India Mulls Using Nuclear Power For Its Chandrayaan-2 Mission To the Moon 93
MarkWhittington writes: India is preparing its second mission to the moon, the Chandrayaan-2, as Space Insider noted. The mission will consist or an orbiter, a lander, and a rover. It will be launched on an Indian-built Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) in late 2017 or early 2018. Defense Daily reported that officials at the Indian Space Research Organization are mulling making the lunar mission nuclear powered, presumably with plutonium-fueled radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs). RTGs use the heat of the decaying fuel to create electricity. Both the American and the Soviet space programs have used RTGs in their various spacecraft, the most recent one being the New Horizons space probe that recently flew past Pluto.
They should use nuclear power (Score:2)
Unless they have a ZPM - in that case, they'd be stupid to opt for nuclear.
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The problem with ZedPMs is that they have an annoying tendency to run out of power right when you need them the most. And you can never find a convenient replacement when you need one. It's the battery from hell.
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I think they tap energy from an unsuspecting universe and it is depleted when said universe is destroyed.
As for the Star Gates themselves, I'm not sure if people that go through it survive or they die every single time. Then most plots revolve around committing genocide against entire species (genocidal but woken up/unleashed/discovered by the humans)
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The problem with ZedPMs ...
While some Commonwealth countries (like Canada) do pronounce the letter Z as "zed", I'm pretty sure they don't write it down as three letters.
Editing (Score:2)
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No, they really are mulling a href.
238Pu? (Score:5, Interesting)
Does India actually have a stockpile of 238Pu? If not then where are they supposed to get it in two years? It's not like the world is awash in the stuff, and it takes time to set up a program and make it.
Honestly, Chandrayaan-2 is only a near-Earth mission, and not a super-long one - they don't need a long half-life element like 238Pu. Dirt-cheap 90Sr probably makes more sense, it's a widely available waste product. Or if India really wanted to impress the world, they'd make an actual nuclear reactor for space missions, not just an RTG, and offer to make them for sale to other countries. Russia made a few of them near the end of the Cold War (TOPAZ), but it's anything but off-the-shelf technology today. Another option to do something actually noteworthy would be to make a stirling RTG and leave on the moon, racking up operational hours in a space environment to demonstrate its reliability. A flight-tested stirling RTG would also be something that the west doesn't have.
Re:238Pu? (Score:5, Informative)
That is, of course, not how 238Pu is made. Neutron bombardment of uranium yields far too much 240Pu mixed in with the 238Pu**, and it's too much cost and difficulty to separate them. Instead, it's made by first taking nuclear waste and isolating the 237Np from it, which makes up only a very small fraction, so you have to process a lot. You then expose the relatively pure 237Np to a heavy neutron flux (which is expensive, as neutron flux is valuable), very slowly converting it to 238Pu via 238Np. You then regularly have to extract out either the 238Np, 238Pu, or both. It's an expensive process. 238Pu is a manufactured product, not a waste product.
** Uranium is mainly 233U, 235U, and 238U. We'll ignore 233U because it's so far away from 238Pu for now, and we'll ignore fissions, which are very unlikely to lead to Pu. 238U captures to 239U, which quickly decays to 239Np. This captures up to 240Np, which decays to 240Pu. 235U captures to 236U, which has too long of a half-live to be relevant. It captures to 237U. This can then either capture up to 238U (leading most likely to more 240Pu), or decay to 237Np. This then gives us the above route to 238Pu. But the longer series of bombardment chains needed, the comparative rarity of 235U to 238U in most reactors, and the cross sections involved, usually mean that under 2% of plutonium in nuclear waste is 238Pu.
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The use of "presumably" makes me think the Examiner reporter is speculating (pulling that plutonium out of his ass). The other articles do not mention plutonium, just that it'll be non-fission nuclear power.
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just that it'll be non-fission nuclear power.
So they will be using Fusion? Why not just send solar panels up and use the existing fusion power plant in the sky?
FYI, RTGs run on fission, so saying non-fission nuclear power only leaves fusion as an option.
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Solar doesn't work so well in a crater at the pole and in permanent darkness. The other problem is that it will be very cold there, small extra RTGs are very useful for helping to keep things warm.
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Yes, 90Sr RTGs. Which is why I said it's much more suitable. It's cheap (by nuclear standards) and abundant - it's a waste product, not a manufactured product like 238Pu.
