Vista Media Center Plus CableCard Equals No TV

notthatwillsmith writes "ATI's internal CableCard readers are finally available, and Maximum PC got hands-on time with a couple of Vista-powered systems built using the FCC-mandated technology. The short version? It doesn't work. From the article: 'The tech told me he'd receive training direct from Microsoft, but none of it covered internal tuners. We both agreed that the process should be the same, since the only difference is that the slots are inside the case, versus in an external box. The tech then proceeds to install the CableCards, connect the tuners to coax line, fire up the PC, and begin the software configuration. This step involves activating the TV Wonder with a product-activation code, and calling the Comcast office to exchange some information. We should have had a picture at this point, but we didn't.'"

summing it all up....

The short version? It doesn't work. The long version? It still doesn't work.

Re:summing it all up....

Actually, by testing the cards before taking them to the field, they got married to the test hardware and could no longer be married to the device in the field. Either they needed to divorce the cards (through some deep secret kung fu no customer should ever know how to do) or get new cards that are still bachelors.

So this product test was invalid and says nothing about the machines being tested, only the cable company tech who screwed it up before driving out.

Hilarious!

Computer Industry is held hostage by the Cable Com

Article detailing how the cable companies are using a device called Cable-CARD to prevent you from recording HD TV shows to your computer. http://www.microsoftisawesome.com/2007/05/rouges-d o-it-from-behind.html [microsoftisawesome.com]

Re:Not Exactly

No, the grandparent has it right, it's more or less a structured denial system. Instead of using an open standard for security black boxes are used that still must be rented from the cable co (when the whole point was to prevent the cable co's from forcing customer rentals), and a cable co organization gets to decide who can be approved to use the black box (hint: open source systems need not even bother to apply), only to set the requirements so high that making the whole system work is damn near impossible.

This is all about denying the customer the ability to watch TV through anything other than a cable co device, it's just paying lip service to the law so that they're not obviously in violation of it. This will only get worse too once switched video gets deployed.

Re:Computer Industry is held hostage by the Cable

They have gone to great lengths to prevent direct digital stream ripping of "premium" content. There are a number of ways to get a direct stream of non-premium content.

You could get an HDHomeRun. These are very nice little boxes that output a direct stream via ethernet. They can recieve both digital cable, and over-the-air digital broadcasts. They cannot decrypt premium content.

Another avenue of getting a direct stream is firewire. Your cable company can give you (FCC mandated!) a cable box that outputs the digital stream to your pc via firewire. You can normally even use this interface to change channels. Of course, when watching any premium content, firewire is disabled.

There are CableCard TV tuners for PC's as mentioned in this article. They can both receive AND decrypt digital cable. They will not work in anything but Vista (if at all), and the software is designed to allow you to view, but not record premium digital content.

So, you can upgrade to a digital tuner, and rip the streams directly to your HD, but you are not going to be able to record much that makes it worthwhile (Unless you're a sports fan). The best bet for getting ALL channels on your PC is still the analog hole. Yes, you're stuck re-encoding the video, but most capture cards do a great job of this. HD can be a bit tough to do, but it can be done.

As far as changing channels on your cable box, google up "IR blaster". Allows your PC to be a universal remote control.

Way too expensive

I realize that there's a lot more to a media center pc than Tivo, but come on now.

You can pick up a TV for a couple of hundred bucks, or build a Myth system that works for less than half the cost of an equivalent media center pc, without getting so locked into a single vendor for any service.

Having a cable card inside your system is nice, but is it really worth all that extra money? I don't think so.

Crappy summary

Why doesn't it work? DRM? Unimplemented (Vista is still a young OS)? User stupidity?

Assuming it's the first, then maybe we have something to talk about here (though not something too interesting, considering that between Youtube and Joost the writing is on the wall for cable TV).

Microsoft, obviously

The first assumption any right-thinking person should make with a software product interfacing with a new hardware product is that the software product is always at fault when it comes from Microsoft.

As associated axiom is that when ever anything fails, it is Microsoft's fault. For example, when a PC fails to respond to user input it is due to a problem with Microsoft software. When the secretary plugs the computer back in and the problem disappears, it must have been Microsoft that unplugged it. Obvious to all but the Microsoft-indoctrinated losers.

