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Hardware

50-Dollar Hackable "WebSurfer" 93

Posted by CmdrTaco from the but-it-doesn't-travel-through-time dept.
evilviper pointed us to a new hack on LinuxHacker. Last time it was the i-opener, but this time its the WebSurfer. It's 50 bucks and can be had at CompUSA. They show it booting Linux among other things. Has a wireless keyboard, a real (non win) modem, and a Cyrix CPU. Looks perfect for voiding warranties.
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50-Dollar Hackable "WebSurfer"

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  • Yank that modem outta there and put in a 100/Eth card!

  • Best way to get one (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I just got a Websurfer Pro dropped off at my house yesterday. My friend is the manager @ CompUSA, it seems they gave all the extras to employees when things got hot. See if you can score one off anybody who works at CompUSA.

  • Maybe like this? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    The "Book PC":

    http://store.yahoo.com/directron/bookpc.html

    A bit pricy, byt pretty tiny, and comes with the mobo.

    You'd have to paint it black, tho.
  • take a look at ftp://209.239.171.239/be/ [209.239.171.239] in the "Product Images" there's picture of webpad, Qubit, Compaq stuff, etc.
    there's also some pictures at http://www.be.com/press/photos.html [be.com]
    --
    BeDevId 15453 - Download BeOS R5 Lite [be.com] free!
  • According to this guy [kenseglerdesigns.com] CompUSA's cost on these is only $25. I wonder what that actual cost of producing
    these suckers is.
  • Does that mean they'll just moderate down his ISP? My provider's karma must be cellar dwelling by now.:-)
  • However this post (parent of parent of this one) contains information not found in the other post to which you referred.
  • Read a popular mechanics from 1955. There are instructions about how to do everything from modify a Ford Model A into a roadster to building your own radio transceiver. What happened to cause the average american to loose interest in doing pratical things? I enjoy hacking up great solutions. It isn't even the desire to produce something for the end result. It is the experiance of hacking in and of itself that makes me want to continue! What else is there to say?
    ---
  • I think i'm gunna get one of these. I'll just have the rebate sent to a PO Box where the Internet subscripton will be, then cancel the PO Box. It's worth it for one of these.
  • You're just asking too much for a vendor to sell a machine such as this or the iOpener for $50.00. A "respectable" manufacturer that did what you're asking for would be out of business inside a couple months, unless they became paper billioners through an IPO or something. If you're looking for a machine for your $50.00, go through the want ads and buy yourself a used 486 and be happy with that... Otherwise, your thanks to the company for producing a nifty piece of hardware will bankrupt them.

  • Thougn I would like to see a similar device boot a full QNX Neutrino in the near Future :)

    Oh, me too. :-) It's just that up to now, QNX's OSes have been pretty-much anti-hobbyist, since there was a big pricetag in order to get "in." With the upcoming free release of Neutrino and QSSL's policy change that will make Neutrino development accessible, I think Neutrino is going to become a lot more interesting and useful.


    ---
  • After the i-opener was cracked, the company very quickly said that you must also by their net access with the box. No doubt these people are also taking a hit on people buying these boxes as only linux toys. So why can't a company price on of these things a little higher, make a profit, and then release it as a small workstation type thing. (Similar to e-machines, only cheaper and workable.)

    A guess that would kill the hack-value though.
  • Chuckle, "Morally ambiguous at best", I like it.
    If you mean, "Kinda like theiving", I will agree
    if you agree that "If you sign up for 3 years of service at $20 per month when you could be getting it for free" is "Kinda like murder".

  • I find it amusing that the Web Surfer and I-Opener appeal to us only because they are hackable, yet the manufacturers never intended for anyone to modify them. Perhaps someone will realize that there is a niche market for cheap hackable devices for folks to modify and use as they please.

    As a long time BeOS supporter I was dissapointed when Be shifted focus to internet appliances. They keep saying that internet appliances will be the Next Big Thing(tm). I haven't seen any evidence to support that just yet.

    The value in these small devices comes from being able to use the device in a flexible way. Palms are quite limited compared to a desktop PC yet they are immensely popular because they are so versatile.

    I see potential with lightweight, portable, and cheap PC-based machines: mp3 servers, x-terminals, low cost notebooks, even wearable computers. Nobody really wants to buy an appliance that only has one use unless it's dirt cheap or insanely faster/better/easier than the PC alternative.

  • My 486 66mhz CPU can decode mp3s, but only by mixing both channels into one mono channel. Thanks to mpg123. I do it on a 486, because I can. I also have a K6-450, and I do 99.9% of my work there. ;)
  • Err... I actually edited that part out :)
  • Has 2 RAM slots, all I had seen on the hack board was someone getting a 128MB stick working.

    I have one bit no time to hack it until this coming weekend, one of the first upgrades will be RAM.

    Also, you can overclock it to 266MhZ or so.

  • hhmmm.....

    5.4 Applications/Questionnaires. You agree to answer accurately, truthfully and completely all requests for information that we may send to you from time to time, whether such requests or responses are sent electronically or by any other method.

