Dell's Intel Bias Caused By Under the Table Cash? 256
swschrad writes "There's a story up on Reuters today saying Dell faces a class-action lawsuit for finagling the books to hide under-table money from Intel. The hidden cash, up to a quarter-billion dollars a quarter, is alleged to have been paid to keep competing CPUs out of Dell PCs. Dell, their accountants at PriceWaterhouse, company founder Michael Dell, and former CEO Kevin Rollins are all avoiding comment on the pending litigation."
Only Intel? (Score:4, Insightful)
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It's almost like Intel knew their product wasn't as good as AMD, and they were willing to pay big $$ to Dell in order to prevent the social masses from accepting AMD as the better product. But now, maybe Intel knows they have the better product, so they are not bending over
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Due to their Tech support Script monkeys (I told you I don't have Windows installed five times now...) the over all quality drop (You need a new HD for that Computer you just bought 4 months ago...) and their lackluster cookie cutter builds, (Yay I have to reinsta
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Re:Only Intel? (Score:4, Interesting)
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None of this is surprising (Score:5, Funny)
Whoooosh! (Score:3, Funny)
Cheers,
Toby Haynes
under the table? (Score:2)
Re:under the table? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:under the table? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:under the table? (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:under the table? (Score:4, Insightful)
Financial records are private (Score:5, Informative)
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Well, while I think such a payment should be used to reduce the cost of the components and as a result widen the profit margin (and hence the taxes paid) Dell may want to account for it differently. They could, for example, be offering copay money to advertise Intel chips; which would be a
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Revenues v/s Cost of Goods Sold (Score:2)
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Re:under the table? (Score:5, Insightful)
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That's the nature of a government which has too many laws. Each law is selectively enforced (abused) only when it serves the convenience of those who write the rules and are in control.
> It's a legitimate way of doing business
Only insofar as the people conducting legitimate insider trading are in the good graces of those who hold the authority to order investigation and prosecution.
That's why Martha Stewart received such a light sentence. She fell out of the good graces of so
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No, but you can't trade stock based on the information of deals in progress if that information is not public. That's why I suggested that the transaction would involve something other than stock. IPO's in particular have a "quiet period" that could sink the whole IPO if that sort of discussion came to light.
I must have gone to the wrong golf course. (Score:3, Interesting)
Very similar to the concept of a government security clearance.
How do you mean? Speaking as someone who had a security clearance, it doesn't entitle you to free stock tips on the golf course, or really anything else particularly interesting. It's more just a prerequisite for employment; the biggest benefit is that it makes you look like a more attractive employee when certain companies are looking for staff.
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Depending on what classified information you have access to, you get to know things before the rest of the marketplace.
Sometimes seemingly innocuous information can give you a tip as to which way the market is going to move for certain companies...
IIRC, there was a study done that showed Senators consistently outperformed the avg market gains
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Anti-dumping laws (Score:2)
Re:Anti-dumping laws (Score:5, Informative)
It's called predatory pricing [wikipedia.org]. Mainly it's when a larger company with more marketshare prices their products below profitability in order to bankrupt their competitor.
It's one of the main reasons that straight free markets don't work.
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Well, predatory pricing is a ridiculous concept and Supreme Court has made it difficult (or next to impossible) to prove for a good reason. If it's YOUR product in a free country you should be able to sell it for any amount of money YOU deem appropriate. Well, try to sell... whether you actually do sell it at that price depends on whether you'll find a buyer who agrees.
Here's the not ridiculous concept: Say three small companies X, Y, and Z make comparable widgets that cost them about $100 to make and th
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That's a pretty sweeping generalization. On paper, predatory pricing may sound like an unstoppable weapon. But in real-world economies, where there's still real money at stake, it's not as if anybody can just decide to use predatory pricing anytime they feel like and get away with it. Pricing your own products below profitability always introduces short-term risk. Usually companies that employ this tac
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Re:under the table? (Score:5, Interesting)
From AMD's complaint about Intel's unfair business practices, emphasis mine:
It's pretty likely, IMO, that Intel used these unfair business practices in countries other than Japan.
