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Media Hardware

Toshiba To Offer Laptops With HD-DVD in 2005 107

Posted by samzenpus from the what-about-the-sound dept.
LBArrettAnderson writes "Toshiba will release laptops with HD-DVD under its high-end Qosmio brand and plans to ship one million units in the first year to Europe, the U.S. and China, as well as Japan. The company claims the slimline HD-DVD format is more suitable to laptop PCs than the rival Blu-ray Disc format."
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Toshiba To Offer Laptops With HD-DVD in 2005 More

Toshiba To Offer Laptops With HD-DVD in 2005

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  • Better suited for laptops? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by BobPaul ( 710574 ) * on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:22PM (#10581140) Journal
    They say the HD-DVD is better suited for laptops than Blu-Ray, but they don't say why?

    Are they heavily invested in Blu-Ray? Is that maybe why? Or is there actually a technical reason?

    • Re:Better suited for laptops? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by megalomang ( 217790 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:29PM (#10581211)
      You mean heavily invested in HD-DVD? The answer is most definitely yes [dvdforum.org]. They would not be on the steering committee without a vested interest in the format. The early release is clearly an attempt to advance the HD-DVD market penetration.

      Reasons why HD-DVD could be better suited for a laptop (I don't know which apply though):

      consumes less power

      is less susceptible to vibration

      smaller form factor

      less heat dissipated (either due to disc rpm or embedded processing)

      • Re:Better suited for laptops? (Score:4, Insightful)

        by Txiasaeia ( 581598 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:39PM (#10581291)
        Battery power is crucial on a notebook comp. Your first reason could very likely be it.
        • I don't think we have any evidence that any of the conditions the parent listed were true, as the poster said "I don't know which of these apply".

      • Re:Better suited for laptops? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        # less heat dissipated (either due to disc rpm or embedded processing)

        Why limit your selves to spinning the disc? Why not have a fixed disc and have the laptop spin around... really fast? Now that's what I'd call a super-twist display!

      • Re:Better suited for laptops? (Score:1, Insightful)

        by Anonymous Coward
        Taking a hint from another slashdot post [slashdot.org] there's probably only 1 technical reason:
        HD-DVD uses a red laser, so it can read current DVDs without a hybrid setup. A Blu-Ray player would need 2 lasers (1 red, 1 blue) to read old DVDs and Blu-Ray disks. Since 1 laser is cheaper than 2 lasers, it's better suited for a laptop (higher margins)

        Oh, and they are on the steering committee, like you said. That's probably the main reason... But from a technical standpoint, they want higher profit margins.
      • The HD-DVD format uses a thicker substrate than Blu-Ray, and hence needs less precise focusing, and thus probably would do better from a vibration perspective.
    • No, they're going the HD-DVD path instead of Blu-Ray, but they're trying to push it to market first in the computer sector. Sony, Pioneer, Fox, and JVC are signed on for Blu-Ray, and want to make that the universal standard. They've already announced Blu-Ray camcorders, and the next PlayStation as using Blu-Ray technology.

      Just sounds like another marketing punch to sway people to their side. No real technical reason.

      • Adspeak (Score:2, Informative)

        by winterdrake ( 823887 )
        The format Toshiba supports is actually called AOD (Advanced Optical Disk) and HD-DVD can refer equally to AOD or Blu-Ray.
    • from the blurb "The company claims the slimline HD-DVD format".

      they claim the mechanics take less space. may be true.
      • I'm not sure you can draw that conclusion from that statement. They already sell slimline DVD and CD players in laptops. I think slimline just refers to the form factor of the particular drive they're selling. It doesn't mean that slimlin blu-ray drives are impossible or more difficult to manufacture
        • from the a "The spokeswoman said the slimline HD-DVD format is particularly suitable to laptop PCs, compared with its rival Blu-ray Disc format."