    2.2 Webplayer Software License ...You may not attempt (or authorize any attempt) to defeat, obstruct or block any or all of the Webplayer Software functionality, or to decompile, reverse engineer or disassemble the Webplayer or the Webplayer Software.

    neither of these clauses were in the materials i was initially given.... maybe the technical person i spoke to was overridden by the legal people..... additionally, IANAL; can someone translate the second clipping i set up? does "blocking" pertain to hacking the software and blocking certain services (which is what i would assume, given its context), or would that mean that you implicitly can't install another OS? (installing another OS would sort of "block" all functionality, but then again, installing another OS could also mean just not "turning on" the native OS, which wouldn't be much different than just not turning on the machine. i'm guessing that since there is no clause anywhere that says you have to use the hardware AND software TOGETHER, at the same time, that installing another OS on the hardware could be interpurted the same as simply not turning on the OS, which would be different than "blocking" functionality.

  • From what I have read, 49.99 is the price if you buy the service, though people seem to be getting them anyways for that price. But they can be bought without the internet service for $199 [websurfer.com]-$249 [atlsky.com]. WHich is actually what people wanted when they were talking about the I-opener.
    I don't think the company will have a problem with this, because they have a price fro just the unit itself. ANd they probably considered this a few months back when all this hell went up about the I-opener. Its probably the reason the price is so low, generate sales from Linux Hack fans around the globe. It'd be stupid for them to retaliate after seeing it happen to another group. If anything they should step up production.

    Link from company about WebSurfer Inc [websurfer.com]
  • Companies have tried this throughout history. It has never worked -- someone will always take it apart. (Even covering the board with tar as in the case of most cable boxes didn't stop people from taking them apart. However, it doesn't work once soaked in a solvent.)

    Apple did this with the early macs... T-15 Torx screws... two of them 8" inside the case. Nintendo has done this with every one of their toys with the exception of the game boy line.

    All one needs is a drill or, my favorite, a drimel tool.

  • FEH! (Score:1)

    by Qstyk ( 73565 )
    Impressive.

    I'd like to see an affordable Linux box whose power consumption and heat output were incredibly low. Maybe a solar-power Linux refrigerator?
  • It was retailer's error. But not the employee's error in not enforcing the terms, it was CompUSA's error at corporate. They changed the price without letting store level know about the package.

    I have watched those things sit in the store for over 6 months while not one of them sold. A couple of days ago, I see two young gentlemen walk in and each pick one up. The sign, still said $199. I check the cost in the system, it is $50. Well, I think we are finally dumping this junk, it is about time. An hour later, I have one left in the store. I now suspect an I-opener type hack and put one aside for myself. I will go to work tommorrow and buy my new MP3 player.

  • CompUSA's inventory system is FUBAR. They have been working on a way to make inventory checks real time for years. But until they get rid of IMS and get a real database, it won't happen. Always call the store itself if you want information on stock quantities. When you get a live person, ask them where they are at. You are probably talking to the idiots in Dallas and dont' even know it.

  • To finish the thought, here [arcomcontrols.com]' s info on a SBC Media GX board (also has LCD support [arcomcontrols.com]). There's even developme nt kits [arcomcontrols.com].

  • Re:ian (Score:1)

    by mr ( 88570 )
    I don't know how much maketing info they get from me reading slashdot, but hey.....if they find it useful, ok fine.
  • *smile*
    And for the last 3 days, the main web site that the box accesses has said

    HTTP/1.1 Server Too Busy

    Note: The keyboard the webserver product uses and the virgin player uses look exactly alike. So the keyboard is some kind of 'standard'
    SWK-8695wt is the model number. Sejin Electron Inc. is the maker of the keyboard.

    Previous reports on this box mumbled something about a 'linux clone' OS. Other mumbling-64 meg of DRAM is on the inside. It has a (unsupported) USB port.

    Prediction: This will go the way of the FreePC people. After some time they will give up, and anyone who has the unit will be able to keep it.

    Also note: The box it came in was from Boundless Technology. Perhaps IAN had something to do with it.
  • These things would be realy cool if they had alittle more ram. Say 32 megs or more then they would make realy cool cheep webservers.
    Another use I can think for them would be home automation controlers. They would be really nice in the home entertaiment center controling the lights using x10 or directly threw the paralle port using a few transistors and relays.
    Any ways nice little boxes.
    One last thought, with those little 180Mhz processors do they have enough power to decompress MP3's?
  • Do you honestly expect that there will never be a single grammatical error in a Slashdot header? Give me a break.

    Some people just have far too much thyme^H^H^H^Hime on their hands.

    In any case, you asked for some attention to be "payed" to basic grammar; obviously, you've forgotten that the correct word is "paid".

    "He who criticizes hypocritically" is synonymous with "he who loses much face".

    Cheers,
    meisenst
  • Amiga 500's had T-10 screws in them. I remember spending some obscene amount of cash (like $25) on buying a screwdriver for mine when I was about 11 so I could upgrade the memory to 2 megs. oh well, back in the day.

