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Data Storage Hardware Technology

SimpleTech Announces 8GB Compact Flash Card 279

alterego writes "Digital Photography Review is reporting that SimpleTech has announced 2, 4, 5 and 8GB Type II Compact Flash Cards utilizing its patented IC Tower stacking technology. This comes just a month after Hitachi announced its 4GB HD in under an inch, and less than one year after Lexar announced the first 4 GB CF card, marking a huge leap in drive density. And at only $5,999 it is sure "to meet budget and performance requirements.""
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SimpleTech Announces 8GB Compact Flash Card

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  • by swordboy ( 472941 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:37AM (#8248414) Journal
    With this, and digital cameras like Canon's new S1 IS [powershot.com] with digital image stabilization and DV-quality movie capture, I'm not sure why anyone would need a camcorder anymore. Err... rather, cameras and camcorders are going to be on-in-the-same very soon...
  • You know... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by MoeMoe ( 659154 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:42AM (#8248497)
    You know the computers you work with are pretty damn old when you see a Flash Card that's larger than your hard drive (can't make this stuff up people, Maxtor 6.2 GB HDD)...

    How long until we see the obligatory "Yea, but how much pr0n can it fit" posts?
  • Re:WHAT??!?! (Score:4, Insightful)

    by dubdays ( 410710 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:43AM (#8248500)
    The one good thing that can/will/may come out of this is simply the new advances in non-volatile memory technology, even if there isn't a sustainable immediate need for an 8GB CF card. I mean, seriously, how cool would it be to have an 80GB solid-state HD in a few years???
  • by pohzer ( 561713 ) * on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:45AM (#8248519)
    True.

    SanDisk brought us SanDisk Ultra, rated at 60x speed. Then they reminded us that if we really want it to keep it's memory at low temperatures (such as outdoor photography in winter) then we really need to buy SanDisk Extreme (same speed, higher temperature tolerance).

    Seems to me these hardware manufacturers are taking a clue from the software industry. The "implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose" is intended to protect consumers against such crap. But then, if you can shrink-wrap the product with all sorts of disclaimers of warranties (even implied warranties) then hey, why not? Cheating is cheating, and everybody is doing it, so it must be ok.

  • by OriginalSpaceMan ( 695146 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:47AM (#8248553)
    I'm waiting for the day that my PC doesn't have a hard drive, CDROM drive, or anything else mechanical in it. If 8GB can be put on a CF card, being about 1" x 1" x .25", when is more development going to be put into replacing my 60GB hard drive with something the same size (3.5 inch standard HDD size) that uses eprom or something similar? I don't care about smaller and smaller and smaller sizes of hardware, I care about not having to deal with the motoro of my hard drive dying in 4 or less years.
  • by i-Chaos ( 179440 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:47AM (#8248554)
    The only uses for an 8GB flash card that I can think of is digital video shoots. I'm guessing that read/write time will be about the same as current CF cards, so it's not going to be steller (not enough on an 8GB media), so you'll want to stream to it slowly. I mean, a photographer wouldn't have a reason to tote around 8GB worth of pictures, because he can always get to a terminal where he can sync pictures over an internet account. I mean, for $6000, I think he has no choice...

    And in regards to using this for video, why would you? There are DVD-based DV Cams out there that will write to 4.7GB discs that cost $1.5 each, so why bother spending 6 grand on something that can be done for $3? Plus, DVDs can be read almost anywhere these days, whereas you need to carry a special reader for CF.

    What I really want to see is an 8GB thumbdrive for CHEAP!

  • by blcamp ( 211756 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:49AM (#8248573) Homepage
    Seems to me that Seagate, WD, Maxtor et al should be paying close attention (and perhaps they are).

    With Flash getting more and more mainstream, and with the now high volumes being made available, hard drives are becoming less and less necessary for commodity products such as desktops and notebooks. The latter especially will make the switch from HDs to Flash, to lighten up the power and physical load.

    If Flash sees overall performance and shelf-life improvements rivaling HDs (more so than what it does already), HDs may well be relegated to a place in history/tech museums... right next to the analog cameras.

