Hams Complain about Powerline Broadband 597
dwm writes "Think
broadband over power lines (BPL) would be wonderful? There might be some collateral damage. The American Radio Relay League (your friendly neighborhood ham radio operators) have documented dramatic HF radio interference in areas where BPL is being tested (Check out the video of actual interference)."
Yes, post a "video" link in the story!!! (Score:3, Funny)
That is one of the best ways to slashdot a site!! haha Very good technique grasshopper, but you are no match for my slashdot skill!!!
Ham radio users (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Insightful)
Is broadband pr0n a necessity ? Don't answer that
Ham radio may just be a hobby, but it is an important one. We provide emergency communications when celular, telco, and power are dead. It promotes international goodwill. It allows many people to learn RF engineering and become great engineers. For the nerds, you can play with high power RF, pass data, send video, bounce signals off the moon, use sattelites, and much more....
Re:Ham radio users (Score:4, Funny)
Well it did take the wind out of her "I'm withholding sex from you" threats. Come to think of it, it might have caused some of those too...
Re:Ham radio users (Score:3, Funny)
You are a voice from the past. For the US Government to increase the effectiveness of the DMCA, they must have full control over c
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Informative)
As a strike team leader for a mountain search and rescue team, I'll tell you that without HAM radio, our job would be just plain impossible in many situations. There simply is no other option currently in existence. HAM radio is not only a hobby, but in my line of work it's a critical life-support resource, more so than any other technology we use (except maybe a flashlight). Tell the thousands of people whose lives have been saved through S&R or any of the other emergency situations that depend on HAM capabilities that it's not really a necessity.
KD5SMV
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Informative)
I have to second this. On a class camping trip a few years back we were at a hike-in campground along the coast in a remote part of California (yes, there are still some remote parts of California). One morning while boiling water for some coffee one of the guys on the trip accidentally overturned the pot, drenching himself with boiling water. Needles to say, he received some extremely bad burns from this. We were out of cell range, no phones within 15-20 miles, and no vehicles with us. The scope of the burns was way beyond anything we could treat with the first aid equipment we had on hand. Fortunately, one of the people on the trip was an amateur HAM radio operator and had brought his portable equipment along. Unable to contact anyone nearby, he was able to contact an operator in Hawaii, who then called the police and rescue people in our vicinity, who were then able to send a truck to pick him up in just over an hour. The HAM radio probably saved this guy's life - though yes, if we had had a satellite phone along it might have done the trick (but then it might not have - after using GPS, which tends to be extremely fickle in wooded areas, I'm not at all certain that it would have worked anyway). HAM provides a long-range method of communications that we really don't have a higher-tech replacement for at this point.
Re:Ham radio users (Score:3, Insightful)
You may want to educate yourself before calling bullsh*t on someone elses post. He said nothing about a ham license requirement for every member of a S&R team. Only that some of what they have to do would be almost impossible without ham assistance.
Also, if you are equa
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait until there is a natural (or man made) disaster in your area and comunications are knocked out. No phone, internet, or power. Ham radio can be the only way to communicate out of an area. Modern communications are great, but there are times when good old ham radio is needed, and is the only way to communicate. So, yes, it is just a hobby -- at least until that tornado, earthquake, hurricane, etc. comes...
DE WB3IZT
Re:Ham radio users (Score:3, Informative)
In fact, the problems with the ice were so bad that none of the localities around had comms either. All their fancy trunked systems failed because of towers coming down, repeaters losing power and running their backups down, etc etc.
The local ARES group
Why would they still be around? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Insightful)
The importance of ham radio becomes apparent during wartime and other emergency situations. Battery, antenna, and radio and you're "online". There are too many things (and people) that can happen to the average person's IP connectivity.
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Funny)
It's true. When the war started, that's how John Connor was able to make contact with the resistance fighters.
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words, take some more ground from the commons and give it to big business. No thanks.
And even if I did agree with you on that point, this case would still be different. It's a wired service. The RF bandwidth is being wasted because it's just a lousy way to send data. If they set their minds to it, they could probably come up with an economical way to string some fiber over the towers they already own. Power lines have some serious but unavoidable drawbacks as it is. Why add more problems?
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2, Funny)
Actually, you got it backwards. It's ham over tcp/ip and I get it all the time in my inbox, usually in the form of a viagra or other penis-enhancing spam.
Re:Ham radio users - ampr.org (Score:4, Interesting)
Of course, it is largely isolated from the main Internet, since there are a lot of restrictions as to what can be done with Amateur Radio (no commercial use, no swearing, etc.) as opposed to the Internet at large.
Re:Ham radio users - ampr.org (Score:2)
Re:Ham radio users - ampr.org (Score:5, Informative)
Packet radio is extremely routable. TCP/IP is one way we do it, but actually is not the most common method.