  • You know you have a point. This is almost exatly the box I would want (and built using off the shelf components), as far as I'm concerned there are only three problems with the thing. 1) No 5 1/4" external bay (so I couldn't hook up a CD or DVD-rom drive). 2) Internal IDE connector Disabled (it would make life just a little easier if I didn't have to supply an old ISA IDE card). 3) No Network card (I use a cable modem, and I'd rather not use up the PCI slot with a network card).

    With a slightly differant case, and an internal IDE card and modem this could be the worlds best DVD player (assuming of course there was commercial grade DVD software for linux). It'd do full internet (not just web surfing), DVD play back, MP3 play back, and general computing, all for about $400 (you'd have to include the price for a cheep hard drive and a DVD-rom/decoder board). All in all I can't see why they just didn't go that route instead of trying to immitated the failed web TV.

    Remember that where ever you go, whatever you do, the penquin is watching.

  • I was looking at the Websurfer hack (http://www.linux-hacker.net/websurfer/ws.html) and got to thinking about what this thing would really be useful for. I saw a story in MaximumPC a while back ago where they had made a portable MP3 player out of a rack mount case and some special hardware (http://www.maximumpc.com/route66/index.html). The kicker was that the estimated cost was over $1,200 for their system. A little too steep for many people. But this tight little $50 (or $199) contraption, with a little hacking, a big hard drive, and Linux could probably do the same job. The mobo, chip, RAM, and sound card (chip) are already taken care of. All you'd need is some type of display (~$130 vacuum fluorescent display system (http://www.linuxcentral.com/) onto it), the wiring to make it work in a car (Radio Shack), one more 32 MB DIMM RAM piece (~$20 on Pricewatch), and a nice huge 20 GB Hard Drive (~$120 on Price Watch). I probably left a few things out, but the point is that this is potentially a killer sub-$500 (or $700) car MP3 player with enough storage space for a ton of MP3s. If only I had a car....
  • The processor used in the e-machines are Cyrix MII's not the media GX. MediaGX are highly integrate processors (video, and sound card functions are on the processor itself). They use quite a bit less power, and are Very, very cheap.
    Just thought you should know.
  • Jeez, if there's any doubt about the value, WebSurfer should just take a look at those auction prices...



    TangoChaz

    --------------------
  • ROFL!

    If that catches on with webmasters, it could solve a lot of problems!

    Don't like the download agreement? Don't like the age limits? Don't like the licencing agreement? Just Change It!

    I guess this would be Open Source Contracts...


    TangoChaz

    --------------------
  • Anybody have better specs on this thing than what's listed on the page?
  • Theft??? GIVE ME A BREAK. If I opened and tweaked my VCR or one of my PC's, do you think the company would give a flying F? I think they would only care if I wanted a refund if I fried the thing. And then I couldn't blame them because it was my bright idea to go tinkering with a working product. Now... these people care because they thought that the masses would use them for their proprietary ideas, like WebTV and such. So what do they care if we use them for ours? Either make it like EMachines or such that requires you to purchase a contract with MSN or Earthlink or whoever. Don't bitch about it. It's unfortunate though. I wanted to get one of those I-Openers. Imagine, a flat screen computer for $99. That was cool. Ok ok... after I bought or made the mod kit (but I'm lazy, I would have spent the 25 dollars) and then having to purchase a 2.5" HDD (I don't have an old laptop lying around) off of Pricewatch, it would have upped the price. But that would have been a fun hack.

    By the way... this one sucks compared to I-Opener. A) No cool little screen B) What about us that don't use the landline for connectivity (DSL, Cable Modems, etc). I think this one is a waste. Hey, if I Opener goes under financially, would we still be bound to the TOS?

  • Check it [mp3.com] out...the revolution [mp3.com] is happening.

    Well.. the revolution may have been happening..but as of last Friday it's pretty much been put down.

  • You can get a 300 Mhz (cyrix) emachine tower for a measly $279, only $30 more than the price of the websurfer (after the "correction", or w/o the ISP). Of course you would still have to add the wireless keyboard and all. . .Although I would like to hook the thing up to my car and output it to one of those small B&W TVs for mp3, gps, etc.
  • No LCD Screen, I think that's what made the IO such an attractive hack
  • http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPIC ommand=GetResult&HT=1&SortProperty=MetaE ndSort&QUERY=websurfer

    But be prepared, you're bidding against morons willing to pay hundreds of bucks for this thing... /. is in effect!


    OoO
  • chuck wanted to get i-opener, but his friend got one and that was good enough. I-opener have nice flatscreen LCD monitor and look swish in kitchen of college apartment.
    New doohickey seem like need some ugly monitor, but have infrared keyboard, which is nice, but not nice enough.
    I suggest:
    1. take i-opener hack that you have
    2. buy new thingy
    3. Take (and this is the clever part) both doohickeys into a beowulf cluster. put one without monitor in some descrete location, put i-opener someplace pretty.
    4. remove i-opener keyboard
    5. now (i don't know how to do this, but im sure you could) tell i-opener to accept input from other doohickey
    6. you now have twice the power and an infrared keyboard without taking out your solder gun!