          I'd think that it refers to the hd-dvd being more suitable for slimline installations in laptops.

          iirc bluray discs are thicker, too.
        • With how many different formats of ATAPI drives we have, perhaps desktop ATAPI drives should slim down as well (or their SATA equivalent). Otherwise I may find it difficult to fit in CD-RW, DVD+/-R(W) +DL, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray drives in a single case with only two 5.25" bays with front access for maximum access speeds and compatibility. (Dedicated CD-RWs tend to be able to read and burn CDs faster than multi-format DVD burners. And presuming something in that set still has DVD-RAM compatibility.)

          If they

  • Beta vs. VHS, part two. IT'S ON!!! (Score:3, Funny)

    by cryptochrome ( 303529 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:23PM (#10581151) Journal
    Here we go again.
    • I don't agree. Unlike Beta vs. VHS, we now have studios with an interest in the new technology instead of a fear of it. In fact, they are now beginning to align with the different formats.

      It was the studios that ultimately forced the compromises that led to a single SD-DVD format, and I think the same will happen with Blu-Ray. Whichever format has the clear majority of titles in print wins.

      • It was the studios that ultimately forced the compromises that led to a single SD-DVD format, and I think the same will happen with Blu-Ray.

        Well, sort of. The studios backed DVD, and then some of the studios branched off and were trying to support DIVX (the throw-away, incompatible DVD rival). Then the consumers proceeded to hit those studios and everyone associated with DIVX with a clue-by-four, and now we have a single DVD standard. /my clue-by-four is at the ready...
        • I thought DIVX was more of an extension to the DVD format such that the dvd drives themselves were the same but different firmware/software, whereas blu-ray and HD-DVD are completely different formats in no way compatible.
          • Yes, that is true, DIVX was built on DVD technology. But if the players and discs are incompatible, and some studios support one and not the other, the effect on the market would be the same as if HD-DVD and Blu-Ray both became "popular" for movies. The studios and the standards bodies need to get together with the technology folks and settle on one standard.
      • I dont really see a winner emerging, at least not for a while. With betamax/vhs, studios had to try to cater to the format most of their consumers were using, but with hd/br soon into it (as has been speculated by many others) someone will release dvd players that can handle both formats, and as with dvd+/-r the consumers wont care which format the dvd they are buying is.
        Then eventually, i think the studios will only standardise over one format if its either cheaper (?), or offers more features/space (blu-

  • Question (Score:3, Insightful)

    by fredistheking ( 464407 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:24PM (#10581164)
    Besides being competiting formats is there any major differences between HD-DVD and Blu-ray? If not, how long will it be before there are drives that support both formats like DVD+/-RW drives?

    • Re:Question (Score:3, Informative)

      by dledeaux ( 174743 )
      HD-DVD is supposed to be directly backwardly compatible with current DVD technology, whereas Blu-Ray is not unless the player is built with red laser capability.
    • Well, it depends on what you mean by *major* differences.

      Blu-Ray will certain hold more information than HD-DVD.

      HD-DVD is like DVD in the respect to the pieces of plastic (2 .6mm pieces of plastic bonded together); Blu-Ray is 1 .1mm piece of plastic on top of a 1.1mm piece of plastic.

      They are using the same wavelength of laser. I would expect someone to come up with a drive that reads both formats.

    • Two main differences. (Score:5, Informative)

      by pavon ( 30274 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:41PM (#10581304)
      The differences are greater than between DVD+/-RW. HD-DVD is easier for manufacturers, because the production process is simular to DVD.

      Blue-ray on the other hand has larger capacities. This is important as some experts think that fitting a HD (1080i or 720p) movie onto HD-DVD will be a tight squeeze so there will be no room for special features, and higher compression than desired may be required :(

      Building players that can handle DVD will be equally easy for both formats. I don't know about a single player that could do both HD-DVD and Blue-ray.
      • Isn't 720p the same resolution as on regular DVDs now? In fact, if the player does the pulldown and the data is at 24fps, isn't it about 5/6ths of the file size as 30 fps NTSC video?
      • Well, if you were using MPEG-2, it'd be a bit of a stretch to get a long movie on a single-layer HD-DVD. But with the VC-1 and H.264 codecs available, you'll be able to get at least as much HD content on a HD-DVD as SD content on today's DVD.

