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Handhelds Microsoft Portables (Games) Hardware Technology

Touch-based Handhelds Turned Inside Out 142

Posted by CowboyNeal from the good-touch-bad-touch dept.
holy_calamity writes "Mitsubishi and Microsoft have made a prototype PSP-like handheld operated using a touch interface on the back — the idea is to give a firmer hold, prevent obscuring the screen and allow greater accuracy than the iPhone and others. The users fingers are shown as shadows on the screen so they can see what they're doing, making the device look transparent. As a video shows, it's far from market ready, but the design principle seems sound."
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Touch-based Handhelds Turned Inside Out More

Touch-based Handhelds Turned Inside Out

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  • Playing to the market (Score:3, Interesting)

    by AndroidCat ( 229562 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @02:34AM (#20950153) Homepage
    Shadowy fingers behind the back of screen images should be a big advance for Porn Digital Assistants. I predict a win for this one.

    • Re: (Score:2, Funny)

      by Anonymous Coward
      Funny thing is, that camera behind the device points to dark surface, meaning high contrast levels (and accuracy) can only be achieved if you hands are white. It seems apparent that Microsoft hates niggers or they would have made back-panel white.

      • Re: (Score:3, Funny)

        by SQLGuru ( 980662 )
        So, they should color the back panel green and hope that certain alien species and plants are the only ones that don't want to play? Or maybe go with blue....and hope that flowers, fish, and birds don't want to play?

        Layne

  • Because... (Score:2, Insightful)

    by WithLove ( 1150737 )
    Why would I want to watch a video on a screen I've been touching all day? This is a great idea, on several counts. Hands won't obstruct view of the screen while manipulating, greater accuracy, few fingerprints/scratches.

    Only con I can think of is being able to instantly touch a certain point. It'd seem like with the "touching" on the back that you'd need to touch somewhere first to get your orientation, then touch where you want to go.

    Beyond that, I think this would be very practical.

    • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

      by Paradigm_Complex ( 968558 )
      You'd only need to orient yourself like that at first, while getting used to the device. With experience I figure it would be reasonable to gain a strong grasp of the spacing. While the tactile feedback in most devices limit what I can compare too, the Nintendo DS seems apt. During many DS games I don't want to take my eyes off of the top screen, while having to tap various parts of the bottom screen. With time this became natural. I expect the device in the article will be similar in this respect.
      • ...also you can see your fingers "through" the screen...

      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        by WithLove ( 1150737 )
        But the point is that with a DS you can see what you are "touching".

        I understand what you're saying about the fact that eventually you can just "know" where different points are on the control scheme, and I guess that's true to an extent. I just think that with most handheld devices, you need a fairly accurate touch. Lots of DS games just require that you press in the general direction of your intention (Legend of Zelda: Phantom Hourglass comes to mind). But selecting choices from a menu with a control

        • You could easily get around this by sensing the heat from your fingertips before it feels the pressure, giving you the shadow before you touch the device. That way you can just hover your finger over it.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by bwy ( 726112 )
      Agreed. My only major hang up with my iPhone that can't be easily fixed is that the friggin screen is ALWAYS getting smeared up. I live in a warm weather climate and I have oily skin to boot. I'd really have to try the technology to see whether I could get used to it or not. The nice thing about a traditional touch screen that is is the most natural of instincts. See something you want to interact with and touch it.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by shmlco ( 594907 )
        Stop touching yourself.

        Seriously. Palms and fingertips don't sweat or contain oil glands. It's only by touching your face, nose, or other parts of your body that oils begin to accumulate on the fingertips.

        And you might going to the bathroom and washing your hands after you eat.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by TheLink ( 130905 )
          Maybe you can spend the whole day without reflexively preening your hair or scratching an itch. I think most of us can't.

          Anyway, when can we get "thought macro" controlled devices? We already wired up monkeys, rats, humans to control devices by thought. Now lets come up with something that can be safe for long term that achieves something similar.
        • If palms don't sweat then how come sometimes you can leave condensation (that quickly evaporates) on a book cover or desk from your palms? I don't think it's from palming other parts of my body.. :P
        • Of course they do. Don't be silly.