As another poster pointed out, amateur radio operators mainly use AX.25. Both TCP/IP and AX.25 are X.25 derivatines. AX.25 identifiers are Amateur Radio callsigns with numeric suffixes (such as "N0CALL-10"). AX.25 routing is done by broadcasting while gradually incrementing your TTL until someone hears them for you (if they aren't your immediate neighbor), or manually entered information (either as a route table or "Connect to SOME1 via SOME2, SOME3, SOME4").
There are also a few other ways (such as NETROM and ROSE) amateur radio operators can route information digitally. While it would be a stretch, NETROM could be considered our equivalent of BGP router advertising and periodic route annoucements. ROSE is a polled system similar to Token Ring.
We also have our share of propritary speedup techniques (such as KA-NODE from Kantronics [kantronics.com]) and experiemental protocols [opentrac.org] as well.
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2, Insightful)
Other than it beinng completely free and open for anyone to use regardless of how much money they have? Ham radio is the one communications medium where everyone is on equal footing. Well, except for those old farking hams with their advanced licenses who think they are farking god because they can do morse code and you're stuck with a god dam
You called? Advanced Class, Right here :-) (Score:4, Insightful)
If you follow that link, you'll see I earned my advanced class in 1993; I received my first license in ~1991. But I'm not an old fark, I was homeschooled & did this for part of my curriculum. I'm only 23
I'll make another post in a few minutes that won't be a brag thread. It's actually sorta sad to see Ham radio fading out. You can do everything and more on the internet than you can on amateur radio. Of course, if we had wide-scale power outages & the sun was spewing crud at our atmosphere, morse code could potentially be the only way to quickly send information to other countries. Due to the nature of morse code, it can be deciphered even with a very low S/N ratio.
Anyway, I'll make a more intelligent post soon:
Re:You called? Advanced Class, Right here :-) (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Interesting)
Ever go camping and think..
"I'll bring my cell phone and if an emergency happens, I can call for help."
Well welcome to the world of "modern technology". Cell phones are great. I admit it. My mother can find me pratically any place, anywhere. Car breaks down in the middle of the highway, I can call AAA for a tow truck. Etc.
However, cell phones magically don't work when there is no network.
So if you went camping in the mountains, or your on a remote strip of road and there is no cell network, GOOD LUCK!
A ham radio, not being network dependent, you can put out a call for help (and hope that someone is listening on the other end.) Atleast with a HAM, your chances of finding help infinately higher.
Now what else can ham radios do?
-Ham radios have great range. using something like 0.5 watts of power, I can talk to a friend a mile away. (go to same high school) Using 5 watts of power (typical for a hand heald), I can talk to someone else 10-15 miles away without trouble.
Also, I can drive around in a car, talk to someone when I'm driving to and from work without running a fatty cell phone bill.
So yes. I, being a HAM op, have moved to something more modern (cell phone), however, I still prefer to use the ham in the car (saves cell phone mins).
HOpe this post helps.
-Grump.
Re:Ham radio users (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd probably agree with you if they were just screaming about it. But they have *proof*.
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Informative)
Yes. It is a distributed network of independent nodes, most of which have generators and battery backups, whose primary reason for existing is for emergency communications. In case of massive disruption of power and other transmissions ... they can keep broadcasting. It's low-tech, cheap, and easy. Can even be mobile. And in the intervals between emergencies, you can chat.
After the big Mexico City earthquake, all the microwave towers had to be realigned, the phones were out until lines and power to switching equipment could be restored, and none of the TV stations could reach their satellites - one TV building collapsed. For the critical first few hours, the hams in Mexico City (civilian, military and diplomatic nodes) were the sole source of contact between the city and the rest of the world ... much of it through New Zealand hams who then relayed the information to North America because of an odd bounce in the transmissions.
After things settled down a bit, I spent hours at a local tech college's ham setup with other bilingual persons, recieving and transcribing "we're OK" messages, while other students relayed the messages to the closest ham station they could reach that might be able to get the message through. On the Mexican end, mobile ham units were relaying messages, neighborhood by neighborhood. (most of those neighborhoods don't have running water, let alone cable for boradband).
Re:Ham radio users (Score:3, Insightful)
In emergency conditions, directing your transmissions with makeshift antennas can leave you with only one or two
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2, Insightful)
Ham Radio does not get spammed, does not receive DDOS attacks, was instrumental in coordinating rescue volunteers at the World Trade Center after 9/11, is Internet-compatible (google for IRLP), doesn't have to cost a penny after you buy your radio, and Ham operators are not being sued by SCO o
Actually... (Score:2)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Informative)
But I'll bite. Recently here in NE Ohio, we were hit by some pretty bad storms that caused some pretty destructive flash flooding. Hams reporting weather conditions and flood reports over the SKYWARN system were able to get realtime info to both the national weather service and to the local Red Cross branch so that they could get shelters set up in trouble areas before they were needed. In particular, an apartment complex had two of their buildings cut off when the little 12" stream that ran in front of their building rose to 12 feet. This also knocked out power to that area, so we had roughly 100+ people isolated (the only way out was a good 40 min hike though some rough terrain even if it hadn't been pouring down rain for 8 hours already) on the other side of a now major river. Two ham's (sorry guys, forget your calls) hopped in a 4WD vehicle and went there and did an onsite assesment even before the already overtaxed police showed up on site. That is what ham radio is really set up for. The band allocation that we get to play with is meant for emergency communications. Sure, we use it for rag chews mostly, but when the crap hits the fan, I'm glad I have a 2M HT that can get me communications when I need it. The major trouble with the BPL thing is that it already creates interference on the bands, and they lobbiests want to increase the wattage they push, which will worsen the situation exponentially.