    • how long will it be before there are drives that support both formats

      Expect to see combo drives, supporting both HD-DVD and Blu-ray about the same time you see floppy drives combined with CD drives.
  • From the article: "The structure of the HD-DVD format is similar to the current DVD format, which enables us to cost the new PC at a price similar to currently available models," Toshiba spokeswoman Junko Furuta said.

    What marketroid told them that a near-miss for Quasimodo was a good brand name? Hmpf! ``Qosmio'' indeed.

  • Would HD-DVD be compatible with our current DVD standard?

    I wonder if they would have more DRM on these new DVDs too :(

    • Re:One question though.. (Score:5, Informative)

      by mcg1969 ( 237263 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:34PM (#10581256)
      You will need a new player to play HD-DVDs. However, you will be able to play old DVDs on these new players.

      The DRM will indeed be stronger. The "AACS" system is being considered for both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. Over at AVS Forum [avsforum.com] we've been talking about these formats a lot, with input an industry rep on the Blu-Ray side. The DRM will not prevent good old-fashoned "insert and hit play", but it will prevent uncontrolled ripping and copying. It remains to be seen if they will support media servers and other applications but AACS does provide that capability.
      • The DRM will not prevent good old-fashoned "insert and hit play", but it will prevent uncontrolled ripping and copying

        I'll believe that when I see it. Copy-protection has been a trade-off between protection and ability to use the data since the idea was first conceived.

        The marketing drones always say it won't interfere with normal use. Even the CD DRM that prevents it from being played at all on computers, DVD players and older CD players.

        Jason
        ProfQuotes [profquotes.com]

        • Re:One question though.. (Score:5, Insightful)

          by mcg1969 ( 237263 ) on Thursday October 21, 2004 @12:45AM (#10583107)
          Even the CD DRM that prevents it from being played at all on computers, DVD players and older CD players.

          There's a big difference here: copy protection is not built into the CD standard, so any copy protection system necessarily violates the standard. In this case, copy protection will be built into the standard, so all players will support it.

          Having said that, I have no doubt that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray both will be far less flexible than CD or DVD in playback due to the protection schemes employed. Ironically, Microsoft's presence in these format discussions will work in our favor here. They are certainly going to work towards PC-compatible playback, and whatever they enable will be enabled in Linux as well by the nature of the standard.

          • whatever they enable will be enabled in Linux as well by the nature of the standard.

            no, microsoft will have a decryption key for windows built-in, and linux will be left high and dry.
            • no, microsoft will have a decryption key for windows built-in, and linux will be left high and dry.

              If the market is large enough, a Linux HD-DVD player will be developed.

              But if people expect it for free (beer), then I agree with you, it ain't gonna happen.

      • Oh really? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by foreverdisillusioned ( 763799 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @08:20PM (#10581557) Journal
        The DRM will not prevent good old-fashoned "insert and hit play", but it will prevent uncontrolled ripping and copying.

        ...for the first couple of months, you mean.

        I really wonder why they even bother. Unless they include hardware DRM to disallow access to all unauthorized programs, this WILL be cracked. And either one does do such a thing, the other one will almost assuredly win the format wars.

        My message to MPAA is this: Save your money. Leave it unencrypted. Let us do what we want with our movies. The VCR did not put you out of business, and neither will this.
        • I really wonder why they even bother. Unless they include hardware DRM to disallow access to all unauthorized programs, this WILL be cracked. And either one does do such a thing, the other one will almost assuredly win the format wars.

