Compaq Itsy Usability movies

Jón Ragnarsson writes "Compaq Western Research Lab has put some movies of the Itsy running Doom, Java, X and other stuff... The ARM CPU still amazes me after all those years... " My love affair with the itsy goes way back to stories that we posted years ago. I even saw one at the 98 LinuxExpo. This is the box that we always wish would be mass produced, but just doesn't seem to ever get any closer. Its still cool tho.

Re:asdasd - Troll Post

[Penrif]

Now *that's* recursion!

mass production

[Kyobu]

Does anyone have an explanation for why Itsies can't be mass-produced? Because they're so cool. Is it because price is prohibitive? Or materials? Anyone know?

Violence!

[Signal 11]

Such violence - I propose we ban fast computers immediately because they are violent(note to slashdot moderators: this is a joke). Violence is inherent in computers - look at how a computer is reviewed - invariably how fast it can run Quake is cited as the reason why it is superior to other computers(note to slashdot moderators: this is fact!). DOOM was the very same video game which compelled two teenagers to go on a shooting rampage in columbine(note to slashdot moderators: this is not flamebait)! We must act quickly - ban fast computers now! Go back to 286/25's and MS Flight Simulator 1.0(note to slashdot moderators: MSFS sucks). Churches unite! Oppose this menace to decency!

The burning desire to have Unix everywhere...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm not so sure that I'd want a Linux-based PDA. After all, it's not the only Open Source OS that could be used. And who wants to have to log on to a PDA anyway? Multiple users? Isn't that sort of a waste?

I guess they could take these things out, but once you start removing everything that makes Linux the way it is, the user experience is going to be vastly different. PDA Linux will be nothing like PC Linux. It probably won't have a command line or any of the other things most users are used to.

So will a PDA Linux even be Unix? Maybe not.

Hmmm

[the_other_one]

How can we hava a beowulf of these if they are not mass produced?

Douglas Adams was wrong.. :(

[F2F]

So, finally the Old Prophecy has come true (and it did way ahead of its time for this planet): an Interface has come, that allows you to command your radio with only but a simple gesture...

This is Good, for it will be the doom of the evil mouse and keyboard... Rejoice!

It's a pity though that we'll have to sit *very* still in order to view the whole pr0n collection we just downloaded uninterrupted by random scrolling...

Wander where Compaq R&D get their ideas from? :)

Flame On :)

Re:mass production

[Mondragon]

Go to Compaq's web site, download the plans, and build one yourself.. :-)

Honestly, though, there aren't any seriously expensive or hard to find components in that device. You might have been able to convince me a few months ago that ARM chips were in short supply, but with the number of companies shipping products based on it going up, I think we would have heard of any production problems.

Realistically, it may just be that Compaq doesn't see a market for it. However, it may not cost them too much more to actually produce and ship it. Obviously, if they don't plan on shipping it, they've already acknowledged that they're going to take a loss on the research and development, so recovering that cost should be a non-issue at this point. The real cost actually comes from advertising/marketing (if they want to seriously push the product) and with production time. These wouldn't be that hard to pump off the line, but that means that they have a production line that isn't producing something else, which perhaps was a more profitable product. There's plenty more random reasons as well (like the PDA market is really heating up and getting seriously competitve at this point, and you can't make a lot of money just on the few gear-heads who buy your product because its' guts are cool). A lot of things have to happen before you can release a product to market.

But, putting all that aside, I've heard that they will be shipping a product around Christmas.

Why not Mass Market?

[kill bikini-bot kill]

Yes, I was wondering why they aren't moving more quickly toward the mass market. I do notice that the web page looks a lot slick than it did a few years ago (or so I remember anyhow).

There are probably several reasons that none of us can go out and buy one right now. Obviously the charter of the project says that the goal is to explore new interface innovations in hand-held computing--these guys are just doing research and development, not necessarily even looking for a commercial poduct. Also, I imagine that there may be some marketing thought the either consumers are not ready for such a device (the general consumer, I mean--I'm sure as hell ready) or that they need to exploit the market for stuff they already have out there more before moving on to something drastically better. Do you really think that Intel or AMD don't have some increadibly cool processors sitting around that aren't going to market for years because of stategy not technology reasons?