And besides, what good will a cell phone do if your towers go down like they did when the WTC fell? Ham radio had comms flowing in and out of ground zero in under 3 hours then.
Ham radio still fills a very vital role in todays world when a disaster strikes.
73 KC8SNS
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2)
Why should they have to "move over to something a little more modern"? Is broadband over power lines so critical a need that the Hammers have to lose their hobbies and see their thousands of dollars of radio equipment turned into doorstops and paperweights?
There are existing ways of getting broadband to almost anyone, from cable to DSL to satellite access. The few places that are too remote for any of this may benefit from broadband over power lines, since population density would be low enough that the
Re:Ham radio users (Score:2)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Informative)
To suggest that ham radio hasn't evolved is completely ignorant. Modern ham radios sport LCDs, top-quality DSP filters to pull out signals you might not otherwise here, advanced speech compression, etc. Modern repeaters are Internet-linked; a local repeater might be linked with one in a foreign country over the Internet. It's hardly the radio Marconi knew.
Futhermore, hams are constantly coming up with new ideas. 'Back in the day,' it was a ham who invented cordless phones. (Which eventually evolved into cell phones.) Hams are constantly innovating; while some hams love nothing more than Morse code on an 'antique' radio, quite a few are also pioneering new technologies -- PSK31, for example, a remarkable digital technology usable on the HF (worldwide) bands, that uses very little bandwidth and is able to work well even with heavy interference.
Yet another factor you overlook is the role hams play in emergency communications. A TON of hams are actively involved in emergency communications. I'm hundreds of miles from New York City; on September 12th, 2001, several local hams flew out to NYC to help with emergency communications. In a testament to how many hams help, they were turned away due to the fact that they already had too many volunteers providing emergency communications.
I have a cell phone and a high-speed Internet connection. But what happens when there's an Earthquake, and the local phone lines (which the cell towers are connected to) and Internet lines are taken down? Hams have a history -- that lives on -- of providing emergency communications.
Re:Ham radio users (Score:5, Insightful)
Why don't they move over to something more modern? Do they have to? Maybe because of the challenge of making a contact over hundreds of miles using very low watt transcievers, or experimenting with Earth-Moon-Earth communications, or slow-scan TV. Just because they can pick up a phone and call someone the same distance away isn't the point. I can easily install windoze on a computer and make it work, but that doesn't mean I have to. I prefer a challenge, which is why I started playing with Linux and use it on most of my computers. How many of you installed Linux the first time, just for the challenge? Maybe it wasn't the easiest system to use, and people might say, "why don't you just use windoze?" I'm just trying to make the slashdot audience understand where hams are coming from, although the analogy may be bad.
I'm torn about the BPL issue, though. I applied for and got my first ham license 2 months ago, and I got my first "rig" a couple weeks ago. I'm excited to start a new hobby, and I'm studying to upgrade to a General class license. On the other hand, BPL would allow my parents to have broadband. They live 3 miles from a small town, and currently use Wi-Fi which sometimes works. I'd like to see more people get broadband, but does it have to be at the cost of losing a hobby that's been around for 100 years?
~jason
KC0QHQ
sounds like a fair trade to me! (Score:3, Funny)
Article (Score:3, Informative)
NEWINGTON, CT, Aug 6, 2003--ARRL President Jim Haynie, W5JBP, says Broadband over Power Line (BPL)--if widely deployed--would represent "spectrum pollution" on a level that is "difficult to imagine." Haynie reacted after seeing videotape and early data from recent ARRL field studies in four states where BPL is undergoing testing.
"BPL is the most crucial issue facing Amateur Radio and the one that has the most devastating potential," Haynie said. In terms of interference potential on HF and low-VHF frequencies, "nothing is on the same scale as BPL."
A form of power line carrier (PLC) technology, BPL would use existing low and medium-voltage power lines to deliver broadband services to homes and businesses. Because it uses frequencies between 2 and 80 MHz, BPL could affect HF and low-VHF amateur allocations wherever it's deployed. BPL proponents--primarily electric power utilities--already are testing BPL systems in several markets, and one reportedly is already offering the service. FCC rules already allow BPL, although industry proponents want the FCC to relax radiation limits. It's feared such a change could exacerbate BPL's interference potential.
