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Handhelds Hardware

Agenda's Linux Based Handheld 130

Posted by CmdrTaco from the little-is-your-friend dept.
ebroo writes: "The Linux Agenda VR3 handheld from Agenda Computing just so happens to be Linux based." Not nearly as impressive as the iPaq which I've now seen running X with handwriting recognition, but much more practical and very inexpensive. I'm not sure if you can actually buy one yet tho...
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Agenda's Linux Based Handheld More

Agenda's Linux Based Handheld

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  • (Why) not just port Linux to existing PDAs? ... what about for PalmOS?

    There is a Palm port of Linux. Actually, the CLinux [uclinux.org] is for CPU's without a memory management unit, like the Motorola Dragonball processor.

    Didn't this get reported earlier?


    --

  • The main advantage I see this device having over Palm is in the realm of development. Palm development seems to require an expensive IDE to code in. There will be a multitude of open source IDEs developed for the Agenda platform. Tons of us geeks will flock to Linux PDA development once devices are released. When it comes down to it, people love free software. I dont wanna pay 10.00 for every little utility that someone writes [like you have to for most palm apps]. So I'd like to either write them myself, or have another developer out there make an open-source version.

    -=MeMpHiStO=-
  • PalmOS is able to interrupt the current process with reminders from the calendar and low battery warnings and things like that. What keeps this from being a true multi tasking system is that you must dismiss any warnings that it might throw at you before going back to whatever it is that you were doing. This sort of system is equivalent to the TSR programs that were popular back in the days when everyone used DOS. (hmmmmm.... nothing like pressing ctrl+alt+T so play tetris)
    ________________
    They're - They are
    Their - Belonging to them
  • Another not-so-great line:

    To guy with one in his pants pocket:

    So, do you have a hidden Agenda (or are you just glad to see me?)

  • Not nuts? what would be the point of open-source, etc. if the OS was burnt permanently into ROM?
  • First off, I have a gripe. The iPaq is NOT running X. It outputs directly to a frame buffer. Why would you want to run X? Now, forget the damn agenda. Why bother? The hardware is WAY too underwhelming, it doesn't exactly work yet, and why the hell do you want a full distro on your handheld. pocektlinux [pocketlinux.com]. I wish I was as smart as these guys.
  • Probably not. My one beef with my otherwise flawless (IMHO) Visor is that the Palm OS is in ROM, so screwing with the OS is pretty much out of the question, 'cept patch updates installed in RAM.
  • I pretty much agree with everything you've said. Linux, for the desktop, isn't ready for your plam. Which is why the Agenda is no good. However, Linux can work, if it's implemented correctly. Which is why (sigh) the PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com] guys kick ass. They did it and they did it RIGHT. Watch out palm. . .
  • To port Linux to another architecture it certainly helps to have all the spec's from the manufacturer. When these were obtained, Linux on the psion 5 [calcaria.net] was soon up and running.

    Two of the many projects can be found here [bigwww.epfl.ch] and here [www.epox.nu].
    However things have been moving more slowly with the new chips on the 5mx (see the mailing list [calcaria.net]).

    You can of course connect your psion 3 [demon.co.uk] or 5 [linuxdoc.org] to your Linux desktop, without supplanting your PDA's OS.
    Derwen

  • Well, firt you have to get to know something before you can coment on it. People at Palm made gcc SDK available, so only thing you need is a text editor (and gcc :). I haven't done much developing (just a few no use applications) But i can say developing is not hard if you know C.
    ---
  • possibly one of the most useful aspects of the palm is the emulator. I'd add that to the list as well.
  • Now Slashdot is pushing an Agenda?
    They've been doing that for years!

    Not that that's a bad thing, of course...

  • Can't buy either of them yet. I know how you feel, though... hard not to drool...

    -FortKnox


    -- "Almost everyone is an idiot. If you think I'm exaggerating, then you're one of them."

  • (They) use an unusual RISC processor for the CPU

    MIPS Processor is hardly unusual. See the spec at http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/system.jsp #spec [agendacomputing.com].
    --

  • I dunno, Transmeta has that Mobile Linux [zdnet.co.uk].

    __________________________________________________ ___

  • Devel any easier? (Score:4)

    by FascDot Killed My Pr ( 24021 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @08:43AM (#848634)
    I got my first Palm about a year ago. I wanted a spreadsheet for it: Nothing free. OK, I'll write my own. After a week or so of looking around and reading, I had some programming docs and managed to get a very simple Hello World working. Then I was busy moving cross country and stopped.

    Then I got a new Palm and bought the "Palm Programming" book from OReilly. Worked for a couple of weeks, but couldn't get a spreadsheet put together. The only chapter that deals with tables has maybe 20 pages total and doesn't have any real examples. Book returned. Also note: Figuring out which Linux-based GNU dev tools are the right ones is....non-trivial.

    I also found a single slide from a slideshow at Palm's Dev site that mentioned tables. To paraphrase: "Not recommended for a spreadsheet app". OK, but what is?

