China's Secretive Sunway Pro CPU Quadruples Performance Over Its Predecessor (tomshardware.com) 73
An anonymous reader shares a report: Earlier this year, the National Supercomputing Center in Wuxi (an entity blacklisted in the U.S.) launched its new supercomputer based on the enhanced China-designed Sunway SW26010 Pro processors with 384 cores. Sunway's SW26010 Pro CPU not only packs more cores than its non-Pro SW26010 predecessor, but it more than quadrupled FP64 compute throughput due to microarchitectural and system architecture improvements, according to Chips and Cheese. However, while the manycore CPU is good on paper, it has several performance bottlenecks.
The first details of the manycore Sunway SW26010 Pro CPU and supercomputers that use it emerged back in 2021. Now, the company has showcased actual processors and disclosed more details about their architecture and design, which represent a significant leap in performance, recently at SC23. The new CPU is expected to enable China to build high-performance supercomputers based entirely on domestically developed processors. Each Sunway SW26010 Pro has a maximum FP64 throughput of 13.8 TFLOPS, which is massive. For comparison, AMD's 96-core EPYC 9654 has a peak FP64 performance of around 5.4 TFLOPS.
The SW26010 Pro is an evolution of the original SW26010, so it maintains the foundational architecture of its predecessor but introduces several key enhancements. The new SW26010 Pro processor is based on an all-new proprietary 64-bit RISC architecture and packs six core groups (CG) and a protocol processing unit (PPU). Each CG integrates 64 2-wide compute processing elements (CPEs) featuring a 512-bit vector engine as well as 256 KB of fast local store (scratchpad cache) for data and 16 KB for instructions; one management processing element (MPE), which is a superscalar out-of-order core with a vector engine, 32 KB/32 KB L1 instruction/data cache, 256 KB L2 cache; and a 128-bit DDR4-3200 memory interface.
The first details of the manycore Sunway SW26010 Pro CPU and supercomputers that use it emerged back in 2021. Now, the company has showcased actual processors and disclosed more details about their architecture and design, which represent a significant leap in performance, recently at SC23. The new CPU is expected to enable China to build high-performance supercomputers based entirely on domestically developed processors. Each Sunway SW26010 Pro has a maximum FP64 throughput of 13.8 TFLOPS, which is massive. For comparison, AMD's 96-core EPYC 9654 has a peak FP64 performance of around 5.4 TFLOPS.
The SW26010 Pro is an evolution of the original SW26010, so it maintains the foundational architecture of its predecessor but introduces several key enhancements. The new SW26010 Pro processor is based on an all-new proprietary 64-bit RISC architecture and packs six core groups (CG) and a protocol processing unit (PPU). Each CG integrates 64 2-wide compute processing elements (CPEs) featuring a 512-bit vector engine as well as 256 KB of fast local store (scratchpad cache) for data and 16 KB for instructions; one management processing element (MPE), which is a superscalar out-of-order core with a vector engine, 32 KB/32 KB L1 instruction/data cache, 256 KB L2 cache; and a 128-bit DDR4-3200 memory interface.
Color me skeptical (Score:1, Troll)
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:5, Funny)
Given that this CPU is entirely intended for internal use and not for sale to Western markets, there's little incentive to lie.
But y'know, keep believing that America is the only country in the world capable of doing anything of value if that makes you feel all warm and fuzzy while you lie in bed cuddling your guns.
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Along with South Korea, Japan, Germany, um maybe Great Britain, Israel, and others.
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doing anything of value
they are still on DDR4. wake me up when they reach big boy bus speeds
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Maybe the bus speeds are not the bottleneck.
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:4)
wake me up when they reach big boy bus speeds
I love the attitude in the West.
"China are a huge threat!"
"But I'm going to sleep on them making advancements, because I don't understand how time works!"
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:5, Insightful)
DDR4 is cheap, and IMC designs for DDR4 are cheap/readily available. As long as they have enough channels they should be okay.
It appears as though they have one controller per cluster of 6 cores, which is actually a bit excessive. They're probably wasting a lot of power on that.
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They were, in 2021 when they started building super computers out of this processor.
Just like AMD and Intel were still on DDR4 in 2021.
News travels slowly out of China.
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:5, Interesting)
Look at the memory architecture -- sharing 128 bits of DDR4 at just 3200 Mt/s across 64 cores -- and try telling us that it's a serious design. Or the per-core scratchpad RAM: that's a huge asymmetry in the design that is almost incompatible with modern preemption and scheduling algorithms because the contents of that RAM would need to be swapped out along with register state.
