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Intel Networking Hardware Technology

Clash of the Titans Over USB 3.0 Specification Process 269

Ian Lamont writes "Nvidia and other chip designers are accusing Intel of 'illegally restraining trade' in a dispute over the USB 3.0 specification. The dispute has prompted Nvidia, AMD, Via, and SiS to establish a rival standard for the USB 3.0 host controller. An Intel spokesman denies the company is making the USB specification, or that USB 3.0 'borrows technology heavily' from the PCI Special Interests group. He does, however, say that Intel won't release an unfinished Intel host controller spec until it's ready, as it would lead to incompatible hardware."
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Clash of the Titans Over USB 3.0 Specification Process

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  • 1394 For Life (Score:5, Insightful)

    by vertigoCiel ( 1070374 ) on Sunday June 15, 2008 @11:53PM (#23805955)
    Ever the more reason to never give up Firewire until they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mrbluze ( 1034940 ) on Sunday June 15, 2008 @11:56PM (#23805967) Journal

    Ever the more reason to never give up Firewire until they pry it from my cold, dead fingers.
    But why does everything with firewire have to cost an extra $30 or so?
  • by Phlegethon_River ( 1136619 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @12:04AM (#23806017)
    How is this article, published online by an employee of a company supported by Intel, not biased in its analysis of the situation?
  • Bastard companies (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mark_hill97 ( 897586 ) <masterofshadows&gmail,com> on Monday June 16, 2008 @12:07AM (#23806039)
    As we have seen with wireless networking gear in the past companies are all too eager to screw the consumer with incompatibilities because of pre-spec products being released. If Intel was doing this I would say good for them, its rare a company would actively try to protect the consumer from these vultures.
  • Re:So... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Kinky Bass Junk ( 880011 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @12:08AM (#23806043)
    At least with a computer you could just install a $20 PCI card, little bit harder with a DVD player.
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Macrat ( 638047 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @12:09AM (#23806051)
    USB = cheap crap

    1394 = quality technology
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 16, 2008 @12:13AM (#23806077)
    Sounds like the whole OHCI vs UHCI battle of days past is about to repeat itself, this time with a slightly different cast of characters. What a hassle for OS vendors...
  • Re:So... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 16, 2008 @12:24AM (#23806145)
    I'm sorry but I disagree with just about everything you said:

    - all things being equal, USB-Intel would lose, look at the companies opposing it, you have AMD, Intel's biggest rival in chipsets, you have nVidia, the biggest gfx company, you have VIA and SiS - who handle pretty much every other chip in your computer.

    In short, every chip in your computer except your intel chip would be specced to the disputing standard, what would Intel do to counter that? Personally try to take over the gfx market, the VIA market (I say that because it pretty much is VIA's monopoly)?

    Don't get me wrong, Intel is powerful - but they haven't been the 5000 pound gorilla in a couple decades. I mean, Microsoft rose against Intel - that was decades ago. If you talk to most casual gamers nowadays I'd say they're more likely to recognize nVidia than Intel.

    It's pretty much impossible for Intel to pull what you suggest off, if nVidia and AMD/ATi oppose them together that would kill off Intel in pretty much any non-linux computer. I mean, granted Intel does like linux, but I don't think they're willing to suicide their MS market over a USB standard.

    Also, saying there is no significant use for speeds above 2.0 is retarded, I'm sorry because I don't want to resort to personal attacks - but seriously - 2.0 isn't very fast in all honesty, to think that 2.0 is where tech is going to level off is (again) retarded.
  • by Kinky Bass Junk ( 880011 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @12:35AM (#23806211)
    I couldn't possibly be Twitter - I wasn't replying to myself.
  • Unless users actually want to utilize the full capabilities of USB 3.0, which would require proper cabling [reghardware.co.uk]. Then it may affect a higher percentage when it comes time to blow up that bridge, but otherwise right now I think you're right.