At the West Gulf Division Convention (Austin Summerfest 2003) August 1-2 in Austin, Texas, Haynie previewed a short video (see below) that covers highlights of a recent field tour by ARRL Lab Manager Ed Hare, W1RFI. The video, which will complement technical data ARRL is gathering and compiling, turned out to be a real eye-opener for many in the audience.
Walt Dubose, K5YFW--assistant chairman of the ARRL High Speed Multimedia (HSMM) Working Group--said it was about what he'd expected. "But for most attending--maybe 60 percent--it was much worse than they had imagined, and for some it was a real shocker," he reported. Dubose said a few of those viewing the video simply couldn't believe that BPL actually was causing the high noise level.
In late July, Hare traveled some 1350 miles to visit BPL trial communities in Maryland, Virginia, Pennsylvania and New York to take measurements over significant parts of the HF spectrum. He also took initial readings at low-VHF frequencies. Driving a specially equipped vehicle loaded with radio gear and measurement devices, Hare said he didn't need to look long or track down "a few hot spots" to find BPL interference. "The signals were all over," he said.
"The interference found ranged from moderate to extremely strong," Hare said. The video shows the S meter of an HF transceiver holding steady in excess of S9 as the speaker emits a crackling din, which one observer described as sounding like a Geiger counter. Only the very strongest amateur signals broke through on 20 and 15 meters. Hare noted that the field strengths of the various systems all were within FCC Part 15 limits for power line carrier (PLC) devices.
At a couple of points, the video shows noise continuing nearly unabated on 15 and 20 meters as the car moves down long streets lined with overhead wiring. Hare said the signal propagated for at least a couple of miles down one road.
"Signals would have been much stronger using a gain antenna," he observed. Hare's vehicle carried a roof-mounted, horizontally polarized Buddi-Pole antenna--a loaded dipole.
Each BPL system exhibited a unique sound depending upon the modulation scheme it used, and Hare said he was able to distinguish three types during his recent tour. While in most cases, the signal sounded like static or pulse noise, in one city, it resembled sort of interference a computer monitor or similar device might generate, with warbling "birdies" blanketing the bands at closely spaced intervals. "Naturally, overhead wiring was the worst," Hare said. BPL signals continued to be audible in neighborhoods with underground electrical utility wiring, although it was somewhat attenuated.
The ARRL already has filed a 120-page package of text and technical exhibits
Mirror of video (Score:3, Informative)
I'm grabbing a copy here [umtstrial.co.uk]
Re:Mirror of video (Score:2)
Ok, having watched the video and listen to the audio, the interference sounds like a bunch of clicks... does this corresponde to the data transfer occuring over the powerlines being a type of packet-burst communication?
Re:Mirror of video (Score:4, Informative)
The noise is a broadband hash of signals that cover tens of Mhz.
Here is a thread on qrz what has some answers by the guy that made the video, W1RFI. [qrz.com]
Sound file of interference (Score:2)
Harmful interference (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Harmful interference (Score:2)
I'm not a radio geek, or lawyer, but, doesn't every device that has an FCC label on it basically say that you have to accept any interference that occurs? Therefore, if it bothered the 802.11 spectrum, we'd be irritated about it, and probably contact someone to get it changed. But, until things changed, we'd have to deal with it, either by filtering the noise, changing frequencies, etc.
This is the same thing that the HAM operators need to do. Eventually, they'll move things to the point that someone doesn'
Re:Harmful interference (Score:5, Informative)
Your 802.11 device has to accept interference, part 97 (Ham radio) or any other licensed service does not
Re:Harmful interference (Score:2)
Only if it is some kind of Part 15 device. The other requirement of unlicensed Part 15 devices is that they NOT cause harmful interference. The FCC wants to change that rule. Just wait until the military finds out they have no HF comms because the base in located in a town with BPL. Yep, S9 noise over the WHOLE HF spectrum. It will destroy a natural re
Re:Harmful interference (Score:5, Informative)
You can't filter this stuff. It's absolutely rock-crushing interference. The problem is that the overhead electrical wiring is a really efficient antenna.
The other thing is, that Amateur Radio is a licensed service, which give it certain privileges, one of those being that you aren't allowed to interfere with it. You're thinking of unlicensed devices, like wireless phones, that aren't protected this way.
Yet another thing: BPL radiates over a HUGE bandwidth. The BPL companies want to use 2 to 80 MHz. That would wipe out the entire HF band, which hams and others use to communicate long distance. It also includes 6 meter VHF (50-54 MHz). In contrast the entire HF allocation to hams is 3.36 Mhz total. Include 6m, and it's 7.36. BPL is an enormous bandwidth hog.
This implementation of BPL would be disastrous for ham radio and anyone else using HF frequencies, like shortwave broadcasters, coast guard, government, marine, and so on.
The idea that they could obliterate 78 MHz of spectrum should be of concern to everyone, not just hams.
Either way, the ball is in the court of the HAM operators. Get together and start writing letters, making phone calls, etc.
We are. BTW, ham is not an acronym.
