Shopping for a New Monitor? 653
Cecil asks: "Well, I've looked through the reviews and found several good displays. The problem is that quality can vary drastically from unit to unit. Just because the reviewer got a good screen doesn't mean you will. A lot of people say that it's a bad idea to buy a display device sight-unseen and from experience I have to agree. There are the big chain stores that will have monitors on display, but they will typically only have the 'value' models. So, what is your monitor buying process? What do you do to make sure you get the sort of high-quality display that'll last you through the next couple hardware upgrades?"
Go to lan parties (Score:3, Informative)
Ok, it might not be a good general solution, but that's where I saw the totally boss Samsung 171P, and thus that was the next monitor I bought.
And yes, I did just use the phrase "totally boss". Deal with it.
Depends on Your Price Range (Score:5, Informative)
That brings me to another good point, make sure the monitor has a good warranty so that if something does happen to it, you can get it fixed for next to nothing.
Buy from reputable sources (Score:5, Informative)
result I spend a lot of time making sure I have the proper setup.
The monitor is typically the most expensive single component on any
computer setup I get. However it also has the most longevity, so
it's very imporant to get it right.
My favorite monitors are the View Sonic series. It's possible there
are better monitors out there, but I am incredibly hesitant to switch
from a brand that I know very well and trust implicitly. I now own
my seventh ViewSonic (multiple computers) and I've had a good
experience every time except once. On the most recent setup I have
two computers on a monitor switch, on one of the computers the
letters were slightly blurry. It was very apparent because the
letters were crisp on the other computer. Getting a new video card
fixed the problem.
In short here is my advice:
- Buy a brand well known for quality
- Buy from a store with a good reputation
- Go for good resolution and high refresh rate
- Pick a video card that is compatible with your monitor
- Talk extensively with people who have experience with the brand
you are considering.
Spend the $$$ (Score:1, Informative)
Good place I know (Score:2, Informative)
Sells what could be considered "Factory Reject" monitors that are actually fully functional, but the companies just wouldn't send out to sit on the shelves.
From their FAQ:
"Grade A - Monitor is in Great Condition
Has slight Cosmetic Blemishes, examples of which are (but not limited to):
Slight Scratches in case"
That's the grade you want obviously.
I got the IBM P202, 21" monitor, $225. Works beautifully.
What's worked for me (Score:2, Informative)
Doesn't work for everyone, but I spend all my computer time looking at the thing, I'm willing to spend a lot on the device. Don't skimp on cheapo, budget, or even midrange brands.
Trinitron (Score:5, Informative)
Get a Trinitron. They're pricey, but you won't regret it. They're brighter than regular monitors, as sharp as LCD screens, have excellent color and long life. The new ones have a special screen that is externally flat, but internally concave. This reduces glare but prevents the annoying edge distortion of normal flat CRT monitors.
Sony has an interesting description of Trinitron technology here [sony.com.sg].
If you're not adverse to looking on eBay [ebay.com], you can find some good deals there. Remember that many Dell, Sun, IBM, and SGI monitors are actually relabelled Trinitrons, so don't forget to check on them as well.
Yep, it's tough. (Score:2, Informative)
I buy sight unseen, but then I'm picky. If you can't buy from a local store that is easy to return to, then go with a brand that stands behind their quality claims. I currently own an NEC FE950+. The first one I got (via a web order) had bad geometry. NEC cross-shipped me a new monitor and sent me a voucher for the return shipment of the rejected unit. Pretty hard to beat that kind of service. Good luck!
Oh, I also love ViewSonic and was loathe to switch, just like an above poster. I thought the NEC would be better quality... I'm not disappointed with it -- it's a great monitor -- but it's no better, and was a bit pricier. Next time I will probably return to a ViewSonic.
Fatwallet or Anandtech (Score:5, Informative)
I always find Screamin deals on LCD's there, I bought 3 Dell 1900FP's Just before X-mas for $1300, Dell was running a Buy 2 get one free deal, and I couldnt pass it up the LCD's are GREAT
devsdeals.com & Dell (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Buying an LCD? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:CRT vs LCD (Score:2, Informative)
Most manufacturers are willing to replace these (for a fee, of course).