    Though I'm sure Denon will be the first to come out with a super USB 3.0 optical cable for the bargain price of $750 as an upgrade to their $500 Ethernet cable [slashdot.org] which seems to have an issue with clearly transmitting the frequencies that dogs hear.
    So hopefully in a year or two Fido can enjoy every nuance of crashing cymbals in music and the always interesting noises that didn't get filtered out in the studio, even if I can't.
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:5, Insightful)

    by v1 ( 525388 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:13AM (#23806413) Homepage Journal
    Firewire is not designed to run peripherals. It's designed for high speed, efficient transfer of data. The closest it gets to peripherals is high end scanners. Mice, printers, keyboards, basically anything human interface is more appropriate for USB. Universal Serial Bus. Firewire is not universal. The overhead created by being universal makes even the high speed USB (480) transfer data slower than Firewire 400. Then there's Firewire 800 which leaves USB in the dust nicely on file transfers.

    Also firewire IO is done on the card/chip, whereas USB is done to a large degree by the CPU. This is why we saw recent threads about the 'security risk' associated with jacking into the firewire port of a computer - you have direct access to system memory on most systems. Try a file copy with USB 2, and again with firewire, watch your processor. BIG difference. This is important when you are processing video, you can't have your video IO making your video processing lag and skip frames. That's one of the reasons firewire remains dominant on video.

    The only aspect of this I find puzzling is the scarcity and cost of firewire flash drives. kanguru makes them but they cost 3-4x as much as comparable USB thumb drives. Best guess here is thumb drives started their boon before most PCs had firewire ports, so they were just trying to hit the largest market, which lacked firewire, and so now we're stuck with it.
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Televiper2000 ( 1145415 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:16AM (#23806435)
    Not to mention that USB1 is really just a user friendly replacement for the old reliable RS232, and PS/2.
  • Re:So... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Gnavpot ( 708731 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:23AM (#23806489)

    All other things being equal (no major bugs in one of the specs), USB-Intel would be the clear winner if the two standards came out about the same time, due to Intel's influence, name recognition, prestige, etc. The 5000 pound gorilla flattens the 200 pound monkey with 1 step.

    Oh, you mean like Intel won over AMD with their attempt at a 64 bit processor instruction set?

    (In case you don't know: They did absolutely not. Intel had to scrap their 64 bit processor because nobody wanted it, and today's Intel 64 bit processors uses AMD's instruction set.)
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:2, Insightful)

    by armanox ( 826486 ) <asherewindknight@yahoo.com> on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:24AM (#23806495) Homepage Journal
    Nice try at humor. Also called Sony ILink, it coests more because it needs a firewire controller
  • by symbolset ( 646467 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:25AM (#23806501) Journal

    Sooo...you're still waiting for HD-DVD to win?

    This one's not over yet. Apparently online distribution was a third contender waiting in the wings. We shall see. Sony bought out HD-DVD. They can't buy out online distribution. In the meantime BD players and discs have gone up in price not down. That was a critical mistake.

    Sony has some of the most brilliant engineers on earth. They're chained to the marketing team from hell. They always try to exploit their market share before it's time. A shame, really. They do a host other things wrong too. If it weren't so their supercomputer class gaming console [wired.com] would not be coming in third to the XBox and the Wii. They could use a consultant to come in and tell them how retarded their marketing team is, but they have too much pride to win. Surely I'm not the only one who sees this.

  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:28AM (#23806511)
    > The only aspect of this I find puzzling is the scarcity and cost of firewire flash drives.

    Flash drives (and iPods) don't come close to saturating USB2, so what would be the point of using firewire?
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:4, Insightful)

    by enoz ( 1181117 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:29AM (#23806513)
    If someone has physical access to your computer then it is already game over*.

    Why bother using firewire hacking when it is much simpler to do a hard reset and load a bootable CD?

    *YMMV, See TrueCrypt for example.
  • by Josue.Boyd ( 1007859 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:43AM (#23806591)
    The fact that an employee of a company who is supported by Intel wrote this article does not make it biased. If it were written by an actual employee of Intel, or even Mr. Intel himself, that wouldn't even make the article biased. Is the article biased? perhaps.
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 16, 2008 @01:46AM (#23806603)
    You seem to think this article is about sub-Gbs speeds. Sure, Firewire is the king there. But this is the next level and Firewire don't come close on speed.

