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Students Tracked By RFID 866

Posted by timothy
from the government-schooling dept.
TheMeuge writes "The New York Times is reporting a new development in the unrelenting progress of the RFID juggernaut. The school district of Spring, Texas has adopted RFID as a way to track students' arrival and departure. Upon being scanned, the data are transmitted to both the school administrators, as well as city police. I guess cutting class is no longer an option."
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Students Tracked By RFID

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  • Cutting Class (Score:5, Insightful)

    by aonnix (612879) <dhusea@studen[ ]vsu.edu ['t.g' in gap]> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:26AM (#10840811)
    It should be easier to cut class now. Just give your tag to your buddy, and the school's computers will think your there.
  • Insanity (Score:5, Insightful)

    by david_594 (735508) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:26AM (#10840814)
    If I were still in High School I think i would be scared of this. RFID technology seems great for tracking shippments and such, but to track students like this seem pretty insane.
  • Funny (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:27AM (#10840816)
    How prejudice and invasive technologies always attack those who cannot defend themselves first. I give it 5 years and you'll see rfid on vehicles or national id's. I mean you have a license plate now, whats the dif between that and rfid. right, right, nudge nudge.

    Thank you idiot america.
  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Repugnant_Shit (263651) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:28AM (#10840826)
    That won't be a problem once the subdermal tags arrive.
  • to the police?? (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:29AM (#10840828)
    transmitted to both the school administrators, as well as city police

    Don't the police have better things to do instead of tracking students? Like maybe fighting crime?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:29AM (#10840834)
    if you're not in the position to be affected by this, shut the hell up.....

    Yeah -- and do the same thing when they come for the Jews, right?

    Fuckwit.

  • RFID circumvention (Score:5, Insightful)

    by shadowmas (697397) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:31AM (#10840839)
    soon we'll be learning tons of ways to circumvent RFIDs. kids are very good at finding out ways to circumvent stuff like this. nomatter how good a system might be when it goes against lots of kids with a lot of time on there hands and new ways of thinking i wonder how long it will take b4 kids find away around this.
  • Freedom to monitor (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Homology (639438) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:32AM (#10840846)
    Upon being scanned, the data are transmitted to both the school administrators, as well as city police.

    The official USA propaganda is that the rest of the world envy USA because of it's freedom. Well, I don't envy the freedom US authorities has to continously monitoring anyone for no reason at all.

  • by mumblestheclown (569987) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:33AM (#10840854)
    I agree with your assessment that it's a good thing and I also share your dread at the predictable tin foil hat replies. However, "in you're not in a position to be affected by this.." is exactly the wrong attitude.
  • by eclectro (227083) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:33AM (#10840855)
    if you're not in the position to be affected by this, shut the hell up.....

    Let me guess, if we don't that would make us unpatriotic as well???
  • by WCMI92 (592436) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:34AM (#10840856) Homepage
    Something tells me the black market in RFID jammers and duplicators is going to be rampant...

    This is totally wrong. You are compelled by law to attend school. Most can't afford to NOT go to government school. Now the government is tagging people like animals.

    Be VERY afraid of the first RFID generation, ones who grow up with this commonplace, who never knew an age without it. Who will thing we are a bunch of kooks for opposing it.

    That is why those who want to social engineer people ALWAYS want to start with the schools...
  • Re:Insanity (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jokumuu (831894) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:38AM (#10840884)
    Well, the thing is, actually tracking anything is with this technology is the scary part. The actual use by a school is just the tip of the iceberg. I am sure that in future every person will be tracked "for their safety". I think that some small town will probably go for something like this at some point "to fight crime"
  • by RandoX (828285) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:39AM (#10840890)
    If the student to teacher ratio is so large that the instructor can't even accurately take role, what is the level of education going to be like?
  • Re:Funny (Score:2, Insightful)

    by jokumuu (831894) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:40AM (#10840898)
    the difference: no rfid YET. Just wait for the new and improved "Crime fighting Lisence plate"
  • Re:Insanity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by tomstdenis (446163) <tomstdenis@@@gmail...com> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:41AM (#10840903) Homepage
    The bigger problem I see is you can't really force discipline and respect on children anyways. I mean you can show them how their actions have consequences and all but if the child doesn't take it upon themselves to straighten up there isn't much you can.

    For instance, a couple of years ago [ok so roughly 8 or so] the high school I went to started a "10 missed classes and you're suspended". Did that stop skipping? Did that make the students more respectful of the teachers and their peers [specially in grade 9, the first year of high school for us...]? Hell no.

    By contrast the "advanced stream" [basically get >60% in advanced courses] I was in was mostly populated with students who behaved themselves, got through the lectures and participated in class. We chose to act like adults we weren't forced to do so.

    So left to their own devices most children would come around on their own. The ones who don't want to can live exciting lives with a grade 10 education.

    So all this RFID thing is going todo is breed more contempt for "authority" on the part of the students who in my mind are already a bunch of punkagers anyways.

    As for "privacy" concerns... um there are none. You're in PUBLIC while at a PUBLIC SCHOOL. So long as the RFID tag is encrypted or something [e.g. not plaintext stored on it] and it's easy to stow when not on campus I don't see the huge security concern.

    Tom
  • by Zemran (3101) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:41AM (#10840905) Homepage Journal
    This is the sort of thing we would have screamed about if China had done it a few years ago and now we just accept it. The East is moving West as quickly as the West is moving East. Soon they will occupy the moral high ground.
  • by rongten (756490) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:43AM (#10840918)
    When Thomas Jefferson said The price of freedom is eternal vigilance some of you think he meant this?
    Why should we limit our civil liberties in trade of "security"?
    Why it is easy of letting something go, but hard and strenous to conquer it back?
    Some things we are hearing around start making 1984 sound like a bed time history.
  • by not_a_product_id (604278) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:44AM (#10840923) Journal
    "we are required by law to know where our pupils are at all times"

    probably another reason why this could be a good thing. The danger here comes when governments try to extend this and that's where this is the thin end of the wedge. It may be a good thing but we'd be stupid to ignore the dangers it also brings.

