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Hardware

Inexpensive Linux/BSD Handhelds 184

Posted by CmdrTaco from the wouldn't-it-be-nice dept.
cloudscout writes, "The latest craze in handheld computing isn't the new Palm IIIc, it's the IBM WorkPad z50 currently being unloaded at ridiculously low prices by all sorts of discount Internet retailers. This device runs Windows CE 2.11 by default, however, a successful NetBSD Port means that this device could be the first widespread *NIX handheld. There's even a Linux Port in the works. The initial blowout saw these devices selling for under $250, but the huge demand has driven that price up to the $400 range now. Still cheap for a nearly full-sized system with 640x480 color LCD. "
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Inexpensive Linux/BSD Handhelds

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  • I had a hand held.. (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    ..once by a girl named Suzy. She was cute, but her third leg really caused the other kids to laugh. Boy, could she run fast though, until the bus hit her. Oh, I know what you're thinking, it was the short bus. Nope, full size.

    -slo bob

  • Possible uses?? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Could this be used to make a Beowulf cluster [freesexmovies.net]?
  • Yeah, it does, I checked it against bc a while back. It's pretty impressive, actually.

    ...but my favorite 'pi' program would have to be the Obfuscated C Contest entry that had a function that looked like a circle, and it said "To get a better approximation for Pi, write a bigger program." And it ran that function to mostly calculate Pi. I won't spoil the rest of it for you. :)
    ---
    pb Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate [152.7.41.11].
  • Why do you assume that "Use the source, Luke!" refers to everyone? Okay, think of the obvious Jedi reference, or Luke in particular. In Lucas's little universe, was everyone a Jedi? Did everyone go around doing Jedi mind tricks? No. Those who had the power did so. Think about law enforcement, at least in the United States. If someone commits murder, does the average citizen go kill the killer? Hopefully, no. Those who are empowered to do so, do so, whether we agree with it or not. So, what am I getting at? If you can do this sort of coding on your own, then for God's sake, do it! The source code is there. If not, there's probably a commercial product available, or, if you're willing, go to CoSource and *pay* someone to develop it. Grandma doesn't have to develop the software herself. But if she is capable of doing so, she may, without having to purchase expensive compilers, without having to purchase OS source code, and hopefully without having to sign an NDA.
  • Why did this troll get a score of 2? Just curious, because I want to know how some asshole can get a score of 2 just for showing his/her ass to the public.

    Seriously, guys, please stop bumping up "gee, sounds like a loser idea to me whenever I've already got better" and "this has been posted before" bozos that apparently do nothing more than sit slack-jawed at their computers, giggling with glee when they see a new story pop up, and take the opportunity to flame the folks at Slashdot for possible having the gall to post a story a second time, or post a story well after another site has.

    Jesus, people, get fucking lives.
  • Heh, that's the ticket! :^)
  • Man, it's a shame you posted your real name on that one.

    (Made ya look!)

  • Am I just missing it or is there no listing of the hard drive space that they come with?

    All of the links that have the specs make the point that you can upgrade to 48MB memory easily. But, I did not see a single reference to storage space.

    Can anyone here enlighten me?
  • Not nearly as grumpy as non-Intel Linux fans...

    --

  • Last month, I bought a clearance laptop (Dell LM P90, 16 MB RAM, 1 Gig HD, and 640*480 active matrix display) for $500 Canadian. ... I don't know about these pda's or sub-laptops, but I think they must get a lot cheaper before they can compete with out-of-date computers.

    Good for you. But I'm guessing your laptop has less than 6 hours of battery life. That makes it next to useless as far as I'm concerned. I'd say for $500, you were ripped off. On the other hand, this device looks to be worth about that...

    --

  • So.. anyone know somewhere in the UK I
    could find one of these?
  • You can find a bunch of these at ebay. it seems that you'll end up paying a little over $300.

    Somehow, I doubt you'll get them at $300 now that everyone who's selling them are being /.'ed.. ;)

  • got one! (Score:1)

    by hime ( 5963 )
    Bought one a few weeks back on the recommendation of MSNBC, at $300. Already have a Palm IIIe, but told myself I'd find something to do with it. Haven't successfully installed telnet yet and Windows CE Services suck ass, otherwise I'd read my shell mail in comfort laying on my bed instead of sitting at my big box.

    Now I just have to figure out if I'm up to learning how to get NetBSD onto it and maybe I'll be set. That and a network card. Yay!
  • And Linux already runs on that... sorta :)
    ----
  • The Z50 has pcmcia, and runs the NetBSD drivers for all supported ethernet, serial and wireless cards, so there is no trouble running you Z50
    with any sort of net connectivity (including mobile) that you like!
  • To compete, they just need a >2 hour battery life...
  • Pfffft is that all?

    I think I'll hang on to my Thinkpad 701, it's about the same size (just a bit thicker) and it has a bigger screen. Runs Debian just fiiine too. Excellent for playing nethack on train trips. And the folding 'butterfly' keyboard impresses people. :-)

    Too bad the battery is dying, though... Anyone know where I can get replacement batteries for a 701C in .nl?

  • Because you'll spend a week trying to work around problems, and then give up, because it still doesn't work?