          First of all, both formats are considering the same DRM. I suspect that there will be no differentiation between the two formats in this respect.

          Secondly, don't be too sure about the ability of these DRM measures to be cracked. It is not instructive to look at DVD as a lesson

          • I have not read up on the specifics, but my reasoning is as follows:

            At some point, the video must be decrypted in order for it to play. If it can be decrypted for viewing, it can be decrypted for recording. Now, maybe they'll only allow approved, closed source software to play Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, but that alone isn't enough. As soon as either standard replaces DVD, we'll see millions of eyes and minds trained on this new format. Some will want to exploit it, but some will just want to be able to play
            • Oh yeah, SACD and DVD-A might be uncracked now, but neither one has supplanted the CD yet. Once the CD is long gone, there will be a much greater interest in cracking the new format.

              I'm sure some won't agree with me, but SACD and DVD-A are (IMO) both unnecessary formats. CD audio -- 16 bits at 44.1 KHz sample rate -- is far more than good enough for most people. Anything more is just wasted bits/bandwidth.

              They are counting on the fact that people will buy it because it's "better", even if (given the limi
              • Actually I have an AES paper on my desktop discussing the audible limitations of the 16-bit, 44.1kHz CD format. They make some pretty persuasive arguments, using experimental psychoacoustic data, for a bare minimum of 11-bits, 52kHz if you use perfect noise shaping, and 19-bit, 52kHz if you use straight linear PCM. But that's a theoretical minimum based on our hearing threshold curve. They also argue persuasively for the need to do dithering, so you really need a couple more bits than that.

                On top of that,

        • I really wonder why they even bother. Unless they include hardware DRM to disallow access to all unauthorized programs, this WILL be cracked.

          Sure, it'll be cracked. Then the cracker will go to jail. His friends will go to jail too. Those "info wants to be free" guys who posted copies on their web sites? Yep, jail. Oh, and remember when you mentioned to your neighbor how you'd like to copy the movies to your media center so you can keep the disks safe? He got the $100 bounty by reporting you, while y

        • it will prevent uncontrolled ripping and copying. ...for the first couple of months, you mean. I really wonder why they even bother. Unless they include hardware DRM to disallow access to all unauthorized programs, this WILL be cracked.

          I'm not so sure. I'm thinking of the XBox, which uses a 2048-bit key. It has not been cracked, and even a massive distributed effort to do so can be shown to be mathematically infeasible. There are mod chips, but that's not cracking the DRM...

        • Directv shut down the HU card about six months ago leaving millions of sat pirates in the cold. Their replacement, a.k.a. the P4/P5 card has been around for two years and afaik there has been no real progress on hacking/reverse-engineering it.

          Unlike other pirate industries, the underground sat market is a huge money maker. The rewards are higher for hacking sat technology because you can resell it to friends and associates.

          Despite a huge distributed effort, no one has been able to put a dent in Dave's ne
  • Will I be able to burn DVDs right away on this thing in Linux?

    Heck, I installed Fedora Core 2 and dvd burning apps on there still say that I can't burn DVDs without some kind of binary closed source addon. ARGH.

    • Re:Will it be Linux burn-compatible? (Score:5, Informative)

      by erikharrison ( 633719 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @08:16PM (#10581527)
      You're probably using Xcdroast, yes? That requires dvdrecord-pro, a binary only product from the same guy who makes the GPL cdrecord. dvdrecord is free for personal use, but requires a special key to run in free mode. A couple of Google look ups and you'll be burning in no time.

      Unless you're opposed to it's nature as binary only. In which case you can use Nautilus's built in DVD recording abilities, which use growisofs, which is GPL.

  • Them and who else? (Score:5, Informative)

    by Pete Brubaker ( 35550 ) <pbman96@NOsPAM.hotmail.com> on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:50PM (#10581376) Homepage Journal
    Take a look at the Blu-Ray [blu-ray.com] website. I think the only company that's missing in the industry partner list is Toshiba. Plus after reading some documentation internal to my company regarding manufacturing costs of Blu-Ray discs they are cheaper to make than HD-DVD's in both cost per disc and cost per gigabyte.

