PCI Card Lets You Watch HDTV (And Save To Disk) 165
computer_chacham writes: "Telemann has
introduced the first available PCI card for $400 that shows full HDTV
resolution on your computer. It also is able to directly take the MPEG-2 HDTV
signal, and store it directly on your hard drive. (About 7.7 Gigs/hour, but
still ...) It is also able to output to a TV.
They have a press release,
and a product page.
And e-town has a description
too." Ready-or-not, if you watch the boob tube, you'll soon be watching HDTV -- compared to buying a new TV set, a card like this seems like a smart idea, especially at the cost of storage today and tomorrow. What are the odds it'll ship with support for any Free OSes?
Linux version available for 1 week. (Score:2)
Then the MPAA will file a lawsuit about it. It will then get mirrored until they issue SPAM subpoenas.
Then Jack Valenti will make a copy of a movie off cable to shwo piracy is going on.
I'm having Deja Vue all over again.
Re:Free Digital Cable? (Score:1)
Re: (Score:1)
issues remaining (Score:1)
2) Having used the Hauppauge WinTV-D for a year now on my HDTV, I can say the picture and sound is marvelous already compared to NTSC broadcasts (here in Dallas there are now 5 DTV broadcast channels) The software too is very useful and works well with my remotes. By comparison, the ntsc decode and display thru the card is very second-rate compared to the TV.
3) MAJOR need for improved signal reception and noise rejection (especially of multi-path distortion). It's an incredible pain tuning it to each channel even with an amplified directional antenna.
This is very exciting news since I had given up hope on Hauppauge's WinTV-HD (full resulotion) card, which was never released because of proprietary objections. However, I frankly do not believe that Telemann's full stream recording will ever be made public.
No one else has mentioned it, but the ATI Radeon All-In-Wonder was also supposed to have these capabilities. Obviously, these HDTV features were stripped in order to ship a card for less than $300.
Re:MPAA (Score:1)
Re:HDTV: still a dream (Score:2)
I did such a search and noted the problems and still bought my Wega set anyways. Personally I believe that the complaints were overblown at best.
For the minor problems I've found on my set, I hacked into service mode of the TV and corrected them (a hacker's favorite TV? - there are hundreds of adjustment parameters). No TV comes from the factor properly set in any manner anyways.
I think that the present crop are also of a second generation of units where the problems are mostly ironed out.
I would much rather keep the Wega than buy anything else of equal or lower cost. I don't like non-flat screens. A compromise for me would be to get a regular Trinitron, but I simply don't like the boobish shape of most CRTs. I didn't look hard but the Wegas were the only systems that I found to support the 16:9 format in rescanning, without making the DVD player rescale & loose 25% of the detail.
My only real complaint is that they are a tad expensive and they are _heavy_. 110lb for a 27" TV... a real hernia maker if you don't get help!
Re:TV (Score:1)
Isn't this old???? (Score:2)
Re:Widescreen (Score:2)
Doyou know the mask that was used to enhance the edges? Ifso, does it have an inverse? (img proc was too long ago to recall if all masks had inverses; I suspect not)
Re:Saving to disk (Score:1)
Re:Cheap (Score:2)
Re:This could be (Score:1)
This is a given since all DVD's at this present time have an NTSC encoded image for NTSC recievers like TV's, software decoders, hardware decoders and so on. Developers still have to solve the problem of writing dual layers on a DVD with a conventional DVD-RAM drive instead of `stamping` them like they do today to make writing a 1080i signal to DVD...Although I am waiting for the day.
Yes, I know the point is redundant, but `tis the facts folks.
Re:Law me Tender (Score:2)
Piracy is OK,--as long as /.'ers do it? (Score:2)
But isn't it interesting that one of the first things to come out of everyone's mouth here is a comment indicating how easy this device will make DVD/HDTV/video piracy, plus discussions of how much of someone else's copyrighted material will fit on certain media?
Is it any wonder that the RIAA or MPAA suffer from paranoid psychosis? /.'ers go to awfully great lengths to oppose the RIAA's position, dogmatically insisting that piracy is a minimal drain in their overall business. But, when the RIAA comes and reads this article on Slashdot (which I'm sure they now track religiously), what do they see?
