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Handhelds Hardware

PDA Giant Sharp Promises Linux-Running PDAs 177

ECaldwell writes: "It looks as though Sharp is stepping up to the PDA plate with a unit (the Zaurus) that uses Linux instead of Palm, CE or a proprietary OS. These units are designed to be direct competitors with Palms, Handspring and other PDA's. The timing for a release of is planned for around Christmas. The problems for Palm and CE devices so far is the limit of easy to use programming languages which makes it difficult for a novice to write even an basic progam (I don't know C or C++). The good news here is, with Linux loaded on a Zarus we should be able to use any of the great languages that Linux already supports to flood that market with good software." (Read on for more).

Lynuhx indicates a Japanese-language page where you can see a cute mockup of this thing, and denisbergeron points to these two links on yahoo for a bit more: [(1) and (2)] Sharp's products and reputation seem to have languished in the U.S., so this planned offensive will be interesting -- especially if by Christmas, "Linux PDAs" has become a crowded field.

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PDA Giant Sharp Promises Linux-Running PDAs

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  • This would be sweet, but when's it gonna ship? Hopefully sooner than the _other_ Linux running PDAs that have been rumored.
  • by pb ( 1020 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @05:53PM (#418888)
    Too bad I can't read Japanese, but the movie player looks nifty.

    It's a shame that so much cool technology never makes it over here from Japan. I remember, at least 8 years ago, I met a Taiwanese student that had a device that was probably about the size of a TI-92. It had a built-in dictionary with a few languages crossreferenced to English, a currency calculator, a TI-81, and probably a few other things, built-in. I have yet to see anything like that in the US.

    Of course, by now we have PDAs like the Palm Pilot, but I have to wonder how many great ideas never make it over here. After all, my favorite Final Fantasy game was Final Fantasy 5, and that's still hard to find in America, and was only officially released a year or two ago here...
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [ncsu.edu].
  • by earache ( 110979 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @05:54PM (#418889) Homepage
    The problems for Palm and CE devices so far is the limit of easy to use programming languages

    That's ridiculous.

    For WindowsCE you have Visual Basic, Waba, KVM. For Palm, you have AppForge, Satellite Forms Pro, Waba, KVM, PQAs, etc.

  • How hard is it to write a layer for these things so i can download PalmOS apps to them? Golf and Asteroids had better come out pretty quick for it too, those meetings can get pretty dull.
  • In reply to the person who submitted the story, how easy do you want it to be. Oh no, the horror, you must learn the language. C isn't hard, and programming for PalmOS isn't either. Download the reference PDF and you're set. It was all fairly self explanatory IMO (a heck of alot better than trying to program straight win32 from the crappy Microsoft help files that came with borland). I think some people today think programming ought to be handed to them, that the programming framework should allow them to do wonders with out lifting a finger, and granted, I do agree that a programming framework should do much of the gruntwork that ends up being repetitive in writing large apps, but you, the programmer, have to get in there and be creative. If programming was easy, everyone would do it (ok, if it was easy to everyone, to alot of us it is, but the /. crowd isn't exactly 'average').

  • The problem with the CE isn't the languages, it's the cost of a development system!


    MOVE 'ZIG'.
  • by TheTomcat ( 53158 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @05:58PM (#418893) Homepage
    Without question, the MAIN reason I bought my current PDA (Handspring Visor, PalmOS) is beacuse of the ease of use of Graffiti.

    Is there an open source equivalent? Or even a Linux equivalent that will run on these vaporous Linux PDAs? I'd love to run Linux on my PDA, if for nothing but the applications, but without Graffiti, I'm sure I wouldn't use it much.

    Then again, how does text entry happen on WinCE? I've never used it.
  • It'll be nice to see how they overcome the interface problems. Simply slapping a touch-sensitive screen on an LCD isn't sufficient. Many of the fundamental GUI "givens" really no longer apply.

    It'll be nice to see, but I honestly can't say I'll ditch my Palm IIIc for one. Maybe if it'll double as wireless Xterm.
  • by jjr ( 6873 )
    Does this mean the price will drop alot on the linux PDA? Since they will not have any OS licensing fee.
  • From the perspective of a typical palm geek, one who is interested in using the built in applications or downloading a useful application for the palm device from some web site, why should I care about the underlying OS? Palm geeks use their Palm as an appliance - just turn it on and use it. They don't care whether it is using PalmOS, CE or Linux - they just want cool apps.

    From a developers perspective, maybe linux would be cool on a palm device - but this has little to do with marketability of the product to the masses.
  • by PatJensen ( 170806 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:00PM (#418897) Homepage
    According to the site, it will be equipped with a CompactFlash expansion slot for easy network connectivity. (802.11, CDPD, Ethernet) It will also synchronize with Linux via a built-in USB port and has infrared capabilities. It has a nice low-resolution screen too that looks like it can support up to 65k colors. Hopefully it's equipped with good battery life and a rechargable NiMH.

    This will let you dial out on your GSM mobile and print to IR capable printers. A quite connected device. With an MP3 player and an MPEG viewer, I'd be all set!

    -Pat

  • I have tried graffiti for some time, but I finally gave up, not worth the hassel. I came to the conclusion that with some exercice I can type much quickly with the integrated keyboard.
  • by Chuck Flynn ( 265247 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:02PM (#418899)
    Linux may be new to the PDA scene, but some background principles must still be abided by. Julie Hinds of the San Francisco Examiner had an interesting article on the "Do's and Don'ts of PDAs [peekaboo.net]" that holds just as true today as it did when it was first published four years ago.
  • This summer while working in Tokyo I seen the ads for this product on TV. There is the boy band called "Da Pump," think of a more lame "n sync," bouncing around on trampolines and using thier little PDAs I wish I had a copy of this ad. I don't think anyone would take this product seriously even they marketed it that way over here. Anyways after seeing one up close up I wanted to buy it but I didn't have money to burn.
  • So.. its running Linux. can you access the guts of the device? recompile the kernel? mount its flash file system to your desktop?