  • by whiteranger99x ( 235024 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:51AM (#8248587) Journal
    The first remarks i hear is "why would anyone buy a $5999 8GB memory card... ...when they could buy 2 4GB cards, 4 2GB cards, ad nauseam ...who could possibly use that much space ...That could store a lot of PORN and DVDs (mayhaps porn DVDs....im guilty here :P)"

    But I digress, lets consider other technologies that we all thought we could never afford, and consequently never use. About 10-15 years ago, wouldn't our 256MB+ RAM and 30+ GB HDs run in the thousands or even millions for that stuff then. Give it time, and it will hopefully be cheap for all ;)
  • by 59Bassman ( 749855 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:52AM (#8248603) Journal
    HDD failure can be devastating if a company isn't properly prepared. Yeah, the backup early and often mantra needs to be followed, but at least three times in the past couple of years I've been asked to help get data off of a drive that hadn't been backed up in years and failed for one reason or another. RAID isn't a solution, as the proprietary OS on the tools won't support it. I've thought before that a CF-style drive would solve a bunch of problems, if the reliability was good. Especially if the reader can emulate a HDD from the OS's perspective.
  • Re:WHAT??!?! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by tuffy ( 10202 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:54AM (#8248620) Homepage Journal
    I mean, seriously, how cool would it be to have an 80GB solid-state HD in a few years???

    That would be pretty cool (and silent!), I'll admit. But by then I'll have a hard time justifying it when I can get an 800GB+ platter-based HD for the same price.

  • by darnok ( 650458 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:55AM (#8248627)
    My current 3M pixel camera gets approx 160 pictures onto a 256Mb flash card; that's with minimal compression of the JPG files. Doing a bit of maths, that means approx 5000 pictures per 8Gb flash card - a bit much to be carrying around with me!

    Looking at an extreme case: assume a pro photographer has a 12M pixel camera, and takes only TIFF files. That would get approx 750 pictures (I think; it's pretty late here!) on a 8Gb card. That's a hell of a lot of pictures to be carrying around with you, and a lot you're risking if the card dies or your camera gets stolen. I just can't believe that someone would need that capacity; surely they'd backup to some other, more sturdy media well before they got that quantity of pictures.

    IIRC, high-quality digital video would produce data faster than these these cards can store it. DV would conceivably merit the capacity, but the media would be too slow.

    Is there any other likely reasonably widespread use for these enormous flash cards? Something I've missed?
  • by Monkey Overlord ( 746151 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:56AM (#8248642) Homepage
    This great news. People should keep in mind that 1Gb cards used to cost this much, just a few years ago ... now you can get 1Gb cards for $200 bucks or less. Considering that new cameras can output huge files, extra storage is very welcome. 8Gb is a lot of JPEGS, but only about 1000 RAW files ... which is not a lot if you are a pro and shooting an event. My only complaint is probably with the write speeds ... these cards need to get faster.
  • by HeghmoH ( 13204 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @10:59AM (#8248675) Homepage Journal
    If it really is DV-quality, then you're going to need about 20GB of storage for an hour of footage. An hour of footage is $4 of DV tape. Call me when 20GB of CF is $4, or hell, call me when 20GB of CF plus a camera is less than a decent cheap DV camera plus a tape.
  • by GerbilSocks ( 713781 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:01AM (#8248698)
    If that's the case, I think you got a bigger problem.
  • by AlecC ( 512609 ) <aleccawley@gmail.com> on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:09AM (#8248775)
    Must suck to be Apple right now though, considering they just released the mini iPods which are based on tech that is already looking rather inferior.

    Have you compared the prices? The mini-iPod is aomething like $199, this is $5,999. Disk is likely to beat silicon in $/mByte for a very long time. Where CF beats disk is access time. And streaming players don't need good access time: once they are on track, they have better performance than CF.

    In a dedicated device, this kind of capacity is going to be cheaper in disk. This wins where you need interchangeability (nobody had a good CF format hard disk drive, as far as I know), or ruggedness, or low power, or ultra-low noise. Specialist markets all.
  • Re:WHAT??!?! (Score:2, Insightful)

    by ZHaDoom ( 65485 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:10AM (#8248793) Homepage
    It may be $6000 now but in four years you'll be able to get it on ebay for $5
  • by MyHair ( 589485 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:13AM (#8248826) Journal
    Furthermore since flash has limited flash cycles that is much less than that of a hard drive, your /tmp directory will have you buying a new card in no time.

    I read somewhere that at least some flash disk devices will remap writes to evenly 'wear' the flash chip even if the writes are supposedly 'physically' in the same location. But I don't know how well that mechanism scales to 8GB or how it affects speed. I also don't know how long such a wear-managed device would last under a typical workstation or server load, but at least /tmp wouldn't burn a hole through the chip in 20 minutes.