    Hey, how about rackmounting these new doohickeys? then these things would actually have a bit of muscle! And yes, before you ask, building frankenfreak computers is my hobby.
  • Secret to Life: Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, B, A, Select, Start
    http://www.world-of-nintendo.com/nintendo/contra .html


    Don't criticise someone who is attempting to use free software for not using enough free software.
  • Stolen off a paper, dated 04/28/2000, I got at work. I'm a Service Writer at the Columbia, MD location, if anyone cares.

    "The Websurfer systems selling for $49.99 (sku 271198) require a 2-year commitment by the customer to the Earthlink ISP."

    You can buy them for $199.99, which is still pretty darn good, without getting any service contract. They ring up at that price at the register, and we have to go through about 8 steps to get the lower price - they're supposed to be stored in a "location NOT available to the customer", and the contract has to be signed, credit card verified, etc. I try to avoid selling them.

  • Since the backpanel location for the PCI and ISA slots are shared, it seems like it would be possible to use both at the same time if one didn't require the use of that backpanel. Like the I/O cards that let you detach each connector from the metal plate and relocate them to the predesignated locations on the back of your case. This thing already has I/Os (a few anyway), so someone somewhere would probably find a use for both (ethernet & [io | controllers | ??])

  • Re:ian (Score:1)

    by TwP ( 149780 )
    IMHO, since they are offering this dirt-cheap web appliance and since they are not charging any internet subscription fees, it would appear that the WebPlayer is purely a market research device.

    Consider the fact that they require you to surf the web for at least ten hours per month. They also require you to supply them with any information that they request at any time (section 5.4 of the user agreement). With about 99.99684% accuracy, I can guarantee that they will be tracking your websurfing habbits and then selling that information to any corporation with cash.

    Using this little dohickey would be equivalent to running Doubleclick's web-tracking software right on your own machine -- it's one big cookie that you pay $50 a year to use, and they won't let you hack it either (section 2.2 of the user agreement).

    In the words of Monty Python: "Run away! Run away! Run away!"
    ------------------------------------------ ----------------------

  • Now they're so common, you can go to any security system distributor worth its salt and get a combo screwdriver that has all the common Tor-X sizes for about $10.
  • Actually, I would like to see a Beowulf cluster of hacked Furbys!
  • This would be sooo easy to convert into a Citrix client, instead of a $500 winterm. Or use it as a x workstation, so that i can surf from other rooms or have a central database and access it from most rooms in my house. Sell 5 of these for start of an automated house! (add x10 and interface it into these boxes) Neil
  • If a company were to design a cheap, hackable device that could be adapted to use by home hobbyists, they would have trouble convincing anyone that they would ever sell more than a few thousand units. With no sustainable revenue source and only small unit sales, there would never be a business case to go into something like this.

    Um, hello? They don't have to design it.. it already exists. Both the Websurfer and the i-Opener (and a dozen other web appliances, I'm sure) already fit the bill. All they have to do is sell the same machine with two contracts: one for $50-$100, but with a 2 year internet contract and one for $200-$300, with no contract at all. They just have to sell the machines they _already_ have, with no modifications. This would get them in good graces with the geek crowd as well as being a alternate revenue stream. It would also probably result in some free R & D and beta testing for them.

    josh sisk
  • That didn't work for Commodore. The Amiga 500 was screwed shut with torx screws. I've never been unable to open one with a flat blade screwdriver. I have some torx screwdrivers somewhere though (can't remember where).
  • If there were no market for a fully hackable version of boxes such as the I-opener, then why was Netpliance so worried about loosing a bunch of money on the hardware hacks? I think that the market is bigger than these people think.
  • I have personally DRIVEN in my car 1hr round trip to the nearest CompUSA. Here is what I found:
    1: They are $199. A special rebate for $150 off is available FROM the manufacturer. You will not walk out of the store with a machine for $49.99.
    2: They were pulled from the shelves before the doors opened today.
    3: CompUSA has been making changes to their Inventory system and it is NOT real time. I called ahead to check and they had two. When I got in the store they had 0 in stock. They are currently working on a way to make inventory checks real time. Until then, all inventory checks come from Dallas.

    In other words, DON'T waste your time; these people are smarter then Netpliance.
  • As a 'doze user myself, I simply do not understand what the difference would be between "websurfers" of different o/s basis. From my understanding, a websurfer is probably a "web-tv" equivalent which can only surf the net (correct me please if I'm wrong). What's the difference between using a Linux or Windows websurfer box? Different browsers?
  • They are all sold out at all the stores in my area. Too bad, those would have made for a good car mp3 player. Oh well, back to the hunt for something that will work, maybe a laptop with a cracked screen?
  • Contrary to the people who said it doesn't exist, a coworker and I just went and bought two of these suckers at the local CompUSA for $50/each. The sales droid noted that these things are selling unusually well, but didn't ask us to sign the contract.