    One thing I wonder about is how it'll sync; will Sharp include a Linux desktop sync program? I can just imagine the uproar if it doesn't include the ability out-of-the-box to connect to existing Linux boxes...

    Beowulf cluster of these things, yadda yadda yadda.
  • by Hanno ( 11981 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:05PM (#418902) Homepage
    The advantages of Linux stated in the front article are void when it comes to PDAs.

    It's not the kernel that's important, it's the API. Because of this, it doesn't matter that there are lots and lots of programming languages available for Linux/Unix systems. It is simply not the issue for a PDA, if you haven't got a PDA-centric API to start with.

    You cannot simply take the current standard APIs for desktop Linux application development (and there are several) and put them on a PDA. You need handwriting recogniation or some similar data input method, you need graphics output, you need a flash-memory file system. All this in a device that has little memory to start with.

    Once you have all this, your version of Linux is so product-specific and different from what you know from your desktop that it might be worth considering to use one of the existing PDA-centric environment such as PalmOS or CE.

    The PalmOS API is pretty damn neat -- for its specific purpose. You get all the APIs and a full-fledged developers kit (based on the Gnu C compiler and other Gnu tools) for free. C as a language is damn easy to learn and is probably the one language almost every programmer knows. Other than that, there are several alternative (commercial) development kits out there for people who want to avoid C. (Yes, I tried the PalmOS API. I cannot comment on CE, though.)

    There are several PDA-environments based on Linux out there, but none of them are actually ready for prime time and all of them require significant rewrites of your existing source. I do hope that one of them will, I was very impressed by the PDA-version of Qt. But again: you cannot use the current advantages of Desktop Linux as arguments for a PDA Linux.

    ------------------
  • by PatJensen ( 170806 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:06PM (#418903) Homepage
    I see a lot of talk about handhelds and OS's on Slashdot but Psion/Symbian never seems to get a mention. I just recently switched from my Palm III to a Revo Plus and I'll never go back!

    The OS on my Revo comes complete with a multiple destination, multiple device TCP/IP stack that supports infrared, serial cables and modems. Out of the box it supports syncing with any IR capable phone and sending SMS messages and it can print via IR too! My Revo comes with it built into ROM! Oh yeah, and it comes with a multiaccount POP client, a WAP browser and Opera 3. For nothing extra. With a Palm, you'd need about $100 worth of add-on software to do all that. The software is much higher quality too!

    Psion's PDAs have a built-in compilable programming language called OPL that really rocks. It reminds me of TCL/TK because it is so easy to build an interface and get your application working. Check out www.symbiandevnet.com to see more.

    You coders should pick up a Psion 5MX or Revo .. I could use a nice IRC application and a Weather checker.

    -Pat

  • ive havent used graffiti enough to make a completely fair argument, but i prefer ce's multi-stroke (ie you can lift the pen up to write a letter) to graffiti's single stroke, it seemed more natural and was faster to learn...

    but then my nino got stolen, so i dont have a pda anymore... but i really miss having one...

  • by delmoi ( 26744 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:07PM (#418905) Homepage
    Actualy, if your running CE you can get microsoft's Visual Basic (or VisualC++, if you want) to program it, it's a free download off their website. I had some stuff up and running on my PocketPC in just a few minutes (a unicode font viewer, since CE supports unicode :)

    Of course, visual basic sucks ass as a programming language, but it is 'easy'.

    Anyway I don't see why being able to run Linux on a PDA will create a huge overwhelming amount of 'cool' software. I mean, most people already know C++, and I don't see that much cool client-side stuff written in Perl, or whatever.
  • which makes it difficult for a novice to write even an basic progam
    "an basic program" should be "a basic program" J. "Me fail english? That's unpossible?"
  • The development environmnets for CE is free, unless you're planning on doing embedded work. But for PocketPC's and earlier, you can order a CD or download the shit from Microsoft's site.
  • I'm convinced -- after having owned several pdas in my life going all the way back to the US Robotics Pilot 1000 -- the true measure of a PDA's usefullness is how thick it is.

    My current PDA (visor deluxe) is very thick -- (atleast compared to something like the palm VX), and thus I find myself tempted to leave it at home instead of drag it along with me.

    On the otherside -- the palm VX is so thin it can fit in a specially designed wallet (thats only slightly larger then a regular wallet) -- which means it wouldn't be any more of a burden then my wallet which I already carry.

    So forget OS squabbles, and tell me about the next ultra-thin pda :)

  • Dont forget smalltalk for the PalmOS. I think its the best solution for the Palm.
    www.pocketsmalltalk.com [pocketsmalltalk.com]
  • I just downloaded the WinCE Development Kit from MS. Granted it was rather large, but what I got was two fully functioning IDE's (1 for Embedded VB, one for Embedded C/C++) and all the documentation I could ever want. You can also order CD's from them for free (you pay shipping.)
  • Unless these PDAs happen to use x86-compatible processors, or any of the other instruction sets supported by gcc and its ilk, there will be no automatic advantage for programming. Compilers have to target a specific machine language.

    The article only mentions Java support. Java's nice and all, but there's a lot of work to be done if you want C, C++, or even BASIC programs to work.

    Who wants to port gcc to a (I assume) proprietary machine language?


    My mom is not a Karma whore!