Re:Depends on (more than) Your Price Range (Score:3, Informative)
Since then I've run into several other people who have had early deaths of MAG monitors, one good friend lost three before he learned. He did send in two for rapairs, paid more than they were worth for shipping, and still ended up with dead monitors shortly after the end of the warranty period.
I switched to Viewsonic and haven't regretted it.
You can't judge quality just by how much you pay.
Re:CRT vs LCD (Score:4, Informative)
OTOH, the green and red lines only show up for certain color values, so it's not all that distracting. Sucks for games though, can't tune them out.
Re:Buying an LCD? (Score:5, Informative)
So, first go to about:blank, then to javscript:void(document.bgColor='red'), javscript:void(document.bgColor='green'), and javscript:void(document.bgColor='blue') with Full Screen (F11) after each color.
Dumpster Diving. (Score:3, Informative)
2. Make sure they use relatively old SGI workstations.
3. Wait.
4. Go dumpster diving.
5. ??????
6. Four 23" SGI-branded trinitron monitors!
technically... (Score:5, Informative)
A pixel is 'turned off' (goes clear) and lets the white backlight through it to display white.
This is why LCD's are not as good at displaying black as CRT's. The backlight is always on, and the pixels can have varying degrees of opaqueness when turned on. This makes black more of an uneven very dark gray (well, uneven on my LCD anyway..newer ones might be better at it)
Also, they won't necessarily be black or white. I have some green dead pixels.
heh... their 22" CRT is probably better :-) (Score:2, Informative)
I work with a lot of quality 21" monitors (newspaper , so we have layout staff) and the new mitsubishi monitors take the cake. Sony might compare (haven't worked with them) but Philips can't even touch them.
Our new machine is a G4/2x866 with a Mitsubishi 2060U - nice, too bad its an (os9) mac. My housemate liked the quality so much he went and bought a 2070U and a Radeon 9700 card - the results are incredible. I've never seen colour like it, and its so crisp its incredible. Almost matches a mid-range LCD for sharpness, but is better than the colour quality of the very best. BLACK IS BLACK WHEN WHITE IS WHITE. Wow.
Re:Go to lan parties (Score:3, Informative)
The Best Bad Monitor Test.... avoid poor geometry (Score:2, Informative)
Nokia Monitor Test is the best free tool I have found for testing monitors.
Get it from Major Geeks [majorgeeks.com]
Digital LCD's (Score:2, Informative)
In my experience, Apple's LCD's are clearly the best, though you have to buy a $150 converter to use 'em with a PC because of the proprietary ADC connector that carries power, video, and USB.
Dell's digital UltraSharp models are pretty good, too.
Re:Digital LCD's (Score:3, Informative)
Actually its not propreitary, Apple just happens to be the only company that uses them.
Re:Go to lan parties (Score:5, Informative)
LAN parties are good, you should always see a sample monitor before buying. Never buy on spec alone.
For LCDs, take a laptop to the showroom, and insist on testing it there for dead pixels. I use simple HTML and opera's full screen function to test a completely black screen (for stuck pixels) and a completely white screen (for dead pixels).
Reject any with any dud pixels (stuck is worse than dead). They can sell them to someone else who doesn't care/ is less informed.
Do not accept any crap about that 1-2 dead pixels are acceptable. They are not acceptable to you.
eewww... Aperture grills (Score:3, Informative)
Here's the quick breakdown:
Shadow mask: The shadow mask in a CRT monitor is a metal screen filled with holes that sits just behind the phosphor layer. Red, green and blue electron guns each send a beam through a hole in the shadow mask to a single pixel triad of the tube's phosphor layer. Although this method keeps the image sharp, it diminishes the potential brightness of the screen.