          Fingers and hands are both covered in skin, therefore they sweat.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by jandrese ( 485 )
          Where did you get that idea? Your hands and feet are actually the sweatiest parts of your body, and of course they extrude oils, otherwise your skin would be constantly dry and flaky, in fact they are the worst offenders because the skin is thicker there.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by SQLGuru ( 980662 )
          Warm weather climate - that means more than likely moisture in the air (not always, but a good guess). Even if the hand isn't sweating (which I doubt it true but for the sake of argument will assume is true), there's a good chance that the temperature difference between the hand and the air is enough to provide mild condensation. I know that SOMETHING is going on because I live in a warm climate, I've dried my hands thouroughly, and watched them become moist while doing nothing but sitting there. It's ei
    • Actually, as a nearsighted individual, the first words out of my mouth when reading this were:

      "That is... FUCKING GENIOUS"

      I have a Nintendo DS, and one of the things I note about it frequently is that it is hard for me to use the touch screen because of having to put my fingers there, and how close I have to have my eyes to the screen to see. At least in my case, that would make such things useful for me.
      they
      Even a normal person, not having their hands not block part of the screen when using it, should be
    • You can see where your fingers are even when they're not touching the screen. It would probably take a little getting used to, but it's not like you'd be guessing at it even the first time you use it.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by 1u3hr ( 530656 )
      It'd seem like with the "touching" on the back that you'd need to touch somewhere first to get your orientation, then touch where you want to go.

      That's why it shows finger silhouettes, not just dots for fingertips.

  • If the front and back of the unit take input from touches.. how do you hold it when you aren't actively using it?

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by _xeno_ ( 155264 )

      On that note, how do you hold it when you are actively using it? Telekineticly hover it between your hands so that they aren't touching? Or more realistically, very carefully balance it on your thumbs? I can't come up with a way to hold the thing as demonstrated in the video without a stand or something - which doesn't make it very portable.

      At some point if this is intended to be used with mobile devices, one of the hands is going to have to become dedicated to holding the thing while the other does the g

      • Palms man,, (Score:5, Interesting)

        by msimm ( 580077 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @03:25AM (#20950367) Homepage
        They are about 1/2 the length of your hand and useless for tapping data (aside from maybe squeeze). I find myself holding just about anything two handed and I drum my fingers or generally move them around idly. This would let you grip the device while interacting comfortably. But it used a front and rear touch system, so if it did become troubling you could use your thumbs on the front or just one hand it when appropriate and problem solved. I think this a good thing and it should be very intuitive and very flexible. Apple's certainly started the ball rolling.
        • They (Palms) are about 1/2 the length of your hand and useless for tapping data (aside from maybe squeeze). I find myself holding just about anything two handed and I drum my fingers or generally move them around idly.

          Have you tried holding a device the size of a PDA or iPhone between two palms?

          For the size of device the researchers are using, it's fine. Both the thickness and the separation due to the large screen allow for comfortable holding with the palms of either hand.

          But try holding an iPhone or PDA

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by msimm ( 580077 )
            You're probably right about the size. Maybe PSP sized, but I wouldn't be surprised to see this in devices smaller. Assuming it's as intuitive as it looks it might even still add usability to smaller devices. Overall I like the idea a lot and look forward to seeing how it works out.
        • Controls on the back aren't new, touch interfaces aren't new, etc.

          When I read the blurb, I immediately thought of this:
          http://www.commodore-gravel.com/gravel/Homepage.aspx [commodore-gravel.com]
          http://www.commodore-gravel.com/gravel/Products/Gravel+in+Pocket.aspx [commodore-gravel.com] -- Commodore media player, controls on back.

          I don't know how novel it would be to just put a 3" trackpad behind a 3" LCD and use it as a pointing device. You might even be able to do this as a 'garage project' with off the shelf stuff for cheap.

          Anyhow, touch interfaces

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by weicco ( 645927 )

        I can seem to hold my guitar just fine while tapping strings with my left hand even without the belt. And my guitar isn't one of the lightest ones... So I don't see any problem here.