  • My PocketPC has 3 input modes. A soft keyboard. Another one is one letter at a time (I guess like you might enter graffiti. In fact, I think all the graffiti characters are supported in this mode, but plain letters work fine. Lastly, and most importantly, is MS Transcriber. This software is amazing. You can write just like you normally write, even in cursive if you choose, and transcriber will then change your input into text. This is one of the "wow" features I use to show off my PocketPC to friends, it never fails. The accuracy of this software is amazing right "out of the box" and it gets better because it will tailer itself to your handwriting. So no more 1 letter at a time, you can write just like you normally do, trust me I've seen transcriber work with some really really bad handwriting. So that is how it is done.
  • by RoufTop ( 94425 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:17PM (#418913) Homepage

    Those of you who haven't tried looking at the Japanese site are missing out and adding some confusion to the discussion.

    The input method for this device is actually a small thumb-keyboard, similar to the RIM blackberry device. It's hiding underneath the control buttons, which is very cool as it stays out of the way when you're looking up information. I think this would make entering data much easier than Grafitti, which has lots of problems (ever tried playing zork on a palm while riding the subway? endless frustration :).

    It also contains some kind of mpeg 4 movie player.

    This device is really cool... but the future of these devices is definitely how well they interact with your other computer systems. If it's not too hard to create conduit-like things for it, that would help, but even better would be an easy way to pass any kind of information between it and multiple computers.

    -------

    QAExpress [qaexpress.com]: bug tracking made simple.

  • by delmoi ( 26744 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:17PM (#418914) Homepage
    Thats what I thought, to, untill I found the free download (Visual Basic and Visual C++). I was very, very, happy

    You can be happy to, go Here [microsoft.com]. This is just for pocketPC, though, not the HPCs, or whatever
  • Hopefully it's equipped with good battery life and a rechargable NiMH.

    As very few people know, NiCAD actually beats out NiMH batteries in 99% of applications. Panasonic sells 1100mAh AA NiCAD batteries at my local Costco in six-packs. In fact, the last just as long as Alkaline batteries in situations where 2 AAs are used.

    The drawback to all rechargeable batteries is that they usually put out 1.25 volts instead of the 1.5 volts Alkaline gets. This is not an issue in CD players where only two are used (only .5v difference) but is a big deal in my Sega Nomad where 6 are used (1.5v difference) but I simply wired two extra battery holders in-place to compensate. So for a grand total of 15$ I got a battery pack that lasts twice as long as Sega's 60$ NiMH battery pack (which takes 12Hrs to recharge as well, compared to the 4Hrs for my NiCAD batteries).

    Another thing: NiCAD has a longer life (# of times it can be recharged), is much lighter, and are cheaper to buy.

  • by hero_or_what ( 245446 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:22PM (#418916)

    I manage just fine with a notepad and a pencil.

    Advts

    .

    No programming required.

    Can be easily customized.

    Glue languages are available for a dime

    Graffiti optional.

    Disadvts

    Doesn't cost too much. There goes my bragging rights.

  • It's quite simple really. If you are a WINCE user, you are used to restarting all the time, getting corrupted files, having no control, and incompatabilities between programs made for different versions of the OS. Those things I thought of off the top of my head are just a few (very important) reasons why a user cares what OS is running the device.
  • http://www.symbol.com/news/pressreleases/pr_manu_. html

    Symbol is partnering with various folks to provide a palm on steroids running java on linux. I've seen some of these customized for a particular vendor partner, and they rock.

  • by psocccer ( 105399 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:23PM (#418919) Homepage
    Palm programming is not hard, there are many VM's out there like satallite forms, waba, etc that make it easier. Just like you can use GTK or TCL in linux.

    I would like to point out, though, that just because it runs Linux doesn't mean you can run perl on it or something like that. I just checked, and my perl modules alone are 16MB. Sure I have some extra stuff, but that's the stuff that makes it useful.

    The reason most people write in C or C++ for PDA's is speed. I'm involved in a project right now where I'm porting a satallite forms app to Metrowerks C. Not that it didn't work, or wasn't pretty, etc, but it was too slow. PDA's are kinda like programming back in the old days when every pointer mattered and every byte accounted for. Unlike desktop PCs, you're looking at MHz in the double, not triple digits, and memory is usually less than 8M on the majority of palm pilots, and that's shared storage AND heap memory. Not to mention that there's this 32K of contiguous data thing to deal with.

    So, just because linux is there doesn't mean you get all these great scripting languages for it, but on the other hand, just because it isn't doesn't mean you CAN'T have them either. The source is free, grab gcc-pila and start porting!

  • get it? get it?

    i'm so punny...
  • Yeah, like you're going to fit a kitchen sink like perl on a palmtop. I don't know much about Python, but I suspect it's similar. Java at least has proven small implementations....
  • You cannot simply take the current standard APIs for desktop Linux application development (and there are several) and put them on a PDA. You need handwriting recogniation or some similar data input method, you need graphics output, you need a flash-memory file system. All this in a device that has little memory to start with. Correct me if I'm wrong (and I know I'm not, but what the heck...), but this was the procedure that was used to create WindowsCE. Take Windows 95-like functions and shove them up the arse of the PDA as hard as you can. Granted, they were quite modified, but they were still quite similar.

    The same applies here. Except, in this case, there might be handwritting recognition.

    Also note how it would be quite easy to get mucho-memory in there. I don't figure it would be too terribly difficult to get 128 megs in there relatively economically. That's plenty of space for pretty much anything you'd want on such a device.

    -------
    CAIMLAS

  • it's an 'easy to use' language, will it produce executables that can handle the limited resources of a PDA comparibly to a system-level language like C? Is that the PDA's selling point, that it's easy to program? With the IPaq and others, you can't just use Linux as the selling point of a PDA anymore, right?
    --
    Peace,
    Lord Omlette
    ICQ# 77863057
  • In a weird way, you've got a point. If you follow the Japanese link above you'll see several pictures of this Zaurus. I have no idea what the actual dimensions are, but it's easy to see that the screen does not take up the majority of the unit. Rather, it seems to have a bunch of launching buttons, and some other control mechanism. It also appears to be a bit thicker at the bottom, presumably where the batteries are stored (let's hope they're a good set of lithium ion batteries, replacing AAA batteries every couple weeks isn't fun or cheap).