Furthermore, how many /.'ers complain that these groups shouldn't be afraid of piracy while they swap copyrighted materials themselves? How many of them would have a problem burning a DVD-RAM of an HDTV broadcast for their buddies? Do their buddies then go and do it for another friend, ad infinitum?
I'm not saying that this is either right or wrong--make up your own mind--but, how many of the RIAA & MPAA critics actually think critically about their own actions? Maybe piracy is a bigger problem than /.'ers and others on the "good" side like to admit, simply because they think that any piracy they engage in doesn't matter.
Re:Widescreen (Score:1)
Displays and storage... (Score:3)
PCI Card: $400.00
80GB Firewire Drive: $380
(http://www.transintl.com)
CPU: $400.00
$1280 conversion kit for any TV....
BTW, to view the HDTV signal I dont think it'd be necessary to record it... so there wouldnt be any additional expense over the card.
Further note on the cheap drives... as soon as I save up $5000, I'm buying a firewire terabyte and attaching it to my iBook. Just cuz.
Re:Widescreen (Score:1)
HDTV in AU in two months... er, I don't think so (Score:1)
Only one problem with that plan, the standards haven't been agreed, the broadcast licences haven't been doled out (read: sold by a greedy govt for buttloads of cash), and there isn't any hardware on the shelves in stores.
He's dreaming son...
Swell... (Score:2)
Oh, and I'd need Linux drivers. Damned if I'm going to install 'doze to use any piece of hardware.
Two Slots? (Score:2)
Doesn't this seem like a little much for a card that will function as at most, an addon? You don't expect something that isn't a system-critical function to take up this much.... and many people don't have two PCI slots free(including myself).
So why not just release a single card with say an external expansion like a breakout box, or something similar? In any case, this looks like a good card to have...now we know what ATI will be using for its next All-In-Wonder system
-Julius X
Re:Cheap (Score:2)
It'll get deeper (Score:3)
It's longevity that's most important, not quality. (Score:5)
But I would be much happier today if I could find a means to permanently archive my wealth of recorded [fair use, wink wink, although it was, afterall broadcast on cable services I subscribed to] media. I have several hundred VHS cassetes of programming [including every simpsons episode, every Pinky and the Brain episode, the State [long since cancelled sketch commedy show], etc. Perhaps not so much with the simpsons. I preserve things that you cannot buy in stores, anywhere, for I do not want them to slip away.
Probably for the same reason I tend to mirror sites I like. The recent flap with the death of Mathworld is a perfect example of the value of archiving. Web sites fit just fine on $0.44 CDR's, and so does music. But video is another beast, and I would be extremely happy if I could ever find an affordable option to digitally archive [even at less then broadcast quality] my videos, which are otherwise quietly degrading into noise.
My point is, that it's not so much ultra quality that matters, but longevity. If only MPG4 would come out, and someone would sell a hardware encoder. Sigh. [You still can't even buy MPG2 encoders for less then several thousand dollars, and MPG2 actually takes up -more- space the MPG1, [although the quality is actually at broadcast level, unlike MPG which isn't even at VHS-EP level.
--
man sig
Re:Law me Tender (Score:2)
Well, many people think that everything about the DMCA is scary. But cheer up: at least it's uneforceable!
__________________
Re:Why lots of people want HDTV on their computer (Score:1)
Re:Begging for Linux support (Score:1)
Urm, not that I recall. There was a way to get a kind of random seed, using the R register. This wasn't random, though, it was incremented by one every clock cycle and used for the DRAM refresh cycles. But if you checked it at the start of execution, it could act as a random seed for your real random number generator.
Then there were the undocumented shift instructions. Basically, there was a batch of instructions that fitted into the scheme at a point that would logically be shift right, add carry, but for one opcode operating on (HL), it failed; always adding one, not the carry. But, this bug was repeatable, and so people used the instructions anyway. They just weren't documented because they didn't fit perfectly into the logical scheme.
Chances are REALLY good [...] won't have a Linux driver.. that wouldn't be a big deal if they'd just release the technical specs..