    It's worth trying, at the very least.
    ----------------------------
  • It looks to me like you have to sign up for 2 years of service in order to qualify for the rebate. So this machine really isn't a $50 toy,
    unless of course you want to get their service :)
  • I think that these devices are a great idea, but can we really expect them to be happy about us running linux on them when they are really just terminals for a subscription service.

    Don't get me wrong, I love linux and would like to have one of these.

    My question is this. Are these machines really this cheap or are they recouping thier costs with the service. I suspect that it is the service.

    Perhaps they could offer a slightly more expensive version of these devices for linux users who aren't going to use their service. This would, i think, alieviate the problems with losing revenue.

    Binder
  • it may be morally ambiguous, but my opinion is that business models that depend on hiding information from the user, or on giving the user a package with limited rights on what s/he may do with it, are not healthy for the company, and even less for society as a whole. so I would support laws going in the opposite direction: that things are sold, and that any company trying to make money from "side channels" does so at their own risk, and that users are perfectly allowed to sidestep said channels.
  • People want these cheezy/cheap PCs. This WebSurfer machine, especially with its TV-out, reminds me of Commodore's ahead-of-it's-time CDTV. CDTV was really an Amiga 500 packaged in what looked like a regular audio CD player -- something that would look at home on your stereo rack. But it was really a general-purpose computer in disguise, and you could do just about anything you could imagine with it.
    I used to have a CDTV. In fact, I've had two, with the first stolen. I now have an Olivetti Envision [google.com]. Both were black hi-fi component-style PCs with some sort of remote control and a video out. They rock, but they're not "cheap". I hacked a simple switch on my CDTV so it would run exactly like an Amiga 500. Had a keyboard, a couple of floppy drives... The Envision started life as a P75, but since then I've upgraded it using an Evergreen Spectra 333 (AMD K6-2 running at 300 on a 60MHz bus). I use it as an MP3 alarm clock, etc and for Distributed.Net and SETI@home. Some lovely hardware, but the drivers are shocking. If anyone's written Win95 drivers for the console or the MPEG board, give me a call.
  • 200 Rebate from EarthLink!

    Upon purchasing the Innovator WebSurfer Pro Set-Top Internet Appliance
    customers have the option to choose one of the following:

    a) To qualify for WebSurfer's $200 rebate, customers must establish a new
    Earthlink (formerly MindSpring) Internet access account with a commitment of
    24 months at $24.95 per month. Account must be in good standing at time of
    rebate request.
    b) Customers can register for the month-to-month billing plan of $24.95 a
    month with a designated Internet Service Provider. Month-to-month billing
    accounts do not qualify for the $200 rebate.
    c) Customers can use their own Internet Service Provider but will incur a
    monthly fee of $14.95 in addition to the cost of their Internet access (may not
    be compatible with all Internet Service Providers that do not support PAP or
    CHAP and online services such as AOL & Prodigy).

    A one-time, non-refundable activation fee of $49.90 applies to all accounts at
    time of registration which includes full registration and free upgrades.
  • ...already 23 (and counting) of 'em on ebay [ebay.com]

    *grin*
  • What made the I-opener cool was it came with a flat screen. When was the last time you priced a 180 cyrix system without a hard disk? Yeah...about $50. deep thoughts.
    ---
  • It's not your fault if they price something too low to make a profit on it.

    I remember reading somewhere (it could be false) but something likg 2/3 of all new businesses fail.

    They had ample time to change their practices after the iopener thing happened.

    LK
  • Here's their online store. You pay $250, sign up for Earthlink and hold your earthlink account until you get the $200 rebate check. But I bet they'll start to delay the rebate checks while this is going on ;-)

    The "use your own ISP" option looks interesting. That's what I'd do if I were going to use this thing, but then I don't know how you'd go about canceling it (you could say that you canceled your service and the box was useless to you)

    What a gamble... better business model than the i-opener because they can just screw ppl out of their rebate checks if something like this happens... then the company gets sued, but all the while they've got your cash and are making more!

    Here's the url to buy it. [shopwebstore.com]

  • I read somewhere over the weekend that there is already a Linux hack for the "new, improved" i-opener. Anyone got that link?
    --
  • http://www.virginconnectme.com/ [virginconnectme.com]

    They charge $100 for 3 years. This one has lcd and all. The catch: you use it at least 10 hours a month, if you want to quit and/or don't use 10 hours/month, they'll cancel your membership and you'll be charged $200-$500 (depending on when you cancel).

    Maybe someone can put a hot swamp hd on it! It's very cheap anyway!