Anyhow, they provide directions on how to build your own itsy. I just signed up to have the url for the directions emailed to me. I wonder if interested Slashdoters could get some sort of bulk discount on the necessary parts?

Introducing: THE ITSYSLASH! cool.

A command line interface would be almost necessary

[1337d00d]

The smallest installation of Linux with X that I've seen takes up 40 megs. Unacceptable. The smallest command line installation I've seen takes up a little less than a megabyte. Much better. The base install would probably have a most of /etc, a little of /dev, no /home or /opt and choice selections from /bin and /sbin. Maybe a GUI would be an addon. However, you have to imagine that someday, Palm computers might be the size of mainframes compared to what the size of computers would be then. (nanocomputers attached to nanobots). I think that a POSIX complaint filesystem, and multiuser support would be necessary, if only for daemons.

Re:Violence!

[generic-man]

Such idiocy -- I propose we be able to block Signal 11 immediately because he is moronic (note to Signal 11: you're not funny). Idiocy is inherent in Sig11's posts -- invariably how often Signal 11 is quoted is how often a post is labeled a troll [trolldot.org] (note to Signal 11: say something original!).

Please go away unless you have something substantive to add to a thread. Otherwise go back to using MSFT Windows in peace (note to Signal 11: Microsoft's stock symbol is not MSFS!).

Ah, these lazy three-day weekends...

Build your own!

[PopeAlien]

Hey this is cool-
It looks like they are making all the source code, hardware specs, and other information availiable for download [compaq.com] -I'm impressed! Does anybody out there have the time/resources to put one of these together?
-

Re:Violence!

[John Poole]

(note to Signal 11: Microsoft's stock symbol is not MSFS!)

MSFS is Microsoft Flight Simulator, not Microsoft.

Re:Violence!

[F2F]

> Microsoft's stock symbol is not MSFS

I believe he was referring to Microsoft Flight Simulator and not Microsoft itself.

Otherwise please continue, we all enjoy your flames :)

Here come a new show ...

[javatips]

ITSY & SLASHY SHOW

Re:A command line interface would be almost necess

[agentsix]

It wouldn't be that hard to design a very stripped-down version of an X server to run on something like an Itsy. The problem with your 40M install of X is that the X you are installing has to deal with multiple hardware platforms, and the inherent bugs^h^h^h^hfeatures of each. I'm working on my own little custom GUI for a car-based MP3 player (using an old color laptop display) with svgalib, and the stuff I'm writing is ending up pretty small. With something like an Itsy, things could be done even smaller, as the hardware is known in-and-out by the software developers.

Yopy IS AN ITSY!

[Russ Nelson]

The Yopy [yopy.org] *is* basically an Itsy, modulo the accellerometer interface, and heck, we can hack one into it.

I guess someone has to ask.....

[Peale]

"Didn't we see this story before? Sometime in, say, 1998?"

Just saving the trouble for the /. trolls.

I'm sorry. What I meant to say was 'please excuse me.'
what came out of my mouth was 'Move or I'll kill you!'

I think a Bitchslapping is in order

[Signa1 ll]

CmdrTaco, listen up. This man is a threat to our community as a whole. He must be bitchslapped for the greater good.

Elusive Display?

[iceburn]

I was considering putting one of these little puppies together after reading a previous article about it, but it seems that the displays are not widely available. Anybody know where they are available?

iceburn

Usability?

[Miska]

Hold on, did you say this was from a research lab trying to innovate the user interface? The interface is cute, but not really usable.

Lets bring back good old Donald A. Norman ("Design of Everyday Things"). He esentially says people shouldn't have to remember a lot of 'unusual'/not everyday information when using things; the information should be there at hand.

Lets have a look at Itsy: no visible information aside from the name, only a possibility to it through a bunch of undefined moves - which probably vary contextually. Poor user has to learn a whole new interface (not any more natural than what s/he's leaving behind)

Poor user; at least keyboards have letters printed on them.

Then again, the voice interface seems interesting.