Could it be that this product was pushed out the door without sufficient testing with different cable cards, cable systems and all the silly things that cable companies are doing just to be different? Naa. Has to be Microsoft.

Yes, Microsoft Again. You can't polish this turd.

Could it be that this product was pushed out the door without sufficient testing with different cable cards, cable systems and all the silly things that cable companies are doing just to be different? Naa. Has to be Microsoft.

It WAS NOT THE CARDS. They were tested before they left the shop and tested AOK.

Did you read the fine hands free phone conversation between the M$ tech and the cable guy? We can count the ways they lie to everyone. First, they sent a ringer - an experienced tech with inside contacts at M$ but they forgot to tell that inside contact in advance. Let's quote the fun that follows:

MSG: Oh.... Sh*t, theyre supposed to tell us before they send those things out to the press

Translation: We lie to reviewers and send them out special equipment so that everyone gets a more favorable impression than they will if they actually buy the product.

MSG: [Still unaware hes on a speakerphone] Yeah, those are really tricky. But dont tell the guy that, or hell write it up. Youre gonna start seeing Dells like that come through your system like crazy.

Translation: They don't work but we are going to sell them anyway. The first tech wisely wants nothing further to do with this call and pushes it up to a second, who was not there, and third person you and I would never get to talk to, even if we spend $7,000 on a maximum rippoff, hi-death Tivo. The embarrassment mounts as two of them sit broken.

Microsoft Guy No. 2: Its probably your CableCards. Those can be flakey.

CT: Yeah, I know that. Thats why I tested them before I went out on this call. The cards worked back at my office, but they wont work here.

Things only go downhill from there. One of the cards had been "qualified" by the beast but neither worked. The tech devolves into typing "Microsoft-proprietary information" on a command line, a command so complex it had to be emailed but could not be shared with customer. After four hours, the tech gives up. The next day does not go much better.

Still, this represents a best case scenerio. How many of us will get a M$ or vendor Product Manager's email to make this thing work?

An bonus funny was the secret command:

c:/windows/ehome/ehribjob.exe \OCURNregister
Is this guy a Linux user or what?

Oh how I love Vista and digital restrictions. It does not get any worse than this.

Cue Nelson

"Ha Ha"

Getting down with the VCPs for the DRM message

[With deepest apologies to the Black Eyed Peas for the parody of "Lets get Retarded"]

Vista Retarded is here Sung by the V.C.P.s
[voiceover] The Vista Content Protection specification could very well constitute the longest suicide note in history [auckland.ac.nz].

Vista "Retarded", is here...

And content not playin' playin', not playin' playin',not playin' playin',not playin' playin', not
playin' playin', not playin' playin',not playin' playin',not playin' playin', not...

In this context,Vista disrespects, so when I click to play, the display disconnects.
We got find methods for us to reconnect to new codecs by the network effect.
Bout to lose your fair use. Microsoft's institution. Infect your computer with D.R.M. pollution.
Cause when we click on, the sound is gonna be down. You won't believe how we ow shout out.
Burn can't cause we locked out, Sample can't cause we locked out, act up from north,west, east south.

[Chorus:]
Everybody (ye-a!), everybody (ye-a!), let's get into it (Yea!).
Get stoopid (click on!).
Vista retarded (click on!), Vista retarded (click on!), get retarded.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Yeah.

Lose control, of privacy and goals.
Won't run too fast cause, bloat makes it slow.
Won't get away, your locked into it.
Y'all hear about it, Gutmann'll do it.
Get Vista, be stoopid.
Don't worry 'bout it, Ballmer'll walk you though it,
Step by step, you'll be restricted
Patch by patch with the new solution.
Transmit bits, with D.R.M. pollution
Claim the contents irresistible and that's how they move it.

[Chorus:]
Everybody (ye-a!), everybody (ye-a!), let's get into it (Yea!).
Get stoopid (click on!).
Vista retarded (click on!), Vista retarded (click on!), get retarded.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Yeah.

Playin' playin', not playin' playin',not playin' playin',not playin' playin', not...

