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KisMAC Developer Discontinues Project

Posted by kdawson on Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:49 AM
from the when-security-tools-are-outlawed dept.
Wireless Networking Businesses Networking (Apple) Security Hardware Apple
mgv writes to let us know that the lead developer of KisMAC, a passive wireless network discovery tool for Mac OS X, is discontinuing the project. Michael Rossberg lives in Germany and that country has recently passed laws that would make his participation dangerous. He urges visitors to take a copy of KisMAC and its source as long as the site is up, so that development might be continued outside the US or EU. From the website: "There has not been a lot of time for KisMAC lately. However the motivation for this drastic step [lies] somewhere different. German laws change and are being adapted for 'better' protection against something politicians obviously do not understand. It will become illegal to develop, use or even posses KisMAC in this banana republic [i.e., Germany]."
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  • Because of its vagueness, this yet to be commenced, but already passed law is a severe threat to the German security community! Experts of different interest groups have repeatedly expressed their serious concerns, but the politicans - naturally knowing better than any expert can - decided otherwise. For more information, please visit: http://www.phenoelit.de/202/202.html [phenoelit.de]

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by dballanc (100332)
      The ignorant Arrogance of politicans in general. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but the only thing the politicians really seem care about is making sure it's also a toll road.

  • What bothers me (i've never heard about this software before) is the trend for western countries to move away from individual freedom. I live in Australia, it is happening here - the doctor that was held without charge for 3 weeks [sciencedaily.com]. I know it's happening in the US, but now it seems to be happening in other western countries too. Are there any western countries whose citizens aren't losing their individual freedoms?

    At least we are having an inquiry into the matter [news.com.au]. How is it in other countries?

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by keeboo (724305)
      Are there any western countries whose citizens aren't losing their individual freedoms?

      Well.. It's not happening in Brazil.
      I guess the politicians here are too busy counting their money.

  • Doesnt work in all Macs (Score:3, Informative)

    by bananaendian (928499) on Sunday July 29 2007, @02:00AM (#20029975) Homepage Journal

    He urges visitors to take a copy of KisMAC and its source as long as the site is up, so that development might be continued outside the US or EU
    FYI: KisMAC doesn't work in passive mode in the latest ibooks with Atheros AR5008 chipset.

    • FYI: KisMAC doesn't work in passive mode in the latest ibooks with Atheros AR5008 chipset.


      I presume you meant macbooks here - it works fine in passive mode with the ibooks, they don't have that chipset. It does work fine with a USB prism chipset 802.11b/g key if you have a macbook.

      Michael

      • Darn submit button! noticed that myself afterwards. I'm aware that on the older Macbooks (pre 2007) it works fine. But Apple has changed the chipset recently to Atheros and all kinds of problems have crept up, airport dropping connection and so on. It's understandable that KisMAC doesn't support it because its completely different chipset and they haven't updated KisMAC's hardware support after 2006.

  • As someone with dual citizienship and.. (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Joe Tie. (567096) on Sunday July 29 2007, @02:47AM (#20030177)
    a family of lawyers, I'd caution anyone tempted to think of this as an Us Vs. Them scenario. This kind of shit happens everywhere, and it's really only by having the protection of the guns of any particular country that you gain any measure of freedom past the average level that the man on the street considers the lowest possible. It sucks, but this is the reality of the situation. You've only got as much freedom as isn't either explicitly protected, or passed by when politicians make their rounds in "protecting" you against harming yourself.
  • Open-source should buy and island and form a new "country". Call it Stallmanland? Stalland? Nah. Needs work.

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Tablizer (95088)
      Come on now, why is it "off-topic"? It is based directly on this statement from the submitter:

      "He urges visitors to take a copy of KisMAC and its source as long as the site is up, so that development might be continued outside the US or EU."

      OSS-friendly laws and practices can be established in a new island country. Security research could also be done without being visited by mean corporate lawyers or the FBI.
                   