Yes, but with most things these days, it's hard to stay competitive if you publically disclose all your tricks of the trade. Particularly with hardware, if someone pinches your design, it's pretty hard to tell except by the interface it exposes to the outside world. In the old days, anyone releasing a clone of a Vic-20 would have it spotted as such (remember there were few custom logic chips), these days how would you prove that part of the internals of a graphics chip is a direct copy of part of your own? You can't short of probing it with an electron microscope or looking at the external interface to see how closely it matches your own. And lots of chip designers have deliberately undocumented stuff so that they can identify their own designs.
Re:MPAA (Score:1)
Re:Cheap (Score:1)
Who has only one computer these days. (Score:1)
Re:issues remaining (Score:1)
The RAGE 128, RAGE 128 PRO, and RADEON chipsets have the capability to process HDTV signals which follow the HD0 specification. This will require peripheral devices to attach to RAGE 128, RAGE 128 PRO, and RADEON based card to provide HDTV signals from a satellite or broadcast source. At the present time, we have not announced peripheral devices with this capability.
FCC ... head ... up butt (Score:1)
According the original FCC mandate for HDTV, by 2006 all broadcast stations are supposed to cut off NTSC signals. But even if everyone, and I mean everyone coughs up the cash to buy a new set, the broadcast area pattern of an HD tower is reduced in half. So at least half the population would be unable to receive traditional through-the-air HD signals (or any TV for that matter- including tornado warnings, etc).
The magic number is 80%. If that number is reached within a station's "viewable area," then the switch must take place. But is that area calculated at current levels or the future halved area? If 80% of current broadcast area is the mandate (lawyers are still arguing over this), then the 80% level is impossible. HDTV can therefor never replace standard def for home broadcast.
HD will be used to project films for digital theatres because, although it does not look quite as good from a raw image quality standpoint, it is cheaper and more uniform in quality. And cheaper always wins.
But what, oh what, are those broadcasters going to do with all that bandwidth the government just gave away five years ago? ABC is no longer broadcasting Monday Night Football in HD. The Tonight Show may cut back its HD service soon. What's next?
ridiculopathy.com [ridiculopathy.com] - We're trying hard to not talk about the election... [ridiculopathy.com]
It's a DEcoder, not an encoder (Score:1)
Re:It'll get deeper (Score:3)
This device will NOT work with DVB or COFDOM signals. this means it won't work with sat. or cable broadcasts, and if the Sinclair group has its way it won't work with anything in a few years.
Note: ASI ingest PCI cards are readily available, so your dreams of unfettered HD cable access are still valid.
If you do buy this card make sure you invest in a decent 2nd gen antenna. 8VSB is a bitch to receive.
Re:the pci card in the middle but... (Score:1)
Here in Australia, everything that's on free-to-air will also be digitally broadcast as of 01-01-2001 (we've only got five free-to-air channels, but then again we've also only got the population of New York City :-).
Digital and analogue simulcasting will persist for at least another eight years, and by then SDTV digital sets should be no more expensive than analogue ones are now, so nobody's too pressured to upgrade.
How much of that digital broadcasting will actually be HDTV and not SDTV, I don't know. But the broadcaster are required to squirt out some quantity of HDTV even from the start, so there'll be something for early adopters to drool over :-).
Link, for anyone who cares: www.dba.org.au/Q&A/Alst on_DTV_Q&A.htm [dba.org.au]
Re:Widescreen (Score:1)
First off, even if the filter is reversible, unless you know the exact parameters that were used when it was applied, you can't cleanly remove it. You might get something that's "good enough" using trial-and-error, but that would be a lot of trouble.
Secondly, for DVD production, edge enhancement is applied before compression. After the image is compressed, a lot of the data (the parts that an average viewer supposedly "wouldn't notice") is gone. Reconstructing the non-edge enhanced image would be further hindered by this fact, although I'm not sure how much of an effect it would have.
Lastly, the way edge enhancement is done for DVDs tends to destroy data in high-contrast parts of the image, making it irreversable, even if you know exactly what the algorithm and its parameters were. Any place where there is an "edge", defined as a sudden change from light to dark values, the algorithm exaggerates this change by making the light values lighter and the dark values darker. Unfortunately, this can lead to "clipping", where some of the variation in brightness is destroyed becase all the values in a part of the image were pegged against the maximum or minimum values.
Doing a guassian blur might help to smooth out the enhanced edges, but it would not eliminate them. It would, however, destroy a lot of information in the rest of the picture. Once the picture has been run through an edge enhancer, there's almost no way to make it look the way it did before.