    The server for my card didn't work until I patched it - for some reason, locking the console locked up the machine, and the API never returned. After working around this, xinit wouldn't work unless I was root. You need a beta (?) version of Watcom C to compile XFree86, and I wasn't willing to put that on a machine where I compile production code. I ended up putting off getting it to work for the forseeable future.

    Mind you, the X11R5 package we got from QSSL was just as bad, and never worked either.
  • He was probably moderated up becuse he has a valid point, and some people may be interested in hearing it. For example, if I didn't already own a Toshiba Libretto running linux, I'd probably have gone out and bought one of these. Then I'd have realized that it's not everything I wanted, then I'd discover that I could've got a "real" laptop in the same form factor for the same price, then I'd get bitter.

    Then maybe I'd post an article to slashdot that talks about x86 mininotebooks that run linux and BSD, and some people would think "gee that's cool" and buy those and maybe not like them as much as they'd like a z50.

    The point is that it is worthwhile to discuss alternatives in the same forum as the thing itself, therefore allowing readers to compare options and think for themselves.

  • Let's see tote arouns something the size of my laptop?? heck why buy an underpowered junkmachine like that when for the same cash you can get a pentium laptop (P120-133) for the same price used!

    anything that cant be operated while running is NOT a palmtop.
  • Well, why bother buying a 1st generation crusoe machine when in a few months after they 1st ship, better ones will be available? And after that, you know, the next set of machines wil lbe even better.

    No.

    If someone needs a machine today, they should buy one today. The machines tomorrow will always be much better. After 15 or 20 years of desktop computers, hasn't that lesson been learnt yet?
  • How about the itsy [digital.com]?
  • Well, I haven't ever used a palmtop... But what I am looking for is a cheap box that can run any unix so that I can have an MP3 Player, that can have a wireless ethernet card, a microphone, speakers, web cam. I want them to be cheap so that I can put them around the house and have one to go on the road with.. (Portable MP3 Player / PDA)

    I don't know if the current stock of palmtop/pda machines can really have all of these features (no USB port, no PCMCIA, parallel port, serial port, etc) Let alone the ability to run lynx over the wireless ethernet card.. (Or maybe netscape with a special version of X)..

    The possibilities for a small PC are much greater than the current crop of PDA/Palms...

    Dont you think?
  • I looked at the IBM WorkPad page [ibm.com], but it seems to be for an IBM-branded Palm Pilot. I don't see any reference to a WinCE or 640x480 color system.

    What's the deal here?


  • Yes, there were 186's. But they were soon superceded by the blazing might of the 286 a few months later, so no one used them.

    ~~~~~~~~~
    auntfloyd
  • http://www.pricewatch.com/. Do a search on IBM Workpad z50. Good hunting.
  • I'd have to agree in waiting for a Crusoe for myself anyways.

    I'm not a Linux expert so for people like me it's nice to be able to put a standard copy of Mandrake 7 on a machine and just download x86 rpms of which there are many.

    I'd also like to be able to play quake on it ;)

    -idealego
  • Ok so maybe I'm not that old(14)

    And not so crotchety('hey damn kids get off my lawn')

    But I happen to find my IBM personal portable computer JUST FINE thank you. In case of wondering yes it is that 30 pound _portable_ offered by IBM back sometime long ago. It cost me 5 bucks. It has a blazin 186 processor, and 612 whole kb of ram(with a delay time soooo slow it takes 30 seconds to count it all up during boot). But yeah baby, I can MOVE on this badboy. It has a full sized 8 inch CRT monitor built in. No hd to slow it down, and 2-count 'em 2 5.25inch floppy drives.

    When I was a kid(wait i still am) we didn't have these Ninos and Palmpilots. You'd be lucky if you're "laptop" didn't crush your manlihood beyond recognition. The only thing we had to worry about screwing our transistors was rats(you're wimpy Pentiums getting screwed up by radiation, ha, ha).

    I like to fire up my blazin 186 every now and then and goat over how much _faster_ mine is that both MIR and all the Apollo spacecraft. I'll take my 186 with 612kb of ram anyday over you're winCE devices, ick.

    (And before you come over and beat me senseless with you're "mice" yes I am joking)
  • YES! Just the thing I was looking for. Finally I can put this Cassiopeia E-15
    to do something useful - wait... nooo... there's no mips-linux nor mips-netbsd
    port of setiathome :(
  • Have you checked out the Qbit [qubit.net]? Looks to be a little more fleshed out than the ScreenMedia. Sounds like they'll have product out in the next few Q's. I also question whether the ScreenMedia (as described) is U.S. ready.
  • Why am I going to spend $800 (after I finish upgrading the system to have even less capability than the one I have now) for a machine that only runs experimental Linux ports?

    Becuase it's not $800. You can get it right now for less than $400. If you were lucky (like me), you could have ordered one when it was less than $300 (shipped!).

    Now I just have to get a Compact Flash and figure out how I can dual boot WinCE and NetBSD/hpcmips. Oh, oh; I think I'm about to geek-out.
  • I don't know about you all, but I'm still holding out for something like the ScreenMedia device [screenmedia.no] that was discussed a few months ago on Slashdot.

    I want to be able to read the Wall Street Journal on-line edition and Slashdot at the breakfast table, or in bed, or on the couch without having to worry about a keyboard and mouse. The ScreenMedia device seems to be the perfect wireless solution.

