Fuel Cells Promised For Next Year 148
An anonymous reader writes "According to an article in today's New York Times, fuel cells for portable consumer electronic devices will start appearing next year. First for laptops, and later for smaller devices like cellphones. Among the interesting benefits of fuel cells over batteries is the ability to swap cells without having to power down the device." The article mentions the Toshiba cells demonstrated at CeBit, and -- no surprise -- Japan is likely to be the first market for these tiny fuel cells.
First Post brought to you by... (Score:3, Funny)
W00T!
Re:First Post brought to you by... (Score:1, Interesting)
_
Best Windows Cursors Ever! [paware.com]
Re:First Post brought to you by... (Score:1)
a hundred years from now...
Alcohol - Helping laptops dance since 2004Re:First Post brought to you by... (Score:2)
What does this year run off of?
So... (Score:5, Funny)
We heard that business-model before. :( (Score:3, Insightful)
I just say no to that open source bussinessmodel!
1: Write free software.
2: ?
3: Listen to more bullshit about fuel cells comming real-soon-now once again.
4: Profit!
Re:We heard that business-model before. :( (Score:2)
So, I think the business model can and DOES work, what I think is your steps are too complicated
1: Write free software
2: ???
3: Profit!
Your listen to more bullshit about fuel cells could fall in category 2. Along with lots of people using your free software, you not making any money from it whatsoever, and you working your ass off to improve the free software, losing your job, your car, and yo
I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:5, Interesting)
There is one other very important aspect of micro-fuel-cells which, as far as I know, no company has latched onto at least in public.
40% ethanol/60% water is a significantly less efficient fuel than methanol, but it is realily available (although heavily taxed) almost everywhere in the US as Vodka, as well as being much cheaper as denatured alcohol.
The probable ideal fuel cell would be able to operate on denatured ethanol (for lower cost) as well as straight vodka. It would be incredibly useful for one to be able to refill the fuel cell using something readily available from most airline beverage services and hotel minibars.
Improvements to allow impurities (eg, Tequila, Whisky) would be even better, as now the fuel cell can operate on a wide variety of commonly available fuels. Allowing the cell to operate over a wider range of alcohol as well (20%-80% ethanol) would now allow even more variety in fuels as well as using more dense (and more efficient) fuels.
In 10 years, my personal bet is that most portable fuel cells will be ethanol powered, specifically for the fuel-availability convenience.
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:4, Interesting)
Seriously though, what happens to the elements in the liquid that aren't Hydrogen? Is it drained, or evaporated?
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:4, Informative)
The water you evaporate. Heck, evaporative cooling would help everything else in the system, and you aren't talking about very much water.
As for the imurities/junk, just recirculate it back into the "fuel tank", and about once every few months, you dump the fuel tank out to clean it.
I am Bender... (Score:1, Funny)
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:3, Funny)
Denatured alcohol (Score:1)
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:5, Funny)
The dialog went out like this:
Ok, laptop, one sip for you, one sip for me...
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:3, Insightful)
Now, if they were inventing the car, they would create special fuel bags that could only be bought from the maker of the car or somesuch.
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:4, Insightful)
Exclusivity would only work until one manufacturer decided not to play that game.
Refull Anywhere would be a powerful marketing and usability tool. Once one manufacturer doesn't go the inkjet (gouge on the ink) route, the others will have to follow or get left behind.
Also, its not like methanol is really exclusive/exotic. You can pick it up at the hardware store for a paint thinner/solvent. It just isn't as widely available as ethanol.
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:2)
Once one manufacturer doesn't go the inkjet (gouge on the ink) route, the others will have to follow or get left behind.
Has that happened yet with inkjets? I must have missed it, I'm still buying expensive HP cartridges.
If it hasn't happened to inkjets, what does that mean? Incredibly effective price-fixing strategies in the inkjet industry?
Of course, the applications for fuel cells would be far more general than for ink, so maybe there would be more competitive pressure.
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:1)
It doesn't mean anything - inkjets can get away with their lock-in model since a cheap and easy substitute isn't widely available. I guess you could try ink from pens, but the nozzle on an inkjet is far more prone to blockage than something like a fountain pen nib.