C'mon y'all, let's get Do-do! (uh huh) -- Let's get Do-do! (in here)
Right now get Do-do! (uh huh) -- Let's get Do-do! (in here)
Right now get Do-do! (uh huh) -- Let's get Do-do! (in here) Ow, ow, ow!
Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya...

Let's get ill, that's the deal
At the gate, Microsoft restricts your will. (Just)
Lose your mind this is the time,
Y'all test this will, Just and download still. (Just)
Rob the resolution, from your monitor or to your speakers.
Get pixel-ated and suck.
Yo' movies past slow-mo' in another head trip.(So)
Locked in now cannot correct it, so be ig'nant and left apoplectic .

[Chorus:]
(yeah)Everybody, (yeah) everybody, (yeah) get locked into it.
(yeah) Get stupid.
(click on) Get retarded,(click on) get retarded (yeah), get retarded.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Vista retarded (ha), Vista retarded is here.
Whoaoa
Yeah.

You Cukoo! (A-ha!) -- It's Po-Po! (is here)
Be a Fool! (A-ha!) -- M.S. Tool! (be their)
Like Voodoo! (A-ha!) -- You cukoo! (out here)
Ow, ow!
Ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya, ya...

Playin' playin', not playin' playin',not playin' playin',not playin' playin'
[fade]

Digital Cable on MCE - HDHomeRun

With the HDHomeRun you can watch/record the unencrypted channels on digital cable:
http://www.silicondust.com/wiki/products/hdhomerun [silicondust.com]

Two tuners and plugs into your Ethernet network. You can watch content from any computer on your network.

Works with MCE 2005 and Vista MCE - both 32 and 64-bit versions.
Works with SageTV, BeyondTV, etc.
Works with MythTV under Linux.
Mac support is rumored to be coming soon.

Linux review:
http://servers.linux.com/servers/07/04/18/1531247. shtml?tid=117&tid=39 [linux.com]

Forgot to pay my cable bill.....

It works fine now, sorry

Cablecard is broken

In every cable card article i have seen, vista, tivo3, tv's, etc the cable cards never work. The cable companies are intentionally making this a broken technology. Its not vista's fault at all.

Product-activation code?

Just so i can watch tv? Ya, isnt technology grand.

Official Statement From Microsoft

The problems with these systems have nothing to do with the consumer-experience-enhancing DRM software installed in Vista. We will sue anybody who says otherwise.

To be fair it's probably the cable card(s)

Cable cards are horribly problematic. They were forced upon the cable companies and if you need one it means you're not renting equipment from the cable company. They really don't give a shit if it's a pain in your ass, because it lets them say "well, our cable-box/DVR/whatever never has these problems".

In three months, I've had 5 or 6 different cable cards in my Series 3 Tivo. Only one has worked the whole time (it's got a dual-tuner, so it needs two). Some never worked at all; others refused to unlock the premium channels I'm paying for; still others have been fine for a few weeks then suddenly stopped working.

For once I'm willing to give MS the benefit of the doubt and assume that the problem is Comcast and the crappy cable cards their cartel has concocted.

Cablecards and Tivo S3 Working Fairly Well

I've had very few problems with two Cablecards in my Tivo Series 3. The one time a Tivo upgrade caused a problem, I called Comcast and they sent the appropriate signals down the wire to re-enable the cards again. I'm not a big fan of Comcast, but in my area, they've been handling Cablecards very well.

The long version...

It doesn't work at all.

Sounds exactly like my experience with Cable Card

I bought a Cable Card-ready Sony TV a few years ago with the idea that I would rent a Cable Card from Time Warner Cable so I could watch HD channels. Once the Time Warner Cable installation tech got the Cable Card working in my TV, he bolted out the door. About six hours later, the picture turned black and I could no longer receive encrypted channels. When I called Time Warner Cable's support, the support person first sent a "reset" to my TV but that didn't work. Then I was advised to turn the TV off and then unplug the set from the power outlet for ten minutes. That didn't fix the problem.