    Anyone have new information? Their website looks the same as it did months ago...

  • I looked at the IBM WorkPad page, but it seems to be for an IBM-branded Palm Pilot. I don't see any reference to a WinCE or 640x480 color system.

    Right make, wrong model. Take a look here [zdnet.com]for a ZDNet review.
  • yes!

    let me repeat that

    yes!

    From my laptop, I want a big screen, good keyboard, large harddrive, long batterylife. Notice how processor speed a was abstent from my requirements. I'm thinking a 486 or even a 386 (hell all I do is use emacs anyway) would do me just fine.

    Hey laptop makers! lookie here! This is a market segment waiting for your attention.

    Johan
  • Stability is paramount in any palmtop w/o external storage. If a crash will kill your saved work, you'll never be able to trust the machine with _any_ work.

    I've actually been toying with completely unmounting my harddrive in my laptop -- it has enough ram to hold a decent sized ramdisk and still have enough memory to work out of. By completely spinning down the harddisk, I hope to be able to extend the battery life to almost an hour (So I was a cheapskate and bought the noname brand. Now I'm paying for it). The only reason I would be willing to do this is because I know that my system is stable enough never to crash.
  • For some reason, slash adds random spaces to my sig! I don't know why but it may be because my sig is over the max length.

    If i erase that space, another random space is inserted somewhere else!

    :-(

  • I don't think they ment the x86 version of OS X...
    they probally ment they havent developed PPC morphing

    -my .001 JWLS
  • The WorkPad z50 was the only CE device made by IBM. Other WorkPads are Palm devices (rebranded PalmPilot Pro, Palm III, and Palm V), usually bundled with a Notes client or somesuch.

    I say "was" because at the time of the WorkPad z50 price drop, IBM had already dropped it from its store and elsewhere on its site. I presume it's in the process of being discontinued. Not that that's an issue so much, with a CE 3.0 coming RSN, and ongoing ports of NetBSD and (at least in theory) Linux.

    WorkPad z50 specs:
    131MHz MIPS VR4131 CPU
    16MB RAM
    8.4" passive-matrix display, 640x480
    1 PCMCIA Type 2
    1 CF slot
    Upgrade socket for 32MB SO-DIMM
    VGA out
    mic in/spkr out
    TrackPoint (that's right, no touch screen.)

    Sorry, this is all from memory, as mine is currently _in the shop_. Doh!
  • CE devices don't have hard drives. The RAM is divided between system memory and object space.
  • "So why bother with the old stuff?"

    I'm going to wait for the time-machine cpu. This will be a cpu that sends itself far enough back in time for each process to complete just after it has started. That way, I can start a job that will take years and years of cpu-time, but to me will finish instantaneously.

    Where am I going to get such a machine? Well, I'm sure that they are available in the future, so I'll just wait for a future-me to send one back. Hey, a package just appeared on my desk...


    Mike van Lammeren
  • You can find a bunch of these at ebay. it seems that you'll end up paying a little over $300. Not a bad deal if you ask me.
    Here's the link on Ebay [ebay.com]
  • The prices haven't gone up that much. Besides is eBay some kind of a secret that nobody knows about. Maybe a few years ago but not anymore.
  • Are they very hard to get a hold of? I'm thinking that here in Canada they might be especially hard to find.
  • 8 months ago I bought a p233 w/mmx with 32 megs of ram, '95, 3gig hd for $900 off of ubid.
    It's not bad, but I'm selling it off now for $600, I don't use it anymore, I got a better job and don't do tech anymore :P It was only usefull then when I had a t3 to jack into to exploit the bandwith of off my laptop, the nic card I got as much as I paid for it back when I sold it recently also.

    Laptops are somewhat nice, but really they're damn near useless in every day work for me, but when I worked tech it was great to bring my own comp and not deal with a shared pc(yuck). But when the servers you work on are several hundred miles a way whats the point? I don't really need to check my email in the car, come on now lets get serious whats the point?

    You people are overreacting to a bottom of the line pos wanna-be laptop, true it's nice and thin but no mussle. I bet you own a webphone don't ya, come on now admit it you spent that extra money to get 3 lines of yahoo! on your phone. We need a slashdot pda, one that has only 4 functions:
    1. read slashdot.org
    2. check stock quotes
    3. telnet
    4. mp3 player
    with a huge battery life of a week or more, running a curosoe.

    When are they going to make some decent batteries? Maybe I should just carry a gasoline generator and plug the ac adaptor into it? I love that 2 ~ 3 hour battery life my lappy packed without power saving modes.
  • Ok upon checking the net the Workpad z50 seems to actually be priced around $1000.00 dollars not the $250.00 - $400.00 range mentioned in the article. However the IBM Workpad Companion is more of a regualr PDA and is priced in the range. It however runs runs something called Wordpad O/S not Windows CE (can't execute?). The Wordpad z50 is not in short supply as the article says. It is instead not even due out until Mid May 2000. As for the NetBSD port that part I haven't verified yes or no. But if the facts play out in the same manor as they have so far then ..... well ... You do the math.:) It does seem that the cpu it's running should be capible of supporting either a BSD style or Linux style of Unix. However I still love my little Libretto. No porting needed it has an AMD K-5. Check this ZDnet article here. [zdnet.com]
  • Again I repeat where do you find these prices. I'm not smoking anything I'd just like to know. For reference check out this page at U-Bid.com [ubid.com] or this page at ibm.com [ibm.com] Which is the only version of this comp listed on IBM's site. The dealer may have told you it was a z50 but according to IBM it's not. (still a damn good little pda) As for it running Netbsd I won't argue that. I mentioned I didn't know. I only work with FreeBSD myself. Not that NetBSD is bad just I don't use it at work. Again I'm not disputing the price, just can't find that price for the z50, companion PDA yes, z50 no.
  • You forgot to initialize b.

