and although it is nice enough, each pixel is huge, making for a very blocky display (about 60dpi). This new Palm will increase the resolution to about 90dpi, which is a far more acceptable resolution for working on.

    What gets me is the state of games on the Palm Pilot. You have a fast processor (for handheld games at least, a Gameboy is only 8MHz max (ignoring GBA here), and Palms range from 16MHz to 33MHz. The screen ain't exactly huge and memory hungry either, so why are most games poor equivalents of 1980's naffness? Isn't there a decent API available on the Palm for games programming, featuring direct access to screen memory instead of via the Palm OS APIs? I ain't expecting Quake, but Wolfenstein should be possible...
  • Just seems there'll finally be a PalmOS PDA that isn't totally retarded compared to the PocketPC. I've always thought the 160x160 pixel screen of PalmOS devices was really lame compared to 320x240/16 bits screen of PocketPCs.
  • Thats why the new phone includes a *speakerphone*.
    I think you just have to flip down the keypad and keep talking at arms length while you enter data into your palm.
  • You know what hits a "nerve" with me? People who put things in "quotes" for no apparent "reason".
    --
  • ACK! HandEra has made a great product, and it looks TERRIBLE!

    There was a time when people went to school and learned how to make good looking designs which stirred strong positive emotions. The Palm V was one. The IPAQ was another. The m50x (although evolutionary) is also in this club.

    The HandEra device is certainly an engineering marvel. I cannot argue with good technology. But, the thing has no "lines". When you look at it, your eyes dart all over the place. It's just too busy... the design doesn't flow. :(

  • Myself (and a few people I know) already have the Kyocera QCP-6035 (the PDA/phone in the article). They've been available (on the East coast at least) through Verizon for a while now, and Sprint will have them as well next quarter.
  • I'd just like to say that on the behalf of nyip.net (images.palmstation.com's host) I am quite proud that we survived the slashdot effect. The main server is named achilles.nyip.net, and I think we should all play Led Zeppelin's Achilles' Last Stand as tribute :)
  • What's with the memory cards thing anyway. We have compactflash, smartmedia, now multimedia cards

    This is only the so called open formats. Sony hav their memstick and others have other crap.

    Why can't we settle on one format?


    ---
  • If they were going to put another card slot in, I'd rather it was another CF slot. I run a lot of apps off of a 32 MB CF card in my TRGPro. If I wanted to use a CF modem as well, I wouldn't be able to use those apps. Kinda annoying, really, since with a CF modem I'd be able to use my folding keyboard at the same time.

  • If I recall, there are some WinCE "palmtops" that will do powerpoint presentations at 640x480 via a VGA port dongle thingy...

  • About the games, (speaking for the palm at least) I think there are a couple of reasons for this:

    1) Third-party Palm software is almost always shareware and/or crippleware. GOOD commercial games are few and far between. Open source ones are usually Galaga, etc.

    2) The controls available on Palm devices are pretty much bordering on horrible. When you break it down, all you have is awkward directional control and a button or two. I think this is one major reason many people don't even try to make games for the Palm. If Palm (or some other clone company) were to throw in a D-pad somewhere, we'd probably see a few games. But alas, Palm wants to give the impression that their devices are for professional use, not gaming. So I can't see this coming along anytime soon. $300+ dollars for a handheld game machine is a little steep anyway...

    Other factors include crap resolution, display blurriness, lack of decent sound support, etc. Once you evaluate all of your options, all that you really can program on these things is old atari-type games. The best game for Palms that I've seen so far is one called Zap2000. It's a vertical shooter with decent graphics, shareware versions are available everywhere.

    What I'm waiting for is a decent (and free) Gameboy emulator. There is a crippleware one out there somewhere, but I hear its performance is pretty much in the "sucks badly" department.

  • Ya know, that's a use that I hadn't thought of! Thanks, I'll have to keep that in mind...

  • Yes, Visors have a different port; keyboards have to be made for Visor or Palm. The Visor software is also able to deal with USB (unlike any Palm I think), but I don't know if that affects the pinout needs.

  • The problem with a combination phone and PDA is that half the time when I want to write something down, someone's telling it to me over the phone. I don't want to have to take someone's address and phone number down by pulling the phone away from my ear every few numbers...