It looks like it's a design optimized for a particularly silly benchmark result at the expense of general usefulness.
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:5, Interesting)
It's a fancy multi-core DSP, like the IBM/Sony Cell from the PlayStation 3. It suffers from the same issues in that you need to be clever about how you DMA data in and out of the cores' scratchpad memory. It's designed specifically for running supercomputing workloads. It isn't a general-purpose CPU.
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This kind of architecture requires a custom OS and at least custom libraries, if not fully custom application code as well. The external memory bottleneck is a limit for a lot of HPC applications as well. I don't think I was being too harsh at all.
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That's what they said about Itanium too -- it will be faster you just need compilers to understand and optimize for ILP.
I think your later statement ought to be the lead: it's not a general purpose CPU. The domain of problems for which you can be clever and for which it's worth it to do so is extremely narrow.
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Look at the memory architecture -- sharing 128 bits of DDR4 at just 3200 Mt/s across 64 cores -- and try telling us that it's a serious design. Or the per-core scratchpad RAM: that's a huge asymmetry in the design that is almost incompatible with modern preemption and scheduling algorithms because the contents of that RAM would need to be swapped out along with register state.
You are being way too harsh. This is roughly identical memory bandwidth available to state of the art Pentium III processors over two decades ago. On second thought it would be substantially less due to unavoidable queuing / concurrency constraints whose name escapes me at the moment. It's the think that repairs itself as the core count increases like if it was 6400 cores the effect would go away.
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Re: Color me skeptical (Score:2)
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But then again, these type of supercomputers aren't used for 'general use'.
Unless they're used for one problem and then thrown away, you will want them to be reconfigurable for another problem.
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Compared to an AMD Epyc 9654, it has 6x128bit memory channels, the AMD has 12x64 bit channels. Same number of bits there, only difference is DDR4 vs DDR5.
It's not a desktop CPU, it's designed for supercomputers. In 2018 its predecessor was used in the fastest one in the world.
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DDR5 typically has 50% higher transfer rates than DDR4, and the Epyc has a much healthier thread-to-RAM ratio than this CPU. Or compared to a four-year-old Threadripper 3970X (high-end desktop) processor, each set of 64 cores in this CPU has the same off-chip RAM interface, the same L1 and L2 cache size, no on-chip L3 cache, the same number of threads, etc.
This CPU's architecture is only good for a very narrow slice of benchmark results -- which is fine as long as the applications look like those benchmark
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You're right, this CPU is designed for HPC.
It doesn't need to be responsive to user input
It doesn't need to be good at context switching
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It's not good at anything as broad as "HPC". It's not even clear that it's good at large linear algebra problems, which is what an awful lot of HPC boils down to. It's good at a small fraction of HPC problems that have very low memory-bandwidth needs (and this very localized data flow), small inner loop code sizes, and enough specialization that the whole software stack can be optimized for a CPU that depends on per-core address spaces.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, the Chinese government are indeed lying sacks of commie shit. Denying that, as you apparently are trying to do, tells us a lot about who you are.
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:1)
ALL governments are lying pieces of shit.
Singling out China ad though they are somehow different in this tells me you're a typical delusional American drunk on flag waving propaganda.
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All governments try to get away with lies, but very few are in the position of the government of China to be completely unanswerable for their lies. Your "equivalence" is fake.
And I am neither American, nor drunk on "flag-waving propaganda", in fact, having grown up in a Communist country not unlike China I am naturally inoculated against it.
See, you understand the world so little, that you make wrong judgements and conclusions all the time.
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:2)
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:2)
I stand by my comment about China - they havenâ(TM)t been communist for close to 50 years. But sorry buddy I misread your post. I have no idea where you grew up and my statement was off target.
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You should learn to read what you respond to, even when you shitpost, smartypants. Or maybe you should just learn to read.
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:1)
Well, cupcake, it tells me that the only introspection you do is shallow, and that only when you get backed into a corner. Otherwise, you're content to wallow in stereotypes and cheap talking points.
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there's little incentive to lie.
Substantiate. Resource distribution to various "scientific" institutions in the communist china is very much related to the size of the boasts they make, and "secrecy of development" means there is no real peer review or even competition.
That creates the perfect incentive to lie a lot, moreover so because the size of the lie is a coverup in itself.
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They have every incentive to lie to avoid the baleful eye of the CCP. This is what happens to authoritarian regimes that constantly punish failure to produce or think the "right way". People catch the drift and from that point onward you can expect a constant stream of lies floating up to the "authorities".