    Meanwhile, on my desktop I hacked a (very) simple spreadsheet engine together in about 2 hours. Yes, two hours. But I can't put a UI on my Palm and I don't need a spreadsheet on my desktop.

    Which brings me to my question: Will developing for the Agenda be any simpler than for the Palm because it is using Linux? If so, I'll switch in a New York minute ("compatibility" is not an issue for me). (My other question is, HowTF am I supposed to get a free spreadsheet on my Palm?)
    --

  • Re:No syncing with Linux (Score:4)

    by mr ( 88570 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @08:43AM (#848635)
    With 8 meg ROM and 2 meg RAM, how can you add your own 'stuff' to the box, other than data.

    If they want to support the Open Source market, they have to have something to sync *TO*. And, at this time there are MANY different things to sync to.

    One thing that has NOT been pressed is the GPL in the embedded market. Here [kenseglerdesigns.com] is an example of an embedded GPL box where no source has been released. To date, no action on getting the source.

    It would be nice to think the GPL/Linux will protect developers who choose to develop for Unix-based PDA's, but without access to source, you run the risk of being Steve'd...just like the Newton developers did.
  • Holy cow! One month?!?! That's amazing. Either the hardware is better at saving power than I thought, or the stat is wrong.

    I saw on their product specs [agendacomputing.com] that it has 16-greys, so its not quite just black & white:

    240x160 pixels monochrome LCD, 16 grey scale, 2¼" x 3¼" viewable area

  • Without 802.11 this thing is pretty much useless to myself and most of my colleagues. It's not fast, but it works perfectly well. Why aren't they supporting it?
  • From Product Details [agendacomputing.com]:
    The bundled QuickSync software in Agenda synchronizes Outlook from the unit.
    QuickSync is compatible with any PC operating system that can run Outlook including Windows 95, 98, 2000, Windows NT 4.0 and Windows Millennium. QuickSync requires 2MB of hard drive space and 16MB RAM...

    Who is going to buy this thing? Windows users? I think not.
  • I thought the "sync" was referring to address book and appointments. But it wasn't described. I'm inferring this from the separate mention of email.
  • Not quite as nice as YOPY [samsung.com] in my opinion.

    Yopy rules!

    -FortKnox


    -- "Almost everyone is an idiot. If you think I'm exaggerating, then you're one of them."

  • No syncing with Linux (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward

    Looks nice, but it doesn't include software to sync with anything but Outlook on Windows.

    That's bad.

  • You have it backwards, I think. I think Microwriter is the name of that old UK company, and AgendA [iweb.co.uk] is the name of their little computer. If you look at this picture [iweb.co.uk] with the chording keyboard highlighted, and the screen shows this is not just a keyboard. [The above phrasing was awkward, and still doesn't make clear to all readers that we're talking about an apparently unrelated keyboard/computer which has nothing to do with the Agenda Linux PDA which is the main thread. Search engine users should follow links to the main thread.]
  • Actually, looking at both sites and comparing the two units on features, the Agenda seems to beat the VTech in almost every area of hardware. And on software, VTech doesn't even acknowledge the existence of PocketLinux, whereas for the Agenda, Linux is a feature they're proud of. [As you can see, I'm ignoring the iPAQ entirely --- I consider a PDA that you have to recharge every day as worthless. The 2 AAA batteries in my Palm last 3 months.]

    Given the above, what was the basis for your statement suggesting the opposite?
  • Now Slashdot is pushing an Agenda...

    Other not-so-great lines:
    At a meeting: Did everyone bring an Agenda?
    After clear cases come out: Your Agenda is transparent
    Man with pink handheld: Agenda Benda
    --
  • I couldn't agree more with all your points, especially the importance of battery life --- the iPAQ is packed with features, yet it would be totally worthless to me because it needs recharging every day. The Agenda doesn't make that mistake.

    Hmmm ... are you suggesting to replace X11 with Squeak? What an intriguing idea. Among other benefits, it ought to cut down app size by at least 2 orders of magnitude.
  • It's incredible. Here everybody hailing the introduction of new Linux handhelds, yet just a few months ago, they flambayed WindowsCE for being to bulky and cumbersome. As far as I can see, there is no difference in terms of interface between the Linux handhelds and the WinCE ones. These things have to be judged on their merits, not the fact that they use Linux. The fact remains that these things will not be usefull until they figure out a decent interface. The current interfaces simply don't work on a handheld. This is evidanced by limp sales of WinCE. Even MS realizes this and is taking steps to changes it. Whether or not a name-change constitutes acceptable changes is irrelevant. At least they realize there is a problem. (That was a joke, laugh) If these new handhelds don't get clever, intuitive interfaces (just rip of Palm, it's so much easier then designing your own!) then they will have limp sales, whether or not they use Linux.
  • Would be very interesting to know if there's support for nfs-mounting the palm's file system.
  • Yeah man, it's about time the hip dudes were in charge!

    Hipocracy noun Rule of the terminally hip.