Aperture grill: Instead of a metal screen, the aperture grill consists of tiny vertical wires. The pixels on the phosphor layer are arranged in vertical stripes instead of triangular groups. When the electron guns scan across a row, the wires isolate the pixels that the individual beams focus on. This approach has a couple of advantages over conventional shadow masking. First, the use of wires instead of a screen allows more of the energy from the electron gun through, which makes for a brighter image. Second, the potential vertical resolution of a display can be greater, since the aperture grill does not rely on the vertical spacing of pinholes as a shadow mask does.
Re:Trinitron (Score:5, Informative)
The technology that Trinitron monitors use is called 'Aperture Grille' which, IIRC, consists of high-tension wires strung across a loom, of sorts. The two semi-noticable horizontal lines characterising Trinitron displays are actually the shadows from two horizontal wires used to space the vertical ones (or so I am led to believe). You don't notice them after a while, but occasionally they 'reappear'.
Aperture Grille gives a much sharper picture than traditional 'shadow mask' monitors, because the pixels are arranged in a rectangular array rather than triangles of RGB. This gives a distinct and crisp look to on-screen right angles, such as the corners of desktop windows.
The tube is also blacker, giving much better contrast. And it's flat
Anyway, I would certainly recommend Mitsubishi trinitron monitors. I've heard some bad rumours but my personal experience has been 100% good. And besides, everyone has a bad story to tell about anything.
You can also do that ClearType/sub-pixel rendering trick with trinitron monitors (which you can certainly do on LCD monitors with startling results!) because the pixels are laid out differently from those on a standard monitor.
A caveat about display models. (Score:5, Informative)
Every monitor displays colors differently. Even different monitors that are the same model! Color perception depends greatly on ambient lighting, the signal being put out by the video card, to say nothing of the monitor's controls. This is why the row of monitors at Fry's all look different--it has nothing to do with the actual quality of the monitor! Trusting your eyes may result in you buying an inferior model.
Spec out the monitor you want in terms of size and dot pitch, then go out and buy the model with those specs that also gives you fine-grained control over the color settings. Don't worry too much about what the display model looks like--it's almost guaranteed to be calibrated incorrectly.
Of course, the fun part is calibrating it when you get home. Use a utility such as Adobe ColorSync to do a quick-n-dirty calibration.
Unless you're working in graphic design, you probably won't do anything else with color management.
Nathan
LCD response time (was Re:Go to lan parties) (Score:3, Informative)
It depends on the monitor and your own tastes. If you look around, you can find monitors that are ok on response time--definitely better than typical laptop displays. The monitor I mentioned has a 25ms response time, and there are already monitors that beat it. In practical terms, you can definitely tell the difference between this monitor and a good CRT, if you're looking for it. But I think my brain interprets the blur as a slight "motion blur", because when I'm in the midst of a game, I never notice it. :)
Additionally, the monitor is nice in a lot of other ways that I wouldn't want to give up for a CRT. Of course, you get what you pay for. Viewing angle, contrast, brightness, and response time vary wildly from the low end to the high end, so you have to shop around.
Anantech reviewed a Hitatchi monitor [anandtech.com] that advertises 16ms response time, which should be quite excellent. Unfortunately, it sounds like the reviewer still noticed some blurring. The monitor sounds pretty nice in spite of that, though.
If you're thinking that LCD monitors won't be common at lan parties, it appears not to be the case. People have all sorts of equipment and computer accessories that you can peruse, some of it of a rather dubious quality. As it looks "cool", it gets purchased.
Re:Go to lan parties (Score:5, Informative)
In general, they do compared to a good CRT. BUT, these newer LCD monitors have faster and faster response times. When they get to the point that they are nearly as fast as a standard CRT (60Hz+), then they should be actually superior to a CRT. The Samsung 171P (which I bought, too) has, I think, a 25ms response time, which is pretty good. 25ms / 1000ms = 40Hz
The problem with cheaper LCDs is that their response time is lower, and so you'll get ghosting as the pixels take so long to change color/brightness that you can notice it. 40Hz isn't bad at all... you should, in theory, be able to watch any DVD movie on it and not notice any ghosting (I haven't actually tried it with my samsung, so I can't say whether that's actually true).