        In fact you can try with CD container. Hold it between your palms and drum it with your fingers :)

    • That's actually a pretty good question. Normally I hold my phone and iPod by the sides, which for me is more natural. Which isn't to say that I don't ever hold the back of these devices. I'm at work and can't access the YouTube, but from TFA it sounds as if this will be a rather awkward device. It's got a camera on the back to track the movements of your fingers.

      And the researchers are talking about using the light blocking properties of your fingers to track 'fat finger movement' or some similar idea.

  • Good idea but... (Score:5, Insightful)

    by jimboindeutchland ( 1125659 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @02:52AM (#20950213) Homepage

    While this looks like a great idea and all, I can't help but wonder how this will translate into smaller mobile devices. Something thie size of the iPhone (just to pick a random example ;) doesn't really have space for two hands. If you pick up your own mobile phone and drag your fingers around the back of it, you'll find it a bit more cumbersome than holding your phone in the palm of your hand and touching the front of the device.

    That said, this could be an important development for tablet PC's. From my perspective, it seems tablets suffer from a lack of keyboard input. Sure you can plug in a keyboard, but that kinda defeats the purpose. This looks like it could be the solution to that problem.

    Go these guys!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by SQLGuru ( 980662 )
      I have a Cingular 8125. I think this device size counts. I tried to find a way to hold it that would allow me to see the front and use my fingers comfortable on the back. Here's what I came up with. Thumb and index fingers on each side, middle fingers used for touch interface. It was quite comfortable and touching the screen did not feel awkward (I felt like I had full control over where I was pointing). I had the advantage of a firm grip and two fingers to navigate with.

      Single handed operation wasn't

  • typing (Score:5, Interesting)

    by phantomfive ( 622387 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @02:55AM (#20950227) Journal
    OK, I was thinking, "yeah, so what" until they got to the part where they type on the keyboard. You could seriously type on that thing as fast as on a regular keyboard, because of the way they laid it out. Hold it and type at the same time.

    But the webcam on the back is great. I love it. It's like headgear for handhelds. Want to be the master of geekiness? Look no further my friend: the handheld that neither fits in your hand NOR your pocket! Useless you say? Yes, but it's cool!!

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by QuantumG ( 50515 )
      Or you could put real keys on the back in the same configuration, with the bumps on the F and J like we all know and love.

      I bet the only reason there is no products on the market like this is because of patents.

      • It would make more sense to use some kind of chording configuration, to avoid the need to move your fingers from key to key. Six keys is enough, though there's no reason why all eight fingers shouldn't be used. In fact you might as well give a button to each thumb too, on the top of the device.

        The buttons would need to have enough resistance so that they can support the weight of the device without registering accidental presses.

        • It would make more sense to use some kind of chording configuration, to avoid the need to move your fingers from key to key.
          In theory, yes, but the public doesn't seem to like the idea. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter [wikipedia.org]. And there may be too much prior art to make patent grabs effective.

          • In theory, yes, but the public doesn't seem to like the idea. See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwriter [wikipedia.org]. And there may be too much prior art to make patent grabs effective.

            I have one of those - and yes, I can write with it (it does still work, which isn't bad for a twenty-year-old hand held device). Some people used to be pretty fast with them. With modern technology it could be made pretty small and light (the 1980s version is a bit of a brick. But I don't think it's the answer to the

        • Re: (Score:1)

          by kat_skan ( 5219 )

          The GKOS Sixback [gkos.com] is similar to what you describe. Their version actually goes a step further, and puts a two-button trackpoint mouse under your thumbs.

    • Actually not quite - at least one thumb and one finger has have firm pressure on the device to actually hold it.

      Typing would be quite difficult, especially since the lay out of the keyboard would be different, and the fact that different fingers would have to take turns holding the device up.

      Another thing - why is this under "Slashdot games"? This technology is definitely not limited to games.
      • I'm not sure where you get this idea.....to test, I just picked up a book and imagined there was a keyboard on the back. I was able to support the book in my palms, thus leaving my fingers quite free. The book was somewhat heavier than the device, I would assume, so I don't think it would be too hard. Also, the keys on the device are in the same places your fingers would expect them to be if you can touch-type, so relearning the keyboard layout is not necessary.