    But where's the hypocrisy here, it looks like Agenda will be offering an interesting handheld combining serious processing power and expandibility at an attractive price. There is nothing incredible about people being enticed by this prospect. And it seems that Agenda's interface is a near clone of Palm's, with a few enhancements made possible by the greater procesing power available. So what if isn't totally original, why bother re-inventing the wheel, unless some lawyers force you to.
    If the Agenda is well made product, and proves to be as stable as Linux desktops are, I'll buy one.
  • it's great to see yet another alternative to the palm. it looks as though it has decent apps, and a great starting price tag, plus it looks cool. although wireless internet is something this device lacks. oh well, guess i'm stuck w/ my Palm VII for now (which isnt' TRUE wireless internet either, but good enough for me, for now).

    -
  • Its funny to see a slashdot user say that linux isn't good for some platform. I have the frame of mind that, initially, it might not be the best, but because of it being open sourced, and having thousands of developers, it will become the best for what people use it for.

    And, since the point of a PDA is for it to work quickly and behave as if it were a notepad, addressbook, etcetera, from where do you expect those thousands of developers to arise?

    I have a palm. I use it a lot. I'm not about to replace it with something less useable that maybe has a touch more hack value. These things are not computers, and treating the market the same way is a mistake.

    So, I'm not interested, but maybe other people will be? I doubt it. I'm an active contributer to NetBSD [netbsd.org]. I've whacked away mostly at making extraneous things behave on the macppc port. There are fewer active developers of the port than I can count on two hands. Definitely not thousands.

    I'll grant you that I'm not talking about Linux, but development of NetBSD functions along similar principles... principles that are perhaps more applicable to the porting-[insert OS here]-to-a-PDA discussion, considering the number of platforms on which NetBSD runs (ls -l /usr/src/sys/arch | grep ^d | grep -v CVS | wc -l says 35). In order to even write applications for this new platform, you're really going to have to buy one yourself, because the platform is so drastically different from a standard Linux machine, and that's a pretty major barrier.

    Especially for those of us perfectly content with PalmOS's functionality... things are pretty much right with it already, why change?

  • Missing Information (Score:3)

    by Trinition ( 114758 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @08:24AM (#848651) Homepage
    The one tidbit of information I couldn't find is the expected battery life. My Handspring Visor, with the energy conserving PalmOS, lasts for weeks on end on two AAAs. I know that beasts with bigger processors, conventional OS's, etc. tend to suck up power more quickly. This seems to fall into this latter category.
  • Its does telent and ftp and you can drop to bash and use handwriting recongition on the CL.
  • <snip>
    Sure, you get decent power and an open source (insert obligatory drooling here) operating system, but what else? <snip>

    Not to be too rude, but that's the whole point of the open source movement. Sure, its not the absolute best as far as things like app size, but linux has just been introduced to the PDA industry. You give it a year, and it'll top all categories (including size of apps), because of the open source alone.

    Its funny to see a slashdot user say that linux isn't good for some platform. I have the frame of mind that, initially, it might not be the best, but because of it being open sourced, and having thousands of developers, it will become the best for what people use it for.

    Please don't hurt me for my opinion,
    FortKnox


    -- "Almost everyone is an idiot. If you think I'm exaggerating, then you're one of them."
  • So. If this thing runs linux, and linux is GPL, they have to make available the source for the device's OS, right?

    So if the full source is available for the thing, does that mean Random Q. Hacker might be able to code and compile his own OS for the device, from scratch? For example, to make something more Palm-OS-ish? Maybe implement a Mach or ExoKernel on the thing?

    Or maybe something less extreme: Allowing hackers to help improve the OS to solve some of the gripes that you see posted here about an otherwise very open and cool-looking device?

    I'd be interested in it just for the hack value!
  • I could have sworn I looked at this yesterday or the day before... but maybe I am pshycic...

    You are 100% correct, it was one of a number of links that were in this article [slashdot.org] on August 16, on the LinuxWorld festivities.

    I'm glad I'm not the only person who was experiencing deja vu on this article.
  • Is the handwritting on this:

    1) A draw app that keeps your scrawling
    2) A graffiti-like 'learn a special alphabet'
    3) NI's rosetta code (printing handwriting engine)
    4) Callifiger's cursive engine
  • Actually, I'm looking for hotsynch for it for an IBM 7040/7044. I can probably port the Fortran version from my SDS 940 though. Truthfully, I never actually worked on an AS/400, just screenscraped from them on OS/2. That was enough.
  • Erm.
    I can suggest you 2 alternatives :
    1. Buy a second-hand Atari Portfolio [atari-history.com]
    2. Buy a Palm Pilot and replace all with LispMe [lispme.de]
    You see, the world just happens to be a bit more colorfull than your Black'n White manicheanism.
    --
  • Maybe Linux PDA's will have some success with the geeky crowd, but I've seen what will turn the Pocket PC into a mainstream product:
    MS Reader. You can forget Pocket Word, Pocket Excel an Pocket whatever, they are a pain to use. But unless someone develops an ebook reader capable of reading (not necessarily open)standards compliant ebooks, MS will have for itself this portion of the pie.
    MS Reader is really the killer app for this kind of devices.
    And I doubt gecko would fit on a PDA (though they made it fit on a floppy... maybe there's still hope)
  • Actually, Palm/USRobotics/3Com never created a compiler. PalmOS apps are cross compiled using the standard version of gcc or the MetroWorks CodeWarrior tools.