    That is not a problem with the 6035 linked to in the article. It has a one button switch between telephone and speakerphone mode. Someone wants to give me a number it is as simple as hit a button and open the flip and start writing. The speaker phone works very well too.

    I sold my Visorphone on Ebay and switched to the 6035 and am very pleased. Overall size is smaller and lighter than the Visor Phone and it has phone buttons so I can touch dial without looking at the unit while driving.

  • Myself (and a few people I know) already have the Kyocera QCP-6035 (the PDA/phone in the article). They've been available (on the East coast at least) through Verizon for a while now, and Sprint will have them as well next quarter.

    Sprint has them now. You can order them through the Sprint Website, or pick one up at your local Comp USA.

  • OK, this device looks really cool.

    However, I'm not sure I want to run legacy apps in a 160x160 window (which will be effectively smaller than the M100 screen). Why didn't they just jump to 480x320? (or 440x320, which is close to the aspect ratio of 320x240)

    Apps could be double pixelated at 320x320 take advantage of the entire screen (like the new Sony model).

    And now that low-power reflective color screens are becoming more affordable, why not use one of them? I'd pay $450+ for this thing if it had color. I agree that lower-power greyscale screens are more practical for some users, but I suspect color units would sell better...

    I also wonder what kind of PalmOS problems (performance and compatibility) will come up due to the different resolution screens. We've got:

    - 160x160 Standard, Samsung phone w/ softinput area
    - 240x160 Samsung phone w/out input area
    - 240x240 Handera w/ input area
    - 320x240 Handera w/out input area
    - 320x320 New Sony Clie

    It's going to be an interesting year for PalmOS.

    On a side note, it's funny that this model was announced the same day that the M500 has starting showing up in Office Depots :-)
  • Get RPN from palmgear.com. I sold my HP48S and HP200LX when I got my 1st generation Pilot almost 5 years ago... haven't needing anything else since.

    (Also, if you need to do equation solving, try Mathpad).
  • "Microsoft's Trancriber" is actually a cut down version of Paragraphs Calligrapher [paragraph.com] hand writing recognition software which provides more features. I don't think that the CPU in a normal Palm device can support this sort of app though.

  • Re:Some thoughts. (Score:4)

    by robbieduncan ( 87240 ) on Saturday April 21, 2001 @03:21AM (#275631) Homepage
    Read on either PDABuzz, or a link from their discussion thread that there will be two options for dealing with "legacy" apps: 1) Scaling - zoom them by a factor of 1.5 to fit the square area above the soft Grafitti area. 2) Border - run at 160x160 centered on the screen with borders. Apparently 90%+ of these apps look and work fine in scaling mode. Robbie
  • Image if you used these for a:

    Beowulf Cluster
    Linux port
    Quake port
    Blue LED hack
    17" Monitor hack
    Web Server
    Game Boy Emulator
    Way to wire yourself
    Ethernet hack

    Ok, well, that's stopped people from having to make a few jokes. Hopefully that'll keep the posts down...

  • Nintendo's GameCube [nintendo.com] has an adaptor to use SD Cards in it's memory card slot.

    Details here [nintendo.com] on Nintendo's official GameCube accessories page, and IGNcube has a more in-depth look here [ign.com].

    Hope this is of some (somewhat offtopic) interest...

  • I'm glad HandEra isn't making this like Palm's new m500 series. This device fits some of my personal wants: Shaped like a III-series (from the photos) and grayscale screen. I really dislike the small size of the V's and the m's, so it's good to see something of a sturdier size that's more friendly to my hands.

    And then there's the screen size, the expansion slots... Whoops, I'm drooling.

    -J
  • You know, it looks from the pictures like it's the same size as the III-series Palms. In that case, it might work with your keyboard. I know that would make it comptaible with my III-series keyboard... does your Visor have a different serial connector?

    -J
  • This is true. Which is why I'm glad to see dissension against the "smaller and thinner" movement.

    -J
  • Epoc ER6 is fully Unicode - see Symbian [symbian.com]'s website.

  • You're so negative :) The OS is unicode, and thus the localized apps on it will be also. Do you know how the Epoc architecture works? It's not Windows NT.

    What difficult stand is Symbian in? The Nokia 9210 is ER6, and has a keyboard.