Re:mass production

[^]

The Itsy is a research prototype, and isn't really well suited to an end user. I've done some work on them. On one hand, they're very powerful for their size, and can do almost anything you need. On the other hand, the stylus interface can be troublesome at times, and the hardware can be downright demanding. As just a single example, if the case is screwed on too tight, this can cause undue pressure on some components which results in a noisy interface to the flash systems, causing a boot failure.

That is, the Itsy doesn't really have the reliability and fortitude that an end user wants. Now, sure a unit which does could be designed, but that's quite different than mass producing Itsys.

Re:playing movies

[Russ Nelson]

Download the .avi's and play them with xanim. Works great, unlike the vast majority of movies I download.
-russ

Re:mass production

[Cedric Adjih]

<em>
Go to Compaq's web site, download the plans, and build one yourself.. :-)
</em>
<p>
I investigated, but I was scared at the price of individual components, and this resulted into a question to
<a href="http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=00/05/27/ 1846219">askslashdot</a>.
<p>
<em>
ike the PDA market is really heating up and getting seriously competitve at this point, and you can't make a lot of
money just on the few gear-heads who buy your product because its' guts are cool
</em>
<p>
Hmmm... no money.... Well, remember in the eighties the flury of micro-computers (Pet, VIC, Apple II, Commodore64, ZX81 Spectrum, QL, Oric, Aquarium, MSX, ...) ? Granted, maybe they were also used for games (like many PC nowadays).

Re:mass production

[WhyCause]

One other point not covered in this post; Compaq sells WinCE based handhelds. It could be they don't want to compete with themselves, or it could be they have signed some sort of exclusivity agreement with regards to marketing handhelds.

Mobots

[CMU_Nort]

You have to admit though, that the Itsy would be an amazing device to use as the controlled for a mobile robot.

Re:A command line interface would be almost necess

[Cedric Adjih]

The smallest installation of Linux with X that I've seen takes up 40 megs.

Of course there is lots of unnecessary stuff in those 40 MB. For comparison, back in 1994, the first Debian released took about 40 MB with every package installed.

That tilt. . .

[stevarooski]

The tilt-scroll ability looks VERY cool, but at the same time wouldn't it be somewhat impractical? What kind of electrical component do they use to do that, and how expensive is it??

Another thing that astounds me is the voice command ability. WOW. And the video played on the machine looked extremely good--even with a video of the video it was completely clear and easy to make out.

So, whats keeping the Itsy off the shelves? I just sold my Psion, and am looking for a new PDA. . .these look amazing. Probably VERY VERY expensive to produce, though, 'cause of the sheer number of components such functionality would require.

-S

http://students.washington.edu/steve0/ [washington.edu]
[e-mail]

Re:Usability?

[Potatoswatter]

Huge screenfulls of point-and-click options don't work so well, either. For clicking buttons or drawing/writing, use a pen; for scrolling tilt it. For such small and flexible things, context variability can be good.
And what's more everyday than XWindows and Doom?

Ramble on!
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0

Re:I guess someone has to ask.....

[Potatoswatter]

Why, do you have a short attention span?

Just saving trouble for the /. troll-haters.

Ramble on!
mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0

Re:playing movies

[AmirS]

Still, watching those .avis needs binary-only modules for xanim which I'd much rather not install, thanks.

I'd expect a project using linux to go the open way and post these movies in, say .mpg format.

(PS I haven't checked what codecs the quicktime files use, but they're probably proprietary)

£0.02 from me

Tiqit

[gargle]

Also take a look at Tiqit [tiqit.com], founded to market minature computers by the Stanford professor whose matchbox web server [stanford.edu] was slashdotted sometime back.

Re:mass production

[Howl]

Another issue is that the cost of approvals (FCC et al) for a production product is not inconsiderable. Publishing a design pushes all the compliance issues onto the builder.

Nice toy though - perhaps they will licence it out like they did the PJB MP3 player (great toy I love mine).

NATALIE PORTMAN AT DEFCON

[CiXeL]

Someone needs to get natalie portman to star at Comdex or DEFCON. Tell me that wouldnt be da $hit.

Re:mass production

[fm6]

Hi there, I'm Michael Capellas, CEO of Compaq. We're quite willing to manufacture the Itsy. Hell, we'll build anything, if there's money in it. But that's the catch -- we're here to make money. We don't sell toys to nerds at a loss.