I had Time Warner Cables techs come to my house a few more times with replacement Cable Cards but they could never resolve the problem. They gave up and blamed the problem on my TV. They said the TV needed a firmware upgrade (I didn't even know my TV had upgradeable firmware!). I contacted a local home theater company and they sent one of their techs to my house to upgrade my TV's firmware.

After that upgrade, Time Warner Cable tried again but could not get the Cable Card to work. The TWC person at my house was on the phone with someone at the "head end" trying to get advice on how to fix this problem. Despite digging through some very cool diagnostic screens on my TV and trying every option available, Time Warner Cable never did the Cable Card to work in my TV.

I gave up and called TWC to let them know I would be bringing their card back.

For all of its hype, Cable Card definitely sucked donkey balls. I have a very nice Sony HD set that is supposedly "Cable Card ready" but the Cable Card just didn't work reliably. It's too bad. The time that I did get to watch channels like Discovery HD was very cool.

That was a couple of summers ago. I haven't had the time to see if TWC here in Milwaukee has figured-out the mysteries of the Cable Card.

Analog hole...

It looks like for not too much money you could make a box that can record 1080i/720p via component cables and solve this whole problem. At least until analog is completely outlawed.

Hardware issues, conspiracy?

MIA covered this problem from a different angle. Rouges do it from behind. [microsoftisawesome.com]

Time for a new kind of PVR

With the recent improvements to graphics cards, computers have now got enough power for the next level of PVR to become possible.
I refer of course to Personal Video Rendering, ie locally generated real-time TV. Even modest AI can handle the retarded talk shows and formulaic sycophantic interviews.

Just imagine: you can watch computer generated random pointless drivel such as 'my boyfriend left me for a transexual limbo dancer and now i am marrying his mother' with 5.1 surround whooping and hollering from the audience for as long as you like (with artificial repetitive and annoying 'advertisement' breaks, of course), then decide to watch a blu-ray hd film. The software would automatically flip to rendering 20 minutes of a sports game, followed by 30 minutes of tedious analysis by virtual sports presenters before showing the film. Artificially intelligent filtering would then cut many of the scenes and redub profane dialog no matter what time it was being watched. Monitoring daemons would flag the kind of shows that you like to watch and then 'cancel' them.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

The content lords must be proud!

I'll bet they feel VERY happy with themselves now that their content is so well protected that no one can use it.

Microsoft / Cable / CableCard..

blame them all. They're all out to give you fewer options.

1. Microsoft has drunk this DTV Cool-aid in the hope that this legally sanctioned lockout will finally bury any OS competition, well at least in the living room (they're right. No DTV means everyone else is pushed out)

2. Cable operators want to run your living room like cell carriers want to own your phones. If there's profit to be had, they want it to flow through their pockets or nobody else's. So even if this media PC thing flops, they're not out at all since 'most people' will just overpay for the vendor lock-in machines overprices since they're the only show in town.

My personal story of this issue

I like to think that I LOVE media and I'm probably a nice juicy target for such gadgetry. I've got hundreds of DVD's (legal) and I appreciate spending my money on what I like.

I live up in BC where the sole cable-co is Shaw. I was introduced to Digital TV a few years back when they rented out the boxes for pretty cheap (this was before HD content so the box didn't support it). A couple years later I start seeing that they were going to be broadcasting HD content. I was like: Wow, thats great. I could get an HTPC to do some DVR and the world will be my oyster. How poorly things turn out.

As it turned out, there weren't too many options for me after all. There was a $450 HD receiver that has firewire, but since practically HD all channels have nocopy, I couldn't actually use it as a part of a HDPC/DVR. For $450 it would cost too much to simply watch maybe 10 HD channels. They also released a DVR version of the system. $750. F* you, everyone one of you. I refuse to pay that much for a piece of equipment that can't interoperate with anything or even choose competing product. You get Shaw branded Motorola's or shaw branded Motorola's Wow. thanks, but no thanks.

So after really really wanting to break down and pay the outrageous price just for the tuners (ignoring for the moment how much the actual content would cost), I just decided to drop the whole cable TV thing all together. Instead, for the shrinking number of shows I actually want to watch, I download them illegally. Thanks to all your greed, you've forced me to become a white collar criminal. Bastards!