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Given that this CPU is entirely intended for internal use and not for sale to Western markets, there's little incentive to lie.
How many incentives do you need described for you? It could be propaganda for their own citizens to make them feel better, it could be propaganda to convince ours that the trade restrictions are worthless, they could just be trying not to get killed for failing Xi...
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>Given that this CPU is entirely intended for internal use and not for
>sale to Western markets, there's little incentive to lie.
Gee, if only we had a comparable entity with a few decades of data with which we could compare . . .
Oh, wait; we do!
A significant part of why the USSR imploded decades before we expected is that, while we knew they were lying to themselves as well the world about things like production, we failed to fathom the sheer *degree* to which they were lying to themselves and believin
Re: Color me skeptical (Score:1)
I love it how Americans think they understand the USSR example and have learned from it, but China haven't.
Given that the US government is essentially bankrupt and China isn't, I would say America has more to learn from the USSR example than China does.
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The only good part about China is they're also fiercely capitalistic. I'm sure if this processor is any good, you will find it at the Shenzhen market soon enough and someone will export it to the US for testing.
Someone will likely get their hands on it and start selling boards soon enough. They rip off their own stuff all the time.
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That train is gone - China is now less capitalist than it was 3 years ago and much less than 10 years ago. It is sliding back into Maoist type of totalitarianism, but with a telescreen in your pocket.
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It is sliding back into Maoist type of totalitarianism
Only because you only ever consume Western deregulation propaganda disguised as economic analysis.
The situation on the ground in China is more complex than that.
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I've been "on the ground in China" a bit longer than you, dear.
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No, I'm just well-connected and informed about the situation there, and not gobbling up chicom propaganda like you are, my anonymous friend.
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I try to fix it for you, but I guess you are one of the stupid idiots who do not get it:
a) capitalist -- a market and social system
b) totalitarianism -- a form of government, or lack there of: a kind of ruling a country, or "political system"
Both have nothing to with each other, as they are complete different axes of the coordinate system.
Hint: Nazi Germany was highly totalitarian, and fascist and capitalist.
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You cannot tell your ass from a hole in the ground, nevermind discuss coordinate systems. Totalitarianism is a system, whereby the whole of society and economy is under total control of the government.
If you trully believe that in Nazi Germany (or China, or Russia) any "capitalist" could make independent decisions without approval from the government, then this shows only your total ignorance of the subject.
Given your low id, it is too late to tell you to go get an education. Go cut the grass (or plow the s
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Totalitarianism is a system, whereby the whole of society and economy is under total control of the government.
No. First of all it is a system were a single ruler or a group of people executes complete control without constrains. Usually in an evil manner.
However even a good doer, benevolent king, is a totalitarian ruler. Weather he influences economics or not has nothing to do with it.
If you trully believe that in Nazi Germany (or China, or Russia) any "capitalist" could make independent decisions without
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Wait 10 years (Score:5, Interesting)
Hilarious how the USA sanctions other countries to try to force their ideals on them but yet gets less and less relevant because USA is in decline. USA does each and every atrocity they accuse other countries of too, either directly or by proxy.
USA might as well have made money selling chips to China, because obviously they'll just build up domestic capability otherwise, even as USA lines China's pocket with other trade it can't afford to lose.
USA, the losers in decline, the nation of fools.
China's population is in collapse. Not decline, complete collapse - in 10 years their economy will be just about gone from lack of workers.
China's leader Xi has systematically eliminated all creativity and exceptional leadership, countrywide. There is now no chance that anyone can overtake Xi as a leader, but also no chance that anyone will be able to lead once he's gone. Wait 10 years and see.
China prohibits it's citizens from investing outside of China, so everyone has invested in real estate (apartments, mostly), which has led to such a glut that there is a sizeable fraction more apartments available than needed to house their entire population. Estimates vary (China, right?), from 10% more than needed up to 100% more than needed. This bubble is trying to burst, and the government can't keep patching things up forever. Wait 10 years and...
Manufacturing in China no longer has benefits: their labor force is no longer cheap (see first point above), they steal IP at every opportunity, and pose national security risks. (Remember hoarding all the PPE at the start of the pandemic?). Other nations and companies are moving their manufacturing away from China, with the notable exception of Apple. Wait 10 years...
China still imports most of its food ($100b imports, $60b exports) and most of its energy, and most of its fertilizer for the food it *does* produce. China is vulnerable to all sorts of easy-to-visualize problems such as Russia no longer able to supply cheap oil, or India (or some other nation) seizing tanker ships as they go by. Most (not all) of China's navy can't operate more than 200 miles from shore, so they can't protect their own shipping.