    Where is my mind?
    mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0
  • heck, it's all pretty invalid!
    Did you use > or < signs?

    Where is my mind?
    mfspr r3, pc / lvxl v0, 0, r3 / li r0, 16 / stvxl v0, r3, r0

  • It comes preinstalled with Windows CE, but you can install NetBSD or Linux?


    I can see it now, geeks with no lives go marching onto microsoft marching on what they call a "Windows CE refund day".

    Next thing you'll see is people wanting refunds cause they want to run Linux on their washing machines, not some proprietry crap.

    I guess maybe Microsoft should produce hardware & software combos, then they wouldn't so much crap from people who see microsoft's licensing OSs to all sorts of manufacturers rather than control everything (eg. Windows CE compared to PalmOS/Palms, Windows compared to MacOS/Apple) as 'pure evil'.

    Basically, people develop devices and software to run them, sell them (including cost of hardware & software development) noone cares.

    Microsoft prefer to just write software, the license it to manufactueres so those with little software skill can easily create devices, everyone (at least here) start spouting "crap crap crap". The added advantage of Microsoft's model is that you *can easily* do things exactly like this, replace Windows CE with whatever you like.
  • And, lest we forget

    WNT = VMS "done right"

    ...with carte blanche to do it. [std.com]
    ...VMS+1 letter = WNT [romaine.net]
    Search for Cutler [dasburo.com]

  • I have a small Toshiba Libretto 110ct I picked new up on an online auction (800x480 24bit LCD, 32Mb, 4.1 Gig) with a iNet Spider CDPD modem card running. The service is called Airbridge from Bell Atlantic Mobile [bam.com], and it works just fine. Ok, so it isn't really a 19k2 but more of a bursty 11k connection, and coverage is spotty in the suburbs, but hardware wise it works. I read Usenet over telnet, I email, I even browse (slooooowly) with this tiny package. You could do slashdot with it. The screen's really good for the size. It's just a sweet little gadget. I am happy as a clam with it. I read and browse on the couch, in the bus, everywhere.

    I've een thinking of replacing the current Win98 with some kine of *BSD, but I am not sure whether that will support the PCMCIA CDPD modem, so I haven't invested the time yet. Considering this is just a small comms machine, I also don't think it is worth it.

    FJ!!

  • Re:Pen Input in Linux? (Score:2)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Yes check out http://www.linuxce.org/ [linuxce.org] (and probably the netbsd guys too - for all i know they had it first) There are touchscreen drivers for some CE hardware. (The z50 has a little IBM-style joystick not a touchscreen)

    I think everybody is at least creating an onscreen soft keyboard first before worrying about handwriting recognition. I expect that right now the non-gpl code that OEM's will bundle with their distro's will have better performance for at least another 1-2 years...
  • I bought one of these and I've been using it to connect in from the road via telnet for the last few weeks. The battery life just rocks - my first charge laster 10 hours and I'm still using it.

    I tried the NetBSD port and was able to get it to boot up. Next step is to get ssh running.

    There is also a Linux kernel port that will boot but isn't too useful as of yet. I haven't tried it out.
  • here's [pdagroove.com]a bit of a rundown at PDAGroove [pdagroove.com].com
  • I have a friend who gets to play with a lot of embedded devices, and I actually was talking to him about these devices last week. His comment was that they just weren't making sense. In particular, the WinCE wasn't very stable on them. Perhaps the NetBSD port could make them more useful, but he recommends the plethora of other PDA types devices, and not this beast.
  • True,

    Here are the computer shopper Prices [zdnet.com] for IBM WorkPad Z3

    And prices from auctionwatcers are Here [auctionwatchers.com]

    Enjoy
    --

  • It's brilliant.

  • I think the big hullabaloo about Windows Refund Day was not necessarily getting the $50 or so back. The real issue was that users had a contract with OEMs/Microsoft for a refund, but the OEMs and Microsoft wanted to back out on that contract. If they had just given those few people who asked their $50 (or however much) right away, it would not have become a cause celebre.

  • Last month, I bought a clearance laptop (Dell LM P90, 16 MB RAM, 1 Gig HD, and 640*480 active matrix display) for $500 Canadian.
    Ah, but does it run for twelve hours on one battery charge and weigh less than three pounds?
    I don't know about these pda's or sub-laptops, but I think they must get a lot cheaper before they can compete with out-of-date computers.
    I don't think they're really in the same space. A used or clearance laptop (where did you find a *clearance* P90? I would have thought all of those were out of the shops some time in 1996) is a better deal if what you want is a cheap Linux box that you can throw in your backpack. But until batteries get better and/or they stop putting moving parts (i.e., hard drives) in laptops, there's a niche for machines like the z50.