    • How about Gnufoundland?
  • Quote: "German laws change and are being adapted for 'better' protection against something politicians obviously do not understand. It will become illegal to develop, use, or even possess KisMAC in this banana republic [i.e., Germany]."

    It's amazing when someone calls his own country a "banana republic".

    Managers who were older than 20 when the personal computer revolution began have seldom bothered to learn about the new technology. I guess we will just have to wait until the old dinosaurs retire.
      • Part of being a good manager is that you directly manage only stuff you understand.

        So if the owner of the company you work for has hired a competent CIO and lets him do his job, that is perfectly OK. In my experience, those who are halfway tech-savvy and start micromanaging things cause a lot more problems.
  • The irony of the situation is that the German government actively sponsors [nth-dimension.org.uk] work on security tools such as GPG [bsi.bund.de], OpenVAS [openvas.org], BOSS [bsi.bund.de].

    • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

      by Anonymous Coward
      ... Kismac doesn't break into Apples, it lets Apples passively monitor networks and has some basic attack functionality integrated. Your post might be [vaguely] on topic if this was a discussion about an Apple firewall, but for a passive wireless network stumbler? I don't think so...

        • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

          by eiapoce (1049910)
          Sirs,

          Eventually you are missing the point. KisMac is a tool that can discover APs and Point to Point wireless network, Crack WEP, Crack WAP (given a dictionary) and make Injection Attacks with selected hardware (prism cards mostly). So it's just not a purely listening software neither limited to only apple basestations (Airport).

          So long the problem is that Germany choose to make illegal tampering with telecomunications, which could be good, but eventually forgot to leave a exception of fair use for research
    • So what does it take to be a "professional"?

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by AntiNazi (844331)
      Because if you put the book at the back of the shelf no one will ever find it?

    • Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.


      Well, I have used it a bit, and I'm no professional. But having shown people how quickly their encryption fails is a good thing.

      At the end of the day, your comment is one of security through obscurity.

      Kismac doesn't hack the unhackable, it can however open up access points that are much less secure than their owners think, mostly due to failures by the vendors to use proper algorithms. Why this should bother you is unclear to me.

      At the end of the day, the vendors are more likely to change their hardware if this sort of tool is widely available. If it was kept obscure, most hardware vendors would never patch their access points.

      I've used it alot, but never actually hacked into anyone's computer by using it.

      Its likely to be forked anyway and exist on in another country...

      Michael (as the original poster of the article).

        • Also, nice sig. Isn't that a Schneier quote? I could've sworn I've seen it before... and it's been a while since I read Applied Crytography.

          I rather liked it :)

          I'm not sure where it comes from - I don't think its a Schneier quote and I've had a quick search on google & wikiquote to try and find the reference - I can't.

          Someone posted this on /. and it met the essential criteria - I liked it more than my previous .sig - It describes the futility of DRM better than anything else I could say...

          Michael

    • Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.

      You're entitled to your opinion. As stupid as it is, you have the right to hold it. Allegedly, Lenin had a name for people like you. [wikipedia.org]

      NTITE
    • Hey don't be so hard on the parent, maybe he just talks like Wallace.

      It's a cracking tool! More cheese Grommet!

    • Free speech is fine but I don't agree with having this tool available to non-professionals in a nice easily installed package.
      You're right. Only professionals should have tools like this. If you're going to have this tool, you better be using it to lift credit card information from unsecured Point of Sale networks.

    • Good! Now we can be sure that crackers will never have this, and that only professionals will.

      • Re:Its a cracking tool (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Jah-Wren Ryel (80510) on Sunday July 29 2007, @01:05AM (#20029699)

        Is there even a legitimate use for that?
        To find out if your own network is vulnerable.

        No matter what kind of bullshit laws get put into place to restrict 'cracking tools' - criminals will have them. Legally sticking your head in the sand will not make you any safer. Far better that tools like this are spread far and wide so that countermeasures, or at least recognition of the problems, are also spread far and wide.