    Yes, I too would be less inclined to bring along a thicker PDA (like my first gen keyboard one), because it's just not worth it. On the other hand, we can easily get in the habit of taking along small and simple things, which is probably once cause of the Palm's popularity. It may not have the greatest specs or features (even for the price), but it's got a great size and fits in the hand very naturally with great handwriting recognition. That, and not battery-sucking color screens, is the key to a successful PDA.

  • we continuously see articles showing "promise" of a Linux handheld yet I have seen no TRUE concrete evidence of mass production of any of these products. Compaq has Yopi (or whatever it is), and now Sharp has this thing (the only two REAL vendors that I have seen). Problem is, Compaq's machine (while it seems to have actual photos of the product has yet to put anything of hte sort on the market and probably will just stick to its iPAQ line). Sharp on the other hand has non-realistic looking photos on its site and I highly doubt the future of this PDA.

    Like many others have said, Linux is a great OS with great possibilities, but the lack of good character recognition, and lack of a decent GUI have led to the downfall of Linux as a viable OS for the handheld market.

    Until I see a REAL LIVE Linux based handheld running w/a decent touchscreen based GUI (where I have to type little) I will stick to my Cassiopeia and WinCE.

    Just my worthless .02
  • I don't figure it would be too terribly difficult to get 128 megs in there relatively economically.

    I am not an expert either, but AFAIK...

    Fast (= RAM) memory is a major drain on battery power, so I doubt that huge amounts of memory will be the norm in a PDA setting. The memory used on flash cards is very slow, but also uses very little power. You have to find a compromise.

    ------------------
  • I think the idea is more programinf *for* the PDA, not on it. Cross compiling will allow you to do all development outside of testing off of the PDA.
  • From scanning through the (japanese) page it looks like it'll have 16MB of RAM and 3.6MB of flash ROM. That compares somewhat favorably to Windows CE apps, but I dunno how much I like the idea of 16MB to fit the OS and apps and data into. Since it has a CF slot, I'd definitely buy a 64MB CF card. Maybe even more, I dunno. Problem is, doing something like that would likely make a (probably) already expensive device even more so. The pictures do look pretty sweet though.
  • I just saw this the other day on Freshmeat, it's a Virtual Keyboard [freshmeat.net] for just this kind of thing. (for the link paranoid: http://freshmeat.net/projects/xvkbd/) Personally I like this approach because I've never really got the hang of grafitti. I can always go faster if I use the little keyboard thing. Of coarse, then someone showed me that to really get going, you should just enter the data on your computer then hotsync it in. It's a lot easier that way.

    I think that's the best way to go, but there does need to be a way to get data in "on the road." So far, this is all I've seen from the open source camp, and it does have it's issues.

    • X-Based, so the PDA needs to be X-Based
    • Not all X programs accept events from other applications, so they are effectively useless for this kind of thing
    • It takes up screen real-estate, you have to have it to type and to have it you give up screen space

    Hopefully, these guys will embed some kind of graffiti in it making it a complete solution.

  • by Hanno ( 11981 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @06:53PM (#418931) Homepage
    Obviously, you have never written a program for a PDA.

    You forget about the combined memory requirements of the Linux kernel, the C-library, the C++-library, the X server, the GTK libraries etc. Now take your favourite existing Linux app (how about Mozilla?), type make and try to put it in the little memory that's left. There's no swap space, no hard disk, just a bit of RAM.

    You'll have to do some serious work on all these components, taking out unneeded stuff, to save space.

    The PalmOS as an example runs on 512 Kilobytes ROM and 256 Kilobytes of RAM (used for stack and user data). Try to do that with Linux and an X-less GTK+. It is possible, sure, but you can't claim that it will work "out of the box".

    That's why a PDA-centric API offers less functionality than a desktop-centric API, to begin with.

    ------------------
  • Yes where have you been under a rock?? there is a linux PDA been out for months. its still a developer model but runs X and Xscribble. mine is very real ( NO VAPOROUS PDA HERE ) use it every day http://www.csee.umbc.edu/~acedil1/agenda/images/st rokes.png
  • True, however don't forget there is also the "zen" of programming that is needed. Someone who is used to writing servers (or console, non-gui apps) can't just jump into gtk or mfc because it's a different way of thinking. Event queues and callbacks just aren't used (as much in my experience) in your standard server which does "while(1){recieve_packet(); switch(packet); do_stuff_with(packet); }"

    There's a lot in palm programming that, while easy for those familiar with the realm, would be very confusing to someone who has written a few apps.

    However, as the author says, a familar platform will let you write in whatever you're most familar with, be it bash, perl, or gtk :)
  • Yes :) I've often dreampt of a wireless Cell phone-stun gun-pepper spray-wallet-keys-lighter-swiss army knife-mp3 player-pda.

    Which are all things I carry with me at different times of the day / week :)

  • I have an old Psion 5 sitting around that I'm seriously thinking of trying to sell.. It's an awesome handheld, don't get me wrong... but, it's highly unsupported!
    What's not to like about it? a keyboard that I can type on (though, I have skinny fingers).. built in word proc, spreadsheet, address book with a dialer, terminal app, audio recorder, the OPL language (though, I never did understand it.. I'm more of a basic user though :( ).. although, there are several 3rd party apps and the new stuff on the newer devices like the revo is awesome..

    Now, the reasons why I switched to a palmos device (palm 3xe) are somewhat simple.
    1) smaller size, my psion 5 was almost a tiny laptop, while my palm 3xe is somewhat okay to break out while waiting for a movie to start and check the time, or your email..
    2) avantgo.
    3) the mulitude of 3rd party apps and developers resources..