Let alone the reporting issues for public companies that other posters have addressed.
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I'll make an educated guess:
The monies in question is related to Intel's advertising budget; if you are a system vendor and prominently display the Intel logo in your advertising, Intel will fund a certain percentage of the advertising, based on the prominence of the logo in your advertising. (Microsoft has a similar program).
Am I right? If so, then the ones suing Dell are complaining about NOTHING. There is absolutely nothing stopping AMD from implementing such policies if they have not already d
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The monies in question is related to Intel's advertising budget; if you are a system vendor and prominently display the Intel logo in your advertising, Intel will fund a certain percentage of the advertising, based on the prominence of the logo in your advertising. (Microsoft has a similar program). Am I right? If so, then the ones suing Dell are complaining about NOTHING. There is absolutely nothing stopping AMD from implementing such policies if they have not already done so.
Gee Microsoft does it too,
Say it ain't so! (Score:5, Funny)
My God... (Score:5, Funny)
Under the table money from Intel?
Wait... is that why the Opinion Center colors are so... I dunno... currency like?
Reuters gets slashdotted... Slashdot gets Intel'ed!
I for one welcome our--- AGH! [tackled and beaten to death by slashdotters]
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Opinion Center (Score:5, Funny)
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http://amd.vendors.slashdot.org/ [slashdot.org]
The link is still live, but the last story posted was Dec 13th 2006
So What (Score:2)
Isn't that what lobbying is all about?
It's called deal making. If Intel offered me cash to use their CPUs only, I would take it.
It's called a rebate.
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No, if it was they'd have to submit all of the UPCs and receipts; and then get an email denying the rebate because they forgot to send in the left bottom flap from all of the boxes.
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So, it just might be illegal. Consider the following scenarios, none of which may be true and all of which are just speculation by me. Again, none of these may be true, but it shows how this kind of thing is more than "no big deal".
1) If Dell hid this money from the IRS and failed to pay taxes on it, that would certainly be illegal.
2) If Dell claimed this money under "sales" when in fact it was a gift, that might have caused their stock to be inflated by making their sales look better than the
why under the table? (Score:3)
Big deals sometimes have provisions (Score:5, Informative)
If Intel gives Dell a 250m rebate, then they are actually charging below the price, and would have to match it elsewhere. However, by hiding the rebate, they can keep charging Dell a book value and collecting the premium elsewhere.
When big players negotiate big contracts, they often put in protections to not be worse off than the competition. I would expect the deal to be illegal because by not disclosing it, they MAY be in material breach to other companies. Further, Intel has signed consent decrees with the Feds over alleged anti-trust violations, and non-disclosed payments to keep competition out may violate those agreements.
This isn't a local computer shop contracting with a wholesaler, these are two Fortune 50 companies, sometimes they have arrangements covering them.
Also, what if a state government agreed to a deal where Dell was the exclusive provider in exchange for cost-plus accounting. Dell would bill on the reported cost, plus profit margin, and then collect the rebate.
There are a bunch of reasons why this might be illegal because it is potentially defrauding other companies IF their deals are dependent on Intel or Dell's pricing structure.
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In my experience as an accountant, I have seen several such contracts too.
1) Even if Intel had entered
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To clarify, I meant illegal as in violating a legal agreement, subject to legal action, not criminal behavior.
An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer (Score:5, Funny)
The Lawyer answers that it generally considered to be 4, but there could be precendants in which that answer may vary.
The Engineer takes out a slide rule, works for a bit, and answers that it is 4.000000000000000000000000000000000000000
The Accountant looks at the Board and asks, "What would you like it to be?"
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Re:An accountant, a Lawyer, and an Engineer (Score:5, Funny)
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for that much money? Duh! (Score:2, Insightful)
A question (Score:2)
OK, this is probably illegal. But defrauding the shareholders by artificially increasing profits? Huh? If a company finds a way to make an extra billion and change each year, don't shareholders usually consider that a good thing?