Main things to look for in an LCD: contrast ratio (higher the better), viewing angle (closer to 180 the better), response time (lower the better), native resolution (whatever you want). with LCDs, you are only going to want to run in exact multiples of it's native resolution, otherwise it will look like absolute crap.
The only thing I've noticed with my 171P is that stipple effects (like in Win2k when you hit shutdown) seem to flicker pretty bad, so that's another thing to check. Luckily, now that we have 16, and 24-bit graphics, we don't need stippling so much, so it rarely comes up.
I remember in Quake 2 there was an option to simulate alpha with stippling for slower computers that didn't have 3D hardware acceleration. It looked terrible.
I still use a CRT monitor for games, but the 171P probably would be pretty good, too. I'm just a perfectionist when it comes to these things. The LCD is definately a superior display for programming/word processing.
-If
A Bit of Research (Score:5, Informative)
Research was the first step, so I checked out the stock at my local Fry's - pretty much everything was a flat panel, and what wasn't was garbage. I have a dual 21" setup at work, so I wanted at least 21" at home - plasma display was not an option for me. Local compter shops didn't have much better to offer - some Viewsonic or Optiquest models that I found were relatively inexpensive, and had good specs. Most of the monitors in the 21"+ range in my local shops were either too expensive or had crappy specs.
Out of all of my local research, I made a couple of brand decisions, and went to the net to get more info. I spent some time comparing between manufacturer's sites to get a good idea of what was 'state of the shelf' at that time. Using pricewatch, I was able to find a feature/price point. Then, I hit epinions.com and consumer reports online to get some further information on the brands.
At this point, I had found the monitor that I wanted - 22" NEC MultiSync FE1250+. I then began to shop around for the best price I could find. There were several retailers that were (relatively) highly rated on pricegrabber that had decent prices for this item. I picked one and followed their order process to see how much I would pay in shipping. The total seemed acceptable (~600USD) so I confirmed the order and moved into the buyer's guilt stage of the purchase.
Here's the big D'oh. As most people do, I went searching to see if I could find a better deal after the fact. I went to some of the larger computer retailers like Gateway and Dell, and wow! they had huge sales and free shipping deals. Not only that, but Dell's price on the same NEC monitor with no shipping charge was nearly 200USD cheaper than the retailer from pricegrabber. I promptly cancelled my order with the smaller retailer and placed an order with Dell. The next week I was bathing in the glow of my new 22" monitor!
So I guess the moral of the story is to research, research, research. Get info, then reinforce it with opinion and testimonials. You don't necessarily have to see it to get a good deal. Oh, and don't rule out the big guys - they often can beat out everyone else, even on stuff they don't normally sell individually!
Re:Dude... (Score:2, Informative)
When we were with Compaq, I'd buy about 5-10 replacement monitors per week. Now with Dell, I'm buying replacements every 2-3 weeks.
We still get the occaisional bum monitor (1/150 or so. Only happened once with Compaq out of 1000+ monitors) but still find the reliability much better.
Our users love them too. Might be the flatness, might be the 19" though... not sure... Either way, for the price we get them and their reliability, I'd buy one any day. (even though i bought a Samsing SyncMaster 955 DF just before I started there) (A d*** good monitor BTW)
Re:Viewsonic (Score:3, Informative)
That's really not a good way to pick a monitor. These stores typically have a single computer hooked up to 20 monitors via splitters. The results are generally unflattering even on good monitors.
I do like ViewSonic, though.
Unfortunately expensive is usually best (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Go to lan parties (Score:3, Informative)
When it came time for me to get an LCD, I refered to these two excellent Tom's Hardware [tomshardware.com] articles [tomshardware.com] with good variety and comparisons. Note many of the displays didn't show noticable ghosting with video, and a few of them they actually RECOMMEND for gaming. Indeed LCDs have come a long way.
Re:Trinitron (Score:3, Informative)
Every monitor I have ever purchased (current count is five), every television I have ever purchased (current count is one), has been a Trinitron. Every single one is still in excellent working condition. The oldest I have is a Dell 17" from 1997. I've seen the same monitor branded as Sun, Compaq, SGI, and I believe HP.
Trinitron - accept no substitutions.