    The thing that keeps PalmOS apps small is the the fact that they are straight C code (no C++ inheritance bloat) and the fact that the OS does a very good job of providing all the basic functionality. Everything from GUI controls to strcpy are provided via OS calls. If Linux PDA's are to succeed, someone needs to create a good shared library that provides 90% of the core functionality that a PDA app needs.

    libc gets you part way there (though a hacked down version would be a good idea) ... add a gui toolkit that doesn't need C++ and doesn't have all the overhead of X and Linux PDA apps could easily rival their PalmOS counterparts in terms of size.
  • 66 MHz machines running X windows must be dog-slow, too.

    Nonsence, most 66MHz processors are more than capable of running X windows. I have a 66MHz 486DX in the next room which does a perfectly adequate job (although not at 1600x1200 x32bit - obviously). At quarter vga mono, it would have no trouble. X windows was around well before 66MHz processors were, even in desktops.

    John

  • I code for the palm, using XEmacs, the gnu toolchain based prc-tools, and debug on the Palm emulator (a GPL application being activly supported by Palm) using gdb via the DDD front end. This provides a very nice development environment, for which I have all the source, and paid nothing.

    I doubt that Agenda, have as got their offerings as well set up (how long will it be before they have a polished emulator?) for programming using an open source platfrom, or not.

    There is a considerable amount of open source software available for PalmOS, as well as the huge amount of shareware/commercial software - mostly written by Windows users.

    John
  • Yup, that's exactly what I'm proposing. Ideally, I'd junk most of userland Linux as well- all you would need to put Squeak on a PDA would be the kernel, Squeak, and maybe some other utils that Linux needs to get Squeak running. Squeak would run directly on the framebuffer- why bother using X or W if you're using a hosted windowing environment like Squeak?

    PDA apps should be fairly easily built for Squeak in Smalltalk as well, especially with the newly released GUI builder. There would be a lot of technical points which wouldn't need to be addressed, like file format for syncing- just serialize the objects and send them down the serial port.
  • "Palm development seems to require an expensive IDE to code in."

    Not true. Palm provides a free (as in $0) SDK that uses gcc set up as a 68K cross compiler. You can build your own PalmOS apps without spending a dime on tools ... which is one of the reasons for the Palm's success.

    Not to mention that for $15 you can buy OnBoard C for the Palm and actually create native standalone PalmOS apps right there on your PDA. That's one of the reasons I opted for a Palm device (actually a Handspring Visor) over a PocketPC. As far as development is concerned, Palm is actually far more "open" (yes, I'm using that term very loosely) than most people realize. No, they won't give you the source to the OS, but they are more than happy to show you how to patch it and change it to your heart's content.

    I'm eager to see what kind of potential the Agenda has once it finally ships, but I'm not totally convinced that having the source to the OS is going to make development any easier than it already is on the Palm platform.
  • I saw pocketlinux At the linuxworld Expo and i saw Cmd taco there scoping it out, (BTW if you havent seen it or the screenshots check it out talk about compeling, Its lightning fast and really cool runing a 2.4 debian kernal, www.PocketLinux.com.) So i pose this question to the slashdot community What did agenda do for not 1 but 2 post's on its inferior vaporware, pocketlinux is available for download today for free! just a note for those intrested I checked the specs on pocketlinux's develplatform, the vtech helio, its faster then the agenda 75mhz mipps in the helio 66mhz in the VR3

  • oops (Score:1)

    by JimRay ( 6620 )
    I was wrong about the iPaq not running X. It's just that the one I saw doesn't run X. My bad. And I humbly apologize to anyone who sold stock or divorced their significant other due to the fact that I had incorrect information on my post.
  • > don't think your gonna beable to telnet/ssh

    Actually you can do both on Palms.

    --
  • Here's a free spreadsheet [handango.com] that Requires mathlib to do the FP numbers.

    The program hasn't been updated in a long time, but it's free and it's a spreadsheet.

  • The iPAQ runs X?

    I tried to find out more about the iPAQ but the links from this page [compaq.com] were broken.

    Does anybody have info on the iPAQ running X?

    Vanguard
  • System requirments for PC connection.

    The bundled QuickSync software in Agenda synchronizes Outlook from the unit. QuickSync is compatible with any PC operating system that can run Outlook including Windows 95, 98, 2000, Windows NT 4.0 and Windows Millennium. QuickSync requires 2MB of hard drive space and 16MB RAM.

    Why can't you sync this with linux. This shows how dedicated they are for opensource.
  • Unfortunately, that makes it's email features useless for most people like me. It should not be tied to one email program, especially outlook.

    Unfortunately, I can't expect anyone to write software that would sync with anything. My linux notebook is thin and light... and yet another PDA is not going to make me leave my notebook at home.