Take a look at the recently released "Braveheart" disc. In some of the battle scenes, you can see shots where people's spears or swords are held up against the sky. Look closely and you'll notice a slight ringing around them. This is due to edge enhancement. The pixels containing sky that are right up against the edge of the spears have been lightened, which produces a bizzare-looking outline around the spear. It just looks awful, if you ask me. When are the DVD production houses going to learn that movies look better without performing edge enhancement?
Re:16:9 aspect ratio computer monitors (Score:1)
Widescreen (Score:3)
Besides, why would you want to watch television - even if it is HDTV - on you computer? How many people have big huge 27in computer monitors, or have their monitor somewhere where they can sit and watch it in comfort?
Re:Ummmm... (Score:1)
This could be (Score:2)
Re:Displays and storage... (Score:1)
PCI Card: $400.00
80GB Firewire Drive: $380
CPU: $400.00
Watching HDTV on my crappy 15" monitor: Priceless!
Re:Cheap (Score:1)
Re:This could be (Score:2)
HDTV has almost nothing to do with DVDs.
Now, you could save an HDTV broadcast to disc and burn it to disc or email it or whatever. But, then you are going to have to edit out all the commericals and crap that interrupt the show every 14 minutes. Plus, who really cares about a copy of last week's Leno, even if it is so hi-def you can see the pores on his chin?
why does hdtv use mpg2 ? (Score:1)
Re:Um... this has been done already. (Score:1)
Telemann usually supports Linux! (Score:4)
Re:Widescreen (Score:2)
I can't get used to watching movies on a DVD never mind a computer monitor because it's so sharp
Hell maybe I'm just weird!
How long before the extortionists step in? (Score:1)
How is it that the MPAA and RIAA can extort media player manufacturers like that?
========================
63,000 bugs in the code, 63,000 bugs,
ya get 1 whacked with a service pack,
Re:This could be (Score:2)
In this case you would need to re-master the saved video to DVD compression levels, and I cannot imagine the affordable/warez-versions-of-products are a patch on the quality the commercial mastering facilities use.
Re:Monitor replacing TV?!! Not any time soon (Score:2)
Re:HDTV vs. PC monitors (Score:2)
Re:Begging for Linux support (Score:2)
FreeOS? (Score:1)
Re:why does hdtv use mpg2 ? (Score:2)
Re:why does hdtv use mpg2 ? (Score:2)
Re:Cheap (Score:1)
Re:Isn't this old???? (Score:2)
Sorry, but this is just un-true. There are several models from various manufacturers that have the tuners built-in. The Samsung units spring to mind.
It is also a Good Thing that the tuners aren't always built-in. The capabilities and features of HDTV tuners have progressed rapidly in the last few years, recent models include USB and firewire I/O ports, etc. I'd rather have an HDTV with an out-board tuner, so that I can upgrade the tuner.
Re:HDTV: still a dream (Score:2)
Dude... Do a search on the Wega's, and look at all the problems they've had. If I were you, I'd take the Wega back and get a higher-end Panasonic, you'll save money, and get a better set. But that's just my opinion (although, I do own an A/V store...)
Re:Linux? (Score:2)
What are the odds it'll ship with support for any Free OSes? honestly? i would say zero; every TV card i've ever seen is marketed to the lowest common denominator (which, obviously, isn't linux users).
Re:Hey, Europeans are people too (Score:2)
What's this "TV" thing??? Will it replace my wire-less which myself and the family sit round, playing cards and 'knitting' ??!
Re:It's longevity that's most important, not quali (Score:2)
Re:supported OS'es (Score:2)
Besides, they probably have a busload of cheap PC developers to use, as opposed to trying to find decent UNIX people.
Re:i watch tv only on my pc (Score:2)
My lounge is my chill-out area where I can get away from computers
Neat, but not as impressive as the hype indicates (Score:2)
No need for shared storage (Score:2)
HDTV: still a dream (Score:4)
I just bought a 27" Sony Wega (ruler-flat) tube TV and a I love it. Sony has finally created a set that doesn't look like a tube at all. The set uses a FD Trinitron tube and the front glass essentially acts as a lens, so the screen is both vertically and horizontally flat. I'm using component video inputs (Monster Cable Component Video 3) to my DVD player, and the TV has an anamorphic 16:9 squeeze feature - very cool. It basically squeezes the TV's 4:3 viewing area into that of a 16:9 TV, roughly 1.85:1. I have my DVD player thinking that it's connected to a 16:9 HDTV set, so it sends an anamorphic signal and the TV does the squeezing itself. Anamorphic signal = highest picture quality.