  • by joelparker (586428) <joel@school.net> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:45AM (#10840929) Homepage
    From the article:
    • a few schools have begun monitoring student arrivals and departures using technology similar to that used to track livestock and pallets of retail shipments.
    And adults wonder why our kids aren't learning important ideas like responsibility...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:45AM (#10840932)
    Explain why these things can't happen to an RFID tag? Or are you planning to implant them? If it's not on my balls, I'd gladly get my hunting knife and cut it out.

    Now now, don't give them any stupid ideas of where exactly to implant them..
  • by ObsessiveMathsFreak (773371) <obsessivemathsfreakNO@SPAMeircom.net> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:47AM (#10840943) Homepage Journal
    Are these guys trying to piss off the volcano!?

    Seriously, most proponents of RFID technology site its benefits in stock and supply line management only, and keep assurring us that RFID tags embedded in products will never be used to track people.
    And yet we're now seeing instances of the middleman, i.e the product tag, being bypassed altogether and people being tagged outright. Is this really what RFID was developed for in the first place? Tracking people?

    OK, these people are children. But that doesn't make this any less wrong. First criminals, then kids. They'll start on employees next, move it up to registered drivers, you'll see.

    Of course tagging children has nothing to do with their safety. Anyone who says so is a liar or an idiot. As has been mentioned numerous times, the legions of pedophiles that lurk outside scholl gates every day will simply take off the tag, as will the kids when they want to leave for that matter. Of course the response from RFIDphiles is "Let's implant the tag subdermally!!!! FOREVER!!!! What a great(completeely consistent with a free society) idea!!!". *Sigh*. Why can't so many people think past their next meal?

    The purpose of RFID tracking people is to cause a chilling effect. This is denied in the case of children and the public, but is the primary reason given for tagging criminals. Bit of a contridiction there. Effectively tagging children is a form of control, and an extreamly invasive one at that. I don't care what age I am, or who you are. No-one should know and have a documented record of my exact movements. Period. You want to protect your kids? Sit down and talk with them once in a while. Find out where they go rather than right clicking on a toolbar icon to see where they are. Don't squash their, or my, freedoms just because your too busy watching fear factor to look after your own kids.

    And of course when I start using by blocker tag, I'll be accused of aiding pedophiles and endangering the children. Won't someone please think of the children!!? I am!

    I'm ready for people to start with the tinfoil hat cracks, but to them I say, this is the exact kind of thing you said would never happen!! Well it's happening right now! What are you going to do about it.

    RFID tracking is data rape.
  • Just Imagine (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Hoplite3 (671379) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:51AM (#10840972)
    What if they had spent that money on making kids want to go to school? I went to Texas public schools. No, I survived them. The one I attended was divided neatly into honors and regular classes. In the regulars classes, you learned how to take the TAAS (this test was required for graduation and pushed as a part of school accountability under the last federal administration). If you were in honors, you learned how to take the AP exam.

    Needless to say, not many people were really turned on to learn. Because nothing of substance was being taught.

    Personally, I think that large school reforms are in order. Let's divide students into classes with the type of instruction that suits them best. Let's not teach college prep to everyone, they'll resent it. Few people really connect with the idea of liberal arts anyway (even in college, I was a bit surprised) and it forms the basis for most highschool course requirements. Articles I've seen recently say that boys are doing poorly in American schools. It looks like all girls schools in England do significantly better than comparable coed schools, especially in math and science. Maybe gender segregation would help. Girls seem to be intimidated by boys in these subjects, and boys need more structure and encouragement. There's a lack of adolescent-to-adult ritual in our country. Maybe this could help provide what truant students are missing.

    It would be preferable to humiliation like this RFID crap.
  • by Kidbro (80868) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:52AM (#10840973)
    1 school district in TX != everyone.

    The interesting thing is that you're so "free" that this gross invasion of privacy is allowed. While in a "less free" country this would be completely against all laws.

    I'm not really trying to judge, but it's not clear which of the systems that is best at protecting individual freedom.
  • Required implants (Score:5, Insightful)

    by hrvatska (790627) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:54AM (#10840985)
    Where this is leading is required RFID implants. The requirement will initially start out with groups that most of us don't care about, like convicted felons. Next, maybe immigrants. Then it'll start creeping into other sectors of society. Eventually you'll see a wide range of jobs where this is required. Perhaps nursing, police and emergency workers. Then it will start to be required for normal activities. Like you won't be able to board an airline without an RFID implant. The initial selling point will be that it speeds up boarding. And then it'll be required for driver licenses. Can't be too secure after all. I think it's inevitable.
  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:2, Insightful)

    by ultrasonik (775562) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:54AM (#10840989) Homepage
    I really don't see any type of implant as being used in the future. Biometrics is comming along too well for that. The school could have just as easily used finger print scanners.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:55AM (#10840994)
    The next thing we know they will want to tag and watch drivers... oh, hold on...

    The next thing we know they will want to collect biometric data on all persons passing through the borders... erm....

    The next thing we know we'll all have to cary large pieces of paper (with chips in) around with us to prove who we are. only terrorists, insurgents or those of an inheriently evil nature will object.

    The next thing we'll know they'll give people cool new implants to help take the stress away from carrying all the paper and ID around.

    ready to be manipulated?
  • by ifwm (687373) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @07:58AM (#10841007) Journal
    Ok, where? YOU give examples please, since they seem to be so abundant.