    On the other hand, for a filesystem with few updates and many reads (some web servers and a few databases--think LDAP), this device could be neat for a low-latency but faster-than-network throughput network server. But I'll wait until the price drops a few thousand.
  • by Gordonjcp ( 186804 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:19AM (#8248886) Homepage
    Put loads of RAM in, make /tmp a RAM disk. Oh, and turn off swap.
  • by *weasel ( 174362 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:20AM (#8248906)
    the achievement here is in getting 8GB into a standard-form-factor compact flash slot, and keeping power consumption down to a reasonable amount for portable storage.

    They could easily bind 10 of these CF cards together and have roughly the same form factor as the sleekest slimline notebook drives. It'd really just be a matter of addressing if they wanted to release an 80GB solid-state drive.

    The first problem though, is the transfer rate bottleneck. CF has access times an order of magnitude lower than even the fastest disk drives (0.000256s vs 0.006s), but its transfer rate is ~25% of current consumer magnetic disk drives. (20MB/s vs 80MB/s)

    likely they could work out the transfer rate problem (and in under a year if there was a market), but then we're left with the other major problem. The relatively low write lifespan of flash memory. (between 100k and 1m writes/block)

    A system swap file would likely burn through that much faster than the consumer market would tolerate.

    The bottom line though, is that it's patented technology. Even if they released an 80 GB drive in a couple years, it wouldn't be priced for the consumer market. Not until a competing technology moves in.

    You and I will likely still be waiting for a solid state storage alternative for the next 5 years. Sad but true.
  • NOT a bad price (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jridley ( 9305 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:28AM (#8248971)
    I see a lot of people expressing surprise about the price. For the target market, these are very reasonably priced. Pro photographers are out in the field shooting with $6000 bodies, sometimes multiple ones, and $2000+ lenses, maybe several in a bag besides the ones on the bodies.

    They're not targetting people with a $1000 consumer point-n-shoot, and CF is not good for HD replacement in most cases due to low bandwidth and rewrite lifetime issues.

    Having to stop shooting to change media half as often is WELL worth it. You don't want to have to tell your editor "There was a pulitzer-prize shot, but I missed it because I had my head down changing CF cards right at that moment."
  • by blorg ( 726186 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:36AM (#8249072)
    Lots of reasons. The sort things that use 'the smaller form factor of flash cards' aren't going to appreciate the CF card (already the largest form of flash storage) growing in size by a factor of eight. You've reached near 2.5" (laptop) hard-drive style sizes already, possibly larger with the necessary controlling circuitry. Factor in the expense of implementing the RAID controller in said portable device, and I don't think you're onto a winner. GB for GB, it is hardly a Redundant Array of Inexpensive Disks either.
  • by Beryllium Sphere(tm) ( 193358 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:45AM (#8249177) Journal
    I guess if you can afford one of these you can afford a new camera with new firmware, but the current cameras are using FAT12 and FAT16, neither of which will address 8GB.

    That price point is for early adopters and professionals only, and professionals are not going to be happy about losing 8GB of photos to a corrupted file system. I hope the camera makers are planning something more robust than FAT.
  • Re:NOT a bad price (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mst76 ( 629405 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:52AM (#8249243)
    Having to stop shooting to change media half as often is WELL worth it. You don't want to have to tell your editor "There was a pulitzer-prize shot, but I missed it because I had my head down changing CF cards right at that moment."
    A 2GB card costs under $200 and stores about 300 pictures in RAW mode from a 6MP camera. If you still can't see well in time that you need to change your card, maybe you shouldn't be in the professional photo business. How many pictures fitted on a 35mm roll again?
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @11:57AM (#8249291)
    Current generation pro cameras use FAT32.

    Quote:
    EOS-1D Mark II supports a maximum capacity of 2,048GB for CF as well as SD media.

    --------------------
    Chuck Westfall
    Director/Technical Information Dept.
    Camera Division/Canon U.S.A., Inc. /quote

    That's 2 terabytes, but this is Slashdot, I don't need to point that out.

  • by beeblebrox87 ( 234597 ) <slashdot.alexander@co@tz> on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @12:16PM (#8249474)
    Aside from USB booting being available in every modern BIOS, as a plethora of other posts have stated...

    The next step is to move all device driver software from the operating system to a dedicated flash ROM embeded on the motherboard.