I'm not sure refuelling from drinking alcohol will ever take off - all of the devices which are going to use fuel cell
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:2)
I agree that this is true, but the interesting question is why. Why hasn't at least one manufacturer (maybe one that isn't doing as well as HP or Epson) decided to go for the enormous marketing advantage that cheap cartridges would give its products? This was the thrust of the parent post-- that as soon as one fuel cell manufacturer broke ranks with the industry and made refu
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:1)
Easy - because they all built their business model around "sell the printer cheaply, make it up on ink". They subsidise the design and manufacturing with the revenue they get back from ink sales, so typically the only people interested in re-fillable ink cartridges (or kits to do it) are people who don't sell printers. Pe
Why the refill cartridges are expensive (Score:2)
The cartridge in your HP printer doesn't just hold ink, it also contains the inkjet print head. It's actually quite a high-tech achievement to spray miniscule ink droplets quickly and controllably. The nozzles are also prone to clogging from dust and dried ink. By including the print head on the ink jet cartridge, consumers end up simple replacing the critical component r
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:2)
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:1)
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:1)
OMG! Dude! (Score:5, Funny)
You just invented the best expense-report loophole in history! Huzzah!
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:2)
The bottle of whiskey you buy in the store, priced somewhere near $20-- a fifth (or liter) costs maybe a dollar to make. The rest of the cost is tax. So figure it's $5.00 a gallon -- about what the folks in Europe pay.
Make an undrinkable version of whiskey (e.g, it's not aged for years in expensive oak casks, the corn, wheat & other ingredients are the left-overs farmers won't feed to their cattle, etc.), th
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:1)
Re:I sent this off to the author (re ethanol) (Score:2)
Sort of. Some Russian fighters (I don't recall which model, but one is a MiG--I read about it in MiG Pilot, the biography of Viktor Belenko, a Russian fighter pilot and defector) use alcohol as a coolant for the engine. The proof is 200--pure alcohol. In his book, Belenko relates stories of aircrews burning the jet fuel and pencil-whipping the training flights in order to drink the alcohol (because it was much better than the stuff available for consumption). Hardcore stuff--certainly stiffer than I've
I'll believe it when I see it (Score:5, Insightful)
They have a long way to go in the marketing aspect of fuel cells, because we can already see the obligatory posts about fires and such. Power sources have the potential for fires and explosions, yes. I've heard ordinary computer power supplies blow up when the capacitors overheat, and we all know about lithium + water. For fuel cells it will be no different, so we'll just have to make sure that the designs are sound before welcoming them onto our laps and pockets.
Re:I'll believe it when I see it (Score:2)
They must be trying to get around some government regulation by saying fuel cells are here, see! But they are just as they have been for the last 10 years...
Swap cells without powering down? (Score:4, Informative)
This isn't a specific benefit of fuel cells. Anyone can have a diode-switched dual supply with the backup powered off a much smaller lower-capacity device like a small battery.
Re:Swap cells without powering down? (Score:1)
-Foxxz
Re:Swap cells without powering down? (Score:1)
Re:Swap cells without powering down? (Score:2)
Heat, cost (Score:5, Insightful)
Also, I'm no expert, and I don't even follow this topic very closely...but every article I'd read previously about fuel cells mentioned that they get pretty hot. I mean like broil a roast hot. How hot are these tiny little fuel cells going to get, and would that worsen the already tricky problem of heat dissipation in notebooks?
Re:Heat, cost (Score:2, Informative)
"B" size cells? (Score:2, Interesting)
And as for standards...if they're going to replace As Cs and Ds, sure.
Total non sequitur, but... whatever happened to "B" cells? Was there ever such a thing?
Re:"B" size cells? (Score:2)
Re:"B" size cells? (Score:1)
they were around 45 volts and were carbon/zink (not re-chargeable). there were other batteries to suply voltage for the tube filiments.
note: I'm not old, I just studied the roots of the trade.
Re:Heat, cost (Score:2)
Re:Heat, cost (Score:2)
Re:Heat, cost (Score:3, Informative)
The equation for the efficiency of a carnot-cycle engine is 1 - (TL/TH), where TL is the temperature of the cold sink and TH is the temperature of the hot source, both measured in an absolute temperature scale. Because practical consideratio
Re:Heat, cost (Score:1, Interesting)
If fuel cells cost less than a dollar or two per recharge, it would cost less than batteries, and offer much better convenience (if you're going on a long trip, just stock up on 20 fuel cartridges and you're set- no worrying about finding a place t recharge/extra batteries/ac adaptors, etc)
For those who can't bear to register... (Score:5, Informative)
Prototypes of long-lasting fuel cells that can replace batteries are being tested in laboratories in the United States and overseas. "Every big electronics company in the world is working on fuel cells in one way or another," said Jerry Hallmark, manager of Motorola's Energy Technology Lab in Phoenix. Some, like Intel, are going a step further and investing millions of dollars in start-up companies like PolyFuel and Neah Power Systems to accelerate development.