    As far as the PATRIOT act, it's getting dialed back bit by bit, which is how our system here works. Someone does something foolish in the heat of the moment, and cooler heads eventually prevail.
  • excelent alibi (Score:4, Insightful)

    by C0vardeAn0nim0 (232451) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:06AM (#10841048) Journal
    1- go to school
    2- leave the RFID tag there (or wrap tinfoil in your arm if is subdermal)
    3- leave the school
    4- comit a crime
    5- ???
    6- profit

    #5 could prety much be "don't worry with police. they think you were in school".

    thei're just giving students an excelent, state sanctioned alibi.

    i watched a movie once about a gang that used british prision system as alibi. they all comited light crimes (no more than 6 months jail time), then they broke of the jail, stole a roll of paper from the comapny that prints brit money, printed a batch of bills, hide the money, returned to jail.

    when the police found about the stolen paper, they dismissed the gang as suspects because they were all in jail, end were still there.

    do i see something like this happening in texas ?
  • by gelfling (6534) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:06AM (#10841051) Homepage Journal
    So here's the stat that just required the schoolbook publisher to make changes in their books so that now marriage is strictly a lifelong relationship between a man and a woman (BTW Texas has one of the highest divorce rates in the country) and another change to call evolution an unproven theory.

    Now we have soccermoms micromanaging their own children's every movement with an eye in the sky.

    Welcome to George Bush's America.
  • by marco0009 (716718) <[moc.liamg] [ta] [9000ocram]> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:06AM (#10841055)
    I currently attend a Texas High School and I am quite glad that I will be graduating come spring of '05. I've seen my school dump the largest portion of its funds into the football team which then proceeded to loose every game, while our science wing must deal with outdated equipment, aging textbooks, and in many cases if the teacher is not an honors teacher, they have no idea what it is they are teaching. Our mathematics department is in the same condition.

    This is just a slight example of how ill-directed our administrator's are. They are easily blinded by people who have even the slightest ability to market a service or product, and I would not be in the least surprised to see that my class mates are all tagged with RFID in some form or fashion at the start of the next school year.

  • Re:Insanity (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Grym (725290) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:16AM (#10841110)

    So left to their own devices most children would come around on their own. The ones who don't want to can live exciting lives with a grade 10 education.

    But you do realize that, in this wonderful democracy of ours, their vote will count just as much--maybe more if they're in Ohio--as yours, right? Will you be so flippant with regard to their education and "exciting lives" when you have to pay more in taxes to help pay for their welfare check and/or jail term?

    My point is, our children, including the "dumb" ones, matter. Our FUTURE matters. Children are affected by not only by what we say but also what we do. If we set forth an example that it's OKAY for the authorities to monitor your every movement for our children now, how much easier do you think it will be able to convince them unwarranted searches are similarly okay in the future?

    -Grym

  • by sckeener (137243) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:19AM (#10841128)
    Be VERY afraid of the first RFID generation, ones who grow up with this commonplace, who never knew an age without it. Who will think we are a bunch of kooks for opposing it.

    That is why those who want to social engineer people ALWAYS want to start with the schools...


    I've always wondered how we can expect our kids to fight for liberty later when we gave them none.

    How can you miss something you never had?
  • homeschool (Score:3, Insightful)

    by cascadingstylesheet (140919) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:28AM (#10841204)

    And make sure your state doesn't mess with the homeschool law(s).

    It's not like there's really any educational excellence to be missed there (the fallacy of the false alternative). Public schools don't have the power to protect your kids, and as this story illustrates, you wouldn't want them to have the kind of power that they would need anyway.

  • Priorities? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by value_added (719364) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:35AM (#10841277)

    When the district unanimously approved the $180,000 system, neither teachers nor parents objected ... Rather, parents appear to be applauding. "I'm sure we're being overprotective, but you hear about all this violence," said Elisa Temple-Harvey, 34, the parent of a fourth grader. "I'm not saying this will curtail it, or stop it, but at least I know she made it to campus."

    "We've been fortunate; we haven't had a kidnapping," Mr. Weisinger said. "But if it works one time finding a student who has been kidnapped, then the system has paid for itself."

    So, let me see if I get this right -- crime rates have been going down for years and are at historical lows, but people are worried more than ever about crimes they "hear about."

    Without investigating, I'd wager that the odds of being kidnapped are much lower than than those of being struck by lightning, lower still than being run over by a car at a crosswalk, and lower still that little Johnny or Susie will drop out of school altogether.

    Maybe the money would be better spent on textbooks? Or teachers? Nah ... let's spend money to fix a problem we don't really have so that we can satisfy the need to believe we're doing something. For the children's sake, of course.

  • Zero sum situation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Not Public (257178) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:37AM (#10841294) Homepage
    we (parents, teachers, students, employers, etc.. are going to lose in this.

    I am a teacher, parent & employers of 16-23 year olds. We've set the education system up for failure, and it will continue to fail at amazing rate as desperate "solutions" such as this are thrown at the system until it kills a substantial percentage of the nation's youth.

    first and foremost- I'm going to say I blame the parents. (woohoo! watch that karma drop!) none of this would be necessary if the children were taught, or had it modeled for them, or had the values embedded in them that education was of value. That and the parents are going to have to suck it up and be the bad guy, be the hardass, be the one make certain the child is held accountable for their actions.

    A large part of the problem is that the system relieves parents of their duties of parenting. And then in turn holds schools responsible, and then in turn holds teachers responsible.

    But guess what, with all the responsibilities and duties and irrelevant tasks that have been placed on teachers- they have no time to teach. In fact, persons with any passion or desire to pass on knowledge and skills in a field are quickly driven out because they don't spend enough time doing attendance in the correct manner, because they don't spend enough time preparing children for a standardized test, because they don't document a complete and unique separate lesson plan/learning system FOR EACH CHILD.

    Which, if we allowed those children to who really wanted to learn, to be in the classes of those who really wanted to teach... (in my opinion) making individual plans wouldn't be so bad because you're not trying to force material down the throat of a child who simply doesn't care. As teachers we can't make them care, and yet parents and then administrators, and even future employers, are blaming us for students coming out without a work ethic, without a sense of responsibility, pride in their work, or the common sense to believe that they should show up on time, or do the task they were given through to completion.

    how's this relevant to the RFID tags? I used to live in Spring and taught in the district next to it. They're actually a pretty "calm" district comparatively. Not way out on the forefront of education, not in the ghettos. Just another suburban district on the outskirts of a large city. (I've heard rumor that even people in NY and LA recognize Houston as a "large city"). They have the luxury if you will, to try to throw new technology at old problems. they have some cash apparently, they're not having to spend it on metal detectors for every door, but tardiness and skipping? the tags them selves i would imagine are relatively cheap, and the scanners not too bad compared to some of the other ludicrous expenditures I've seen (and while teacher salaries fall in that category, its on the lower end of the spectrum).