    In the past we've seen products like the Beta format for example that have a small industry following just go by the wayside. It seems such that HD-DVD is progressing along the same path. Time will tell I guess.

  • Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD (Score:4, Interesting)

    by disbaldman ( 804041 ) on Wednesday October 20, 2004 @07:55PM (#10581404)
    Although Blu-Ray may hold more information (25GB/layer * 2 layers = 50GB vs 15GB * 2 layers = /30GB for HD-DVD), I personally am sick of Sony trying to push their proprietary standards out again. They do have a large backing for Blu-Ray, but if you take a look back at their other (and more expensive) dead-end proprietary products--namely Mini-Discs and Memory Sticks, I wouldn't count HD-DVD out just yet...
    • I don't think you understand what a "dead-end" product is. Sony is so big that even if no other manufacturer supports their formats, they will continue to exist, and be popular, as long as Sony wants.

      Mini-disc is example 1. Been around 15+ years. You cans till buy them, and are still popular among certain crowds. I don't see that as a 'dead-end product'.

      Memory stick is an even better example. Guess who the #1 maker and seller of digital cameras in the world is? Sony. Guess what format all those cameras us
    • A good example of while I think /. should have stopped accepting new users at the 600,000 mark.
      • Just filter out the people with the highest membership numbers. I subtract a point for anyone with the top 5% highest membership #'s.
        • Clever. I never thought of doing that, despite having seen that option several times.

          Then again, the problem is that others will still see it, mod up the idiocy, etc. If everyone ignores the new users, there will be nobody left to call bullshit...
    • Well, Blu-Ray (or HD-DVD for that matter) is as proprietary as CD (standard made by Sony and Philips).
    • Blue Ray has a magic bullet: PS3 is blue ray, and PS2's production volume alone is enough to justify commercial work. Sony held the dvd writable wars pretty much all on its own. They lost betamax and minidisc, but they won 3.5" floppy and the console wars.

      Also, memory stick is about to be the default memory format for both the PS3 and the PSP. Memory Stick won't be an also-ran for much longer, I'm afraid.
  • I hear that Philips' profitability is largely contributed to by the fact that they own the IP on media like CDs, DVDs and previously, audio cassettes. No wonder so many companies are involved in the fight!
  • Slimline HD-DVD? Correct me if I am wrong, but both HD-DVD and BluRay are about 1-2mm thick. Unless something has changed, I don't think that will be a major contributing factor to laptop thickness. Also, since they are not burning BluRay, at least at first, aren't the power differences between the blue and red lasers going to be negligable, like .03W vs .05W?
  • Ok, this isn't the right place to ask this question, and I'll definately get moded down, but can someone explain to me the difference between a Pentium M and a Pentium 4. I see laptop companies selling what should be high end laptops, one with a Pentium 4 3GHz and one with a Pentium M 1.7GHz.

    Is there something I'm missing about Pentium Ms that make their considerably lower speed not such a big drawback compared to the Pentium 4s? Why, if given the choice, or similar pricing, would anyone choose a Pentium
  • Can't we skip over the HD/blu-ray generation and wait another 10 years before my DVD's are obsolete?

  • As some have stated, Blu-Ray discs will indeed have greater storage capacities in terms of raw bytes. However, they have chosen to only support MPEG-2 compression whereas HD-DVD will support several MPEG-4 variations (including H.264). What this means is that even though HD-DVD's have a significantly smaller storage space they will in fact be capable of storing more video at equal quality.

    FACTS:
    HD-DVD
    Dual Layer Storage: 30 GB
    Max HiDef Video: 4.5 hours

    Blu-Ray
    Dual Layer Storage: 50GB
    Max HiDef Video: 4 hou

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