Re:Depends on Your Price Range (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Viewsonic (Score:5, Informative)
Another tip: SparcStation IPCs make excellent monitor stands and cost less (mine were $5 or so each) than the flimsy plastic junk that is normally sold for that purpose.
KDS (Score:2, Informative)
Re:go to the store - and listen (Score:5, Informative)
Every monitor has a refresh rate where it whines. You can hardly help it. I am writing this on a professional Iiyama 19" CRT which is the only brand I have been buying for ages for both home and work. They all have the disgusting habit of humming if you are trying to run them at a refresh rate that is too low. You raise the refresh where it belongs and things come back to normal. Actually while on the subject Viewsonic is crap compared to Iiyama.It is not as crap as Philipps which has never learned to converge a color mask.
The best way to undestand what a monitor is worth is not Internet, store or luser reviews. All you need to run is X. That is just X, no managers, nothing. The ugly gray background in naked X immediately shows any unevenness in the color mask, blurr, anything. So until you have run X (without any apps and without tools to set it) and have played with the refresh rates to see how it looks you do not know what you are working on.
Ah... and do not buy monitors with built in speakers. Whatever the brand. Run X on them and see how the color convergence goes to hell near the speakers if you wander why.
If you cannot run X for technnical reasons find the same background and view it under one of those "other" OSes.
guide for size queens (Score:3, Informative)
Decide what size and resolution you want. I go for insane pixel counts (at least 1920x1440) and use Mozilla zoom and app font settings to make things visible, but if your apps are stuck at fixed pixel sizes and can't zoom (or you're too stupid to make the adjustments), it may be more trouble than it's worth and you'll be happier at 1024x768.
Then if you want higher res, figure out what refresh rate your video card can do at that resolution. Anything less than 72Hz is going to be miserable, and 85Hz is nicer. If you're willing to go with 16-bit color instead of 24-bit (thousands of colors instead of millions), you can get a higher refresh rate. Some video cards say they can do 2048x1536 at 85 Hz, but you find it's only in 8-bit color mode, which is useless these days.
Unless you have thousands to spend, your resolution quest takes you beyond LCD's, and you have to get a CRT.
All modern CRT monitors will claim they can do 2048x1536, but check the refresh rate as above. And then, check the dot pitch. Tiny pixels and big phosphor dots don't mix.
Buy your monitor, plug it in, screw in the cables to avoid interference, position your monitor away from stray electromagnetic fields. Go for the massive resolution, make sure you've got the plug'n'pray correctly identifying your monitor and letting you max out the refresh rate. Then spend quality time with all the setup controls. You need zone convergence to align the colors in each area of the screen, and full geometry controls to compensate for tilt, skew, barrel, etc. Displaymate [displaymate.com] has some nice test patterns, or you can create your own in a paint program.
Realize your video card is crap and at midnight unscrew a PHB's PC and swap your card with her 300+MHz RAMDAC 32MB model, then find you have to recalibrate all your settings.
Eventually give up on 2048x1536 because GIF images are just too damn tiny, and go for 1856x1392.
If you're going for high resolution, you have to go Sony GDM-F500R or the newer 520. To my knowledge nobody else has 0.22 mm dot pitch across the screen. I have that at work plus the GDM-F400 at home at 1600x1200. They're both fantastic and have been perfect for over three years. But again if you're happy at 1024x768 the extra money isn't worth it. The Sony E and G series are nearly as good and a lot less. You may find a PHB with a GDM series that's wasted running at 1024x768, so do the midnight monitor swap, she'll never notice. Yes occasionally the two wires on the Trinitron are right where you're looking, but it's not a big deal for me.
An LCD monitor with a DVI connection to your display card should let you bypass all the messing around with geometry and convergence, but you need to be careful. As I understand it, unless the DVI connector and your video card are engineered right with dual TMDS transmitters, you can't do super-high resolutions through the digital interface.
3D Gaming or just "work"? (Score:3, Informative)
If you're into 3D action gaming and not just work/slower gaming you need a good switching speed which almost allways means CRT. There are some iiyama LCD panels that have fast switching and don't blur in fast 3D action (tested by powergamers too!), but they're still not common. Double check before buying.