    I can see how easily this could be sold to a school board, teachers and administrators. School board finally has some means of knowing where every child is. Administrators don't have to spend a fraction of their existing resources to implement or monitor this new system, and if done right, teachers are no longer responsible for the tedious tasks of attendance. (which in and of itself wouldn't be a problem if you didn't have 35 kids all coming in tardy-with various levels/legitimacies of excuses). Only the poor tech resource folks are contemplating suicide.

    But as another poster pointed out.. it does nothing for the kids except for give them something else to hate and manipulate. It doesn't hold them responsible for anything.

    It doesn't actually DO anything.

  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:46AM (#10841374)
    I skipped school most of the time after fifth grade. Why did I do this? It wasn't because I was stupid. It's because I was picked on. By picked on, I don't mean that people called me names and wouldn't hang out with me.

    See, I was successful in a couple of sports. In fact, I was nationally and internationally successful. I began with both sports when I was five years old and was a national/international champion by the age of eight and for many years after that. So you don't think I"m some goodie-two-shoe brat, I want to point out that I was not into these sports. I hated both of them but my dad was in both sports when he was a kid. He forced me into it agains the threat of beatings. I also received severe beatings when I did not win at a sporting event. This was a significant reason to not ever lose... so except for a couple incidences, I NEVER LOST. Anyway, the point is that I hated the sports I was so good in but was forced into them. And what is a ten year old kid going to do, fight back a 40 year old man?

    The problem is that being so good at these sports made me prime for being picked on and harassed in school by people who didn't understand or were jealous or... whatever. I never talked about my sports in school, because I didn't like the sports. It embarassed me more than anything.

    So back to school . . . As I said, it wasn't a matter of being called names and teased. Yes, that stuff happened. But more, I got into fights. Classmates would gang up on me during recess or lunch - or when the teacher was out of the room. They'd try and kick my ass. I always wound up kicking their asses instead. And, because I kicked their asses, I would be punished or even suspended. Nobody in the school cared that I didn't start the fights. It was only important that I didn't sit there passively and allow myself to be beaten to a bloody pulp. If I'd done that, the other kids would have been punished and I'd have been fine. I guess.

    It was also typical to be attacked by kids who were much older than me. When I was in junior high, I was attacked by four highschool juniors (13 year old being attacked by four 17 and 18 year olds). I was in a fight at least a couple times a month. It got to the point where I just stopped fighting back.

    If I fought back, I would be punished by teachers and school administrators. If I didn't fight back and I got beat up, I would be punished by my dad. When school administrators punished me, it would be along the lines of suspension or detention. When my dad punished me for *not* fighting, I would be punished more along the lines of a belt across my ass, a two-by-two across my back, a hose wrapped around my neck and then him lifting me into the air by it, hanging me in it, or being beat across the face with a cold welding torch.

    As much as I hated getting in trouble in school, being punished for defending myself was preferable to the punishment I'd receive if I was passive.

    So, most of my time in school was spent getting into fights, avoiding fights (I really hated it - nobody wants to be beat up and, because I was kind of a wuss inside, I hated it when I hurt other people, even if they deserved it). When I wasn't in school, I was practicing my sports. Always under the watchful eye of my dad, who was an assistant coach to both teams that I was on for both sports. If I did poorly in practice (I practiced EVERY night and went to competitions EVERY weekend all year long), I was beat on the way home. If I did well, I'd just receive a long lecture, on the way home, about all the things I should have still done better.

    By fifth grade, I got so tired of it that I started skipping school. I didn't cause trouble. I just went to quiet places where I could be alone and learn. I spent all day, while skiping school, in libraries and bookstores and museums, with the occasional trip to the arcade to blow off some steam.

    When highschool came, I thought it would be better. I'd have some of the same people I grew up throughout school life with but also ma
  • by enjo13 (444114) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @08:50AM (#10841415) Homepage
    Freedom is sometimes about doing the wrong thing, just as much as doing the right. In this case the people of this town decided (of their own volition) that this was what they wanted to do. This wasn't imposed by the faceless government, but by the people themselves (through their elected school board I'm assuming). That's freedom and democracy in action...

    That said, this is a really sad indication of the neo-conservative movement sweeping through America (particularly in the southern states such as Texas). This is the next logical step from the same people that brought you teen curfews.. The same people up in arms over the intro. to Monday Night football. The same people who become outraged at this slightest hint of sexuality... in short, in their (well founded IMHO) desire to protect their children and themselves, they've lost all semblance of reason. On the surface making sure kids stay in school and learn gives them the best chance for success as adults.. that's a noble cause. However, they've taken a shotgun approach here. Now they're teaching kids that humiliation and bold invasions of privacy should be expected... This doesn't create a society of good adults, but wildly disenfranchised and angry ones.

  • by phuturephunk (617641) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:03AM (#10841508)
    The problem with it is, this is just another measure..under the guise of child safety..to take responsibility away from the parent of teaching the child that learning is valuable. We don't instill respect in our children for knowledge, then we use draconian measures to attempt to chain them to the learning process.

    You know what that gets you from the average teenager?

    The finger..
  • by Dwonis (52652) * on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:09AM (#10841561)
    Your parents do, if you're underage.
  • Re:barcode (Score:3, Insightful)

    by mwood (25379) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:21AM (#10841655)
    [Paraphrase from the Revelation to John]

    Exactly the opposite of individual ID. The Mark of the Beast is the same for everyone, and doesn't identify anyone. Using that system, you could tell that somebody was in the school, but not who, because there no longer *is* any "who".
  • by Petaris (771874) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:21AM (#10841660)
    I work for a School District so I not only understand the need for some type of survalance and security I also am an advocate for it. If we had the funds to do so I would have a camera at every entrance, in every hall, and in every out of the way nook and crany. However tracking them like you would track shipments of merchandise or live stock is going overboard. In theory it seems a good idea but where would it end? Surely once the children have been tagged, whether it is strapped on or implanted, do you think that other places won't just start putting in rfid recievers to track them elsewhere? And how long do you think it would just be the children being tracked?