So convince me. Show me a business plan. Who would buy this thing? What would they be willing to pay? Sit down and figure out production costs, a marketing strategy, how many units we'd need to sell to make back our startup costs, and prove to me that we can sell that many.

What, you don't know how to do any of these things? Now you know why I'm in charge of a major high tech company and you're not!

(Attention to the slow-witted: ethey bovay isay atiresay!)

Re:Violence!

[Zaaf]

You're quit right.
Slow computers are more user-friendly than fast computers. In an office environment, when you have to wait on your computer every now AND then, you won't have to work so hard, simply because you can't.

In the same way, MS Office products are very user friendly and avoid RSI by hanging every second hour or so. The required reboot takes about 10 minutes so of you go to the coffee machine for your required break.

Really Micros~1 is doing us a favour by BSOD'ing us every now and then.

Zaaf

---
---

Re:Hmmm

[Mike Buddha]

Yeah! We need a Bluetooth module so a group of nerds can set up a wireless Cluster just walking down the street.

Re:Elusive Display?

[leinhos]

From the sysbom.xls listing in the design specs, the display is an Epson part number TCM-A0822-xx, and the touch screen is a Dynapro custom part, pn 9271. I checked websites for both companies with no luck finding any info on these. Also, all the documentation is for Itsy version 1, but one of the slide presentations shows an Itsy version 2, which is smaller and uses Li-ion batteries. The Itsy v.2 looks even better, so I would hold off until Compaq releases the v.2 design specs. You may be better off trying to build a LART ( http://www.lart.tudelft.nl/index.php3 ), which is truely GPL'd (open design) and already has a group of people offering PCBs), or just waiting for Yopy.

Re:I guess someone has to ask.....

[Peale]

stop bitching about trolls, when your comment is a redundant waste of bandwidth.

And yet, you reply, which is a bigger waste of bandwidth.

The comment was _supposed_ to be amusing. I could really care less about trolls.

And, of course, I find myself responding to a troll myself, posting via 'AC'. Go figure.

I'm sorry. What I meant to say was 'please excuse me.'
what came out of my mouth was 'Move or I'll kill you!'

Re:I guess someone has to ask.....

[Peale]

Why, do you have a short attention span?

Now, THAT was funny.

I'm sorry. What I meant to say was 'please excuse me.'
what came out of my mouth was 'Move or I'll kill you!'

Re:A command line interface would be almost necess

[SEWilco]

Well, go and try it. I had a 20 MB disk in a handheld several years ago and had to leave MS-Win3.1 in it. I think Linux and Tiny X was 12MB when I got done...too bad the vendor kept the network interface proprietary.

Re:That tilt. . .

[rjnerd]

One chip accellerometer, standard part from Analog Devices. They are cheap. They were developed for the automotive crowd (smarter airbags), and those guys count mills. ($0.001). Its under $10 in singles. They have been available for 7 or 8 years now.

The "for the annual meeting" demo gadget was a small black plastic cube. Pick it up, it starts to whine. Tilt it, and the pitch changed. It was only two axis sensing (they only put one chip in it)

If you dissolved away the package, you would see one of the first high volume "micro-machined" devices. It had tuning forks made from poly, that was deposited on a very thick layer of glass. The glass beside and under the structure was etched away.

The fork was driven electrostatically, and by comparing the difference in the drive currents, you could infer any accellerations. Originally it was done in an extension to an existing mixed (bipolar and CMOS) process. (wound up adding something like 17 extra masks) For those that talk about 0.18u 2V cmos processes, this would be a very different experience. It was a 24V (max) process, minimum feature size was 3u. Metal was on something like 10u pitch. (Second metal was optional, 12u pitch, and via's were 4x4 if I remember correctly)

Small Linuxes

[SEWilco]

On my way to looking up other things, I noticed LEM [linux-embedded.com], an 8MB Linux with X Windows. Of course, the Linux Router Project [linuxrouter.org] seems to be the most active single-floppy Linux project -- and a new release is scheduled for today. Once you reach one of those sites you'll find links to other sites, although most do not include X Windows.