    Now, palm /could/ be better..
    -I miss the compact flash slot on my series 5.. I never used it, but now that cf memory is cheap I'd like to
    -I seriously need something better than graphite.. waay back in the day (of the palmpilot professional even) I bought a pda called avigo.. which had a useable T9 keyboard that I could bang some stuff out on.. I'd love to have some software like the 'transcriber' that wince has.. true handwriting recognition..
    -sound support, even if it really has no use, it was fun to play the odd .wav on my psion 5 every once in awhile.
    -decent wireless net access anywhere, I can use a cellphone in my area (granted, analog only.. for now), why can't I get some kind of addon for my palm, for a decent price and with a plan that has some kind of sanity to it.. (what? $30 for 500k a month? are you crazy?)

    I plan on fixing at least of my probs in a few months by buying a handspring visor and the compact flash adapter springboard.
    (maybe I'll find a prism for a good price.. or I'll stop dreaming and I wont..)

    -since when did 'MTV' stand for Real World Television instead of MUSIC television?
  • checkout www.agendacomputing.com if you want to see TRUE evidence of mass production of a linux PDA ive had mine for months and runs great for a developer model runs X has 16M of flashable space 8M of ram for $180.00
  • Agenda has been shipping since last Nov www.agendacomputing.com
  • You don't have to know C# to develop for CE. CE's native language is a stripped down version of VB. A basic CE app can be generated in a half hour or so. I don't think that easy application development will be a draw for Linux based PDAs, when comparing them to CE PDA's. Our company actually chose CE for our PDA product because of it's super rapid development time.

  • by VertigoAce ( 257771 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @07:03PM (#418940)
    Time to address some of the concerns about running linux on a PDA. These comments are based off of the Agenda VR3d "Developer's Edition"

    Graffiti: this is a concern for usability. The only one that I've seen mentioned is xscribble. It's characters are similar to Palm's graffiti, but not exactly the same. I don't know how well it works in general, but on the Agenda VR3d, it needs a little work.

    Speed and Memory: Definitely a potential problem. A Palm responds nicely at ~16MHz (don't know for sure). Linux needs a little more power. VR3 is using a 66MHz processor, but it's not as responsive as a Palm. The beta kernels/roms do improve this. They also need a lot more memory to run well. Not a problem for the highend PDA's that have 16-32MB of RAM, but for the VR3 with 8MB, it might be a problem.

    Portability: I haven't ported anything myself, but others have. How easy it is will depend on the program. The limitations of a PDA (small screen, less colors) can make it harder to directly port. On the other hand, programs written for the VR3d can easily be compiled to run on an x86 box.

    Open source: I'm not sure if this was mentioned before or not. A linux PDA with flash memory can be customized. Compile your own kernel and applications. If you don't like the way the Planner works, you can modify it for yourself. You can't do this for other PDA's.

    Free software: This goes with being open source. If you've ever looked through the Palm program archives, there are many shareware apps that cost about 10 bucks each. While some of those might be worth the money, many are not. A linux PDA encourages developers to write free software. This will certainly benefit the end user.

    The future of Linux in the PDA world is far from certain. It's quite possible that it will lose to Palm's near monopoly on cheap PDA's. It could, on the other hand, do far better than Palm ever will. It really depends on how many people will support Linux in the handheld environment.

    On a side note... I've repeatedly seen people calling the Linux PDA's vaporware. Some might be, but I have one sitting in front of me. Sure, it hasn't been officially released, but it is definitely real.

  • Welcome to the PDA world Pat.

    In 1997 the 'talk' was about Palm and Windows CE. No mention of the Newton, even though more 2X00's were being sold and the Newton division was showing a profit, you had real handwriting rec, text to speech, voice rec, sound recording, and the ability to play movies.

    Psion just doesn't have the market share in the US to get mention.
  • Anybody who claims that C is "damn easy to learn" is either a troll or has forgotten the first time they tried to work with 2-D arrays.

    Either that or they've never tried Python.
    http://www.python.org
    There's even a port of Python 1.5.2 for Palm OS (though it's alpha software).
    http://www.isr.uci.edu/projects/sensos/python/

    -DA
  • It will be interesting to see what happens next with PDA/NBCs. In the days of DOS and UNIX, nobody thought that in 2001, we'd be mixing music tracks, and watching movies allwhile posting messages on a worldwide community (thank you /. !) The next big innovations in PDA technology will likely be just as stunning. These kind of advances (re: Linux-based OS) only open new door for creative minds to experiment with new ideas. Beyond this, the main barrier seems to be the display. The only thing fast processors are necessary for are real-time gaming and those who have no patience. Or those cutting edge tech freaks ;-)
  • ...and PERL !!! (lameness filter? it's an acronym...:)

  • Wasn't this suppose to be Java's "Forte" (so to speak). I see everyone talking about programming PDA's in everything but java.
    --

    A mind is a terrible thing to taste.

  • And look at how Palm kicked MS's ass b/c of that mindset.
  • Speed and memory...

    Well a normal linux Distro takes up about 1 Gig. Should we assume that's what we need for a decent PDA? No.

    Just as with every PDA OS, it will be stripped down, shrunken, compressed, optimized, etc. If linux doesn't run great on a PDA the maker is to blame for not doing a good job of modifying the kernel and apps to perform well. Hell ELKS smokes on my 12 MHz 286. http://i.am/elks
  • by Anonymous Coward
    Nostradanus predicts that you will get a ream job by a polar bear. Your lucky numbers are: 13 69 32 96 45
  • Damn straight.

    The PalmOS is devastingly easy to program for. Granted, you only have an extremely small resolution to work with (I think 160x120. Correct me if I'm wrong), but everything in the user interface is exactly where it should be. They really spent a lot of time working to make sure things were both easy for the user... and the programmer.