    There are so many problems with this that it's silly. Most operating system kernels (including Linux and Windows) require drivers to be recompiled whenever the kernel is updated. Thus, you would have to make sure that the kernel on your USB drive is the same as the one that installed its drivers into the flashROM. Even if you could get around that problem, this sort of solution is just asking for DRM. Once drivers are no longer under the control of the operating system, one loses a LOT of the freedom that Linux and other such systems provide.

    Much better solutions would be:
    A) Standardize hardware interfaces. This is already done with IDE, as well as OHCI/UHCI USB and others. One IDE driver will work with all existing IDE hardware. Theres no reason we coudn't apply the same thing to network cards, sound cards, or whatever else you might need. In fact, hardware is already so standardized that most Linux distributions can ship a single disk with drivers supporting every piece of hardware found in most systems.
    B) Get bigger USB keydrives, and put more drivers on them. Such drives are already available with 1GB capacity, which is far more than you would need to store every single available Linux kernel module.
  • by toastee ( 132341 ) <.moc.liamg. .ta. .retsaotlatigid.> on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @12:28PM (#8249595)
    While that's true, it takes about 2 weeks of swapfile use on a CF card to burn it out.
    A friend of mine made that mistake after installing ZipSlack on a 128mb CF card (in a CF->IDE adapter)
    I think he was using it on a 32mb machine... so 2 weeks of heavy swapping... that's a LOT of reads & writes.
  • CF video (Score:2, Insightful)

    by andygrace ( 564210 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @12:44PM (#8249749)
    OK lots of posts questioning applications for that much flash. Video is definitely the big one. Standard DV is 25Mbps, but this amount of flash comes into its own for Pro formats - higher quality DVCPRO50 at 50Mbps is still OK at that sort of read/write speed.

    Panasonic's DVCPRO P2 Flash based camcorder and playback decks are set to be launched at NAB in Vegas in April. (pro broadcasting show) It's based on four SDCards working in parallel.

    The advantage of flash? You dont need to dump footage off DV tape before editing it. You can even edit in the camera. In a news environment those extra minutes can mean the difference between getting the story on the air or not.
  • Re:WHAT??!?! (Score:3, Insightful)

    by svirre ( 39068 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @01:11PM (#8250001)
    "The top line Nikon has a buffer that lets you take up to 144 pics in a row by holding down the shutter button."

    You are thinking of the D70. While it is able to write fast enough to keep taking pictures in normal JPEG 3 pictures pr. second without filling the buffer, it does not have room for 144 pictures in the buffer.

    Nor is the D70 the top of the line Nikon. That honor goes to the D1x or D2h depending on what you want. Those have buffers in the 40 picture range. (Depending on the resolution). With 8 pictures pr. second for the D2h, this might be useful. (The D2h can alo be equipped with a 802.11b card and set to upload pictures via FTP as they are taken)

    As for using huge CF cards. I would think that most photographers would not like to put quite that many eggs in one basket. Those who require extreme capacity can also go for a X-drive or a laptop.

    Then again. For sports events, as you say, there may be some purpose to this. With pro-level optics for this purpose (Super teles and Super tele zooms) costing in the $1000-$5000 range the sticker shock might be slightly less.
  • by dasmegabyte ( 267018 ) <das@OHNOWHATSTHISdasmegabyte.org> on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @02:18PM (#8250941) Homepage Journal
    I don't know. What you're talking about seems remarkably similar to the Linux install on my iPod. Which, BTW, only cost $538.96, has greater reliability, a faster overall transfer rate and 5 times the storage of the CF card.

    God, it never seemed like such a good deal before.
  • by peter303 ( 12292 ) on Wednesday February 11, 2004 @02:50PM (#8251344)
    This would increase memory 32 times. Then memory would last 256 days instead of 16. (The first rover went into an infinite re-boot loop when its file system claimed flash memory was full. Probably some garbage collection bug.) (Rover memory is radiation hardened.)
  • by SocietyoftheFist ( 316444 ) on Thursday February 12, 2004 @02:34AM (#8255938)
    Yeah, we all will have local access to all the data we could ever want. Bandwidth, like storage capacity, is increasing. Your logic is rather flawed, it assumes a static knowledge base and that you'd have already attained all the knowledge you need.

Solutions are obvious if one only has the optical power to observe them over the horizon. -- K.A. Arsdall

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