  • Why do people ask questions like "Why would anybody want this?"? Duh, if you don't want a microdrive, don't buy one. For that matter, it's not as though microdrives were designed for TRG's line of handhelds. More likely Wince machines. However, one question that was asked about mass storage at last December's Palmsource went like this: "When Palm OS devices support mass storage, will I be able to load up my 800 MB database for such-and-such.." (I can't remember what the guy wanted it for... inventory database, medical, I dunno. I just vividly remember thinking that either the guy was a TRG plant or the TRG guys were jumping for joy at getting to say "Yes, you can do that already with a TRGPro" Short answer: Under PalmOS, 1GB is probably gonna be most useful if you have something you want to put on it before you go out. Yeah, you're not going to be accessing, much less writing, all that data over the course of a single charge - but having it all with you means you can access it without going back to your desk if you've gone, say, a few hundred miles away.
  • Heh, your Visor just cracked? That's funny, my TRGPro recently suffered a mysterious accident. Only part of the digitizer that still works is the menu key.
  • You don't need to "hack" ethernet. You can buy a CF ethernet adaptor off-the-rack and plug it in.
  • Uhm, if you want to have storage and CF I/O at the same time, why not buy an SD memory card?? Besides, having two CF slots would screw up the form factor - and CF is slower anyway.

    Plus, keep in mind that Palm is going to drive a lot of new PalmOS products to the SD format, including SD I/O devices, eventually. It's certainly not unreasonable to expect that someone would release, say, an SD I/O GPS with a PalmOS mapping application and a shitload of maps installed on it, within the next year. New PalmOS devices aiming to have mass storage (other than those setting their own standards) include SD. It's that simple. TRG isn't going for a lot of new standards with this device - CF inherited from TRGPro, SD to keep up with Palm, Palm III form factor so geeks like me can use all that year-old accessory hardware, the only place they're coming up with new specs is the screen - the extra resolution adds a lot, I can't wait to get mine. :)
  • I just like the standardization of the form factor, myself. Until the m500/505 Palm hasn't been able to stick to one form factor - VII, IIIc with different length than III, m100 with no siblings of the same size/shape, V series now replaced by the m5 series... Now I can use my new Rand GPS without the CF card getting in the way... and I have a lot more pixels to see my map with, too.

    As for going smaller, I think going smaller is more convenient than going thinner - that is, more like the Sony form factor rather than the m500 or Visor Edge form factor. (Palm and Handspring have gone for super-thin without reducing the profile. Sony's kept the dimensions proportionate and IMO given it a better feel at a smaller size - if there were more than one manufacturer of Memory Stick equipment in the world, I might be sorely tempted to buy the new Sony instead of the new TRG..)
  • You know, for some odd reason, the name "HandEra 330" makes me think of Tuna Fish with mayonnaise. Especially when I think about going into grayscale mode on that nice QVGA screen. Anybody else get this feeling?
  • I think the Motorolas are still the right choice, for a little longer at least, in terms of power efficiency... Besides, this whole Palm thing is helping a whole new generation of programmers the importance of optimization (myself included)
  • Seems like a nice PDA, I already have a Vx, but this looks just as sweet. IMO the only thing this is missing is MP3 playback. I already have a cell phone, now all I need is to be able to listen to my music when I am bored. If it can record music I would think it could playback stuff... Any ideas on that?
  • ...I've knocked up spreadsheets...

    This gives me a mental picture I did NOT need to have.
    --

  • I like this one:

    http://66.78.14.162/calculator/kalk.shtml

  • this copied from the plan9 mailing list
    ::

    Much respect to Dave Presotto and the others who helped out
    with the Bitsy port.

    My serial cable arrived this morning, and it was about a 20
    minute procedure to install Plan 9 on it and get it working
    with the office WaveLAN; most of that time was copying data
    over via the serial interface.

    I'm currently using it to listen to the audio tracks from a
    CD physically in the CD-ROM drive on my ``normal'' terminal.
    The audio is a little choppy (I suspect the wavelan can't
    keep up), but I can understand the lyrics.

    People in the office have been pretty flipped when they've
    seen it today (``so it's running CE?'' ``Nope.'' ``Woah....'').

    This is extremely cool!