  • "(I don't know C or C++)."

    Loser.

    "The good thing about Alzheimer's is that you can hide your own Easter eggs."

  • Firstly, you obviously don't run X so forget that straw-man. Secondly, no-one's claiming every app in the universe will run, or that every app will run on a 256k PALM. What I said was that you've got a decent shot at an app working out of the box. That's obviously constrained by screen size, memory and so forth but there are plenty of tiny apps, some of them GTK, some of the command-line (so what, I like command line) that have got a decent shot at working. Why not???
  • The statement made about programming in only C or C++ for CE is wrong. You can get SDKs that plug into Visual Basic and write apps for CE with it. Not that I would want to. You can do the same with VB and Palm for that matter. Just thought I would note that. Has
  • Static arrays in general suck and are bug-ridden anyway. Most programs just use chunks of dynamically-allocated (malloc or alloca) anyway.
  • I think this is a sign of good things to come. I have already seen mp3 players run by linux. It will bring more feature rich, open products to users. As for the programming I think being able to program in languages you already know would greatly invrease the amount of software and applications that are for the particular device.
  • Yeah, totally agree. The combination of the relative smallness of the feature set, combined with better design and better documentation (i love the way how 99% of all the documentation that you need is contained in one easy to search pdf) makes it a joy to work with, at least once you've fully experienced the "joys" of writing similar event driven GUI apps under windowsXX.
  • Linux size on the Agenda VR3:

    These are rough figures off of the top of my head:

    LinuxVR kernel (2.4.0-test9): 4MB
    Current Romdisk: 8MB
    Total Flash: 16MB

    So, it is fairly stripped down, but not perfectly yet. These numbers, particularly the romdisk, should shrink soon. (an enhanced compiler and linker that will make programs smaller and faster, is currently being worked on).

  • by rabtech ( 223758 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @07:56PM (#418957) Homepage
    I can't comment on Palm programming, although I've heard it is fairly easy.

    However, I have downloaded the Visual Basic WinCE Dev kit, and it works quite well. Visual Basic, since version 5, has had the ability to compile to native x86 code. However, it still retains the p-code mode, which is very beneficial on PDA devices. You get this fairly complex program and it takes only a few K. It has a full emulation environment, where you can simulate different screens, etc.

    If timothy finds VB too hard of a language to program in.... well..... Seek help ;)
    -
    The IHA Forums [ihateapple.com]
  • Looks sweet! I just hope it makes it from Japan to the US. Then I'll have something other then this Palm V to *really* mess with.
    Confused by the "All Your Base" hoopla? NetGyver.com [netgyver.com]
  • Really? All those languages huh? Let's not forget they have libraries associated with them that take up space - which on a PDA device is bound to be limited.

    Sure it will be. But then again, how many applications are you really going to want on such a device?

    The storage limitation is part and parcel for that sort of hardware - and it's the same issue no matter what OS you use.


    "That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
  • I am currently working on a thesis where I am going to analyze a pocket PC game I develop for power consumption issues. My biggest complaint is that the most sophicated OS for these devices is windows CE, and that platform is a real big pain to program for. For example, to run emulation for my pocket PC programs, I need to have the embedded Visual C++ SDK and windows 2000. There is no other operating system that will run the emulator. So, now I have to go through the process of installing another whole OS just to do development on one program. Having a linux friendly platform would really help me. I could develop using Linux, I wouldn't have to use Microsoft Frustration Classes or the rather complex Win32 API. In addition, my school teaches programming exclusively in a Unix type of environment, and I believe that a lot of other schools do as well. Programming for linux would certainly be an easier transition for someone like myself who just want to do a small amount of development for the pocket PC platform.
  • Once you have Java (as on the sharp) you can use Jpython which is the version of Python that compiles to Java byte codes.

    Without a doubt Python is my scripting language of choice, but I agree with the post suggesting that the API's you have to work with are more important as they determine how much work you have to do to make your program run.

    As for the post suggesting that one doesn't want to program on the PDA, I would agree. In general you want to create an program (even a small one) and deploy it to your PDA. But if you ever wanted to program it would be a scripting language rather than something like Java.

  • a GREAT example of this is VCDs... they never really made it here.. although it wouldn't suprise me if the MPAA had something to do with that.
  • by Arker ( 91948 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @08:09PM (#418963) Homepage

    For WindowsCE you have Visual Basic, Waba, KVM. For Palm, you have AppForge, Satellite Forms Pro, Waba, KVM, PQAs, etc.

    Which, for various reasons, are unavailable, not favoured or simply not acceptable to many of the best and brightest, and many of the rest of us as well.

    Obligatory flames from VB victims aside, anyone that can code well, can code well under linux. It's a programmers system from the ground up, that's its strength, and its weakness.

    The success of a platform like this will directly depend on the the manufacturer getting them into the hands of the right hackers ASAP.


    "That old saw about the early bird just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
  • by OverCode@work ( 196386 ) <overcode@@@gmail...com> on Monday February 19, 2001 @08:22PM (#418967) Homepage
    Handwriting recognition is being worked on:
    http://www.patentburner.com/~overcode/glyphrec.p ng

    Not quite usable yet, but pretty soon handwriting recognition will not be a problem under Linux. Several other projects have also written recognizers, but this one outperforms all of the ones I've seen. It requires very little memory (5k code, 20k database). And it's GPL :) We're currently reworking the algorithm to have a shot at Kanji recognition.

    As for graphics output, the Linux framebuffer console does a great job, and it's a standard part of the kernel.

    Today's PDA's are pretty damn powerful -- many have 32-bit processors (often MIPS- or SH3-based), and at least 8 megs of RAM. The MIPS kernel certainly needed some modifications to run on handhelds, but it's still recognizably Linux, as evidenced by some of the applications it's already running.