Bribes are not sustainable, see (Score:5, Interesting)
It also means that they will likely perform poorly compared to previous quarters. Stock value is about looking forward, not back - the price rises on what people think will happen next. In other words, speculation. Lots of folks will lose money because of these secret, and likely, illegal dealings. Hence the lawsuit.
Moreover, this behavior may open Dell to substantial unrelated lawsuits - which means that the folks in charge of Dell were neglecting their fiduciary responsibility to shareholders. Again, a perfectly valid reason for shareholders to sue.
I hope that Dell is gutted for this.
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* Dell is nailed for cooking the books - it appeared to everyone that they were doing great SELLING COMPUTERS. It isn't just about doing well.
* Intel and Dell are nailed on uncompetitive practices.
* Intel is nailed for monopolistic practices, with Dell as an accomplice. Might be the same thing as the previous bullet, IANAL.
No matter what, someone is going to hang. Publ
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I'm sure they are. This might get them out of the spotlight for some time, making people with only short-term memories forget about the HP spying on the board [wikipedia.org] case.
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You point it out yourself. Artificially. Now that Dell is shipping AMD processors they are probably not getting the rebate from Intel anymore. Their profits are going to take a big hit for reasons which were not disclosed to investors. Had Dell been putting something in their FTC filings saying "$1 billion dollars of revenue are dependent upon exclusive marketing deals with Intel which we may not be able to maintain in the face of increasing
Intel/AMD (yeah, it's a little off-topic) (Score:2)
Dellintel AMD (Score:2)
I'm not at all surprised to hear about the lawsuit - it seemed to me that the only reason De
Odd (Score:2)
Why not just have an agreement, and then heavily discount the price of CPUs?
I don't know whether having such an agreement would be illegal, but I doubt selling CPUs cheap is.
Axis of tech evil (Score:2)
Relax, it's just a little joke.
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Yeah, as in, HA HA ONLY SERIOUS
What's artificial about the profits? (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Well, if the USD250 mn received was accounted for (thus "inflating profits") how can it be secret? If the rebate was illegally pocketed by execs, that would be "under the table".
2) Last time I checked, it was not "illegal" to offer quantity discounts/rebates to large customers. Hell, according to the law firm's logic, buying at CostCo is illegal because they offer quantity b
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Because it wasn't tied in to the product it applied to (as reduced COGS, as rebates should be applied). Instead, it was classed as revenue, which then overstates both their gross income and their COGS. While the net is the same, key ratios are thrown off, thus changing the valuation analysts give to the stock.
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However, there are certainly some practical problems. Problems arise when the rebate is based on full-year purchases and during the early quarters there is no way to know with any certainty whether the reba
quarter billion? (Score:2)
What a waste. Intel should steal a page from Exxon's book.
For the meager sum of $10,000, this computer professional will gladly write a paper about the awesomeness of Intel CPUs.
dig for that Microsoft marketing cash too (Score:2)
I've heard that over 20% of Dells profits come directly from marketing Windows. you know, 'we recommend Microsoft Windows XP' on ever page on it's website, the 12 MS windows stickers on keyboards, mice, monitor, case with ever new Dell PC. Oh, and don't forget the 'there are too many
Wait a Minute! (Score:2)
There's some smoke here and probably a fire below it given how corrupt the decision making process is in a corporation. But it's not really actionable by a money trawling lawyer. The SEC certainly doesn't care. Otherw
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But it's not really actionable by a money trawling lawyer. The SEC certainly doesn't care.
Would you care to elaborate on that? This suit may well be the first that the SEC has heard of the alleged deception. Furthermore, it is being actioned on. I suppose it follows that plantiff's lawyers aren't money trawling...
Bingo! This is how the lawyer gets his and the only reason we would ever hear anything about it. I don't see shareholders benefitting in any way shape or form.