    - Dan C.
    .oO0Oo.
  • Or you can simply un-integrate the mic and speaker with the base unit. Use a headset and plug it in.
  • 1. Calander, for the next 100 (or more) years
    2. Editable
    3. Catagorizable
    4. Databases
    5. Stopwhatch
    6. Sofisticated alarm
    7. Calculator
    8. Faster to search though (and reliable to)
    9. eBook (I can hold at least 10 novels)
    10. Viewable in the dark
    11. All the other computer type programs that don't work on paper
    12. No matter how much stuff you take with you in it. It never gets bigger
    13. The geek factor
    14. Oh yeah. Dictionary, that's always handy
    15. Like someone else said, you can back it up in a few seconds
    16. Syncs with the computer, so you don't have to write/type stuff twice
    17. And yes... the games to I spose, that's always a bonus.

  • I noticed that the Samsung SPH-I300 [samsungelectronics.com] (review [palminfocenter.com]) hadn't been linked here yet. It blows away the Kyocera QCP 6035 [kyocera-wireless.com] (review [palminfocenter.com]) in my mind, but it will run on Sprint's network. The Kyocera is only on Verizon's network in my area (Washington DC.) Meanwhile, I haven't seen anything about the Magcom Mobile Phone [magcom.no] here in the US.

  • my phone does that, along with notes, fax email, internet access, appointments

    So, great for you, you have a PDA-phone that does what you want, but not all of us do. And some of us are interested in what the PDA options are out there. Besides, how usable is that UI on your cell phone? You probaby either paid a lot for it or else it has a crappy UI -- or maybe both even.

    Furthermore, the voice recorder you mention is not even the biggest advantage this has over other palm clones. The "soft graffitti" area is what gets me happy. The inability to use the whole screen has been my main reason for not getting a palm device. It's just stupid to me that so much screen real estate is occupied by a text input widget that's completely unnecessary a lot of the time (like when playing games ;-)

  • trollmode : on

    Give me one example when a paper-equivalent to PDAs is not better than any given PDA.

    Oh, if you find an example, tell me how much you are willing to pay for that feature. :)

    trollmode : off

    Admit it, you are only after the games! :-))
  • >Why can't we settle on one format?
    Because: Standards -> commodity products
    commodity products -> low margins && more competition

    If the suppliers can keep the competition away, they can make more money.
    A good way of keeping competition away is to stay away from standards.
    Sure, higher costs to develop and higher risk, but faster time to market and better
    marigins outweighs that.
  • >You can use your pilot as a telnet terminal.

    Wooo! Some geek factor! *smile* My hat's off for you! =)

    (I admit that I cannot do that with a piece of paper!;)
  • The original name for DVD when Panasonic was driving the development it was also SD, but when all the other manufacturers joined in, one compromise made was changing the name to Digital Video Disk, which then became DVersatileD, and now just DVD. However, the SD (DVD) logo had been designed, so it was recycled for the SD (Secure Digital) project.

    Also, a quick scan of SanDisk's web site gives this page [sandisk.com] which reassures me that the secure features have:

    Cryptographic security for copyrighted data based on proven security concepts from DVD audio

    Whew, I'm reassured!

  • Yes, I could do both on a Palm, but this is the _proper_ web (not clipped or synced)...

    Of course the Palm does the proper web just fine. You can get the Eudora Suite [eudora.com] for Palm, or you can just use Avantgo [avantgo.com] while on-line.

  • Yes native, clueless AC.

    The post I replied to described using a cell phone connected to a PDA to surf on-line. Palms can do this too. In fact, I do it all the time. Look it up, I did.

  • a screen that could be backlit, swapping SD mp3s with my CF buddies. thank the lord my handspring glass top just cracked. ha-le-lu-ya. amen.
    ______

  • Give me one example when a paper-equivalent to PDAs is not better than any given PDA.

    I used to use a "paper PDA". Every time someone's contact details changed, I had to re-write their entry. The address book quickly became a nasty mess.

    My paper PDA didn't have an alarm.

    My paper PDA doesn't include a phone that is synced to my address book. So on my paper PDA I can't tap on a person's name to call them and speak to them.

    Every year I had to copy the annual reminders from my old paper PDA into the new one (mainly family birthdays I should remember). Man, I hated that New Year ritual.

    Oh, if you find an example, tell me how much you are willing to pay for that feature.