    Sorry, but I'll only buy one if it's a laptop replacement.

    (ignore the sig .. I try not to break things like this.)
  • This is what the 2nd or third article basically stating the same thing about the Agenda. There's a lot more cool handheld stuff at LinuxWorld than the Agenda. I mean yeah it is cool but sheesh is slashdot part of the marketing arm of the Agenda? We lart Mickeysoft for vaporware and turn around and push Linux vaporware. Fo figure...
  • I just bought one today at the local (Raleigh, NC) Staples.

    When you go to their website they say they don't have any in stock in my ZIP code, but they lied. :)

    Looking forward to getting Linux on this thing.

    :wq!

  • Never mind, I'm on crack.

    I just bought an iPAQ, I was reading through all the old slashdot stories on them, and thought that's what I was posting to.

    I didn't buy an Agenda. I'm hopelessly confused. I have too many browser windows open. Help me!

    :wq!

  • Re:Linux is not for the handheld market. (Score:4)

    by generic-man ( 33649 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @09:08AM (#848675) Homepage Journal
    Its funny to see a slashdot user say that linux isn't good for some platform.

    I've been a slashdot user for some time, and I use Linux regularly. I also have owned a Palm since before I started using Linux, and I have come to the conclusion that the explosion in Palm sales hasn't been due to whizbang features, good software, or the accessibility of the OS source. It's been about style, and popularity.

    If all it took to win in the PDA market was a fast processor and some impress-your-friends functionality ("Look! The Star Wars trailer! Right here in the palm of my hand!") then WindowsCE would have walked away with the whole market years ago. Instead, Palm has introduced models at the low end to woo teenagers and college students, and models at the high end to attract fashion-conscious yuppies. You can even get a kit to mount your Palm in your luxury SUV or your golf cart. (I'm not kidding.) The OS is simple enough to use that you don't even have to worry about closing applications when you're done with them. Windows CE has had this problem until the most recent version. Desktop concepts of cascading menus, movable windows, and multiple-button clicking (how do I right-tap or middle-tap in X?) are lost on a pad-based device.

    People already complain that too much software for Linux is really "Linux86," since it doesn't support SPARC, Alpha, or PPC. The pocket arena has a lot more limitations than any of those other desktop/server platforms. Don't expect to dump gcc on this thing and be able to compile programs right out of the box. In fact, with only 8MB of room, you wouldn't be able to fit very much source at all. Guess you'll have to hope it supports NFS mounting and networking -- over its serial port.
  • Now that J2ME is available for PalmOS, you should look into using Java to write your PalmOS spread-sheet. With tools like kAWT [trantor.de], there are plenty of widgets available.
  • OK, so, who cares? Why do I want Linux on my palm vs. Palm OS or MS? Why is this so great? Just because "Linux is cool!" , or "MS Sucks rocks!"? Are there any REAL reasons why Linux on handhelds is superior to anything else? Convince me... -- ... and I can't get up.
  • Yes, its strange how it the website boasts being able to sinc with Windows or Linux, but the PC requirements are:

    The bundled QuickSync software in Agenda synchronizes Outlook from the unit. QuickSync is compatible with any PC operating system that can run Outlook including Windows 95, 98, 2000, Windows NT 4.0 and Windows Millennium. QuickSync requires 2MB of hard drive space and 16MB RAM.

    Doesn't say anything about Linux there, and...can Linux run Outlook??? I didn't think so...maybe Star Office compatibility will come soon :-)
  • The answer to your question is 5) 1,3,4, I think(not so sure about 4). Suposedly you don't have to learn anything like grafitti script, you can scrawl into a drawing proggie if you want, and it can decode 'normal' (whatever that means) writing and enter it as text into a notepad like program.

    Stewart's law: The more times you cut and paste code, the more errors will be in the original.

  • I wish they would get something like this for a 3 com Palm Pilot. I just spent $180 on mine.
  • Wasnt this all ready posted here(See LinuxPDA) [slashdot.org] just the other day? Wake up boys..

  • No because Linux is ours. Linux is free (as in speech, not to mention beer). We can do with it what we will and no one can ever take it away from us or restrict it's use.

    Is that not a good thing?

    Would you rather have your own kitchen or a McDonald's next to your living room? (Don't answer that :^)

    "Free your mind and your ass will follow"

  • Can anyone explain to me just what the great advantage of true multitasking on a handheld device is? I must admit that I'm a little bit biased I have and love a Palm III, but I just don't see the point.

    With PalmOS your applications are left in the state they were in when last in use. Yeah, they stop executing, but I've never really found that to be a problem. I can't imagine the utility of being able to run 2 applications at once on a screen that's only 240x160. At this screen size drag and drop between different application windows just won't happen anyway. Are you going to be able to do compiles in the background while doing something else in the foreground? I think not.