The CLI is NOT WRONG

To everyone who complains about the command being in the wrong syntax (C:/ehome/ versus C:\ehome\)

Go to your command line. Start>Run>CMD

> cd \

> cd /windows/system32

See where you end up.

Now, try

> c:/windows/system32/dxdiag.exe

Windows CLI takes paths in both formats.

Hardware Question

Perhaps someone out there can answer this for me, but what is to stop some company in China, or Europe, or somewhere else where US laws apply in name only (i.e. there is some trade agreement or treaty on 'intellectual property' but the foreign producers simply ignore it when it is inconvenient) from producing and selling third party hardware which does not recognize a 'broadcast flag' or any other junk that the government and the cable monopoly lobbyists come up with?

It's not Microsoft's fault!

Or ATI's. It's the cable company. I'd bet quite a large sum of money on that statement.

Go read some Tivo forums that cover the Series 3 unit. There is story after story after story about the nightmare of getting cablecards installed and configured properly.

Cablecards are standardized. The device itself (provided it is compliant with the CableLabs standard (which it MUST BE to be certified)) is irrelevant. All the installer needs to do is know how to bring up the cablecard info screen and speak enough English to read a few numbers to a person at the other end of the phone. The person on the other end of the phone needs to enter those numbers correctly and provision the card properly. (Meaning they have to enter the card's ID number properly, enter the device's ID number correctly, and authorize that matched pair to access whatever content the subscriber is allowed to view.)

It doesn't matter if the device is a television, set-top box, DVR, computer, etc. Totally irrelevant. The only unique part of this process is getting the device ID from the subscriber's device. That is all the specialized training an "installer" needs to accomplish the installation. The person entering this information on the other end of the line doesn't even need that tiny little bit of specialized training. They're doing money-work. Enter the numbers, assign the content privileges, click ok.

It's astonishing how many ways the cable company can find to fuck (can I say fuck here?) up this simple process.

Why wouldn't they train their people properly? Simple. They can get $2-3/month for a cablecard rental. They get $10-15/month for a DVR or STB. While, technically, they do support cablecards (as required by FCC mandate), they intentionally make the process as painful as possible so people will give up on cablecards and tell their friends how horrible cablecards are. "Never buy anything that uses a cablecard. They don't work."

English as a second language

It is a well written piece. I particularly like:

"ATI had to restrict the availability of OCUR cards (now known as the TV Wonder Digital Cable Tuner) to OEM PC manufacturers."

Nah - too wordy. Let's tighten that baby up a bit.

"ATI restricted OCURs ( aka: TVWDCTs) to OEM PCMs."

Ah - now it's readable!

Like strapping wings on and jumping off a cliff

Ugly, ugly technology.

Buggy OS + Buddy Drivers = Never works

Its probably a combination between how buggy Windows MCE(like all MS products but MCE is at ME level) and that ATI couldn't write stable drivers if there life depended on it(o wait it does and thats why the enthusiast market is all NVIDIA). Once pcHDTV releases a card with CableCard support I bet it will work flawlessly and be very simple to setup.

Good thing I own a TiVo S3

Glad I didn't waste my time and money buying a paperweight (ie. Microsoft Media Center) since I enjoy watching HD/digital cable with my TiVo S3 via 2 totally functional CableCards (functional from the moment they were installed 7 months ago, no glitches, no BSOD's, no viruses, no spyware, no worms). Heck, my S3 has Linux inside so you know it's going to rock. With TiVo's current $200 rebate you can own one too-- and you really should.

Deathbed

Its time the cable companies share-holders sat up and took notice. I'm already downloading and watching HDTV content using my XBox 360 (again, VGA cable, no HDCP), and I'm looking into how to do the same on my PC. In fact I'm getting pretty close to just killing off all my TV and just using the cable for its cable modem. And if they start throttling it, I'll switch to DSL, or hell, my cell phone gets about 1Mb.

I am exactly their target market, but they are actively driving me to their competitors. What the hell happened to this country?

Simple solution

The problem (that a few people have realized) is that the technician tested the cards first. Because of this operation they were inseperably paired with the device used to test them.