    I paid around$500 for these features, and I am very happy with that, thank you.

  • The problem with a combination phone and PDA is that half the time when I want to write something down, someone's telling it to me over the phone. I don't want to have to take someone's address and phone number down by pulling the phone away from my ear every few numbers...

  • That's what I was wondering. With all this licensing, why aren't they more in the black? Too much surplus hardware units at Palm?
  • I'm afraid it's just you.

  • Analogies (Score:3)

    by Alien54 ( 180860 ) on Saturday April 21, 2001 @04:41AM (#275665) Journal
    The analogies of the PDA to the PCs (and laptops) of 10 to 15 years continues, both in terms of clock speed and ram. The only major differance is the apparent lack of storage space (maybe I didn't look hard enough) conpared to the old PCs.

    This is likely a plus, because you still have to coded semi-efficiently, instead of letting things bloat on your mass storage.

    I wonder how hard this is for the MS crew.

    :-)

    Check out the Vinny the Vampire [eplugz.com] comic strip

  • Here's one option for a much-less-than-$800 CE PDA with a keyboard:

    Cassiopeia A21S [casio.com]

    There are a number of others from various manufacturers. Just search the Web, eBay or online stores for "Handheld PC" and "Handheld PC Pro" or "HPC" and "HPC Pro" instead of "PocketPC".

    The form factor of a CE device determines the class of device it is. Now I'm not a Microsoft rep, so don't quote me on this, but I believe that PocketPC and PalmPC CE devices are pen-based and have a 320x240 display, Handheld PC (HPC) devices are pen or pen/keyboard and have a 480x240 display and Handheld PC Pro (HPC Pro) devices are 640x480 and always have a keyboard, like a mini laptop.

    Good luck in your search.
  • Hmm. Sounds just good enough to put a C64 and an Apple ][ emulator on :)

    --

    • Calendar Alarms
    • Recording Mountain bike race results in the rain
    • Usenix usually has their full schedule of events at a hot-sync station
    • Not as likely to lose information in your pilot as a bunch of loose papers of varying sizes
    • Palm pilot is a nicer way to have important references with you at all times (personally I have several apache docs, the ISAKMP and IKE RFC's, HTML::EmbPerl, Perl, The Bastard Operator from hell, several others)
    • It's easier to search for something in a digital document than in your own scattered notes on paper.
    • Addressbook that I can sync with my mail apps.
    • Can hold several books (see references bullet above) while being much smaller than even a single one of them.
    • Games :)
  • Forgot a very important couple:
    • You can use your pilot as a telnet terminal. Great for that headless firewall...or for browsing usenet or slashdot from any room in the house (slrn works great at palm's limited text resolution).
    • The PPP stack allowed me to write a controlling program on the palm for my jukebox. Much better than having to use a laptop. Turn on PDA, Touch "Play" Voila!
  • speaking of which...

    Are there any video cameras that use flash yet? A 1GB drive should be plenty of space for a full length movie, not to mention the very short pieces of film I record when mtnbiking.

    I just bought my first digital camera, upgraded to a 32 MB flash card, and am loving life! The usb flash reader I bought works beautifully with linux (it's just a SCSI device to the OS) Nice stuff.

  • more info (Score:5)

    by theridersofrohan ( 241712 ) on Saturday April 21, 2001 @02:41AM (#275675) Homepage
    See these links (not href'ed for the goatse.cx intimidated):

    http://www.pdamd.com/vertical/features/handera.xml

    http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/cn/20010420/tc/a_palm _from_the_plains_1.html

    http://www.maximumpc.com/content/2001/04/20/12868

    It has 8MB of memory, can use both CF and SD slots simultaneously, it has 2MB of flash ram, runs palmos 3.5 (custom version of course) with an update for 4.0 in the works, takes four AAA batteries (more power) but they are interexchangeable with a recharcheagble battery, offers serial (i.e. slow !) connectivity, compatibility with TRGPro and palm III accessories, landscape mode, 33MHz dragonball processor and will cost $350 (you can preorder it at the pdamd link above).
    Seems like a very good pda... I've grown kinda attached to my visor deluxe with my keyboard and modules... I can't replace them all :(

  • .. how long it will take for somebody to mention tux, IBM and the '"soft" grafitti' option all in one sentence..

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