So, until there are many stations that broadcast in HDTV (don't all have to by 2006?), I'll be happy with my Wega. The picture is fantastic.
Re:Free OSes? (Score:2)
The easiest thing to do is get a board with two PCI busses...
--
How? (Score:2)
Not that I have any doubts that they are looking for a way to attack, but I wonder: how? RIAA wasn't able to touch mp3.com until they foolishly started my.mp3.com.
As far as I know, this card doesn't break any laws. So as long as Telemann doesn't have any contractual limitations (the way that the MPEG decoder card manufacturers apparently do), MPAA may not have any grounds to sue them. Their only resort might be to go back to congress and buy some more legislation in order to retroactively cause this stuff to become outlawed.
---
Re:This could be (Score:2)
Re:Um... this has been done already. (Score:2)
The Hauppage solution downsizes any signal it gets to 480i before displaying it. If the telemann solution will display, for example, 720p at native resolutions, it'll kick the hauppage card's ass.
I personally think 720p is the superior format over what was listed as the 'highest': 1050i. Sure, the resolution is slightly less, but 720 pixels ought to be big enough for pretty much anyone (at least, on a TV or monitor), and the progressive scanning eliminates messiness with pausing, motion jagginess (every other line being one frame out of sync becomes very noticeable when high-contrast objects are moving at high speed, but is visible whenever objects are in motion), and conversion to the progressive-scanning that CRTs use. In short, the image is slightly smaller, but higher-quality.
Link you should check out (Score:4)
The Digital Bits Ultimate Guide to Anamorphic Widescreen DVD (for Dummies!) [thedigitalbits.com]
Re:Neat, but not as impressive as the hype indicat (Score:3)
Video Display
As I understand it, it can either display on a dedicated monitor or (in standard def) using overlay.
Re:Widescreen (Score:2)
If you want to see just how good a disc looks without edge enhancement, try watching the 25th anniversary edition of "Jaws". It has a nice silky-smooth appearance -- no overly enhanced edges in sight. I wish every disc looked that good.
Re:i watch tv only on my pc (Score:2)
Now that is retro!
Re:Widescreen (Score:2)
What I like about having them seperate, though, is that I can turn on the news, or Drew Carey, or whatever, and still work on the computer while I'm watching it. ('Work' of course meaning 'chat on IRC' or 'read Slashdot.')
--
wait and see... (Score:2)
I can't look at the site
Pinnacle was working on such a card, but have pulled the plug on it for now - too bad, they make good equipment.
You should be able to find local content if you are in a major market, and if you are in silicon valley, you have a lot of choices - almost everyone is at least transmitting digital simulcast, and some true hd content.
To quickly address the comment about 1080i vs 1080p, the reason for 1080i at the time the standard was created - in the mid 80's, was acquisition problems - 1080p wasn't possible, and even now the cost is very high.
What would be a great thing to do is create a HD recorder of some type and GPL/open source it so that it can exist w/out implementing any form of copy protection - it would be nice to edit out the commercials for example, before MPAA and co prevent it.
sorry if my comment is disjointed, im a techie, not a writer...
Dunno... (Score:2)
compared to buying a new TV set, a card like this seems like a smart idea
At close to 8 gigs an hour you might just spend as much on new drives as a new TV. Especially if you subscribe to the *dirty* channels...
Cheap (Score:2)
MPAA (Score:5)
How long do you think it will be before they sue these guys or force them to add copy protection of some sort?
There are cable/sat channels (HBO for example) that broadcast feature length movies in HDTV, and with this card you can make perfect digital recordings.
Sure you need 15 gigs a movie when you first record them but can can always compress them using DivX or some other codec.
I smell law suit.
Re:Actually... yes. (Score:2)
Anyway, I'm able to encode it quite easily as I watch TV on my card. Granted, DivX mangles the picture at times, but at TV resolutions it's acceptable. And because the recorded video is a fraction of the normal size, your hard drive speed isn't as much of a concern.