"There are some applications that are getting very close to commercialization," said Mike Lynn, head of a unit at the 3M Company that makes fuel cell components.
Mr. Lynn declined to be more specific, but many analysts expect fuel cells for consumer electronic devices to begin appearing next year in Japan. The betting is that the first to reach the market will be Toshiba, which is demonstrating a prototype of a methanol-powered cell this week at a trade show in Hanover, Germany. Toshiba says the cell could be sold next year with laptops.
Some 200 million to 500 million of the small cells, sometimes called microcells, might be sold annually by 2011, according to Allied Business Intelligence, a market research company in Oyster Bay, N.Y., that tracks new technology. Annual revenue to the fuel cell companies could be as much as $5 billion, said Atakan Ozbek, Allied's director of energy research.
But Mr. Ozbek and others said that despite the momentum of research and development, widespread microcell commercialization is not yet a sure thing.
"People underestimate the complexity of the system, and start-up companies have been cavalier about the availability of all the components they will need," said Dr. Brian M. Barnett, director of the electromechanical systems practice at Tiax, a technology consulting and development company based in Cambridge, Mass.
Like the fuel cells for cars promoted by President Bush and the even larger units being developed to provide electric power to factories and homes, most microcells generate electricity by chemically stripping hydrogen of its electrons. The electrons form a current running outside the cell while the positively charged ions left behind move through the cell. The ions and the electrons are recombined in a reaction with oxygen to form water, the only byproduct if pure hydrogen is used.
The basic concept for fuel cells was discovered in 1839, but researchers differ on the most practical way to design them to generate the most energy in the least space.
Fuel cells run most efficiently on pure hydrogen, but storing hydrogen compactly and safely is a huge hurdle. Many designers of large and small fuel cell systems are trying to get hydrogen from solid compounds that contain hydrogen or hydrocarbon fuels like methanol and ethanol, even though those fuels add other elements like carbon dioxide to the waste stream.
MICROCELLS have several economic advantages over their bigger cousins in the race to commercialization. Energy experts expect to cut the smaller cells' production costs to be competitive with those of batteries long before larger cells can be manufactured at anything close to the cost of internal combustion engines.
It should also be easier and less expensive to persuade retailers to sell fuel cells the size of battery packs than to transform the huge national infrastructure of gasoline stations.
But the biggest reason the smaller cells are expected to become popular sooner is their appeal as a convenience -- something that consumers have shown a willingness to pay for -- and not as an answer to energy and environmental problems.
Fuel cells that last far longer than do rechargeable batteries would free laptop computer users and television camera crews, for example, from the need to lug he
Re:For those who can't bear to register... (Score:1, Insightful)
Silly mistake. $50 is the price of a kilowatt of internal combustion engine, not that of a kilowatt of fuel. There is no such thing as a kilowatt of fuel.
Also covered on BBC News. (Score:3, Informative)
I want one that runs on odorized propane. (Score:3, Interesting)
Hank Hill (Score:2, Funny)
Somewhere in Arlen, Texas, a bespectacled man rubs his hands with glee...
Re:I want one that runs on odorized propane. (Score:1)
Re:I want one that runs on odorized propane. (Score:2)
Which is why I want the little one to fit in about the space of a water heater.
And backup power for the off-grid (or on-grid) house. Great for a sunless week on a photovoltaic system, windless ditto on a windmill system. Top off the batteries preparatory to running power tools for construction or if it's swealtering and you need active air conditioning.
Water cooled lets you use the waste heat to heat your water tank and/or the house or trailer in winte
Sodium Borohydride to the rescue (Score:5, Interesting)
Hydrogen is the obvious fuel of choice for portable fuel cells - it packs more energy than any other (non-nuclear) fuel into a given amount of mass.
The problem is finding a safe and efficient mechanism to transport the hydrogen. A fuel cell powered by a canister of highly compressed hydrogen gas could have the destructive power of a grenade if ignited... not something you'd want sitting next to you on a plane or subway. Meanwhile, the logistics of transporting liquid hydrogen (which must be kept cool at cryogenic temperatures) are such that it will probably never be used in portable fuel cells.
Considering how important viable hydrogen storage is to our future economy, it's amazing how few research dollars have been directed at the problem. One possible solution is sodium borohydride [millenniumcell.com] in an aqueous solution. Hydrogen is released when the NaBH4(aq) is passed through a catalyst. The solution is completely stable and nontoxic at room temperature, yet stores more hydrogen per liter than liquid H2.