    This seems to me like it could be a starting point for tracking other individules. At first maybe prisoners or employees, then maybe hospital patients and millitary personel. And who is to keep any one with a rfid reciever from tracking you. I am not trying to say this is a conspirisy I am warning that there is a very real possibility this will lead somewhere we do not wish to be. Would you really feel safer knowing that the government or other agencies could track criminals and ex-criminals so they would be less likely to commit a crime, if it meant that they were also tracking you? Even if a system like that wasn't abused, how willing would you be to have your whereabouts know 24 hours a day to someone.

    Like I said I'm not trying to scare anyone into thinking this is a conspirisy I just am giving my opinion. Many people I am sure would point out other good reasons for this, like finding lost missing persons or locateing someone in a medical emergency or hundreds of other good reasons. And ultimatly anything can be used both for good and for bad. I just want you to ask yourselves, would you want to be tracked? Even if it could save your life?

    I am not attempting to draw trolls and I did not mean this as flaimbait. This is just asking you to think if it was you in there position.

    Thanks for reading,
  • Re:Insanity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Dashing Leech (688077) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:25AM (#10841687)
    Will you be so flippant with regard to their education and "exciting lives" when you have to pay more in taxes to help pay for their welfare check and/or jail term?

    That's not really a sound argument. The same could be said for anything we do that ends up costing tax payers money. People with bigger cars do more damage to the road. People who eat poorly require more medical attention (more hospitals, more medicare -- and in Canada health care is a direct drain on taxes). Are you saying we should regulate every individual's behaviour if it is going to affect the amount of taxes. Is that consistent with the concept of a free country?

  • by Hatta (162192) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:43AM (#10841807) Journal
    erm, kids don't have rights. thats why we don't let them vote....

    Blacks don't have rights, that's why we don't let them vote

    Women don't have rights, that's why we don't let them vote.

    Of course children have rights. Rights are not granted by the state, but innate. Nothing really dramatic happens to a person on their 18th birthday suddenly endowing them with rights. They've had them all along, it's just the state finally recognizes them. It seriously troubles me that people like you, who apparently find children morally equivalent to livestock are responsible for their education.
  • Re:Insanity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by DZign (200479) <averhe@gmaiBALDWINl.com minus author> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:51AM (#10841862) Homepage
    and have a near zero rate of illegal duplication, an absolute zero rate of misuse of the types of misuses discussed here, and they are effective.

    And why is there a near-zero rate up to now ?
    Because up they were used in such specific situations where usually nobody could have personal gain from misusing them.

    Once the technology gets more widespread, people may have valid reasons to crack or misuse the system and will find a way around it.
  • by warkda rrior (23694) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @09:52AM (#10841877) Homepage
    First, in reply to
    if you're not in the position to be affected by this, shut the hell up
    with apologies to Rev. Martin Niemoeller:
    "First they tagged the highschool students, but I was not a highschool student so I did not speak out. Then they tagged the policemen and the firefighters, but I was neither, so I did not speak out. Then they tagged the immigrants, but I was not an immigrant so I did not speak out. And when they tagged me, there was no one left to speak out for me."
    Fear the trend.

    Second, in reply to
    for the pupils, this is actually a benefit
    I think this is a benefit to the people who want to track the students, not the students. These RFID badges can be lost just like any other swipe card, so they do not benefit students more than a swipe card.
  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:4, Insightful)

    by mforbes (575538) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:10AM (#10842053)
    Where the issue is security, the RFID cards are used to keep doors unlocked unless a card is read to unlock them. This seems to be much more about tracking the comings & goings of students who already belong.

    Kind of interesting, since school security has two main concerns: keeping students where they belong (but with enough flexibility to allow them to leave for doctor's appointments, etc), and keeping out people who don't belong-- the divorced parent who lost custody but is determined to keep their child at any cost, for instance.

    Oh well, it's not like minors have rights in the US, so the schools are pretty much free to do what they want in this regard.
  • by Girckin (831557) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:27AM (#10842181) Homepage
    So in the future, child abductors don't actually have to go out and look for children anymore. They just use their RFID scanner to find children of the age and gender they're looking for? How the hell is this a good idea?
  • Re:Insanity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kabocox (199019) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:31AM (#10842214)
    If we set forth an example that it's OKAY for the authorities to monitor your every movement for our children now, how much easier do you think it will be able to convince them unwarranted searches are similarly okay in the future?

    School childern are already trained not to put up a fuss about school wide locker searches or searching of persons. Now they are being taught that have any concealing containers on you is wrong. How much longer until all school clothing is see through for a security measure?
  • by chadseld (761331) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:35AM (#10842238)
    At work, how many of you have a badge with one of those key cards that automagically opens doors when you wave it past the little black reader doohicky with the light on it? Do you realize you have been handed the same anti-libertarian treatment as these kids for years and never complained? I don't think it is right to track people this way. It is amaizing how these technologies have already become every day things for most of us.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:38AM (#10842265)
    OK. A reply from someone with 2 small kids who WILL be affected by this. This is not a 'benefit'. This is, at best, a very false sense of security. School administrators need to spend the money on better materials and/or more teachers instead of this crap. What happens when, in about 10 years time, when everyone is so used to these tags that they consider them infalible, there's a computer glitch and nobody notices that little Johnny is gone? The computer won't no or care that the actual student is gone as long as his 'tag' is there and everyone else is so used to depending on the computer, that they don't notice either.

    As a parent I have all the usual paranoia's about kidnappings, but I combat those by teaching my 2-year-old to know our address and watching both him & my 1-year-old like a hawk when they're in a vulnerable place. But if they never have the freedom to 'escape' from my view (or at least THINK they have), then they will never learn to act responsibly on their own. I don't want them to behave themselves because they think I'll catch them. I want them to behave themselves because they know they SHOULD.
  • by GauteL (29207) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:38AM (#10842266)
    While I do agree that on general kids should be in school, and certain measures should be put up to make them.