_______________
you may quote me
Re:Saving to disk (Score:3)
Re:Widescreen (Score:2)
Before you start lambasting me for suggesting to run real-time image processing on vanilla hardware, I'd like to point out that MPEG (ok, I'm guessing about this part -- back me up?) compresses frames with DCT (after motion compensation). DCTs are in frequency space, which can be convolved (ie smoothed) in linear time.
DVDs use MPEG internally, so all you need is to insert a filter before DCT decompression. How to do that when decode is in hardware, I leave up to others, but I'm assuming that the chips must have some hooks for soft-upgrades.
not all of us are cheap. (Score:2)
I bought a TV card for it and, much to my surprise, found myself watching TV so much on the PC that I got rid of the television set in the room. An HDTV card (and a rather affordable one, at that) would be great, if it'll eventually work in Linux.
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
Re:It'll get deeper (Score:2)
In the UK the digital satellite broadcasts use DVB, the digital terrestrial broadcasts use DVB and the digital cable services with DVB with less error correction (fibre is less prone to interference), the advantage of having a single standard benefits having a less price of equipment and synergy between the different systems, i.e. the same channel will look the same across all the systems.
Az.
The difference (Score:4)
So you can buy a DigitalTV that doesn't do HD, or you can buy a HDTV that does it all. For now.
Usually you're buying a monitor that is spec'd for its capable resolutions, and you'll buy the tuner seperately, and if you're not using an HD set, somewhere in there scan lines will be discarded. The monitor, I suppose.
Here is Best Buy's [bby.com] attempt at an explanation. [bestbuy.com]
Re:Displays and storage... (Score:2)
80GB Firewire Drive: $380
(http://www.transintl.com)
CPU: $400.00
$1280 conversion kit for any TV....
Look on your face when you find out your cable company isn't sending any HDTV signals yet... priceless.
---
Why lots of people want HDTV on their computer (Score:5)
IP (Score:2)
Interesting ...
I'm surprised I haven't seen any mention of access control/ Intellectual Property protection mechanisms incorporated into this device.
Sincerely,
Vergil
Interesting... but a few negatives (Score:2)
2) Occupies 2 PCI slots
3) No encoding... but in way this is a benefit, too, 'cuz it damn well gaurantees that you are recording the virgin signal.
Re:the pci card in the middle but... (Score:2)
Here's DTV's original press release [directv.com] anouncing the service.
Useful Secondary Effects (Score:2)
Sure, I understand, who wants to watch television on their computer, right? But still, there seems to be a market for TV tuner cards, so... That, and it would not surprise me to see a future in which either your TV has storage built in, or your TV and computer can share a storage volume (your PC saves to disk, you enjoy what you recorded in front of the TV in the family room).
hussar
Re:Free OSes? (Score:2)
--
Free Digital Cable? (Score:2)
---
Re:why does hdtv use mpg2 ? (Score:3)
why to hell use ... an old codec like mpg2
Scientific American [sciam.com] for Nov 2000 article "Creating Convergence" page 37 explains very well. MPEG2, unlike many multimedia formats/protocols, has been agreed on worldwide and is used worldwide. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
exactly... (Score:2)
- A.P.
--
* CmdrTaco is an idiot.
Law me Tender (Score:2)
I think you could argue that this is a tool for breaching copyright, in violation of the DMCA. I stress the word argue -- some lawyer somewhere is undoubtedly preparing a brief as we speak.
Hey, maybe that's good news. This might be the issue that gets the DMCA declared unconstitutional.
__________________
Re:Um... this has been done already. (Score:3)
i don't know where they get off saying they are the 'first', because Hauppage has had a similar card out for a while.
Mandatory Links
http://hauppauge.lightpath.net/h tml /wintv-d.pdf [lightpath.net]
http://www.hauppage.com/html/products. htm [hauppage.com]
Re:the pci card in the middle but... (Score:2)
See tomshardware.com. . . (Score:2)
It's pretty frickin' cool, if you've got the horse power under the hood.
KFG
oh, no! (Score:3)
--
Re:Widescreen (Score:3)
HDTV fails on so many of these it's not funny, at least in the short term. Given ten years worth of cost-cutting and technology development, maybe.