Re:Harmful interference (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, the ball is in the opposite court. The FCC already has said that the Amateurs have the right to use their frequencies. The broadband powerline companies have to prove that they can safely do the same without disturbing other occupants.
What is going on IIRC is that Amateur Radio operators presently have licensed permission to operate using certain modes on certain frequencies. The power companies could do power over broadband without getting licensed, but they would have to do so at lower power (less distance) and as a unlicensed operation (i.e. if any licensed operator complained, they would have to fix their problem or cease operations).
What the power companies are trying to do is also get licensed permission, possibly on a higher basis of license than the Amateur Radio operators do. If they get a higher priority of license than the Amateur Radio operators, the Amateur Radio operators have to eat whatever the power lines put out.
The problem is that the power distribution system presently uses unshielded cables which radiate noise everywhere. Drive around town listening to the AM band if you don't believe me. In extreme cases and with certain devices (like transformers), the power company has to be called out to fix their interfering noise. This could be seen as an excuse to avoid doing so.
(I also seem to recall that DOCSIS cable modems skipped the ham bands to avoid interference going either way, but I do not recall which IEEE magazine and issue I have that states this; sorry.)
Re:Harmful interference (Score:2)
Re:Harmful interference (Score:5, Informative)
All the communications that planes use all the way across the ocean is shortwave. Aeronautical mobile service. But this is only a few thousand people a day, no big deal, let 'em miss the airport?
Maybe next time your fishing boat is out in the atlantic and you need to call the coast guard. Maritime mobile service. Wow, this might only be a dozen people a year, let 'em drown.
Your "proportion to number of users effected" argument doesn't look so good now does it?
Every time there's an earthquake or a hurricane in the western hemisphere, I get a little email from the FCC via the ARRL telling me I can't use a specific set of frequencies because they're being used for emergency health and welfare traffic. Usually this is the non-urgent stuff, like "yeah, mom, me and the kids got through the earthquake OK". But that's only a few thousand folks a year. Let mom worry.
These are things that happen. Real people who use those frequencies in ways that make their lives better. And you are advocating interfering with all of that so you can get Internet access into your house faster and cheaper. Your "nature of use" argument begins to wear here. Seriously, given the choice between more effective air-sea rescue and cheaper porn, you're choosing the porn. Unfortunately, I think the FCC's on your side. I don't think Congress is though, they've already overruled that dickmaster once.
Admittedly, this is low power interference, but on those frequencies, it doesn't take much to send signals globally. Seriously, you can send signals with fractions of a watt in the right conditions and get good readable copy on the other side of the world. This interference level would pretty much devastate those frequencies worldwide.
Re:Harmful interference (Score:2)
Re:Harmful interference (Score:2)
There is a legitimate case to be made for DRM backed by law. The DeCSS example is more complex than that, I think it would be an error to assert it is analgous to the spectrum example.
Re:Harmful interference (Score:2)
Re:Harmful interference (Score:5, Insightful)
Why should they feel different about the window of the electromagnetic spectrum you are legally entitled to use?
Re:Harmful interference (Score:5, Insightful)
There's no such thing as intellectual property. There's copyright law, trademark law, and patent law, but "IP" is an empty concept.
Re:Harmful interference (Score:5, Informative)
That said, RFI problems like you described are usually NOT the fault of Amateur Radio operators. More specifically:
1. Many times the source of interference is someone operating illegally. Illegal CB operation (I.E. big huge amplifiers - which are against FCC rules, etc. etc.) is probably the biggest cause. Believe me, most Ham radio operators would love to take these people out back and teach them about respect for the rules.
2. Even if the source of the interference is an Amateur radio operator, many times the problem is tracked down to a low-quality piece of consumer equipment at the person being interfered with's end. As long as the Ham radio operator is operating within the rules, the owner of the equipment is responsible to fix the issue - as it is their equipment with the technical problem.
3. If it is in fact the amateur radio operator's problem, it is their duty to fix it. The FCC can and does pull licenses for this type of stuff.
If you are having problems along this line, contact your local Ham Radio Club a call. In most cases, they have a vested interest in finding the source of the problem and helping fix it. You can see clubs in your area by going to The club search page on the ARRL site [arrl.org].
Remember that Ham radio operators provide a valuable service when the crap hits the fan [arrl.org]. Most Amateur radio operators are actually skilled in what they do and take great pains to insure they don't cause unwanted interference, as interference only hurts the Ham radio community.
Movie Mirror (Score:2, Informative)
The area of concern (Score:2, Interesting)
Slashdot sponsoring BitTorrent link? (Score:3, Interesting)
Thoughts?
Re:Slashdot sponsoring BitTorrent link? (Score:2)
That would require the Slashdot editors to do more work, and that isn't going to happen. Beg the submittors, but most of them don't care unless it's their site anyway.
Re:Slashdot sponsoring BitTorrent link? (Score:2)
Well, it would be possible. However, it would cost VA, Taco, and crew the bandwidth, which they already bitch about spending on people who don't subscribe. So, in conclusion, no Slashdot will not host a bittorrent tracker, or files to prevent slashdotting.