    Unfortunately, since IBM's discontinued it, there may not be enough demand at the $500-$1K price point. Too bad; in most ways the z50 was a much nicer machine than its competition (the HP Journadas and Compaq Aeros), being based on the rather slick Thinkpad 240 chassis. (The only problem is that it really ought to have had an 800x600 screen -- it's big enough.

    I'm not sorry I bought mine; nothing better if you have to sit in a library all morning taking notes and in a cafe all afternoon writing your notes up, especially if you don't want to be bothered with carrying around a power supply or looking for electrical plugs. I just wish the Linux port was a little farther along.

  • Not VMS, MVS.

    Once again, go do research; time-sharing systems are not the same as server OS's. Unix was designed for users to, given a terminal, be able to do their daily work. That's not a "server OS" thing.

    The clients were users, not other computers.
  • Actually, yes, I do think palmtops crash. I use a Psion, and it's never crashed. However, the comp.sys.psion.misc newsgroup is full of ex-WinCE users who had *frequent* crashes.

    Yes, stability matters.

    Overhead? Yes, even with X, Unix has dramatically lower overhead than MacOS or Windows. I've run Windows and Unix on the same system; the difference is quite visible.

    And, as to your last question, why would I want what is now a generalized data-processing system on my palmtop?

    BECAUSE WHAT I MOSTLY DO WITH COMPUTERS OF ANY SORT IS PROCESS DATA!

    Yes, I'd like a palmtop that had a good programming language built in, or the ability to run shell scripts or C programs I wrote for Unix.
  • A couple of things. First off, I'm arguing for NetBSD, because that's what I use on many of my other systems.

    Anyway, Psion's OS is great if you want to do *exactly* what they built the machine for. Beyond that, it's a closed, proprietary system. If I want a small, stable, general purpose computer, my best bet is a palmtop running some kind of Unix.

    WinCE is too unstable. EPOC and Palm are too specialized. Thus, enter Unix on a palmtop. Yes, it's what I'd want if I were getting something like a WorkPad.

    I'm not saying "Unix is the only thing it would ever make sense to run on a palmtop". I'm saying it's not particularly irrational to pick a Unix-derived system for a palmtop, because it's fundementally a general-purpose user OS, not some kind of mainframe-oriented server OS.
  • I've always thought a good form factor for a handheld would be something along the lines of the medical tricorder device from Star Trek:TNG.

    Basically, imagine something only slightly larger than a Pilot (but smaller than the z50 or these other "micro laptops"), with a thick clamshell design that evenly distributes the weight between the two halves.

    The reason this would be cool is you could build it rugged as hell-- think a "metal with rubber trim" exterior-- and it would be perfectly suited for clipping onto a belt or whatnot. Just like a tape measure.

    It would sure beat these super-delicate quarter-inch-thick Pilots and their flimsy plastic screen guards (well, as long as you don't want to slip it into that shirt pocket... :-)
  • Slashdot needs it's own Mercata-like buying site. Thousands of geeks buying the latest gadget cheap.
  • Sure, UNIX was designed for mainframes running a bunch of dumb terminals, but the average pocket calculator these days has more computing power than those old mainframes.

    The overhead is simply not an issue. You can fit a useful Linux distro on a floppy and run it on a 386. This is easily small and efficient enough for a palmtop.

    Linux is nice because it's free and there's lots of free software for it. Why reinvent the wheel? Instead of needing a massive promotional campaign to get developers to make stuff for it, you've already got a pile of useful software.
  • I agree I thought this thing was cool as hell. For all the b.s. products that come out, I'm thinking the Web Pad has the most potential. Think about it. One big Linux box to act as a gateway, firewall, Web, Mail, etc. server, hooked up to whatever broadband connection is available in your area. Connect to wireless transmitters that connect to however many webpads you need. Think about it for a moment. When people start to associate a computing home network like a (new) car, the mass market will be ready. Give them thier own domain on their server. blah, blah, blah.

    When this is a viable setup I'm starting a company that does it. Hmm, where's that Ask /. on VCs...

    --
  • Wrong WorkPad model, the IBM store sells the Palm-clones, not the z50 that the original post references.
  • What ?? I thought Linux for x86 was by definition an x86 binary??

    Duh read again, I said that Transmeta's hype was about being able to run *all those x86* binaries. Linux has x86 binaries, but a fraction of the total amount available, and ofcourse transmeta really meant windows apps, cause that's where all the apps everyone uses is.

    The crusoe was designed with the giak of quickly emulating an x86, I know that it could possible codemorph other insutrction sets. And that wasn't what I said anywa, i said that it was low power *for an x86 clone* - eg, it can clone an x86 - not it was *low power for something that can only clone an x86*, what you say hardly applies since it would consume basically just as much power if it was cloning a PPC.
  • Me thinks you have been blindly taking in transmeta hype.

    Most Windows CE devices run on very low powered CPUs, more os than the crusoe - which is only low powered *for an x86* clone. I'm quite suprised Windows CE devices stay on for as long as they do. Think about it, sound, 16bit colour, multitasking/threaded OS etc.