    Best as I can tell Linux and multitasking are just buzzwords for the marketing folk. Sometimes you really need to pick the right tool for the job and it seems to me that PalmOS is the right tool for a long battery life palmtop/organizer type device.
    ________________
    They're - They are
    Their - Belonging to them

  • Be Inc. ported BeOS from PPC to x86 in a few months, kernel had to be rewrite, but all others apps onlt recompile. They even go from CodeWarrior in the R3 x86 release to elf GNU-C in R4 release, so i think their code is portable! You know, it's like QNX/NTO, it's "closed" but one QSSL engineer port NTO to the iMac in one week of spare time. This has nothing to do with open source.
    --
    BeDevId 15453 - Download BeOS R5 Lite [be.com] free!
  • I don't see how you arrived at the conclusion that they are just using linux as a marketing tool. I would not be surprised if that was a factor in their decision, but I would be extremely surprised if it was a major factor. The reasons I see for them choosing linux is that they don't have to pay licensing costs and they don't have they don't have to build an OS from the ground up. Also, the fact that it runs linux probably gives them a larger developer base than if they had used an in house developed OS.
  • I agree, that sucks. Also, there's no explicit mention of whether the thing supports its own TCP/IP stack internally, allowing it to do the equivalent of the Palm "network hot sync". That's an extremely useful feature. A device like this with PCMCIA support and therefore wireless LAN (as at least a possibility), the attractiveness will go up considerably. On the other hand, it seems to me that there's an inherent limitation to using PDAs as peer components in a world of information presented to/for the Internet. What will be the equivalent of a banner ad that'll provide a commercial foothold for content targetted specifically for PDAs?
  • Still haven't worked out what I'd actually do with one.

    Am I the only person that thinks that 'Palm pilot' sounds like a euphamism?
  • If you notice on one of their pages it states: "Syncing with Linux with Rsync" which means that it is just copying the files accross... Since the code is open source (supposedly) then we can read those file formats and even write our own if need be. I think that the "Quicksync" is just their name for the windows side of that transfer.
  • >>
    If it isn't available now, it will be eventually, as long as developers have interest.
    >>
    This vaguely reminds me of 'infinite monkeys, infinite keyboards, Shakespeare' :) Just because anything can happen won't mean that it will.
    Eric ze Kidder
  • Try to READ the page sometimes before you're posting silly question!

    From the page: "With our Rsync Cradle and QuickSync software, you can easily exchange information between your Agenda and your Windows or Linux PC. You can also send & receive email and connect to internet."

    URL: http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/details.js p
  • Now if there is a large number of developers that are interested in seeing linux on a PDA, then expect to see a small, compact, quick version of gcc that will create small, compact, quick programs. USRobotics created a small efficient compiler for Palm's apps, so some linux gurus will do the same for a linux PDA's apps.
    My last post was about how that anything can happen with an open source project. If it isn't available now, it will be eventually, as long as developers have interest.

    -FortKnox


    -- "Almost everyone is an idiot. If you think I'm exaggerating, then you're one of them."
  • According to this page: http://www.agendacomputing.com/ products/details.jsp [agendacomputing.com] it does sync with Linux.

    "Synchronization with PC With our Rsync Cradle and QuickSync software, you can easily exchange information between your Agenda and your Windows or Linux PC. You can also send & receive email and connect to internet."

  • This device looks very promising as a Linux PDA. While I've seen plenty of posts from people whining about it's specs (66MHz CPU, 8MB RAM/2MB ROM, 16 shade greyscale screen at 240x160), they seem to be missing the point. The base model will cost $149! The iPAQ, Yopy, and other Linux-capable WinCE machines cost an order of magnitude more than $149.

    That's it's strength, to me. I'd much rather have a small, cheap unit like this with OK battery life than an expensive, big (size and weight) and battery eating hog.
    It's also as cheap as Palm and Visors cheapest offerings, but with a considerably faster CPU, more RAM and a bigger screen. Such is my argument (sans bigger screen) for another Linux capable PDA, the Helio [myhelio.com].

    I think it's pretty silly to put X on it, but I wouldn't call it a mistake, per se. Why? Because you can always take X off and put in Nano-X, Squeak, W, or Microwindows in instead.

    Now, does anyone want to help me port Squeak [squeak.org] to the Linux framebuffer for use on a PDA like this, so we can dump X?

  • No you don't... (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I asked the guy displaying it in LinuxWorld if they planned on having it be able to sync with Linux, and he said it would. I told him that if it didn't, I wouldn't be buying it. He was really positive that it would sync with Linux so maybe the web page is out of date...

  • First off, note that the palm uses a dragonball that was engineered to have extremely small code size (as well as have nifty built in abilities). The "66MHz 32 Bit NEC VR4181 MIPS" probably does not have that feature. In fact, if it bears reseblance to a MIPS processor, all its instructions should be 32bits in length; which has its benefits, but not in the realm of small code size.

    My turn to nit-pick. But I think its all too often said that anything opensource will improve by its nature:

    You give it a year, and it'll top all categories (including size of apps), because of the open source alone.

    This is innaccurate of course, lets try something like: You give us a year, and it will top all categories (including size of apps), because of the open source programmers' dedication.