Wrong icon... (Score:2)
Harmful interference? (Score:2, Interesting)
That said, BPL does seem like a promising technology. This way, the electrical utlity can also sell internet, allowing the consumer to benefit from market competition.
For me, I see HAM radio's biggest benefit to society being when disasters strike and nothing works (phone, cell phone, etc) HAM ops are able to get communication going and assist emergency response efforts
Re:Harmful interference? (Score:2)
So yes, there's still a pretty good chance of interference if these claims are substantiated.
Harmful interference is only part of the problem (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't want to sound troll. But this thing (ethernet over power lines) has been freaking out ham radio operators all over the world for quite some time. Look for example here [eham.net] [eham.net]. And based on the law "if the shit can happen it certainly will" this will bring EMI problems to all equipment that is connected to or in the vicinty of the jack in the wall. Your TVs your stereos your computers etc.
Besides have anybody of had to deal with power companies? Do you really want THEM to provide your int
One can only dread (Score:2)
I am sure it will bring a new meaning to the flying toasters...
Re:One can only dread (Score:2)
I am sure it will bring a new meaning to the flying toasters...
You can tell when this happens when you pull your toast out of the toaster in the morning and you see:burnt into the bread.
Hams Complain? (Score:2)
Horse drawn buggies. (Score:2)
-Peter
BPL is a dead end (Score:4, Insightful)
Yes, broadband over powerlines has proven to be a technological dead end. It's been tested over here for several years, and it's just not worth it compared to already installed adsl or cable.
The power companies is doing one thing right though, with every new long span high voltage line they're laying, they're twirling fiber with the lines. That's the future. A fiber channel into each and every home.
That's a shame (Score:2)
International Treaties (Score:4, Interesting)
Slashdot only has part of the story (Score:4, Informative)
Just as a few examples: Aeronautical HF, [optushome.com.au] NOAA RadioFAX [noaa.gov] over HF, NOAA storm warnings [noaa.gov] broadcast by SITOR [scancat.com] over HF, Federal and Marine HF frequencies [grove-ent.com]... The list goes on forever.
So, it really isn't just hams that are going to be suffering. It's EVERYONE that uses the HF spectrum, including the U.S. Government!
How long do you think said government is going to let BPL exist in its current form once critical military or Justice Department installations start noticing the very same interference that'll be driving us hams nuts?
BPL is a Technological Train Wreck (Score:5, Insightful)
Anyone with the slightest electical engineering knowledge knows that a signal of such high frequencies will be radiated and antenuated nearly immediately. The power lines are just awful transmission media for these frequencies. What is needed for the power cables is shielding -- that's what's known as coaxial cable. ( Why don't they pass data on cable ?
This is analogous to the water company trying to deliver water with perforated pipes. The water just spills out everywhere and every couple hundred feet they would have to pump in more water so that you had sufficient water pressure at your house.
BPL was rejected in Japan and Europe, becuase it polluted the spectrum so bad it was pathetic.
For those dumping on ham radio as being obsolete or feel broadband is more important, consider that this will interfere with many other services including international ship distress frequencies, government (including military) allocations, shortwave broadcasts, and most likely aviation and public safety frequencies. Is your ability to get high speed pr0n more important than all this ?
Why is everyone else (like the FCC and utility companies) saying this is great ? The FCC is pro-big business and pro-utility. Equipment vendors are retreading the same technology that was rejected overseas and not informing their clients, the power companies, of the true interference potential. The power companies are dying to get into the broadband race as the telcos have their heads up their butts with DSL.
We need broadband, but this is not the solution. We need to remove the barriers for DSL and cable. Power companies could leapfrog the telcos and cable companies with fiber into the home or unlicensed wireless from their poles.
Quite simply, BPL is DOA.
Re:BPL is a Technological Train Wreck (Score:3, Funny)
yes.
Well, Duh. (Score:3, Insightful)
It's one thing to run fiber to the curb, and use a low-power signal to the home - that might be workable. It's basically what the hybrid fiber coax cable systems do, but their wire is shielded too.
If the equipment is generating this much RF interference, I don't see how the equipment could be certified for deployment. If it is certified, I'd be interested to know what agency put their mark on it.
Disappointed (Score:5, Insightful)
First, BPL is proven to cause interference to more than just amateur radio. Amateur radio operators are one of the few groups that has the skills and capabilities to prove the problem exists before a major mistake is made in deploying BPL.
Second, I have seen a number of anecdotes indicating that "ham" radio operators are jerks and, therefore, apparently should not have any rights. Obviously, in any group, a small minority of the members may be jerks. However, "hams" are by far one of the kindest, most intelligent, and thoughtful groups that I know. It is not fair for me to minimize the "jerk" problem, but I cannot see a link between being a jerk and having rights taken away. Get to know some real amateur radio operators and you will see a dedicated, service-oriented, and technologically cutting edge group.