    However, nothing gets seriously broken by kids skipping classes very occasionally. How square are the kids supposed to be?

    Kids that are allowed a certain freedom and have some possibility of opposing authority grow up far more interesting.

    Just think how interesting you find a person who has never skipped class, never talked back at their parents etc.

    The truth is, the parental generation have always tried to impose severe restrictions on the younger generation, and the younger generation have always broken them. This is the way of life. The moment we make it impossible for kids to break their parents rules, we have changed the game in a way I don`t think we see the consequences of.

    It is ironic that we impose millions of laws and regulations, but the majority actually disrespects people that always live by them.

    There are certain things every (semi) interesting person have done. If you have never done any of the following you need to get out more:
    1. Skip class
    2. Go above the speed limit
    3. Take a u-turn where it wasn't allowed, but noone was around.
    4. Drink or smoke without being allowed to do so
    5. Sneak in somewhere you don't belong.

    I will put up rules for my children and I will be fairly strict about some of them. But if my children never breaks my rules I would be suspicious that they are hiding something major, or disappointed that my kids grew up to be that square.

    A well balanced human being bends or breaks rules now and then, but know which rules they really should abide by. The important lesson is to teach the children which rules are absolute, and which can be bent a little.
  • by ajs (35943) <ajs AT ajs DOT com> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:43AM (#10842318) Homepage Journal
    I've always wondered how we can expect our kids to fight for liberty later when we gave them none.

    If you mean "fight" in the sense of soldiering, don't worry that's the easy part. The mental conditioning that is employed in the military (any military) is designed to enhance the bonds that men (mostly men, though women take to it, the bonds are different, as they provoke more of a defensive than offensive FoF reflex) form in small social groups. The end result is that to a soldier "freedom" is like a team name. You might as well say "Red Sox". If you think that can't be the case because soldiers are willing to die "for freedom", think about what would happen if you killed a member of a baseball team. The other players would be willing to kill and/or die to either prevent or avenge that killing, even though they probably never knew each other before joining the team. Such is the power of the team instinct in humans.

    So, you could call an opressive dictatorship "freedom", just as long as your soldiers are indoctrinated to defend it.

    The real question is a much more frightening one: how can we expect our kids to defend freedom as our future leaders when we didn't given them any as children? To what depths will our future judges, congresspersons and presidents sink when they have been treated like this growing up?

    That one keeps me up at night.
  • Re:Just Imagine (Score:4, Insightful)

    by HeghmoH (13204) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:43AM (#10842321) Homepage Journal
    We also have to make sure that Susie who takes one day to learn plate tectonics doesn't get too far ahead of Johnny who takes 4 days.

    This bizarre belief that every student should advance in their knowledge at exactly the same rate is the primary reason I hated all of my schooling until I got to college. Why shouldn't Susie get too far ahead of Johnny? Why shouldn't she be able to spend those three extra days learning the subject in more depth, or painting, or playing in the sandbox?

    From the beginning of elementary school to the end of high school, I suffered from this. I pick things up quickly and don't need a lot of repetition. As a result, I was forced to do a great deal of homework that I didn't need, attend classes that weren't interesting, and I generally hated the experience. (Not everything was this way, but close.) Once I got to college, where homework is more of a check than a forced study aid, where classes are dense, and where people are expected to do more on their own if they need practice, things got a lot better.

    I realize the situation is different at the lower levels, and I don't have a proposed solution, but I still believe that this idea that all children must learn at approximately the same rate, and they must stay in a group of other children with exactly the same age, is one of the more poisonous ones in our educational system.
  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:3, Insightful)

    by kin_korn_karn (466864) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:43AM (#10842322) Homepage
    This should help with the offtopic.

    Congratulations on making it out of that situation alive. There is no "right" way to grow up, and you did what you have to do. I admire you, if your story is true (I'm sure you understand why I'm adding that clause, this being the internet and all.)

    I've known many kids that were in your situation, but not necessarily about sports. They invariably turned to drugs and/or burnt out before they finished their freshman year of college.

    You're right about the shootings, too. School shootings happen because the kids are caged animals that have no other option in their mind than to lash out violently. School admin doesn't give a fuck, nor do their parents. Look at Columbine. Look at Jonesboro, AR. Look at Grayson, KY. That was the first in the big wave of shootings in the 90's and it happened at a high school near mine. The kid that was the shooter was one of these kids that I was talking about. I knew him and competed against him in our local academic competition league.

    Such a fucking waste, because adults can't stop using their children to cover up their insecurities and shortcomings.
  • Re:Insanity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by HeghmoH (13204) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:53AM (#10842414) Homepage Journal
    There is a huge difference between a marathon and a school.

    The participants in a marathon are all consenting adults. They are able to refuse to participate. The students in a school are children who have no choice about attending.

    RFID is different from all previous forms of identification because it's the only one which can be reliably read from a distance without your consent. Remember that the short range of these devices is simply due to the power and sensitivity of the detector. Bluetooth isn't supposed to work from the next room down, but people have made it work over more than a kilometer away. Forcing people (not to mention children!) to carry identifying information that can be read involuntarily from a distance is evil. I'm not normally a tin-foil hatter, but I'm already thinking about countermeasures to use when my passport expires in seven years and I get a shiny new one with an RFID tag in it.
  • by edwdig (47888) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @10:56AM (#10842455)
    and another change to call evolution an unproven theory.

    We can never prove that man evolved from apes. We can find evidence to suggest that it's highly likely that it happened, but that's as far as we can go.

    Well, if you invent time travel and set out to document you entirely ancestry all the way back to an ape, you could prove it, but I wouldn't bet on the odds of that happening.

    So yes, evolution is an unproven theory. It just happens to best one that we have at the moment.
  • Re:Just Imagine (Score:2, Insightful)

    by Fallen_Knight (635373) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @11:25AM (#10842736)
    Maybe johnny doesn't want to learn plate techtonics? Why should he be forced to learn it?