    Now in light of this, does it become clear that if a couple hundred people own these, and most of them don't program, and the ones that do write apps, that the OS will not improve? I think so. What this needs it critical mass. The Palm has that, with or without open-source. Now its nice that if there were a critical mass, they could also work on the OS, but you'd better hope that work is done in a mildly centralized manner, particularly when considering changes that affect app size (binary compatibility issues?).

  • From http://www.agendacomputing.com/products/agenda_lin ux.jsp

    Quicksync to PC with Rsync

    Rsync is an algorithm that can determine sub-file nuances/changes to facilitate the transfering of only 'changed' data. It is also the name of an implementation of the Rsync alogorithm. So I believe that they are using Rsync to syncronize between a desktop and the PDA. I can assure you that the Rsync application/implementation works on linux--I use it every day.

    -k

  • Handhelds.org [handhelds.org] has pictures.
    ---
    Michael Hall

  • An expensive IDE? You mean that the GCC port for palm that you can download for free costs too much? :) Of course, you have to be a registered Palm developer to get the emulator and ROM, but they're free as well. Ah well.
    Eric ze Kidder
  • Apples and oranges. I, personally, really don't care about the so-called 'freedom' of my software. I want stuff that works and I don't really care what it's like. PalmOS is a minor godsend. It does everything I need in my PDA and nothing else. It's tiny. It's fast. It's not 'free', but I don't care, because the thing works yesterday.
    Ahem.
    Eric ze Kidder

  • CodeWarrior is an IDE, gcc is a compiler.

    -=MeMpHiStO=-

  • >With 8 meg ROM and 2 meg RAM, how can you add your own 'stuff' to the box, other than data.
    --

    I think that must've been a typo, I think it's supposed to be 8meg RAM, 2meg flash ROM. I could be wrong, but I think 8mb rom would just be ridiculous.

  • as long as developers have interest

    No infinity with this in the statement statement.


    -- "Almost everyone is an idiot. If you think I'm exaggerating, then you're one of them."
  • No, but "Embalm Pilot" would


    -- "Almost everyone is an idiot. If you think I'm exaggerating, then you're one of them."
  • is a 66MHz 32 Bit NEC VR4181 MIPS, so i cannot run BeOS/BeIA on this thing :-(
    --
    BeDevId 15453 - Download BeOS R5 Lite [be.com] free!

  • agenda (Score:1)

    by Hitch ( 1361 )
    I was looking through their website yesterday. looks like a really nice piece of hardware, but I don't think I'll go run out and buy one. no prices listed anywhere. if you dig around for a while, there are two models, one with a plastic case and one with a metal case. the metal case seems to have wireless connectivity to peripherals, like keyboards, etc. go look at the picture gallery. looks very cool tho'. one thing I wonder - linux has palm pilot emulators. couldn't someone install that on a linux handheld device and run palmOS programs?
    ----------------------------------------------
    All that glitters has a high refractive index.
  • But compare 149$ to 800$ and then sure, one is nicer than the other. What are you willing to pay for? Granted the yopy is virtually ready, but who knows when the US will see it.

    -Daniel

  • Easy-to-use handwriting recognition
    User friendly applications
    Super lightweight (4oz.)

    High resolution LCD screen
    Write on the entire screen
    Backlit for low-light viewing

    Extensive applications pre-loaded
    Easy download of new applications
    Open Linux O/S for unlimited new applications

    Quicksync to PC with Rsync
    E-mail and Net ready
    Infrared transfer to other Agendas and Palm Pilot units

    8MB RAM + 2MB Flash Storage on Agenda VR3
    8MB RAM + 4MB Flash Storage on Agenda VR3+
    8MB RAM + 8MB Flash Storage on Agenda VR3s

    What it looks like [agendacomputing.com]
    installed apps [agendacomputing.com]

  • Port an OS (Score:3)

    by Trinition ( 114758 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @08:26AM (#848709) Homepage
    So why develop a Linux PDA? My not just port Linux to existing PDAs? Well, it is being done for some PocketPC devices, I understand, but what about for PalmOS?

    Somehow I doubt PalmOS hardware could run Linux since it is slow. Linux is designed for a system with an always-on CPU, right?

  • Re:Does Not Sync With Linux! (Score:3)

    by pi31415 ( 60856 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @09:26AM (#848716) Homepage
    According to this [agendacomputing.com] link, the bundled cdrom has:
    CD-ROM Software: QuickSync for Linux and Windows PC

    Since a number of their other claims seem to conflict with the current state of the product as well (e.g., handwriting recognition doesn't seem to be supported yet), I'd give them the benifit of the doubt. They'll almost certainly support Linux synchronization by the release date.

  • Will developing for the Agenda be any simpler than for the Palm because it is using Linux?

    Yes.

    Considering that I despise one-word answers to complicated questions, I should probably go in to more detail.

    The Agenda uses the FLTK for its API. If you write a FLTK application for your Linux desktop, it should be easy enough to modify it to run in the Agenda's limited display size. Cross-sompile your application, and Boom! Instant Agenda application.