If you're going to get a CRT instead of a LCD consider a high contrast, brilliant color 'Triniton' class. Be carefull though, those've got 2 thin horizontal lines between the 1st and second and 2nd and 3rd part of the screen (stabilization wires). Some find them extremely disturbing. You won't want that to be so! I personally am just sitting in Front of one (Sony E400 Triniton Flatscreen Tube) and I can see the wires if I look for them, but I've got used to it and find the benefits outway the wirelines.
Otherwise, if you're not into fast/3D gaming, it's easyer: Get an LCD!
iiyama have a good price for top range quality, otherwise I recommend Eizo if you want to be on the safe side. Both are good at CRT and LCD, Eizo being a tad pricier (and better, imho). Allthough the last time I checked (looong time ago), their LCDs where good but had a little yellowish touch to their background light.
BTW: You'll also want an digital conection for your brand new LCD screen - maybe consider a digital grafics output GFX adapter. Converting analog VGA back and forth degrades gfx quality in a noticable manner!
Here are the URLs:
http://www.iiyama.com/
http://www.eizo.co
Another advice: Do not buy cheap junk LCD! It's not just about broken pixels but also the background lighting on bad LCDs that can be unbalanced and screw up the best panel with uneven brightness or darker patches across the screen. Very anoying!
Get a Cornerstone Monitor - Professional Imaging (Score:2, Informative)
Agreed. (Score:3, Informative)
P.S. Compaq sucks, too.
Re:Go to lan parties (Score:3, Informative)
That's what the "Pixel Clock" and "Phase" settings on your monitor are for. Adjust pixel clock until the shimmering is gone. Then you'll likely see vertical darker and lighter stripes. Use phase until those are gone too. Stippled images, as obtained by xsetroot -grey are the perfect test screen for adjusting phase and clock settings.
Poor Choosing Conditions (Score:3, Informative)
Why in the hades must stores insist on hooking up 55 monitors to the same damn video signal? The guy even admitted it was awful...static, etc. STATIC?!?!? On a monitor!? Incredible. Yet I picked my monitor out from all those and got lucky. I asked if I could pull some off the shelf and have them hooked up independently, but the guy conveniently pointed out the 20lb. log chain attached to each, and I gave up on it.
The point is: Put the displays through the best you can give them at the store. Ask if you can control the signalling computer. (I was able to do *anything* in one store, and I amused the staff and customers for awhile with my antics as a 10x10 monitor wall started doing my bidding. Most entertaining.) Give them the best shot, try to burn them out on site...give them refresh rates that would make your mother scream in pain.
But at the end of the day, it's a lot of luck. Good luck!
Re:Can I ask a stupid question about UXGA? (Score:3, Informative)
Anyway, here is the breakdown:
VGA 640x480
SVGA 800x600
XGA 1024x768
SXGA 1280x1024
UXGA 1600x1200
The physical dimensions of the screen allow a higher resolution to be usable. I'm using UXGA on a ~20" CRT. I also have some Dell 2000FP's, which are 20" LCDs whose native resolution is also UXGA. the LCDs are much nicer because they have much more visible screen area. They also don't flicker at all. They cost about a grand, though.
Re:Go to lan parties (Score:3, Informative)
Desktop LCDs are pretty damn good for gaming, just choose carefully.
Look for some good specs. High contrast. Low low refresh (~25ms). I got a Viewsonic VX800, and I highly recommend it. It's DVI, so none of that pixel mapping nonsense. Pixel drawn in video, pixel sent, pixel displayed on screen. Don't be tempted to save $50; get the real deal.
Make sure it's bright. I had to turn down the brightness to almost 50% initially, but as time goes on the backlight will get less bright.
For modern high-res (1280x1024) truecolour high detail games motion blur does not hurt anything. It's just barely noticable, but if anything it adds a quite pleasant motion blur effect. I was playing the new Unreal single player game, and I got my LCD midway through, and it looked pretty much the same after the switch.