    Look on it from the bright side, a few years from now you and your likes will claim how Apple popularized USB3. If it weren't for Apple we would still be using low speed Firewire and so on. Great, isn't it.
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:3, Insightful)

    by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @02:22AM (#23806775) Journal

    Not to mention that USB1 is really just a user friendly replacement for the old reliable RS232, and PS/2.
    ..and IEEE 1284 (Parallel ports), and SCSI-1 (see: Pre-USB scanners, CD Burners, HDDs), and PCMCIA (see WiFi, Flash, Floppies, Zip drives, etc.), and...
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:3, Insightful)

    by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @02:44AM (#23806895) Journal
    ...and game ports, and TOSLINK, and MIDI ports, and PCI slots (to a significant extent), and ADB, and infrared ports, and...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday June 16, 2008 @03:33AM (#23807197)

    USB2 is quoted as having 480Mbps throughput, however as the grandparent points out USB2 is not a fully-fledged I/O controller just the PHY layer, the host having to do all the heavy lifting.

    The upshot is that when you actually use one bus or the other to, say copy files, firewire at a mere 400Mbps trounces USB2 in throughput.

    Yes USB3 is in the pipe with vastly improved on paper specs, but then again Firewire has 3200 and 6400 variants in the pipe as well.

    Essentially USB should have been left as an interface for keyboards and mice, and firewire aught to have been adopted by intel as the preferred bus for all high throughput applications, it would also have been preferable to SATA.
  • by EmbeddedJanitor ( 597831 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @04:31AM (#23807445)
    Firewire might pay for itself in high speed applications where time == money, but it is sever overkill (and too high cost) for many lower speed applications such as mouse, keyboard etc. USB is king of the low speed domain because of low cost: a USB-cappable microcontroller only costs a couple of bucks and a sub dollar micro can do a low speed bit-banged implementation of USB. Adding USB to peripherals is almost free.
  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:5, Insightful)

    by petermgreen ( 876956 ) <plugwash@nOSpam.p10link.net> on Monday June 16, 2008 @06:53AM (#23808155) Homepage
    The big problem with using firewire for everything is it lacks the lower speed modes that USB has. That means that every perhipheral has to have chips capable of handling a 400 megabit per second interface even if it doesn't need anywhere near that ammount of bandwidth.

  • Re:1394 For Life (Score:3, Insightful)

    by evilviper ( 135110 ) on Monday June 16, 2008 @03:41PM (#23814413) Journal

    Ethernet is good, but it does not support isochronous transfer.

    Of course not. But be honest. How often is that a critical requirement? Like I said, Firewire has been relegated

    With Firewire, isochronous mode creates dedicated timeslots for devices that produce steady streams of data. DV and DCAM camera interfaces, multiple ADAC audio interfaces, you can theoretically load the bus to very close to 400MBit, and never have to worry about collisions or jitter, indeterminism, latency, or packet loss.

    Firewire may be able to guarantee 400Mbit/s, but that's not much of an advantage when Ethernet can provide nearly 1000Mbit/s.

    Jitter, packet loss, et al., are non-sequiters. They are already handled appropriately and reliably. Collisions are a thing of the past, you can't even find gigabit hubs.

    Latency/isochronous transfer is an issue to ONLY a small bit of studio equipment... Which is where Firewire has been relegated to. And with such a small niche, it may go out of fashion there in short order, as other protocols that have better penetration get slightly expanded to eat away at that niche. eg. HDMI, SDI, Fibre Channel, iSCSI, etc.

    DV cameras could benefit greatly from the faster-than-realtime transfer that ethernet offers and seem likely to switch away from Firewire in the near future. Eliminating the fixed-data rate realtime transfer would also allow for the use of much better (VBR) compression, with the potential for higher capacity on the same media, and longer battery life as well.

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