Re:Sodium Borohydride to the rescue (Score:2, Interesting)
Therefore, it seems that some sort of recycling program would have to be initiated in order to use hydrogen cartridges. Perhaps this is a good reason to stick with liquid fuels for laptops - assuming tha
Re:Sodium Borohydride to the rescue (Score:2)
My Chemistry may be a little shaky, but how can a liquid that's partly made up of H2 store more H2 per liter than liquid H2?
Re:Sodium Borohydride to the rescue (Score:4, Interesting)
I do not know if this particular compound he mentioned is like this, and I'm not a chemist. But I remember in chemistry class we mixed 1/2 cup rubbing alcohol with 1/2 cup some other liquid, and out came ~3/4 cup liquid, not a full cup like expected. The reason for this is as I have described above.
Re:Sodium Borohydride to the rescue (Score:1, Interesting)
Is this really a good thing? (Score:2, Interesting)
This is great - but... (Score:2, Interesting)
I also wonder if the battery industry might start lobbying Congress like the oil/auto industries do. Or maybe they'll be smart and get in on the innovat
Re:This is great - but... (Score:2, Flamebait)
Uhhh. . . (Score:2, Funny)
You mean like my 3 year old mac laptop?
Solve Fusion, let the free market sort the rest. (Score:3, Insightful)
Moving everything to hydrogen fuel cells requires that hydrogen, a product that needs to be made with lots of electricity, be pulled from the already taxed US grid. The only answer to that new problem is having to build a whole hell of a lot more power plants. And the truth is, that NIMBY (not in my back yard) will largely prevent any new nuclear reactors from being built in the US. So in order to move to fuel cells on a large scale, or even a modest percentage of the nations automotive fleet, we'll have to at least double the existing number of fossil fuel burning power plants. These will mostly be built out in the countryside where NIMBY isn't as much of a problem, pumping electricty into the cities to make all this hydrogen.
So all that's accomplished by quickly adopting hydrogen fuel cells is moving existing pollution from the cities and into the countryside, remote emissions at it's finest.
I have long suggested spending big money on fusion power research. Because once you crack the fusion nut, the little matters of localized power storage for automobiles and laptops and everything else will mostly solve themselves. Because if electricity is as cheap as air and doesn't pollute, who's going to want to pay for petrochemicals? Sure, fusion may not be quite that cheap, but compared on an environmental cost and given the benefits of near total energy self sufficiency, fusion would be so very much cheaper.
Solve the power problem and the free market will figure out the best storage devices, maybe it will be fuel cells, maybe not.
Big money is spent on fusion... (Score:2)
but fusion does pollute (Score:2)
But we do have a clean source of fusion-based energy. We don't need any new technologies to take advantage of it either--with current technologies, we could build hydrogen-generating plants in the Sahara (near the ocean) and ship the hydrogen anywhere in the world, safely. It's not quite as cheap as digging oil out of the ground if you just go by drilling costs, but it's a
Why "power down the device"? (Score:3, Informative)
Since years (at least with Apple Notebooks) you can change the battery without powering down the device.
Re:Why "power down the device"? (Score:2)
Fuel Cells for telecommunications (Score:5, Insightful)
We often have to spend $10-20k to get the power company to run power to our cabinets that use less than a kW of power. It would be great to have a fuel cell generator and a 500 gallon propane tank to power sites like this.
I don't believe most of the 'digital divide' propaganda, but to the extent such a thing exists being able to have power where we need it (inexpensively) could make a difference.
Re:Fuel Cells for telecommunications (Score:1, Interesting)
The entire system was bought out by Ballard who is notoriously slow to deliver anything; maybe this will be an exception: http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030219/192127_1.html
While most slashdot posters appear to be luddites, a good source of info on fuelcells is: http://www.h2fc.com/news.html
Just remember to wear your
Why do new technologies emerge East to West? (Score:5, Interesting)
And why do a lot of people in the US seem to think we are the vanguard of scientific research and development. Sure, some things apear first but many, but as I said many things are developed elsewhere first.
Is it regulation, funding (or lack of), or is the US not a good testbed for new technologies? Or is it all of them? I can see many madical things being developed or used overseas because of FDA regulations, and common sense tells me the average American needs help turning on a computer, let alone figuring out one of those newfangled (read: oldfangled :]) 3-G cell phones.
Re:Why do new technologies emerge East to West? (Score:4, Interesting)
Several factors are at work.
One is just the effect of anecdotal evidence. If you already suspect that technology is moving faster in other places then you will notice stories that confirm your belief, and discount stories that dis-confirm your belief. If you want to gret real evidence one way or the other then you need to look at the relevant statistics on R&D expenditure, and patent applications (both of which show the US way out in front on basic research, and product development).