None of this was direct action from America. We didn't attack China, or even do dirty tricks - they did all this to themselves.
Reports of the fall of the West are premature.
I'll take my chances with the US.
Time will tell.
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Re:Wait 10 years (Score:4)
Age discrimination is same in every country. Employers know they can ask for and get a lot more slavery out of more malleable minds.
Re:Wait 10 years (Score:4)
Ageism is alive and well in USA. Employers don't want older workers because they do not fit the "company culture".
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Reports of the fall of the West are premature.
Reports of the fall of China are premature.
I remember back in 2008 my father was repeating Western propaganda that China will collapse after the Olympics. That someone somewhere in China will use the increased media attention to launch some kind of coup and overthrow the CCP. 15 years later and it still hasn't happened, but the Epoch Times is still pushing the narrative of the inevitable collapse.
More US banks collapsed during the slow crash of Evergrande which still hasn't ended.
The CCP has demons
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China's population is in collapse. Not decline, complete collapse - in 10 years their economy will be just about gone from lack of workers.
Which fantasy game are you playing?
Are you seriously talking about this China: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] ???
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China still imports most of its food ($100b imports, $60b exports) and most of its energy, and most of its fertilizer for the food it *does* produce.
China hoards its own resources while it's cheap to drain everyone elses.
When they fell like it, they'll cut off an entire country and collapse one of their industries. They did this to Australia and their rare earth mining.
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Do you think that if what you say is true, the CCP will just let it happen? China is a nuclear state with a powerful and expanding military. I hope for everyone's sake you are wrong, because if for example they are in need of resources then they are likely to "secure" them, in the same way we did with oil.
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I remember when every American was convinced Japan would buy out and own half of the USA. That didn't pan out.
The irony is that since the 90's, the tremendous majority of the American national debt is owed to ourselves.
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lolz, right the number of working adults will go to zero.
or, they'll just use automation.
pick one, my money is on #2. China will be world power for century or more, mark it down.
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Welcome to Slashdot! We can either:
a). actually discuss the technological breakthrough in question or
b). take cheap potshots at the United States because, why not?
The Chinese were going to keep working on these CPUs with or without sanctions. If anything there were supposed to be even more domestic breakthroughs (see: HiSilicon's Kunpeng CPU lineup, and VIA/Zhaoxin CPUs). Maybe it would have been quicker had they continued "liberating" IP from foreign companies foolish enough to fabricate there.
SunwayMPP is a response to sanctions (Score:3)
They only started developing the SunwayMPP family after US sanctions prevented them from continuing to import the Xeon Phi. Architecturally, it's a lot like the IBM Cell processor used in the PlayStation 3, but using MIPS as the base rather than PowerPC. At this point they'll probably keep on developing it whether the US imposes additional sanctions or not, but it's definitely a product that was originally developed as a response to sanctions.
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Ignorant and wrong, sanctions are driving acceleration of China's tech.
The potshots are USA are well deserved, we've devolved to self-destructive virtue-signaling agendas over common sense.
Chips In Fish? (Score:2)
Ship me a school.
Who benchmarked these? (Score:5, Insightful)
It seems that the Tom's Hardware article was mostly regurgitating info from the Chips and Cheese article. Initially that article looked to me like a first-person set of benchmark results, but after reading it more closely I think that Chips and Cheese was just regurgitating and commenting on test results published by the Chinese.
If that's the case, then I don't trust the reporting. China has a history of 'creatively representing' its avowed accomplishments in many fields, including semiconductors.
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Yeah, I think you'll find these chips aren't available for the mass-market. So why you think there should be independent benchmarks is beyond me.
I thought perhaps the Chinese might have sent one to the West for benchmarking in order to blow their own horn, so to speak. Hard proof that they're actually capable of what they're claiming would do wonders for their propaganda efforts.
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I thought perhaps the Chinese might have sent one to the West for benchmarking
Again, why?
It's arrogant to assume that the West represents "hard proof", when even Linus Torvalds complains that companies like Intel fudge their benchmarks in order to push a narrative for certain features.
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FWIW the number for the AMD part is the theoretical max from their datasheet. I would assume that the number for the Chinese part is also the theoretical maximum, not the result of a benchmark.
Heh. (Score:2)
Actually a DEC Alpha 21164 copy with enhancements (Score:5, Interesting)
This chip is actually a DEC Alpha 21164 copy with evolutionary enhancements. It's not an original part developed from the ground up like the article claims.