    The only required subjects should be math and english. And even then not to the degree math is no and not english lit, grammer and spelling.

    The problem with the current school system is that it assumes everyon learns the same way and forces them to learn a large range of things that they will simpley forget once then ware out of highschool.

    And for a student who is not going to collage or university they should be learning a trade, or other skills that could help them. But they key thing is they should pick it. Not be forced to learn it. if you force somsone to learn somethging they won't learn it, they will remeber it for the test and then forget it.

    Just say you need X credits to pass highschool and let the students pick enough courses to get that number. Just doing that i think would allow for a much happier student body and allow for more educated students, true not all going to know the same things but overall they will kknow and keep more knowlage and give them a chance to sample many diffrent type sof clsses if they so want to.

    And i hate that if theres a fast student and a slow student the fast student is held back. Give the fast stuend all the amterial and let then go on ahead on their own if they want.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @11:29AM (#10842778)
    So, as I understand it, your post was a really longwinded way of simply saying "If you don't have anything to hide, you have nothing to fear."
  • Why ? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by bmajik (96670) <matt@mattevans.org> on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @11:40AM (#10842922) Homepage Journal
    I'm also wondering why it would be nessisary to CC the police on who didn't show up in the morning

    Because the public school system in the United States is a holding pen and work/release program for those not yet legally required to work and pay taxes.

    The police need to know when prisoners have escaped, don't they?
  • by Jeremiah Cornelius (137) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @11:46AM (#10843034) Homepage Journal
    SECRECY NEWS
    from the FAS Project on Government Secrecy
    Volume 2004, Issue No. 100
    November 14, 2004
    • THE ARRIVAL OF SECRET LAW
    • TSA THREATENS TO ARREST LEAKERS
    • SUPPORT SECRECY NEWS

    THE ARRIVAL OF SECRET LAW

    Last month, Helen Chenoweth-Hage attempted to board a United Airlines flight from Boise to Reno when she was pulled aside by airline personnel for additional screening, including a pat-down search for weapons or unauthorized materials.

    Chenoweth-Hage, an ultra-conservative former Congresswoman (R-ID), requested a copy of the regulation that authorizes such pat-downs.

    "She said she wanted to see the regulation that required the additional procedure for secondary screening and she was told that she couldn't see it," local TSA security director Julian Gonzales told the Idaho Statesman (10/10/04).

    "She refused to go through additional screening [without seeing the regulation], and she was not allowed to fly," he said. "It's pretty simple."

    Chenoweth-Hage wasn't seeking disclosure of the internal criteria used for screening passengers, only the legal authorization for passenger pat-downs. Why couldn't they at least let her see that? asked Statesman commentator Dan Popkey.

    "Because we don't have to," Mr. Gonzales replied crisply.

    "That is called 'sensitive security information.' She's not allowed to see it, nor is anyone else," he said.

    Thus, in a qualitatively new development in U.S. governance, Americans can now be obligated to comply with legally-binding regulations that are unknown to them, and that indeed they are forbidden to know.

    This is not some dismal Eastern European allegory. It is part of a continuing transformation of American government that is leaving it less open, less accountable and less susceptible to rational deliberation as a vehicle for change.

    Harold C. Relyea once wrote an article entitled "The Coming of Secret Law" (Government Information Quarterly, vol. 5, no. 2, 1988) that electrified readers (or at least one reader) with its warning about increased executive branch reliance on secret presidential directives and related instruments.

    Back in the 1980s when that article was written, secret law was still on the way. Now it is here.

    A new report from the Congressional Research Service describes with welcome clarity how, by altering a few words in the Homeland Security Act, Congress "significantly broadened" the government's authority to generate "sensitive security information," including an entire system of "security directives" that are beyond public scrutiny, like the one former Rep. Chenoweth-Hage sought to examine.

    The CRS report provides one analyst's perspective on how the secret regulations comport or fail to comport with constitutional rights, such as the right to travel and the right to due process. CRS does not make its reports directly available to the public, but a copy was obtained by Secrecy News.

    See "Interstate Travel: Constitutional Challenges to the Identification Requirement and Other Transportation Security Regulations," Congressional Research Service, November 4, 2004:

    Much of the CRS discussion revolves around the case of software designer and philanthropist John Gilmore, who was prevented from boarding an airline flight when he refused to present a photo ID. (A related case involving no-fly lists [aclu.org] has been brought by the ACLU.)

    "I will not show government-issued identity papers to travel in my own country," Mr. Gilmore said.

    Mr. Gilmore's insistence on his right to preserve anonymity while traveling on commercial aircraft is naturally debatable -- but the government will not debate it. Instead, citing the statute on "sensitive security information," the Bush Administration says the case cannot be argued in open court.

    Further

  • Re:Insanity (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Frobnicator (565869) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @12:03PM (#10843248) Journal
    I agree with your comments about kids NOT consenting. As their parent, I wouldn't consent to my kids being tracked, and having their info sent to the police.

    Just like I wouldn't consent to my boss installing a tracker for when I arrive at work. Although they already use electronic door keycards to unlock the outside door, usually enough people arrive at the same time that only one or two people get scanned for the large group. And there's always people who forgot their cards and nobody knows.

    I'm not normally a tin-foil hatter, but I'm already thinking about countermeasures to use when my passport expires in seven years and I get a shiny new one with an RFID tag in it.
    Put it in the microwave. [slashdot.org]
  • by bucket74 (712690) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @12:19PM (#10843453)
    As a strong privacy advocate, regular supporter of the EFF and a tech in the RFID industry I would like to comment on some of the false assumptions that are being made (here and elsewhere) about RFID.