Without knowing that and resetting this pairing nothing that could be done would force the cards to work in the PC. It has nothing to do with the new hardware, the operating system or anything else. Simple matter is these are complex devices interfacing with even more complex systems. And the supposedly knowledgeable technician didn't understand this restriction.

Unfortunately, the article makes it appear that the technician was knowlegeable and should have been able to solve the problem. In reality the inexperienced technican created the problem and insured the installation would fail by testing the cards.

Don't be silly.

Technicians can test cards all the want before bringing them to the customer site.
The bonding actually occurs at the head end, not in the card.
They have to call up and give the head end reps the device ID and card ID so that the system can start transmitting the correct key stream with which the card will be able to decrypt and use to get at the symmetric content keys.

The cards themselves can be tested in a sandbox environment where the technician can control the encryption process, registration in the sandbox, and then verify the decryption.

Comcast: Re-Learn from your 'short' history

Failed business models are dime-a-dozen and taught at business grad schools, specifically course MANU555 (Designing Flexible High-Tech Consumer Product).

Basic Tenets:

      Rigid product = High Returns.

      Failed Head-Ends = Massive Modem Recall

      DRM = Excessive Customer Support = Loss of Interest

No kidding. Some COMCAST/MS product research department personnel needs to go back to school. We, Slashdotter, would have design this better.

The joys of speakerphone

I especially liked the transcription of the phone calls...

CT: Both these machines have internal OCUR cards, too; I've never worked with the internal cards before.

MSG: [Still unaware he's on a speakerphone] Yeah, those are really tricky. But don't tell the guy that, or he'll write it up. You're gonna start seeing Dells like that come through your system like crazy.

and

c:/windows/ehome/ehribjob.exe \OCURNregister

Remember, that's Microsoft-proprietary!

Next month cable card has to work

According to this article [yahoo.com] the cable companies have to make cable cards work, because starting July 1st all new cable boxes they give to customers have to use the same cable cards to decode video that they give out for uses like this.

A crass joke

c:/windows/ehome/ehribjob.exe \OCURNregister

When I first read this, I thought someone was making a joke.

What does that stand for? "E-Home Return on Investment 'bjob?'"

Is corporate fellatio now a command line process?

--
Toro

/Worthy?

Someone's computer doesn't work right-
How is this news?

Microsoft-proprietary information ..

"Now, type this command in"

'c:/windows/ehome/ehribjob.exe \OCURNregister'

"MSG2: I can't send this to the customer! This is Microsoft-proprietary information. Don't you have an email account?"

forward slashes work fine

Wow, this guy was working really hard to make MS look bad:

>Now anyone who's ever typed a DOS command will immediately realize that this
>command isn't going to work-the cable tech certainly did-because Microsoft Guy
>Number 2 has used forward slashes

Meanwhile using forward slashes works perfectly fine in the Vista command prompt for me.

Re:Stop the presses!

OK, how is this modded insightful? Troll, Funny, Flame, Redundant? Maybe. Insightful? C'mon

Re:Stop the presses!

It isnt supposed too lol, thats half the point of the damned thing ...

Re:Stop the presses!

When Microsoft heard about Apple's "there is no step three!" strapline, they emulated it in the only way they knew how...

Re:Stop the presses!

Wait, something in Windows ... gasp ... doesnt work!?!

I know this was intended to just be a funny dig (if you define "bash microsoft" as "hysterically funny", of course), but I have a hell of a lot more success installing binary software in Windows that "just works" than Linux, which regularly suffers from Library Hell.

Re:Just Follow The Money:

I'm glad you posted this here. The link between Windows Vista Media Center Edition, the ATi TV Wonder card, and Saudi Prince Bandar bin Sultan has gone unremarked for far too long.

Re:Think of the children!

I guess it is true. Never...and I mean NEVER buy anything from Micro$oft that is version 1.0.

Remove "from Microsoft" from that sentence. It rarely matters who it is, there will be problems.

With Passion Please.

Say it ain't so!

You need to say that with $7,000 worth of passion and conviction. The reviewer was sitting on d=\$14,000.00/=b but few fanboys are going to buy two of these things.