Third, amateur radio operators are licensed by the FCC. The licensing requires extensive testing and is conducted very professionally (locate a local VEC session and you will see what I mean about professionalism). The tests are rigorous, especially for the higher classes, and require the applicant to be seriously interested in radio and technical communications.
Amateur radio operators are not a bunch of people with "CBs" sitting around making life difficult for others.
Forth, amateur radio operators are largely responsible for many of the "Internet crowd" technologies. Wireless Internet (I was doing that in 1990), satellite tv, "cell" phones, etc. were all largely based on amateur radio technologies. Amateur radio is really a cutting edge scientific and technical discipline.
Fifth, and probably most important, BPL may sound like an excellent idea; but the telecom industry promised broadband access via standard telephone and digital line technologies to most people in the US by 2006 as part of the mega merger process in the 1980s and 1990s. In exchange for creating mega-monopolies, the telcos promised to provide broadband services. The telcos, however, have heavily lobbied Congress and state governments to conveniently "forget" this little deal because it is now "too expensive." If the telcos would be held to their agreements, poor technologies like BPL would not be needed. Think about it: do you really want your Internet connections from a high voltage/amperage power line? Contact your Congressperson and state representatives and ask why the telcos have not lived up to the commitments.
I guess I am just disappointed that a number of
Sorry to get on my soap box.
Not just hams would be effected (Score:5, Informative)
There's a link there for the PDF of the spectrum allocation. Pretty much "DC to Daylight". The piece that BPL is going to destroy covers a lot of Ham allocations. But it also covers things like:
Maritime Mobile
Aeronautical Mobile
Space Research
Standard Time Signals
Shortwave Broadcast
Radio Astronomy
Land Mobile
Fixed-station
The amateur service is a very small part of the spectrum below 30 Mhz. A lot of it is used for things like trans-oceanic flights, military and civilian mobile services, and the like.
I'm of two minds whether this will pass or not. Michael Powell, the FCC chair, hasn't made a good decision since he got into office, so I'm thinking this will go through because he's got the power companies all giving him blow jobs under the table. On the other hand, the FAA, NTIA, the military, and the shortwave broadcasters may get through to the FCC that they can't allow this, and maybe somebody will get that lamebrain Powell to do something right.
There is more in the affected bandwidth than hams (Score:3, Interesting)
There is worldwide shortwave broadcast, citizen's band, government and land-mobile radio, too, including police and fire dispatch (although a lot of that has moved up to VHF higher, there is still a lot on "low band"), cordless telephones and baby monitors, television channels 2-6, etc.
So it's not just hams that will lose out if this technology is deployed. Shortwave listeners, public safety communications, other land mobile (there are a lot of utilities using these frequencies) and pepole receiving television off antennas will all find their communcations disrupted.
Not to mention the technical problems of distributing RF over a very-low-frequency network.
This is a bad idea, poorly implemented. Like a nuclear powered airplane with an air-shielded reactor. An idea who's time will never come.
Re:Seems Fair to me... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Seems Fair to me... (Score:2)
Re:Right ON! (Score:2, Insightful)
I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds bouncing radio waves off the atmosphere a ton more interesting and impressive than sending some packets over the internet.
I'm only into shortwave, I'm not a ham, but I can pick them up.
Picking up someone in Ecuador for example is a LOT cooler than getting an email from someone in Ecuador.
The RFID tags are being increased in power as well, which will interfere with amateur radio too possibly. Not sure on the techie details as I'm relatively new to this.
Re:Right ON! (Score:2)
Re:Right ON! (Score:2)
Like all the hams that have repeatedly offered emergency communications when phone networks have gone down? Give me a break.
It isn't like this is just affecting ham radio. All the shortwave broadcasters, military, government, and commerical users of HF will be affected. We hams use about 3.4 Mhz of HF spectrum. BPL would render unusable 78 MHz of bandwidth.
Re:Right ON! (Score:2)
How exactly is one 'sacrificing modern and accessible communication' by saying "too much interference"? Let's point out a few problems with your comment:
- The existence of broadband internet over powerlilnes is not the issue, it is simply the interference. This is an engineering problem, not a "no you can't have this" problem. Therefore, there is no sacrifice.
- If it interferes wi
Re:Right ON! (Score:3, Insightful)
Most emergency services are moving to the UHF frequencies AFAIK. In fact, most if not all in the NYC area are already, and I'm sure most other large urban areas have already switched. They're also using FM, which eliminates most interference.
Will the FCC care? Probably not. As long as everyone can get EyeWitless News and Clearchan
Re:Right ON! (Score:5, Insightful)
HF ("short wave") communications certainly lacks the strategic and commercial importance it once had. It's always been a relatively-noisy, unreliable, and bandwidth-constrained way to communicate, and nowadays, HF is used primarily as a backup for satellite and long-haul microwave circuits. We could live without if we had to.