    CY


    /_____\
    vvvvvvv../|__/|
    ...I../O,O....|
    ...I./. .......|
    ..J|/^.^.^ \..|.._//|
    ...|^.^.^.^.|W|./oo.|

  • Some things you may want to note:
    • Unlike the i-opener, it does not come with its own monitor, although the infra-red keyboard is nice. Too bad all the extra monitors I have laying around are busted...
    • It does come with a requirement to buy two years of ISP service, but retailers aren't currently enforcing it, it seems.
    • The rumor is that the $50 price was a retailer's error. Maybe someone could set the story straight here.
    -JD
  • You can forget about finding one of these for $50 now that WIRED [wired.com] has picked up the story [wired.com].

    The story [wired.com] has some comments from the guy behind the hacks, it turns out that it hasn't really been very lucrative selling the kits. They also ask him what he plans to hack next, to which he says he may look at the MailStation [mailstation.com], but has dismissed VIRGIN's i-apppliance since the service contract is unavoidable.

    You would think that especially after the i-opener, and the MSN rebate debacles, the lawyers for WebSurfer would have taken a second look at their agreements with all their retailers to ensure the device would not be sold without a binding ISP contract.

  • other than the gratuitious "imagine a beowulf cluster" comment . . .

    in actuallity, you'd need a good dozen of these before a cluster is really effective, particularly beowulf-style. Agreed, this is a pretty cost-efficient way of doing it (going for about the price of an old 486, and with a little more muscle. That and you'd have to alter all your code to work with a cluster system, so the applications you'd run on it would be completely different. So before dropping the cash, you really need to decide what you want to do with it, not just to say you have a cluster (but if you have the spare disposable income, rock on with your bad self! Or give some to me).

    If you're looking at two boxes (the iOpeners have really nice monitors, I agree), a better way to do it might be to network the boxes with a REALLY fast card, and convince the system it's really one SMP box instead of two. That way you can still tweak code, but run normal applications on it if you want. Then you can do something other than crunch inordinate amounts of numbers.

    It's a good hobby, keep at it :-)

    incidentally, "holy joe" by Haysi Fantayzee is a great bouncy song to hardware hack to. I only mention this because I'm listening to it now :-)
  • Aside from the fancy case and custom supply, this is nothing more than a $70 MediaGX installed systems board! You can prolly snag one at the next computer swap meet, complete with TV-out and onboard sound.

    It is a cool hack tho..
  • I have a couple boxes with the 200mhz MediaGX chips in them (bought them for $50/ea several months ago.) I did manage to get Linux running on them, but not reliably at all. Who knows, maybe this box will run it better, but just be aware that you might be wasting $50.

    There's a little technical info about the problems available here [linuxgrrls.org]. According to Kira:

    "...the cache controller is totally, completely, and utterly fubar. It basically doesn't work. It has difficulty in maintaining coherency between the instruction and data caches and this causes gradually-increasing system instability."

    This may not be the case with the 180mhz chip--anyone had any luck with the 180 & Linux?

    numb
  • So the picture is pretty, and it appears to have a screen, modem, and browser, and costs a small amount of money in return for lots of marketing tracking data. But what can you *do* with it? Is there a disk or other file system, or can you add one? Can you install software? Does the browser support Java? Can you turn Javascript/ActiveX/Dangerware off? Can you use real email, or only webemail?

    How long can you stay dialed up and inactive - does "10 hours per month" mean you need to tap the keyboard every few minutes, or can you dial up one evening a month and let it stay on all night?

    Can you dial into other ISPs? (e.g. dial into your home Linux machine's modem?) If you do all your browsing through The Anonymizer [anonymizer.com], can they track anything?

  • The Internet Appliance was supposed to replace the PC, not be converted into one. It seems that there are more people buying these contraptions simply to hack on them than for the "as-intended" use!

    --
  • well, this looks rocking. the problem is-how soon before we find a loophole like with the iopener and really piss a company off? when will there be a respectable cheap-hardware manufacturer? i don't know...but hacking the hardware, albeit cool and fun and all, could cause some problems. but now that that's said and done, i got $50 burning a hole in my pocket...

    "the problem may have been that there was a stonehenge monument on the stage that was in danger of being crushed by a dwarf!" - David St. Hubbins

  • Hmm...this is rather interesting...when you fill out the member application the 'Member Agreement' is in a text box at the bottom of the form. An _editable_ text box. When I filled out my application I removed the 'not' from section 2.2 and hit 'i agree'. Processed without errors.
  • Right now www.i-opener-linux.net is responding to pings, but the web server isn't responding.

    Does anybody know what's up? I finally got a thin enough hard drive for my i-o this weekend and now I need one of those special cables.
  • I guess it was just my bad timing. It's up again.
  • Of course, the halfassed solution for this is for companies to start using Torx screws, like those found on your power supply. You wouldn't believe how many people are too lazy to buy another screwdriver..
  • I managed to get one of these 'cause I frequented the linux-hacker.net site and saw the discussions as they happened. Apparently the deal was, this device has been out since atleast December at $199.99... you could use it with their service for $23/mo or you could use your own ISP (at whatever cost) and the Websurfer company would charge you $14.95 for that ability (I guess you could use NetZero or something and only pay the $14.95 for the use of the device)...