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Thus, 238Pu is the most used RTG fuel, not only for spatial payloads.
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I have a picture of a Pu238 battery from a pacemaker. The shielding looks miniscule - and that's for a battery that supposed to sit for 30 years or more inside a human chest. That low gamma signature is very useful..
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It's a by-product of making plutonium for nuclear weapons, so it's probable they have some even if just enough for a couple high profile space missions.
No idea about their program but they did set off plutonium bombs in 1998 (one thermonuclear) so they might have made some in the 90s or 00s.
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No, it's not a byproduct of making plutonium for nuclear weapons. See above.
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Does India actually have a stockpile of 238Pu?
They'll run to Costco for some when they need it. J/K; they've got zero access to the stuff, which is why they're designing an RTG that requires it. ;)
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Does India actually have a stockpile of 238Pu?
They'll run to Costco for some when they need it. J/K; they've got zero access to the stuff, which is why they're designing an RTG that requires it. ;)
Don't be silly, they should just promise to build a bomb for some Libyans and take their plutonium and, in turn, give them a shoddy bomb casing full of used pinball machine parts.
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Why would using a material that has half the energy density (thus requiring RTG's twice the size and weight) make any sense in an application that's both volume and weight limited?
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210Po is probably more likely than 90Sr because of the energy density problem they are going to need to solve.
Congratulations, dev. nations. West.. not so much. (Score:2)
Does this kind of thinking mark the passing of the baton to the 'developing' nations of India and friends?
Seems they've gotten their own irrational fear of nuclear power under some measure of control - how long until the West collectively understands that our failure to follow suit when it comes to space development will ultimately cost us our lead?
I may well be wrong but at this stage in our development I see chemical rockets as a means of orbital insertion and little more. If we intend to explore, we need
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There are wonders enough in our own star system and plenty of reason to explore, the challenge of inter-stellar distances notwithstanding.
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I pity you for your lack of imagination. It must be a dreary world knowing what is possible and impossible. It is a good thing that physicists aren't as closed minded as you, as they have come up with ways to accomplish it when we have the will and investment.
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I pity you for your lack of imagination. It must be a dreary world knowing what is possible and impossible. It is a good thing that physicists aren't as closed minded as you, as they have come up with ways to accomplish it when we have the will and investment.
Without wishing to be on the Space Nutter Troll's side too much, I think it is true that interstellar travel is pretty much impossible barring some FTL method of travel. Not everything is a matter of money and will power.
The only vaguely plausible suggestion is generation ships, and that would simply result in a lot of completely isolated human colonies.
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I said it was possible. You say it is impossible, then list two things that would make it possible. Which is it?
FTL is something we are working on, it is possible according to physics, but it is something that is difficult to test as it would require rather large ships being built in space.
Generation ships is what I was referring to, it can be done, it is just expensive.
However, I see no reason at this time for trying to settle other star systems, we are better off with O'Neill Cylinders to relieve popula
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Inter-stellar distances aren't just a "challenge". They are insurmountable.
Perhaps so, perhaps not. Without a theory that reconciles relativity and QM properly, there's still a lot of mystery left in physics. We'll probably know the answer by the time it takes us to get good at exploring our own system - no need to commit either way this century.
We've explored so very little of our own system. As robotics tech improves, especially autonomous robotics, the commercial possibilities within our own system unfold. Keeping humans healthy in space for extended periods is another prob
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The Periodic Table of Elements has "ever" been the same since the Big Bang.
Our current understanding is that only hydrogen, helium, and lithium atoms would have been created in the moments after the Big Bang. All the heavier elements didn't appear until the first generation of "metal poor" stars created them during their life-cycles.
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"First of all, there are tons of things to mine in space."
Just as there is on Earth. Looked up the spot price for ore recently?
""Ever" is a long time."
The Periodic Table of Elements has "ever" been the same since the Big Bang.
virtually unlimited source of vacuum in space. would make thermoses more efficient.
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Seems they've gotten their own irrational fear of nuclear power under some measure of control
Call me when they've gotten their indoor plumbing situation under some measure of control.
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Or do you think the country should suspend all research and any semblance of forward planning and just build toilets?