    • But the webcam on the back is great. I love it. It's like headgear for handhelds. Want to be the master of geekiness? Look no further my friend: the handheld that neither fits in your hand NOR your pocket! Useless you say? Yes, but it's cool!!

      My guess is that a market-version of this device would use a surface scanner [ubergizmo.com] on the back instead of a cam. =)

    • But have you tried touchtyping with both hands while holding it ...without dropping it ...?

      So you either learn to type all over again or use all ten fingers and drop it ...?

      Microsoft reinventing what Apple have already invented and then implementing it badly ...

       
      • Yes, I have tried a similar experiment. It seemed obviously simple to me, but you guys keep saying it would be so difficult, that I decided to test to make sure. I picked up a book the size of the device and tried typing with it. I was able to hold the book in my palms, leaving my fingers free for typing. You thumbs are obviously on the front, so something different would have to be done about the spacebar. Otherwise, I found typing rather simple. You may disagree with me, but at least try a experime

    • Re: (Score:1, Troll)

      by egghat ( 73643 )
      Well this is an idea from MS. What do you expect?

      Apple puts the touchscreen on the front, MS on the back. Which one ist more intuitive?

      Apple puts the help on Apple-?, MS on F1. ...

      So, a touchscreen at the back of the device only makes sense if your design of the GUI is horribly wrong.

      Aaam wait ... this one was from ...

      Ahh, makes sense after all.

      Bye egghat.

  • Apple patent (Score:2, Interesting)

    by m2943 ( 1140797 )
    Apple filed a patent on that several months ago. Microsoft's implementation seems cumbersome, using a camera on the back (cleverly kept out of the frame). Apple can at least implement this with multi-touch.

    In any case, I don't see this going anywhere; it's too weird.

    • Re:Apple patent (Score:4, Insightful)

      by msimm ( 580077 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @03:08AM (#20950307) Homepage
      Actually if you watch the video the demonstrator explains that the camera method is interim, claiming technological limitations. I think this technology would catch on pretty quickly considering we are pretty used to using our hands (..) to manipulate our environment. Watching it makes one think about how inefficient tactile, one-sided input is while your hands essentially fumble around at the back of the device.

      I don't know about the Apple patent but I'd be happy to see a technology like this make it into handheld devices where screen space is limited and dragging hands or fingers constantly over your workspace is less then optimal.
      • I tried to watch the video. It just looked like one enormous goatse.cx reference to me. Fittingly enough, it's operated from behind.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by sqrt(2) ( 786011 )
      Did everyone miss the part where the guy said future versions would use different sensors, not the cumbersome camera sticking out the back? There's all kinds of different ways you could sense the position and motion of the fingers, this is just a tech demo and the camera was the quick and dirty way they got the thing working so they could show it off and maybe drum up support and interest in the technology. The ideal implementation would be way ahead of anything Apple is doing right now with simple touch sc
    • Without the camera-on-a-stick it would probably have to be touch AND pressure sensitive. I'd doubt most alternative sensors could detect "hovering" fingers otherwise. With touch-and-pressure, you could hold it and not "click" until you pressed firmly enough.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by LarsG ( 31008 )
        Add light sensitive (a scattering of photodiodes or similar). You don't care for stuff far away anyway; all you care about is changes in light/colour over areas of the back so no optics needed.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by shmlco ( 594907 )
          I suppose you've never used a phone in the dark?

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by LarsG ( 31008 )
            In the dark, I always use backlight (or would it be called frontlight if you put backlight on the back?). ;-)

            Or perhaps use 'where are the fingers at' as a visual cue/aid to help your accuracy, but that operating the device wouldn't depend on it.
  • I text msgs pretty fast, but many of my friends complain how their own hand obscures what to type. Somewhat like the keyboard, a new user has to look and type, which calls for a learning curve How to type. If there is a workaround, people would prefer it, just as many non it people work with the mouse. I'm guessing this to be a similar product(and a similar success (like a mouse)), although I'm not sure how good the product would be. But one thing we could be sure of is that there is a market for an alterna

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by toQDuj ( 806112 )
      Yes, this was my thought exactly: "Hang on, didn't Apple patent this already?"