    The $49.99 deal was with Earthlink... Pay for 2 years upfront (sign up in the store at time of purchase), and they'll give you the device for 50 bucks. Unfortunately, as a CompUSA manager told me, they were under contract only to sell Prodigy service with their computers, and selling Earthlink would violate this agreement. (The manager said this was explained to him by an Earthlink representative.)

    So... CompUSA was starting a big push, and advertised the device WITH OUT ANY FINE PRINT at $49 on their website, and listed as an "In Store Only" Item...

    Some people got them, some didn't... Stores even in the same town had different policies decided for several days by each store manager (some of them didn't even know what the heck the thing was).

    It is my understanding that since those days of inconsistency (Probably April 23rd-29th), the stores have since made some action to prevent this discounted sale.

    It's a propreitary Cyrix device, and is fairly nice for the price, but you do have to add harddrives, or mess with the internal QNX software. TV Output is typical basic 640x480 scan conversion. There are other features on the motherboard that could add onboard IDE support, network support, audio in, etc... so it is a fun toy to see what all you can do with it.

    AntiPasto

  • I applaud the ingenuity and effeort required to come up with one of these consumer-device hacks. Converting an I-Opener/WebSurfer/other 'embedded' system into a nearly fully-functional PC is a great project, and can be great fun for personal use (MP3 players, smart-home controllers, etc).

    However, I see at least one potential problem down the road if companies attempting to bundle services with hardware find any new device built on commodity hardware standards immediately ripped open and repurposed. Have we all forgotten that we live in the age of the DMCA? Proprietary, closed standards, systems, and software are not dead, and the major corporations whose bread and butter come from providing products and services no one else can replicate simply due to the obfuscation of their workings can be counted on to protect their interests in court.

    What ever happened to the true DIY attitude of computer hobbyists and hackers? It may feel great to see that cute little plastic appliance booting Linux, but that doesn't mean you've actually built something, just stood on the shoulders of countless other engineers and programmers to give yourself a feeling of technological prowess.

    Basically, if you know what you think a perfect system would be, pull together some people and build the damn thing! There's no reason that open hardware construction couldn't be just as sucessful as open software, and Sony won't be sending out the lawyer ninja to kick anyone's ass for building their own homebrew hardware.
  • I found this when looking for more info on the MediaGX board on google.
    http://ww w.arcomcontrols.com/products/icp/pc104/processors/ SBCMediaGX.htm [arcomcontrols.com]
    No mention of price though. Mabe someone could put together a cheep Webplayer Wannabe bundel made to be a cheep linux box. I think there is a market for this. Mabe a "GeekBox"... a "SlashBox"? hummm....
  • Is anyone actually surprised at this? I mean, your average Linux hacker and hardware guru would hack a furby [phobe.com] and run Linux on it, if it were possible!
    --
    "You take a distribution! Rename! Stamp CD's! IPO!"
    - CmdrTaco, Geeks in Space, Episode 2 from 6:18 to 6:23.

  • Quick Math check (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday May 01, 2000 @04:20AM (#1100136)
    49.95 * 1.0825 (sales tax here is 8.25%) == 54.07

    24.95 * 24 == 598.80

    598.80 + 54.07 == 652.87

    199.95 * 1.0825 = 216.45

    Total money saved by using their ISP offer == - 436.42

    Sounds like a deal that really sucks to me.
  • The chip has the following problems we know about

    1. Some XFree releases have a lot of bugs in MediaGX support. Use 3.3.3.1 or 3.3.6

    2. The RDTSC handling is funny. Linux will disable
    the TSC and handle it fine

    3. The SB emulation has bugs. 2.2.15 has workarounds for both the DMA counter bug and the DMA emulation bug.

    4. The PCI bridge is a bit dim. Its fine for most stuff but put a tv capture card there and you may have issues. Its not clear whose fault that is

    Otherwise its a good little CPU, it has 16K cache only but with good latency and the video from main memory does hit performance. Figure P120-P150 for a MediaGX 180Mhz.

    Alan

  • ian (Score:3)

    by haledon ( 43675 ) on Monday May 01, 2000 @04:29AM (#1100138)

    http://www.virginconnectme.com/ [virginconnectme.com]

    this product is put out by a company called ian (internet appliance network). i had the opportunity to meet the guy who created this little piece of hardware. i can tell you that up front, the hardware is very sexy looking. i don't know much about the insides, but i *do* know that they are already working on a second generation, and they are hoping to support broadband access in that one.

    the current model is limited to a supply of around 10,000, first come first serve.

    the deal is you pay $50 a year for 3 years and agree to be online for 10 hours a month. that's it.

    oh, and BTW, they fully invite you to hack it and run whatever OS you want, provided you stay online at least 10 hours a month. (at least that's what i was told a week and a half ago.)

  • ...here's the FAQ for the Websurfer [websurfer.com], it is a set top box that plugs into a TV and allows internet access (i.e. It turns your TV into a WebTV).