Well, it is a shareholder lawsuit leveled against alleged corporate malfeasance. The shareholders didn't give up their shares when they chose to be represented by a legal firm - and they will certainly benefit if they win.
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This is unlikely to be anything the SEC takes an interest in, or anyone else for that matter. The specifics are almost certainly legal even if the outward appearance is shakey. Dell and Intel are unlikely to risk as much as 20% of their annual revenue on some scheme the law
Big money (Score:2)
Consider the source (Score:5, Insightful)
This is the firm that's made a tidy living sueing the hell out of public companies whose stock drops suddenly. Guess the stock market is doing so well that they've decided to sue for prices going in the upward direction as well. Usually the target settles out of court because winning the legal battle would cost them more. A few years back they sued a company whose stock I own. In that case the company fought them off, but it cost me and the other stockholders (in whose names Lerach was sueing, thank you so much) several million. May Lerach and his ilk rot in hell.
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Can you sue them for including you in a lawsuit you did not wish to participate in, and the losses you suffered because of their reckless behavior?
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Unfortunately, no. I've long wanted a "loser pays" provision in US tort law, but the plaintiff's bar always manages to head off such a measure.
Let's Analyze This (Score:2)
2: Dell is alleged to have received $1 Gigabucks kickback/payoff from Intel last year
In other news (Score:4, Funny)
Huh (Score:2)
I'm SHOCKED. SHOCKED, I tell you... (Score:2)
Anyone who thinks that AMD got in and Intel got back in due simply just to processor technology or speed is kidding the
Dell was sued, not Intel & Intel's response. (Score:2)
Intel denied the accusations and said that some of the claims appear to "rehash" similar complaints against the chip maker by smaller rival Advanced Micro Devices Inc.. A Dell spokesman would not comment on the lawsuit.
G
I don't get it. (Score:2)
So Intel bribes MS to make bloatware (Score:2)
Maybe this is why the CEO of Dell was fired (Score:2)
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Yes, but not all anti-competitive behavior is unlawful. Dell and Intel are big enough, however, that it probably would be.
Additionally, this was a secret payment which is a very very big no-no. For all we know, it could have been a direct kickback to executives, which is the "go directly to jail" kind of illegal.
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*looks at home built Celeron machine*
*looks at old home built PIII*
*looks at dual pentium pro server*
Oh noes! It cannot be! Would these 3 machines spanning 10 years possibly be.... Intel processors bought from the "free market"? They must be Cyrix M2-300s or Motorola 68000s with Intel stickers on them, because Intel would surely never release their sub standard rubbish onto the open market.
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If you have a dominant position in the market, it may violate antitrust law.
Selling at a low price is fine, always. But if you have a dominant position in the market, there are things that you aren't allowed to do:
You can't sell below cost, called dumping. The tactic is to bankrupt the competition and raise prices after they're gone.
You can't bundle products together so as to create a monopoly in a new area by tying to products from an e
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Lawyers.
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First thing I did when I got my dell laptop was to wipe the hard drive, partition it for dual boot, and install XP Pro (for which I had a license) instead of XP home that the laptop shipped with.
No problems at all.
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Dell can gain in other ways. Some possible ones would include:
1: Being the first to receive new processor releases in quantity. Dell can advertise fastest machines available now.
2: Receiving full shipments while other manufacturer's are on "allocation". Dell can ship more units when they can't.
3: Receiving "inside" info of new releases, so they better know when not to stock-up on processors soon to be worth much less.
4: Receiving processors at a discount
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You didn't account for trips, dinners and entertainment for Dell execs paid by Intel.
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You know things are bad when former spin offs (what would become Accenture) pay 1.2B to AA to NOT use the Anderson name
JON
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If only they'd had the same foresight with the OS they chose...
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on recompiling versions for Linux ?
I guess you've never tried to port a piece of Windows-specific code to Linux or some other open platform.
It is simply impossible if it is written to the Windows API and the message system. A complete rewrite is easier. Yes, you can pillage the original code, but the UI code is usually much bigger than the part that does the actual processing.