    People are assuming RFID technology has a whole lot more capability than it actually does. Let's look at the issue of sensing range/proximity. The most common (and least expensive) type of tags are passive RFID tags. Passive RFID tags have no battery or on-chip power source. They are powered via current induction by (typically) 13.56MHz RF. Because they have no internal power source their read/write range is very limited (read: 2-8 inches from an RFID antenna/reader combination). Greater read distances can be achieve by using an active (battery powered) tag but even then you're looking at a range of a few feet. It is not a very realistic speculation that active tags would be used on any scale for human implants because of cost *and* the need to replace the implant when the battery dies.

    I also think it's rather funny that a lot of people in this forum have "joked" about getting out aluminum foil or tinfoil hats to hide from the RFID gestapo. What many people don't realize is foil (or any metal) does a magnificent job of blocking RFID. There is no need for the mythical RFID blocker tag. Not that I encourage thisbut all anyone would have to do to circumvent RFID retail security for example would be to put all the items you'd like to shoplift in a foil lined bag. RFID's not that strong - no need for a Faraday cage here. You may joke, but this is a case where tinfoil hats would actually work (bring on more jokes).

    I will not argue over the benfits or detriments of using RFID. I work with the stuff every day, and I'm still not convinced. What I will argue over is unrealistic paranoia. If I have to hold an RFID antenna so close to you that I can physically touch you, just to read the tag - what is the real concern? I can track you more effectively using my eyes and you're license plate. There's sure to be plenty of bullshit RFID implementations from here on out but worry about how illogical the implementation is, not that the technology is inherently evil.
  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:2, Insightful)

    by wronskyMan (676763) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @12:24PM (#10843530)
    Umm... students are required to attend public school unless their parents can pony up for private school/homeschooling, so there is no "well you chose to be here so you agreed to give up your privacy" argument.
  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:4, Insightful)

    by double-oh three (688874) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @12:25PM (#10843539)
    The counterargument is that we shouldn't be teaching teenagers and kids that they are A. always being monitored and have no privacy, B. that they are not trustworthy and C. acclimating them to both of those so they don't put up so much of a fight for them later. We would be better served by a population that got used to it's rights early and had some sense of what they were and more importantly what they should be.

    And I'm not arguing against keeping kids in class during class, I'm arguing against them tracking us via RFIDs and keeping a very tight leash on us. They treat people in High School like they're in Elementary School with the amount of things they entrust to us. A good number of us are able to make our own decisions at this age and we need more flexibility, not less.
  • Don't tag everyone (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Mordaximus (566304) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @12:32PM (#10843642)
    Keep track of the troublemakers. If a student gets suspended for skipping, violence or something similar, tag em. Make it clear that students who break the rules x number of times will be tagged. Give them room to make mistakes, but make it understood that if they make too many, part of the punishment is intrusive observation.

    Likewise, I'd love to see convicted criminals tagged in someway. Wouldn't it be nice if store owners could identify convicted shoplifters when they enter the store? Sell a consumer scanner that will tell you if a convicted murderer or rapist is nearby when you go for your jog. Or if they are on your property! If your car alarm could sound when a car thief tag is nearby for too long.

    I know, there is too much potential for abuse. A man can dream though. And it would sure beat "that guy looks shady" as a method of identifying potential criminals :)

  • Re:Wonder why (Score:3, Insightful)

    by npsimons (32752) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @12:34PM (#10843673) Homepage Journal

    In an age when parents are suing schools for not keeping adequate track of their children (see http://www.overlawyered.com/archives/001699.html) is this any wonder?

    Am I the only one who thinks that the solution to this is not more invasions of privacy (via tags), but less legal bullshit (via less lawyers, more personal responsibility, and less stupid laws)?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @01:04PM (#10844034)
    The purpose of RFID tracking people is to cause a chilling effect. This is denied in the case of children and the public, but is the primary reason given for tagging criminals
    I have never seen much difference in the way that criminals and children are treated...
  • Re:Cutting Class (Score:2, Insightful)

    by LilGuy (150110) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @02:17PM (#10844818)
    On the contrary...

    The wave of the future is simply to abandon the idea of school that was dreamed up during the Industrial Revolution. We now have technology that will allow students to excel way beyond anywhere today's schools can get them.

    The problem seems to be that people don't realize what the problem is. We just need to change how we view the education process and what exactly we are trying to accomplish with it, and then overhaul the system. We don't all need to BE somewhere to learn. Many will, many won't.

    Its almost laughable how badly the government and school districts struggle these days with the money issues, drop out rates, and whatnot.

    I like to compare it to this hypothetical (however unlikely) situation : all the major car companies in the world trying to come up with a hydrogen to diesel to unleaded gas engine, instead of just starting anew and creating a hydrogen gas engine.
  • by Reziac (43301) * on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @02:42PM (#10845109) Homepage Journal
    True, but... too often, kids already suffer from the feeling that no one trusts them. Now they'll know FOR SURE that their parents don't trust them. And what happens then? The kid says "Fuck it, if they don't trust me anyway, I might as well do what I want and lie about it."

  • by Reziac (43301) * on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @03:00PM (#10845334) Homepage Journal
    See my post above about how if you SHOW that you don't trust your children, it works against you. Trustworthyness is itself largely generated by showing that you trust your child to do the right thing.

    I swear there's a Stupid Gene that gets turned on when people have kids, that makes them forget how much it sucked to be a kid -- to have NO privacy, to have NOTHING of your own, the sense of being OWNED by your parents, the sense that NO ONE TRUSTS YOU, and that YOU DON'T MATTER.

    The most important thing you can give your kids isn't love, or security, or a good life, or even an education. It's PRIVACY. The sense that they are a REAL PERSON, with their own inviolate "space", and with needs that matter -- everything else good in a kid's life follows from that, as it tells a kid they are a real person in their parents' eyes, not just property.

    And if a kid doesn't get that critical need from their home life, they'll go looking for it elsewhere, usually in all the wrong ways.

    Tracking your kid 24 hours a day tells the kid in no uncertain terms that he is both property and untrusted. And nothing you TELL your kid can counteract that. To a kid, actions speak louder than words.

  • by Oligonicella (659917) on Wednesday November 17, 2004 @05:07PM (#10846901)
    So, you'd rather there be no emergency plans?

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