  • Re:i-opener, TNG. (Score:4)

    by Slef ( 8700 ) on Monday May 01, 2000 @04:00AM (#1100140)
    go to [i-opener-linux.net]
    http://www.i-opener-linux.net and look around.
    There are lots of new hacks with or w/o opening the
    box.

  • Theft? (Score:4)

    by JamesSharman ( 91225 ) on Monday May 01, 2000 @03:58AM (#1100141)
    If this is anything like the i-opener then the machine costs more than it is sold for with the intention of making some back on subscription. Am I the only one who feels that this kind of hack is a little morally ambiguous at best? I know that is probably not against the fact of the law but in a world where we are taking stands against unjust law left right and center should we not be respecting the intent of deals like this?

  • Wrong -- do some fact checking (Score:5)

    by davidu ( 18 ) on Monday May 01, 2000 @03:58AM (#1100142) Homepage Journal
    The WebSurfer is $199.

    They have a deal if you sign up for two years of Earthlink it is $49.99.

    some people were able to get by this cuz the workers at CompUSA were stupid. They wised up, real fast.
    -Davidu

  • No, it's not theft (Score:5)

    by Phaid ( 938 ) on Monday May 01, 2000 @04:14AM (#1100143) Homepage
    Hey look, these guys put out a neat little terminal that gets people onto the internet and lets the company make tons of money from ISP subscriptions. That's great. But if they screw up their end-user agreement such that it's possible for anyone to buy the thing at a low price without obligation to purchase the ISP, that's their fault. If I then come along and modify the thing to do what I want, I own it, I'm not violating anything, and I can do what I very well please with it. It's not like these guys are some kind of charity and we're blatantly violating the spirit of some covenental agreement we signed with them that happens to have a loophole in it ; we're doing what we want with something we own.

    People get taken for a ride by the twisted wording of licencing agreements, credit card terms, and tons of other fine print every day. If it turns out that one of these big boys inadvertently gives everyone a much better deal than they originally intended, there is nothing legally or morally wrong with taking advantage of that.

    Frankly, what really is disgusting, and IMO morally wrong, is for companies like iOpener to then turn around and cry outrage and blame "hackers" for "lost revenue". It's typical of our corporate culture to pass the buck for your own screw ups, and the iOpener fiasco is just another example of their willingness to scapegoat anything non mainstream to get their way.

    At any rate, I was all excited about getting one for $50, to play MP3s on, but for $199 (and with all the other pieces parts I have lying around) I can build something just as good and more expandable.

    Happy Beltaine!

  • Attractive-looking embedded PCs (Score:5)

    by Sloppy ( 14984 ) on Monday May 01, 2000 @05:28AM (#1100144) Homepage Journal

    Beyond the obvious "it's cheap because it's intended to be bundled with a service" similarity, there's another thing that this machine and the I-Opener have in common: they are physically small (they don't take up a lot of space) and a bit underpowered compared to today's mainstream PC, which is one of the reasons that they _can_ be so cheap.

    People want these cheezy/cheap PCs. This WebSurfer machine, especially with its TV-out, reminds me of Commodore's ahead-of-it's-time CDTV. CDTV was really an Amiga 500 packaged in what looked like a regular audio CD player -- something that would look at home on your stereo rack. But it was really a general-purpose computer in disguise, and you could do just about anything you could imagine with it.

    There's demand for this stuff, but it seems like the manufacturers are missing something. They seem to think that if a device is targeted as having a specific embedded purpose, then it doesn't need to be programmable. (Do any of these guys remember the personal computer market of the early 80s?!?) That's one of the reasons people are trying to rip out the embedded QNX (or whatever) and stick Linux on them. Some users want to really customize these machines to do whatever THEY want.

    And that gives me an idea. When I was picking out components for my firewall/music box, I didn't really _want_ a conventional PeeCee case. I wanted something that would fade into the background and look inconspicuous, like a stereo component. I checked out a few Micro-ATX cases, but for various reasons, nothing was quite right for me. So I gave up on the idea and got a minitower (but at least it was a cool one [coolermaster.com] ;-).

    I think the world wants more variety in computer cases. And no, I don't mean another iMac clone. Start with the old pizza box or generic audio component size, make sure it has room on the front for

    • a DVD/CD drive
    • maybe a Matrix Orbital [matrix-orbital.com] display
    • an IR port
    make it BLACK, then somehow figure out a way to put a regular-sized ATX motherboard in it, while also figuring out a way to cool it sufficiently. This would totally kick ass, and I think it would sell well to amateur hobbyists that want to build their _own_ appliances.

    Alas, I think the computer industry doesn't recognize the existence of hobbyists anymore.


    ---
  • After being available for a day or two at CompUSA for the $49.95 price, the WebSurfer has disappeared, both from the shelves and from the CompUSA website.

    The most informed speculation is that the price reduction (from $200 to $49.95) was intended to be for a bundle of the box plus internet service.

    Comments on the websurfer-hacker mailing list [feedle.net] suggest that these boxes are not as useful as the I-opener

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