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by suv4x4 ( 956391 )
      So basically let's bash Toshiba and Microsoft from trying to make an actual implementation of some obvious vagueness Apple patented.
      The basic idea is so obvious, even I came up with it few times when holding a touchscreen portable ("hmmm if the touch was on the back, I could hold it better").

      They should come up with some stronger word than "bias" to describe the typical anti-MS slashdot post. I bet my money that you wouldn't spin it like this if Toshiba worked on this alone. Pathetic.

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by blhack ( 921171 ) *
        Yeah, and i thought of the same thing like 10 years ago when i was driving. "Hrm, if i put a keyboard on the back of my steering wheel, and turned it sideways, i could type without letting go of the wheel!"

        I call lemming law on you, oh mac fanboi!

    • Re:MS still copying apple (Score:4, Insightful)

      by wjsteele ( 255130 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @06:13AM (#20950995)
      Actually, there is a big difference between the two. The Apple device simply implements the touch surface on the back of the computer. The Microsoft device does it on both sides AND, most importantly, has the ability to track the location of the fingers on the back and display them on the front, so the user get's good feedback as to where his fingers are actually in relation to the device.

      The Apple device doesn't do anything like that.

      Bill

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by MojoStan ( 776183 )
      According to Mitsubishi's page on this project [merl.com]:
      • "As a two-sided touch screen, the LucidTouch is a direct extension of our two-sided touch table, published previously as Under the Table Interaction (reference below).
        ...[snip]...
        Publications:
        Wigdor, D.; Leigh, D.; Forlines, C.; Shipman, S.; Barnwell, J.; Balakrishnan, R.; Shen, C., "Under the Table Interaction", ACM Symposium on User Interface Software and Technology (UIST), ISBN: 1-59593-313-1, pp. 259-268, October 2006 (ACM Press [acm.org], TR2006-076 [merl.com])"

      Micros

  • It corrently works by having a camera sitting behind it and viewing the fingers as they move. If they build the camera into the device it would have to have a very wide angle and be able to distinguish between the fingers and the background.
    • I wonder if they can use something else... Like heat sensors placed inside the back cover. It would be hard to get the kind of resolution they showed in the video though.
    • You don't need camera optics for this application, since you are not interested in objects that are far away anyhow. Just sprinkle the backside of the device with a hundred or so individual photodiodes, and you get a (low res, but good enough) idea of where the fingers are (the resolution may seem low, but it will be enough if you make use of anatomical properties such as there are 4 fingers on each side, and their shadows extend more or less in a straight line from the boundaries).

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kalewa ( 561267 )
      That would be utterly retarded. I'm sure the eventual plan is to just use heat/proximity sensors on the back. The prototype in the video hardly even counts as "innovation" hardware-wise. It's just something they slapped together to use as a test platform for the software. And Apple may have a patent on it, but I don't see them actually producing anything. So I think Microsoft wins here, in regards to exposure to the public.
    • Two Cameras... or Four. Stereoscopic vision can easily distinguish fingers from the background. Four cameras would help it even better, which would allow for more random placement of the fingers (or hands.)

      The field of view for the cameras can easily be widened with a simple fish eye lens.

      Bill
  • Pens also obscure the paper that you're writing on. I'm used to that. I like that. I'd rather look at my obscuring hands than some pseudo-transparent shadow of them. This seems like another case of "we developed something neat, now lets make up reasons to use it."
    • I don't know about you, but I tend to angle my paper so that my pen is obscuring my view as little as possible. I'm right-handed, and when I write I have the paper tilted far to the left (sometimes almost horizontal, but I think I'm weird) and my hand is moving away from me so that whatever I've just written is constantly being uncovered. (And besides that, the pen tip is much thinner than my actual fingers, which are hovering a couple inches above the page and thus further out of the way of the word I just
      • I'm right handed too, but my writing is usually from right to left. That means two things:
        1) I cannot stand pens that smear.
        2) What I've written is obscured, but the space that I intend to write into is not.