If, by sacrificing the entire HF radio spectrum, we could actually wire every home in the USA for economical broadband Internet access, I honestly wouldn't oppose it. Amateur Radio operators and commercial/military/governmental HF operators alike should realize the truth: we can't shy away from the technological, economic, and social potential of universal broadband Internet connectivity because of the lamentations of a few modern-day buggy-whip manufacturers.
Now, as a disclaimer, I will say that I don't believe that power-line distribution makes sense for broadband Internet. The power companies have spent the last hundred years optimizing their network to ship 60-Hz sine waves around, and trying to shovel data through a network like that is bound to be more trouble than, say, running fiber to every curb in America.
Re:Right ON! (Score:2)
Re:who cares? (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't recall seeing this in any DARPA specifications. It was designed to provide network communications over unreliable links. And before people go off bashing ham radio, consider that Karn's Algorithm, a critical component of TCP/IP without which the Internet would have died long before the present number of hosts, was developed by Phil Karn, KA9Q (a ham radio operator) to solve problems with TCP over AX.25, the ham packet radio protocol.
"The Internet" would not survive a nuclear strike. Hell, as we have seen great swaths of it can be taken out by a clumsy backhoe operator. Ham radio definitely has uses. In fact, ham radio could quickly be brought to bear to provide TCP/IP links to replace damaged infrastructure.
Ham radio is often used to provide communications following disasters like hurricanes.
No doubt the Internet is more important, and more capable than ham radio in general, but with my ham gear and a 12v battery I can provide significant communications for a lot of people. How much of the internet functions when a whole city's power grid is out?
Re:who cares? (Score:2)
OK ... you get lost in the desert or the Colorado mountains and we'll use the internet to coordinate the rescue effort on the ground. With everyone driving 50 miles to the nearest payphone to check what's happening in the search,
Re:who cares? (Score:3)
Re:give the guy an insightful (Score:5, Informative)
You live in, let's sa the LA area (you mention earthquakes). No a search on LA and CERT. The hams TRAIN to work with the police and fire departments in case of disaster
Look up ARES - The Amateur Radio Emergency Service
Look up the fact that ARES works closely with the Red Cross, the Dept of Homeland Security, FEMA, LOTS of fire departments, wilderness rescue teams and the like
Look up RACES - Look up what happens if the Government declares a Radio Communications Emergency (and think about what happens to your 802.11 links - say "Bye-bye")
4-80MHz (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:good riddens (Score:2)
*eyes widen*...But there hasn't been any link beetween powerline internet and 802.11 performance has there?"
Any Ham Radio Operator knows this isn't off-topic.
The internet is directly responsible for my letting my license expire. Lots of people have a similar story. (For the record, there are more chicks on the net
Re:wait... (Score:2)
Re:My experience with a Ham Group (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Where's the problem?? (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, the disaster area has no power, but what about the people you need to recieve you?
What benefits? no AM? no emergency services?(other emergency services as well as ham), Noise on non properly shield equipment(like most home electronic equipment)?
Now, what benefits of broadband are there? you can get email with dial-up, you can get IM with dial-up. clearly broadband is not a criticle need.
Don't confuse numbers of users with usefullness. Perhaps we should get rid of the firestaions, since they only help a small handfull of people?
Re:Coincadence... (Score:4, Informative)
Then there is possible international issues as the ionosphere doesn't obey any kinds of national borders when propagating signals. What if a US BPL installation interferes with radio communication in an emergency in China?
Now on to your question. All kinds of overhead transmission wires can and will act as long-wire antennas and will spread these signals around. Underground cables could be less radiating, depending on what configuration they are. Thus, I would expect a 3-core cable which is three conductors twisted like a rope to contain the signals better than three individual one-core cables laid side by side. However, once these cables emerge and connect to the wiring in your house, all bets are off. I would expect the house wiring to be the biggest radiator in suburban areas where the grid is underground.
Note that "long" in this context means longer than the wavelength of the signals. For a wideband signal like BPL, the shortest wavelengths are on the order of 2 meters, (7 ft)so any piece of wire longer than about 1/4 of this can radiate some of this signal. The longer the wire, the better the radiator and the more signal is emitted and interferes. The low frequency end of the BPL spectrum has wavelengths on the order of 300 meters or 1000 feet, so even a little neighborhood-sized power spur line could radiate a lot.
Considering that the power distribution network is designed for 50 Hz or 60 Hz and most components were either designed to block high frequencies or never had any specs for these high frequencies, there could be a lot of rework needed.
Just look at a commonly seen energy meter for example; an electromechanical meter of the kind counting your consumed kilowatt-hours. This is basically a big series inductor, which does a good job of blocking these high frequency signals. So every house may need some kind of RF meter bypass or at least the old electromechanical meters may need to be replaced. Everywhere.
Stringing fibers along the power-line rights of way would be a much better way of distributing these data signals. It might even be less expensive than trying to pass high frequency signals through devices handling high voltages. Some kind of bridge for the "last mile" appears to be necessary anyways.