I certainly do think the basic hygiene and welfare of the average Indian should be improved to approximately mid-twentieth century standards before the nation embarks on any flashy space exploration, but of course that would be much more difficult and involve enfranchising people and stamping out the rampant corruption. This is not the same as developed countries doing space exploration before they've cured cancer, we're talking about people living in chronic, primitive poverty. If you don't like people men
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You don't understand anything about economics do you. The underlying reason India is funding its space program is to boost its technology economy. What its doing is essential its future economy, the power to compete is the basis for increasing wealth, which will hopefully ultimately lead to everyone having toilets. India is competing with China.
Try to build your whole economy on building toilets and you will end up in one.
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I can't think of a reason to use RTGs for moon exploration. The weight of solar panels and batteries for a probe would be less than an RTG at this distance from the sun. There is a reason the ISS uses solar for power, and it isn't irrational fear. There is a reason New Horizons used an RTG, it was the better option at that distance from the sun.
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On the moon you get two weeks of night (unless you are at the poles)
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I missed that the RTG was for a lander, I thought it was for the orbiter which made no sense. I retract my earlier question :)
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This mission is to the inside of a polar crater - the darkness is permanent.
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One of the objectives may be to look for frozen H2O. If so they may need to venture into permanent shadow for longer than batteries would be feasible. If they don't need to venture far into permanent shadow then certain areas of craters on the moon have far less than 2 weeks of night and they could recharge using solar.
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In this case though nuclear or at least nuclear assistance makes far more sense than pure solar. Nuclear RTG's generate waste heat and this helps keep the whole machine warm - important when the Luna night is about 14 days long and temperatures can fall to -170 C.
Moon orbit - why? (Score:4, Interesting)
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Please don't use non-renewable to take the meaning that we're running out Pu. The only thing we've run out of is willpower.
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Willpower is a renewable resource.
Re:Moon orbit - why? (Score:4, Insightful)
The Sun isn't visible on any given point on the Lunar surface for two weeks every month and it gets cold at "night". An RTG-powered lander and rover can stay operational in such circumstances and the excess heat from the RTG can stop the electronics, motors, batteries etc. from freezing up and failing. The solar-only solution would require lots and lots of PV panels plus enough battery storage to, at the minimum, warm the lander/rover and prevent damage to the instruments and systems. That's a lot of extra mass to carry compared to a small RTG that can provide power and heat.
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There are a couple of locations on the rims of craters on the lunar poles that receive sunlight nearly all of the time.
http://www.airspacemag.com/dai... [airspacemag.com]
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There are a couple of locations on the rims of craters on the lunar poles that receive sunlight nearly all of the time.
http://www.airspacemag.com/dai... [airspacemag.com]
Yes, but scientists would like to be able to explore the other 99.99% of the moon's surface which, unfortunately, has a night that lasts for 2 weeks. They need a way to keep the lander's electronics warm through those times.
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Well, there's two possibilities here. The first is that they're using this mission as a technology demonstrator, proof of concept, or prototype - that they can actually build, deploy, and operate such a thing. The second is that the RTGs are intended for the lander and/or rover - which are in darkness two weeks out of every four. (Indian enginee
Actually, the most recent one... (Score:1)
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If India can afford a space program and nuclear weapons, they can afford to provide clean water and shelter for their population.
If only that were true... It would cost much more to provide food, clothing and shelter to 600 million people than it would take to send a rocket to the moon. Either way, the American aid package India can definitely do without.
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It's not the amounts, it's the principle. If India can afford a space program and nuclear weapons, they can afford to provide clean water and shelter for their population.
if the US can afford to land a man on the moon, it can afford to provide medical care for their population.
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Waging "war on poverty" through cash infusion hasn't worked. Shooting the money into space has a better ROI.
shooting poor people into space, best ROI of all. power the lunar mission with slave labor.
erg (Score:3)
And the fallout from one of these exploding in the air would be...?
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And lighter. I'd be more concerned about the _rest_ of the isotopes refined or generated that might be used for other purposes. India's nuclear power program is very real, and rather frightening with their relationship with Pakistan, their adjacent nuclear neighbor.
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"And the fallout from one of these exploding in the air would be...?"
This has already happened, so nothing.
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Zero. Nuclear RTG's are generally designed to survive the rocket exploding and even the fall from orbital height..
Plutonium (Score:2)
$1 billion (Score:1)
There goes $1 billion down the drain to satisfy their ego.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/ind... [dailymail.co.uk]