        But really, since when has the obstruction of the paper/touchscreen ever been an issue? In addition to dead trees, I use a Dell x50v handheld. I use it a _lot_. I've never felt that I'm obscuring the screen with my nice fat Ph.D stylus. I place it where I want to write/drag/whatever, and remove it wh

  • This looks promising (Score:5, Funny)

    by black_lbi ( 1107229 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @04:13AM (#20950537)
    Accordion Hero anyone?

  • Interesting idea but... (Score:3, Funny)

    by squoozer ( 730327 ) on Friday October 12, 2007 @04:29AM (#20950589)
    It's an interesting idea there is no doubt about that. I really liked the map browsing right up to the point where I noticed the zooming in action looked a lot like he was trying to reproduce goatse with the map. The device will never been the same for me.
    • Speaking of the maps. Did anyone else notice it looked like Google Maps... on an MS co-funded/developed device? Don't tell Ballmer. I think enough innocent chairs have been sacrificed.
  • All that to get accuracy of what you are pointing at. A redesign of the Graphical User Interface would have sufficed. What would have been great is if the interface was really translucent, like the headsup displays they have been playing around in car windshields for years.

  • The only things I want from a mobile device's physical interface are: Clamshell format, a full QWERTY (or preferably Dvorak) matrix/block keyboard (with the keys exactly under one another), and a pointing trackball-style device. A touchscreen with a stylus is an optional advantage, as well as an interface for easy scrolling (and if the device is x86, in which case I will surely change the OS, it should have three mouse buttons as well, left, middle, and right, as the middle button is useful in GNU/Linux).

  • taking /. trolls to new levels.....no thanks
  • Really, touch screens are cool and all that, but also have some disadvantages [thebestpag...iverse.net], as this page will tell you.
  • ...this thing is far from an iPhone killer. For one, it is still vapourware and would be at least a year or two before it could get to market. They still have A LOT of work to do. For example, the product needs a much faster CPU and/or image processor - the demo shadow fingers look extremely laggy, to a point that it would not be usable because I would have no idea where my fingers actually where when doing something quick like typing.
  • Or does that demo video seem rather goatse-esque?
  • When you move your finger to the left, I mean stage left, your virtual finger will move to the right... that is, virtual right... so if you're right-handed, it will be wrong. I suppose it will work OK for left-handed people, though. Could you turn it upside-down? But then when you move your finger upwards, the virtual finger will move downwards!

    Wait, wait, that's wrong. If you turn it upside down you'll be touching the front of the screen instead of the back. The orientation will be correct, but you won't b
  • You had me at transparent rear touch interface ..
  • Finally a way to reliably control my hand held device with no pants on ;)
  • I always wondered how we'd get to the UI William Gibson described in _Neuromancer_, where Case had goggles and his hands buried inside some touch interface he couldn't directly see.

    Now we're finally stepping off the old "see your fingers" path, and into a future where the eye/hand feedback is mediated by the machine.

    When this new device ships with a 3D network dogfight game, we'll have arrived.
  • This could be the perfect platform for implementing touch feedback. Like a memory plastic which deforms from flat into small bumps and ridges under small voltage changes. UI can feedback directly to the fingertips, much like a keyboard, better than a touchpad, much better than a mouse, and entirely better than just a cursor on a screen.

    The problem with those bumps is that they are hard to make optically transparent, or to mount on a graphic display at all without being counterproductively distracting. But i
  • Why not just put a giant trackpad on the back side of the unit?

    Have it divided into 'key-like' segments that conduct uniformly, but have a unique 'keyboard' mode?

    HP put out a PDA for a short time that had a super high-res, mini trackpad on it. There were little nubs to define "buttons" for Home, Calendar, etc. Move these nubs to the back of the device, define a home row, and implement a 'soft keyboard' button?

    You'd effectively be holding a mini-Optimus keyboard with one giant LCD vs. lots of mini OLEDs, a

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