Another factor is the difference in markets. Japan has a very high proportion of early adopters, so new technologies tend to do far better in Japan, and have a much better chance of getting established there, than anywhere else. I don't know whether the same can be said for Europe. In any case, this is a matter of where technolgies first go to market, not a matter of where they get developed, or whether the initial research was done.
A third factor may just be the particular market you are looking at. Japanese companies dominate the consumer electronics market, so if you are looking at consumer electronics to judge the pace of technological development then of course Japan will appear to be leading. If you look at other technology markets then the picture looks quite different.
Re:Why do new technologies emerge East to West? (Score:2)
I'd go even further than this, and say that the stories reported in the media will confirm this. Assuming you read mainly American news, they'll usually report when a product will first be available, and then when it will be available in the US. If the two are the same, they won't bother mentioning it. So, they might say "this w
Japanes companies, American workers, in America... (Score:2)
I don't know who designs Toshiba's fuel cells specifically, or where, but almost all Toshiba's other engineering is done in Irvine, CA -- by people from all over, but usually Americans. Almost all are graduates of American univerisities, though.
Re:Japanes companies, American workers, in America (Score:2)
Re:Why do new technologies emerge East to West? (Score:3, Interesting)
Some technologies apear this way while other technologies/toys appear here first:
VS Japan, we get the following first
Medical drugs - AIDS, cancer and Biotech drugs
Most high-tech mountain climbing gear - stoves, tents, ski's
Recreational drugs - Crack, cheap Meth.
Apple computers.
SGI computers.
Corvettes.
Cadillacs.
New procedures for making hot chick
Re:Why do new technologies emerge East to West? (Score:3, Interesting)
Actually, this is not entirely true. While the US is the leader in medical R&D, many drugs are released overseas first -- some recent examples include the cancer drug Iressa and the erectile dysfunction drug Levitra. Clinical trials are cheaper overseas, and recruitment of patients is often easier. Plus, most countries are not as litigious than the US, so companies can test market a drug with less financial risk.
A final reason is that the FDA has a w
Re:Why do new technologies emerge East to West? (Score:2)
Their timing is impeccable. (Score:1, Troll)
FAA (Score:1)
There's a key brokenon my laptop. I'm sure you can figure out which one.
Oh no... (Score:1, Flamebait)
Why Swap Cells? (Score:2)
Re:Why Swap Cells? (Score:2)
Nice and clean, easy, stuff like that...
Will they make combos..? (Score:2, Funny)
Automotive industry brought out...again (Score:1, Insightful)
Really, is there no one in the industrial world with the brass balls to just say no to oil money? - or is it a case that if you say no then they just pay the govern
Radiation levels (Score:1)
Re:Radiation levels (Score:2)
Gasoline, that highly flammable, highly explosive liquid is nice and safe though. Especially in Ford Pintos.
Nucleur Cells (Score:1)
horsepower wars (Score:2, Interesting)
The better bet (maybe, this is my general question really) right now with fuel cells versus
Yeah--do we need 'em? (Score:2)
I also understand that the market tends to use devices to and beyond their apparent potential (case in point: hard drives, which at one point were assumed to have WAY too much capacity, but now are used to store digital video).
I guess
Re:horsepower wars (Score:1)
Nowadays you find yourself wondering if it's ok to use a 64mb buffer for some data and you don't even really think about it, you just think ah well memory is so cheap now.... and that's not all.
In the old days, people wrote whole functions in assembler, just to speed things up and to avoid the redundant c
fuel cells for laptops? (Score:2)
Re:fuel cells for laptops? (Score:2)
Separately: will we be able to 'refuel' at the same stations as the cars when it all comes around?
I mean, when cars also use methanol, a much cheaper and more abundant supply of fuel, to supply our hydrogen fuel cells with hydrocarbons, will we be able to also 're-fuel' our laptop
fuel cells, not sure i like it yet... (Score:2, Interesting)
Is the fuel flammable? (Score:1)
-Eric
Re:Is the fuel flammable? (Score:2)
They're here now (Score:2, Informative)
the first application (Score:3, Funny)
Laptops (Score:2)
This was going to happen. They had just about finished the standard. 10yrs ago. Has anyone seen any?
Re:This Just Proves.. (Score:1)
Your troll would be more convincing if it made any sort of sense after reading the article summary.
Slight corrections... (Score:2)
because
It powers conception^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H lets geeks have sex.
NOW IT POWERS YOUR PC!!!
IT POWERS^H^H^H^H^H^H LETS YOU DO EVERYTHING GOOD IN LIFE!!!
Re:Alcohol: The Wonder Substance (Score:2)