    -John
  • Without question, the MAIN reason I bought my current PDA (Handspring Visor, PalmOS) is beacuse of the ease of use of Graffiti.

    Is there an open source equivalent?


    Well, Graffiti's been ported from Newton to Palm, and the strokes themselves aren't patented. I don't see any obstacle to an implementation in Linux. After all, just because it's an open-source platform doesn't mean that it will only run open-source software.

    Kevin Fox
    --
  • Ever hear of BusyBox [lineo.com]?? Grab that, add a kernel, grab a floppy, run genromfs.. yada yada yadya... you get a floppy with a nice basic linux distro for about 700K (perhaps less).

    check it out, it's pretty cool.

    -Andy
  • by pinkpineapple ( 173261 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @08:35PM (#418974) Homepage
    I was in Japan last month and saw the current device. Sharp is going to put Linux on it and so their engineering group doesn't have to rewrite the whole app bundle designed for the specific Japanese market. IMHO, the device doesn't bring anything new to the PDA trend. The lower part of the unit slides and a really tiny keyboard is revealed. The keys are so small on it that even Japanese kids will find it hard to use. Sharp is just trying to play the Linux hipe because they don't have anything to lose as far as US market shares. And true, Palm and HandSpring are pretty aggressive at market penetration overseas (Japan and also Europe.) The only trouble with the PalmOS is Input method (you have to enter the graffiti roman syllables to obtain kanas and kanjis, I hate it compared to the hand writting recognition on WinCE.) I was surprised while I was there to find out that the iPaq 36x0 is not imported currently in Japan and that people were bashing really hard on the new Sony Transmeta chip (WARUI = BAD !) Lastly, the devel env for Palm and WinCE is not bad at all. I wonder what the author of this post complains about. Did he ever try to build a toolchain to get Helloworld to compile for the iPag running Linux? I wonder... PPA
  • Just to knock the nay sayers, I live in Japan and was just down inthe electronics district where these things have been on sale for about a month.
  • Don't forget that PocketLinux 1.0 [pocketlinux.com] has recently been released, and MobileLinux [zdnet.com], from Transmeta (Linus and crew) is supposedly going to be publically released within the next week! I see 3 major PDA linux distros rising to power:
    1. PocketLinux
    2. MobileLinux
    3. Yopy's Linux
    Will a Linux OS for PDAs splinter or will the various distros eventually merge? Time will tell.
  • Apparently MS Transscriber is a feature-reduced version of Calligrapher, who which IIRC is a licensee of the famed Newton HWR! If you try their java demo (not working right now) it's damned accurate... I may have to switch to CE just to get that awesome Newton HWR I miss so much from my MP2100... Now if they could just port this to linux we'd have a serious contender on our hands!
  • I think that it's not the OS that holds back the apps but just the sheer almost uselessness of PDA's that's the bugbear.

    What cool apps could there be?
    you only really need address book and note taker.
    Beyond that there are games - gameboy style
    the rest of the stuff ppl are on aout mp3, movies are waiting for processor power & ram & battery life not Linux

    Personally I reckon that something like Inferno http://www.vitanuova.com is a better choice. Specialist Computers need specialist tools not universal tools. Mind you Inferno runs on plenty of platforms, uses byte code & a common architecture. It's an abstracted OS. Kind of Java but with a standard graphical environment too.
    It's coming soon to the Ipaq & SH3/4

    Limbo - it's language - is simple & powerful and is write once run anywhere
    .oO0Oo.
  • Now I'll take the risk for a "me too" post. I completely agree. I have a simple Psion Siena (Little brother of the Psion 3) and it suits all my needs. Someone gave it to me for helping him with his computer troubles.

    I especially like the spreadsheet function which is what I nearly use all the time. The "database" (ahum, how dare I say it) is terrible: anything than a simple table is impossible.

    Since I'm a coder I looked at OPL. It is a BASIC-like laguage and you can have a lot of fun with PEEK and POKE ;-) Reminds me my BASIC days. The PDF's documentation is good and is easily downloadable from somewhere on the psion site. (Sorry, no link, I'm at work right now)
    I wrote some small tools that I needed, but programming for this thing is nearly impossible for larger projects. Any PDA development platform should come with an emulator for a full-grown PC: "develop on PC and deploy on PDA" (I saw this "slogan" somewhere in previous comments)

    I saw the Revo (a workmate has it) and was very impressed. Most of my workmates have Palms, which are very flashy (Play Simcity during meetings!), but I think they come with too few standard software....yes I miss the spreadsheet! I saw you could buy some, but I was spoiled by Psion....So there is no way that I'll buy a Palm. Pricing is about the same for the Revo and and a "nicer Palm", and except for Grafitti, it offers nearly nothing more (actually less).

  • Could tell me, how Linux could fail to dominate PC market? Win'95/98 is buggy and so on, and Mac... well MacOS is living in the 80s, as far as technology goes...

    Well, just kidding.

  • by q000921 ( 235076 ) on Monday February 19, 2001 @11:56PM (#419000)
    PDP-11's ran UNIX in much less than 512k of total memory, including networking. Linux isn't quite as miserly as that, but you can probably fit a Linux kernel, a standard C library, X client libraries, and an X server into less than 3Mbytes of space, perfectly acceptable for PDA standards.

    I think Mozilla, Gtk+, Qt, and the C++ libraries are so huge because people these days write for reuse and generality, not simplicity, maintainability, space, or efficiency. I have concluded it's pointless to argue that point. Most programmers educated in the last 10 years don't even believe that they are doing anything wrong when they do that.