    I don't see what transmeta is on about personally, the only viable real space i see is windows laptops.

    They talk about the TM3120 running Linux on webpads, but then also say how cool it is cause it can run x86 binaries. Well sorry, Linux doesn't run most x86 binaries, so that liaves the TM5140 for notebooks. But then the power usage decrease is "ok" but not that much considering the CPU accounts for less than 50% of the notebook's power usage.
  • The z50s have a built in 56k modem, and they have a PCMCIA slot for an ethernet card. I doubt they will play mp3s though, because the processor is slow. It will run a web browser, email, "pocket" MS Office, and other CE apps under CE. It's basically a cross between a subnotebook and palm device. It's very light, but offers a 6" screen or so with a decent keyboard. Well worth the money I think, especially with unix alternatives.
  • > you can pick up 2nd hand Indies for anywhere between $200 and $1500,-
    > on ebay and in 2ndhand computer stores, so most people can afford to run a desktop on something

    Yes, I know. I'm looking for a used Sun Sparc or SGI (and even VAX!) for quite some time now, but it's not that easy here. (But I want one more for the hack value than for real work.)

    BTW: I've used ARM2 and later StrongARM-driven Computers before I had to switch to x86 1 1/2 years ago. I still have them, but a NetBSD "make build" needs nearly one day on a 277MHz StrongARM (overclocked).

    > else then x86... Oh, and it runs linux as well if you want..

    As a second choice maybe.

    > Anyway, RISC is not new, its in fact quite likely to be older then the average age of the posters on
    > slashdot, so do not call it new technology or such

    I haven't said that RISC is new.
    I 've just called x86 old crap.

    > maybe newer then plain cisc, but hybrid cpus have been around since at least end 70s and early 80s

    Some dates:
    First commercial CPU: 1971 (Intel 4004).
    First commercial RISC CPU: 1987 (Acorn ARM2).

    So RISC is still quite new in the microprocessor universe.

    > Not that risc is not cool, it is, but it isn't the coolest thing since sliced bread or whatever,

    I haven't said that. I've said "Crusoe is by far not as cool as those pure RISC CPUs".
  • I don't know what your defination of cheap is, but you can get a Libretto (discontinued, or at least pulled from their website) or Sony Picturebook -now with 12 Gig HD. They will do everything you want.
  • Yes it will play MP3's. Its a 131mhz vr4121 MIPS CPU - I think. The slowest part on all CE devices is the display subsystem. (You can even play mp3's on the old nino's and e10's - in mono)
  • it's free as in speech! what do you think? of course it's completely supported:
    • pull down kernel,
    • make the mods your system needs,
    • done.

    what could be easier? Try doing that with Microsoft's windows.

    with enough eyes, all new hardware is shallow : )

  • I don't know what kind of support there is for Linux at this very moment. At least not of the downloadable stuff. I leave that for the more knowledgeable people.

    Transmeta was showing of a tablet at their presentation. I think you can still find it on their website. Now Linus (I think in an interview) said that the handwriting recognition software was better this week then the week before. Meaning that they work on it. If I am not mistaken the 400Mhz Crusoe was going to run the webpads using Mobile Linux. This means that there would be pen input for Linux in the near future.

  • because it's [down]scalable, and because its free to develop for. Not to mention the benefits for tech's who can just jack into the UNIX system they're diagnosing and do everything 'natively' at least thats how I'd imagine it going. It's easier.

    A commandline can be a very handy thing, didn't someone once say that 'the reason for windowing was to allow more xterms'?

    If features of linux aren't needed, they can be deleted from the kernel, linux doesn't have to be restricted to being a 'server OS'.

    Doubtlessly there are some companies using 'me too' factor, but alot of work has been done on embedded linux by other individuals,but linux is completely hackable, you can change it to make it fit your device - AND draw on previously written code, and lots of it - project managers love 'code reuse'....

    just my $0.02

  • Why are everyone in such a rush to jump on the Linux bandwagon, and ignore the technical aspects?

    Linux is derived from UNIX. UNIX is a server OS. It is multi-user, with tough security and relitivly high system overheads. Even getting it into a usable desktop OS is a pretty big hack, so why force a server OS onto a palmtop? What advantages do people think there are to using Linux on a palmtop? Maybe they'll provide an ethernet port and allow multiple users to telnet in? Didn't think so.

    The only reason i can see for companies to use Linux is the "Me too!" factor involved.
  • Umm - are there any ongoing projects to put together pcb / circuit specifications to make a Linuxable pda?

    The itsy - did that have specifications? I think a project would be cool that was to make gpl circuit diagrams, so people can buy a crusoe [transmeta.com] cpu, compactflash [cfa.org] card, ethernet [national.com] driver and a touchscreen lcd - and make a hell funky pda.