    - Sam

  • The thing looks like a bad clone of a WinCE with really lame apps on top of it. Had a look at their version of Minesweeper? Ever notice how most minesweeper clones have a little picture of an actual flag? Theirs has an "F".

    Also, it touts "multitasking" as one of the features, but who the hell needs multitasking on an organizer? It's not like I'm gonna be running Word on the thing.

    66 MHz machines running X windows must be dog-slow, too.

    - A.P.
    --


    "One World, one Web, one Program" - Microsoft promotional ad

  • I could have sworn I looked at this yesterday or the day before... but maybe I am pshycic...

  • Linux is not for the handheld market. (Score:5)

    by generic-man ( 33649 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @08:28AM (#848729) Homepage Journal
    This device is pretty comparable to a Palm (up to 8MB RAM, 240x160 16-grey display) but the fact that it runs Linux sets it apart from the other $149 PDA's on the market. However, you'll find that Linux is no better than CE when it comes to handheld applications. Sure, you get decent power and an open source (insert obligatory drooling here) operating system, but what else? The few applications written for this thing are HUGE compared to Palm apps. 96KB for a Minesweeper game, instead of 20KB on a Palm. 200KB for a scientific calculator? You'll burn through that RAM much quicker than with a Palm, and there aren't even as many apps for it (yet).

    Remember that Microsoft promised compatibility between Win32 apps and WinCE apps, due to some libraries and function calls being similar. Why, then, do WinCE apps lag so far behind Palm apps in breadth of functionality and quality?

    Not to mention that for the Linux geeks here that love to tinker with hardware, the Agenda VR3 offers just serial and IR ports for communication and expandability. The keyboard looks every bit as cheap as the one made for the Palm-ripoff Royal DaVinci [royal.com], which can be had for about $100.

    Sorry, folks. Open source isn't taking Palm's place any time soon.

  • I have seen these (Score:4)

    by Kiwi ( 5214 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @08:30AM (#848731) Homepage Journal
    I got a chance to see these at LinuxWorld in San Jose earlier this week. Here are my impressions:
    • The devices are notacably smaller than the Palm III series, and even a little smaller than the Palm Vs. They are as thick as the Palm III, however.
    • The devices use an unusual RISC processor for the CPU
    • The devices use the FLTK toolkit, and any FLTK application for the Linux desktop should port reasonably easily to the Agenda.
    • The application they were showing at the LWCE was a Bash shell, probably to prove these are really Linux machines.
    • Input is via a on-screen QWERTY keyboard which is part of the display at the bottom. I hope it is possible to replace this keyboard by a Fitaly [fitaly.com] keyboard, or by one of the various handwriting reconition techniques.
    • The devices will have 2 megs of flash and 8 mega of ram. The person showing off the unit was talking about it being possible to use the flash to store application and possibly data.
    • The devices are expected to retail for $150
    • They promise to release them around October
    Also, PocketLinux [pocketlinux.com] was also at LWCE, and has struck a deal to make Linux available for a competing handheld computer (I forget the exact brand name).

    - Sam

  • No, you're not. I saw it recently on a promo for "Ally McBeal" when one of the characters was having an affair "on the computer."

    "So was it a normal-sized computer, or.. you know, just a little Palm Pilot?"

    And let's not forget the dozens of Slashdot posts we get every time there's a headline like "Play games on your Palm." Groan...

  • Re:Why is everyone afraid of 802.11? (Score:3)

    by generic-man ( 33649 ) on Thursday August 17, 2000 @11:23AM (#848736) Homepage Journal
    As soon as this [xircom.com] comes out in 802.11 format, I would seriously consider buying it -- and a Handspring Visor to go with it. It's expected this fall.
  • There are a number of arguments that can be made against advising anyone wanting to buy this or any other Linux PDA - especially when comparing it to Palm. These include:

    • Lack of software that is specifically written for PDA use (both free and commercial)
    • Lack of accessories (keyboards, modems, etc). I wouldn't want to use the command line without a _real_ keyboard.

    These sound very much like the arguments for Linux vs. Windows a few years back. Based on previous experience, I predict that Linux-based PDA's will be a Palm killer (I don't feel that PocketPC really has a chance). Linux is going to get there, but it will take some time.

    A really successful Linux PDA will have, in addition to the obvious advantages:

    • Copied much of the really useful parts of the Palm user interface
    • Compatibility with Palm accessories (you can use the same modems etc)
    • Ability to run Palm software

    Once you have these, you have a killer - a perfect migration path from Palm to your PDA.

    I wouldn't buy a Linux PDA now, but if I was in a need of a new PDA in a year, I might do that. At that time, the state of Linux PDAs won't equal that of Palm (software & hardware included). In two years, it might.

    But not yet.

  • The one tidbit of information I couldn't find is the expected battery life.

    The expected battery life is one month off of two AAA batterys. Right now, the prototypes only last a day or two on the batteries, but they expect to considerably improve the power management.

    Another thing: The display is black and white. I don't know if they have greyscale.

    - Sam

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