  • The Sharp machines have always been a good value and a nice form factor. I think what has held them back was their hotsyncing software and limitations on programmability.
  • So everything you make in Japan, good or bad, everyone is buying it. You get a hundred and twenty millions of beta testers basically. Is this going to make the product popular in the States just because of Linux on it vs. their OS? I doubt it, especially if/when the only potential buyers of the product realize that the thing doesn't have a flashable rom, and holds barely enough RAM to run a PIM.
  • By the way this isnt Sharp's first attempt those of s that were taken by the early Windows CE craze might remeber the Sharp mobilion, This is how ever Sharp's first Up right palm device were as the mobilion never grew past the huge Palm-Top orgenizer that Windows CE Devices were.

    I personaly would like to handle one before giving it praise.
  • by GregWebb ( 26123 ) on Tuesday February 20, 2001 @02:42AM (#419012)
    Interesting, but...

    Look at the various Symbian-produced EPOC boxes. Lovely things - I've got a Psion 5 and I'd never go back to a Palm III.

    They also come with OPL as standard - I've not played with it much but it's apparently pretty much BASIC. So, well known and pretty simple.

    Yet how many people use them?

    The argument that availability of programming tools to hackers is the critical factor in success may swing well to a Linux-focussed crowd, but it's wrong I'm afraid. Hackers simply aren't a large enough percentage of the userbase, while most non-hackers don't know how to get the software they've written. Don't believe me? Find a non-techie with a Palm, look at what's on it and be amazed.

    The critical factor remains price. How low can you go while still being acceptably usable. Palms are borderline acceptable (IMO) but also very cheap. Psions are orders of magnitude superior and more capable - and come with the apparently critical programming tool preinstalled - yet remain a niche player, largely because they're dearer. You have to play with the things for a while to understand why a Palm isn't as good as a Psion - and why the Psion is genuinely worth the doubled price - but most people won't do that, so buy the Palm.

    What still baffles me is why people then buy Palm Vs. Clearly less capable than Psions, you can spot that a mile off. Also a similar cost. Yet I see more Palm Vs than IIIs and m100s as a rule. Weird.

  • C is easy if you have the time to learn it, which a lot of us don't. I don't want things 'handed' to me, but if I wanted something low-level and complex I'd use assembler. High-level languages are supposed to allow the programmer to code in something resembling a spoken language, and although I'd never advocate something like COBOL (since I've been dealing with it on and off for nearly 11 years), the minimalism of C or Perl is too far the other way. So far the best language I've encountered that has the best balance between ease of use and power has been Rexx (let the flamewars commence :-))
  • The argument that availability of programming tools to hackers is the critical factor in success may swing well to a Linux-focussed crowd, but it's wrong I'm afraid. Hackers simply aren't a large enough percentage of the userbase

    You're looking at this from the wrong persective. Ultimately, any hardware platform lives or dies based on the size of the third party development community. The availability of a mainstream OS running on a PDA, with widely available programming tools, instantly makes it easy to develop for -- not just by hackers, but by small independent software houses. And that is what could make this a great success. Plus, of course, Sharp have a long history of getting it right when it comes to portable computing. Their PC-1500 from the mid-80s was way ahead of its time, comparable to Psion's early efforts several years later.

  • Uh, Graffiti has been patented, by Xerox as Unistroke for which they sued/are suing Palm Has this been resolved yet?

    William


    --
    Lettering Art in Modern Use
  • It also makes life easier for programmers of custom internal apps. Say you have a complex set of objects implementing your business rules in Python, Java, C++, or whatever. If you want to add handheld support using PalmOS, you have to either reimplement all of them in Palm C/C++, or keep the handheld an idiot that understands nothing of the objects and just have it talk to a server program that runs on a full OS and does understand the business objects. With a Linux PDA, the port would be much easier since the objects can probably run on it.
  • Absolutely correct. The kernel is not very important when dealing with a handheld. The API is essential. And more importantly, the user interface with which the API allows access. The Palm UI is pretty much the best for handhelds so far.

    However, I would love to see a linux kernel on a handheld, with a window manager that emulated the Palm UI. That way, in the future, when you are writing a palm program that uses some backend unix .so you dont have to sweat it.

  • With a conventional computer, I agree wholeheartedly. In the main, people use them so that they can run bits of software. They don't want to run Windows, they want to run Office and Unreal: Tournament.

    With a PDA I'm far less convinced. From what I see, the majority of users treat them, pretty much, as electronic organsers with a backup facility. They already have the diary, the address book, the calculator and the memopad. What more could you want in your pocket?

    Note here I'm not saying it's all I want or even need in _my_ pocket - but I'm a computer nerd who's prepared to play and investigate. I also know what's possible. I'm far from convinced any of that is true for the average user - it's just this cute little gadget which sits in their pocket and looks flashier than a diary. Maybe it can even play Tetris or solitaire. Hence Palms win - they look good enough in the shops and they're cheap. Which results in the extra software being written as they get into a larger userbase, some of which includes hackers. Later the hackers may buy them due to the extra software - but that's more due to the Network Effect than greater availability of the relevant tools. You can't get better than 100% availability...

    Maybe there's some research out there which can settle this, but from my experience third party software really isn't an issue for the average end user as they don't know there's any for any of them - so what does it matter that there's more for one than another?
  • A friend of mine (a developer) already has one- the agenda www.agendacomputing.com [agendacomputing.com] If that isn't right, search for it on google.

    anyway, they are 70 MHz Mips processors with 8MB ram, 16 MB flash rom running a 2.4 version of the linux kernel, embedded qt (I think) or X
    Pretty cool

  • by jawtheshark ( 198669 ) <slashdotNO@SPAMjawtheshark.com> on Wednesday February 21, 2001 @12:17PM (#419063) Homepage Journal
    I know nobody will read this by now, but Psion has emulators for some of their machines: check out http://www.psion.com/downloads/pc/"> http://www.psion.com/downloads/pc/

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." -- Albert Einstein

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