  • I didn't notice any of the replies mentioning the Linux PDA announced by Samsung. No price mentrioned yet, but The Gadgeteer lists it, and it is fully described on the Samsung website at http://www.sem.samsung.co.kr/eng/product/digital/p da/index.htm
  • Yes. I do this routinely in the SF bay and other places I travel. I browse the web, and I read my POP3 email. I even get the first 100 characters of all my email sent to my phone - I now effectively have an 'email waiting' light (very cool) in my pocket at all times. there are several ways to do this, and I wrote up the way I went (a GSM + Psion PDA combo) [mcaleely.com]. The article discusses my 5mx, but I now use the smaller Revo. There is also a port of linux to this PDA family at www.calcaria.net (surprised no one has mentioned it).
  • I have an $800 Mitsubishi Amity with a 1.4 GB hard drive, a Pentium 133 and 32MB of RAM running a stock Mandrake 7.0 distribution. Why am I going to spend $800 (after I finish upgrading the system to have even less capability than the one I have now) for a machine that only runs experimental Linux ports?

    Sounds like a loser move to me.

    Anomalous: inconsistent with or deviating from what is usual, normal, or expected
  • This post brings up a question that I have been wondering about, but haven't heard anything about. What kind of support is there right now for pen input in Linux? If Linux wants to make the jump to handheld/portable computers this is going to be an important part. Specifically is there hardware support at all and are there any opensourced handwriting recognition software projects? Anyone know? Thanks in advance.
    -
  • Yeah, if grandma wants pen input in her hand-held, she should get cracking on that handwriting recognition kernel mod. Though perhaps we can help her out by giving her "C programming for Dummies" and a link to the LDP.
  • I think some people are missing the point. So you can buy a close-out P90 notebook cheaper. So what? Is it as small? As light? Does it have builtin audio or a modem, or IrDA? Does it get 8-16 hours on a single charge?

    If you like your P90 notebook, I'm glad for you. But it's not comparable to the WorkPad by any stretch.

  • Why was this story only posted once? (Score:3)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:48AM (#1247733)
    It will take years to get to 20,000 posts at this rate!

  • How to install NetBSD on the Workpad (Score:3)

    by perry ( 7046 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @12:08PM (#1247734)
    It is fairly straightforward. The NetBSD hpcmips crowd has been running on a wide variety of WinCE handhelds for a while. If you want to learn more, the web site and (more importantly) the mailing lists can help you out.

  • Re:Here's some more details of the z50 (Score:3)

    by DLG ( 14172 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @12:24PM (#1247735)
    Reading this review points a few things that might be relevant.

    1. 2.7 pounds.
    2. No touchscreen.
    3. Full keyboard.

    This is NOT a palmtop folks. As a handheld it is more like a low power low graphic low memory low expansion ultralight, than a color palmpilot.

    Certainly I could see some uses for a product like this, but since I see people in this discussion talking about handwriting recognition I would like to suggest they make sure they understand the specs. This one uses a nubby eraser pointer like thinkpads and such do.

    For some reason the performance chart for this says it has handwriting recognition but since it doesn't have a touch screen that seems sort of a part of the OS and not really relevant to the piece of hardware we are talking about.

    D

  • Re:Why? (Score:3)

    by seebs ( 15766 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @01:24PM (#1247736) Homepage
    Unix is *NOT* a "server OS". Unix is a text processing system. Do your research.

    Unix has "high overheads"? Compare it to MacOS or Windows, and laugh.

    Why do I run NetBSD on my laptop, instead of Windows? Because it's a more flexible desktop platform. Why would I run Linux on a PDA, instead of Windows CE? Because it would be a more flexible platform - to say nothing of "more stable".

    But mostly, you're just plain wrong about a "server OS". Unix isn't a server OS, it's a desktop/workstation OS that happens to scale well. MVS is a server OS.
  • You don't want that space between the last * and =.

  • Cool, It Runs Linux. (Score:3)

    by SEWilco ( 27983 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @12:15PM (#1247738) Journal
    There are several Linux PDA projects.

  • Wait a minute (Score:3)

    by Chemical ( 49694 ) <nkessler2000@hotmai l . com> on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:29AM (#1247739) Homepage
    It comes preinstalled with Windows CE, but you can install NetBSD or Linux? Can you buy it prepackaged with NetBSD, or do you have to download and install it youself? How do you install it? This is a palmtop, remember. Do you install the files over the serial interface? Even after you have it installed, how do you interface with this thing? Does it have its own special version of X? Or is it just console commands? And why exactally would it be useful to have BSD or Linux on a palmtop anyways? Usually the palms proprietary OS does everything that the palmtop is supposed to do. Are you gonna be running Apache on your Workpad or what. C'mon people.

  • Laptops are inexpensive. (Score:3)

    by Giant Robot ( 56744 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:38AM (#1247740) Homepage
    Last month, I bought a clearance laptop (Dell LM P90, 16 MB RAM, 1 Gig HD, and 640*480 active matrix display) for $500 Canadian.

    I bought an extra ethernet/modem combo for 60$CDN and it runs linux (slackware) with X prefectly.

    I don't know about these pda's or sub-laptops, but I think they must get a lot cheaper before they can compete with out-of-date computers.

  • Re:WorkPad details? (Score:3)

    by RedX ( 71326 ) <redx@wideopCOBOL ... m minus language> on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:24AM (#1247741)
    The Workpad you saw is the C3, which is an IBM-branded Palm. This article is about the z50, which has been discontinued (can't even find a mention at IBM.com) due to the fact that IBM tried to sell them for $1000 when they first came out. Like the original post says, retailers were recently unloading these things for around $250, but demand has since increased the price. Here's a retailer [pcwonders.com] that has a some of the specs listed for the unit. Probably a nice unit under $300, but the current price is a bit much for my blood.

  • mobile CONNECTIVITY, not just computing (Score:3)

    by vyesue ( 76216 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:53AM (#1247742)
    you know, I would really like to have a little device such as this beast, but more important than low price or color screens or hard drive space is that my portable computer must be internet-enabled. I need to bea ble to reach the portable machine from the internet and I need to be able to reach the internet from the portable machine. is anyone out there doing this? does anyone have a plam with a minstrel, or a libretto with CDCP pcmcia hardware? how do you like it? are you able to run services on the mobile machine and connect to them from the rest of the internet?

    this might be a bit off topic, but if anyone is doing this sort of thing, gimme a heads up.

    (and yes, I've read homepages of several libretto+cdcp people; I know itspossible and it's being done, I just want to know if peopel are happy with it and hear some more experiences.)

  • You aren't the intended target market (Score:3)

    by cloudscout ( 104011 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:39AM (#1247743) Homepage
    I picked one up for $279 a couple of weeks ago. Right now I'm waiting for a memory upgrade before I play around with NetBSD on it. Windows CE is terribly slow on this device so I'm hoping the NetBSD port will give me some usable utilities. (the telnet apps for CE, for example, suck dingo's kidneys).

    Instant-on and extremely long battery life (8 hours on a single charge) make this a convenient device for those of us who deal with on-call support. A 56k modem would be nicer than the 33.6k modem built-in, but all-in-all, simple support activities aren't too painful at 33.6k. VNC is even bearable.

    I have the Novatel Wirless Merlin PCMCIA CDPD modem in mine, but the usefulness is limited in Windows CE since TCP/IP applications for that platform are crappy at best.

    Your P133 may suit your needs just fine, however it is not going to have instant-on or the long battery life afforded by the WorkPad z50. The people who will use this aren't going to use it as a primary workstation. It's going to be a slight step above a mobile thin-client.

  • Typical (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:06AM (#1247744)
    Typical. He talks about the current NetBSD port thats working and mentions that there is a Linux port in progress so on the article title its "Inexpensive Linux/BSD Handhelds.

  • Re:Wait a minute (Score:4)

    by Oestergaard ( 3005 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:53AM (#1247745) Homepage
    Never ask a geek why, just nod your head and back away slowly ;)

    Yes it's bad that you'll be paying for a CE license when you won't be using it. However, if enough people request a BSD or ``blank'' version of the z50, I'm sure IBM will notice and offer that option.

    Don't underestimate the value of BSD or Linux on this kind of machine. Fit it with a FE card, and you'll have a router/firewall/web-server/etc. Not that you would want to use it for production, but imagine coming to some customer as a networking consultant, technician, or whatever, then plugging in your handheld to the network - and instantly they have the transparant proxy and news server they needed temporarily ;) It impresses the shit out of people. I've seen people running news servers and web servers on these pocket devices, as a temporary solution though, but still the ordinary unknowing people (induhviduals) around you are baffled. Their beliefs faint, they turn pale, they eat off you hand, they'd bend over and say thanks afterwards if you told them to :)

    The OS is the computer.

  • user/developer of CE and z50's tries to explain (Score:5)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday February 24, 2000 @12:47PM (#1247746)
    You are all in the wrong mindset and just posting because you think you are cool. =P Let me point out a few things about CE devices in general that will hopefully clear up a lot of confusion, I'll also make a few comments specifically about Linux & z50's...

    On a CE device the RAM is SRAM not DRAM. So the RAM's state is maintained when you power down. So you install everything into RAM. (Unless you also have a compact flash card).

    CE is loaded from ROM, and the ROM's are masked - meaning not flash upgradable. But the bootloader and OS are installed into ROM. SO to boot Linux or NetBSD you run a CE app which is a bootloader for a bsd/linux kernel which is on a compact flash or pcmcia card. (Don't even get me started on the lack of protection in CE that allows you to do this) There is hope, on the z50 the ROM card is removable. On some other CE devices its soldered on. So there's a possibility of people selling linux distro's for the z50 that you just pop in... that will be a long time coming though...

    In response to a response below this level - IBM is not going to offer NetBSD or Linux as an install option. Ha! Keep dreaming. They have just dropped this device, why would they go on and bother to do development for a dead platform?

    Also, yes you can play MP3's on it. It has a fast 131mhz r41xx MIPS chip. IMO its the display driver on all CE devices that makes them seem so slow. (Oh, and probably WinCE)

    Oh, and this is not a palmtop. Its a Jupiter class device. Its a mini-notebook sized device. Roughly the size of a Sony VAIO...

    Here's a screen shot of a developer running X on a z50: http://pc1.peanuts.gr.jp/~kei/Xscreen.gif [peanuts.gr.jp]

  • Re:WorkPad details? (Score:5)

    by jawad ( 15611 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:18AM (#1247747)
    Here's an image [ibm.com] over at IBM.

    A product overview... [ibm.com]

    More to come if I can find it..

  • Here's some more details of the z50 (Score:5)

    by SendBot ( 29932 ) on Thursday February 24, 2000 @11:24AM (#1247748) Homepage Journal
    There's a review of it at Cnet [cnet.com]

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