        • Re:Its a cracking tool (Score:5, Insightful)

          by OverlordQ (264228) on Sunday July 29 2007, @01:57AM (#20029965) Journal
          No matter what kind of bullshit laws get put into place to restrict 'cracking tools'

          It's not to restrict the tools, it's just so they have more things to accuse you of when you're charged to get something to stick.

          • Re:Its a cracking tool (Score:5, Insightful)

            by timmarhy (659436) on Sunday July 29 2007, @02:11AM (#20030031)
            cool, just what every community needs - more ways to have charges stick when the government takes a dislike to you! assholes.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by angulion (132742)
            To bring in the car analogy, this seems more like making cars and alcohol illegal instead of the act of drunk driving..
            Of course driving and drinking everyone knows, so making them illegal would never even come into question.

      • Re:Its a cracking tool (Score:5, Insightful)

        by bmo (77928) on Sunday July 29 2007, @01:22AM (#20029805)
        "Is there even a legitimate use for that?"

        Under German law, now, even nmap could be considered evil. Tools like this and kismac are mostly used to see if your pants are around your ankles with regards to your network, either home or commercial.

        Why should people with home networks not have this tool available? The German law is stupid and makes everyone a victim while not taking the tools out of the hands of people who will use them anyway for nefarious purposes.

        I can kill people with a hammer, or I can use it to build things. I choose the latter. Should we outlaw hammers because some people illegaly misuse them?

        --
        BMO

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by MichaelSmith (789609)

          I can kill people with a hammer, or I can use it to build things. I choose the latter. Should we outlaw hammers because some people illegaly misuse them?

          Brings to mind the riots in Sydney about a year ago. A sporting goods shop almost sold out of baseball bats in a couple of hours. The manager called the police to ask for a suggested course of action. The cops suggested the store stop selling baseball bats for the time being.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by mgv (198488) *

            Brings to mind the riots in Sydney about a year ago. A sporting goods shop almost sold out of baseball bats in a couple of hours. The manager called the police to ask for a suggested course of action. The cops suggested the store stop selling baseball bats for the time being.

            That is a difficult one. Whilst I think that the problem there is the person, not the bat, sometimes it is worth restricting some actions. I think that even the most pro gun supporter would say there is a limit on selling weapons. Its j

        • Yes, but a politician can understand a hammer. It's heavy, blunt and simple on the whole (no comments on similarity ;) ) where as this new-fangled intarwebs-net-tubes and its associated applications must be dangerous in some way, otherwise children wouldn't be using it.

          Or something like that.

      • Re:Its a cracking tool (Score:4, Insightful)

        by muridae (966931) on Sunday July 29 2007, @02:57AM (#20030205)
        Nmap helped me pick out a flaw in my sister's router. She asked me to figure out why it needed rebooting once a day, nmap showed several open ports, and after hitting one multiple times the router locked. Repeat the experiment, it locks again. Experiment concluded.

        Kismet showed some family members why they needed both wireless encryption and MAC filtering. Telling them I was going to log every IM conversation, and then showing them the logs went a ways towards convincing them that their wireless was not really all that secure. They now know that MAC filtering only keeps out the honest, and WEP only hides their data with a thin layer of gauze, but at least it is their informed choice now.

        Kismet and other wireless scanners have helped me pick out channels for my router based on where they have the least interference. I blame a cranky windows 'wireless assist tool' for picking the strongest AP instead of the one I select, but since it was what I was dealing with I just made the best out of it.

        And yes, wireless scanners have also found me open hotspots to connect to when I am traveling. If the coffee shop leaves it on after hours, how am I supposed to ask for permission anyways?

          • Re:Its a cracking tool (Score:4, Informative)

            by Crayon Kid (700279) on Sunday July 29 2007, @07:43AM (#20031321)

            Just wondering, but what brain-dead IM service allows connections that don't go via SSL?


            Umm, all of the most-used ones? AFAIK, Google Talk is the only one of the popular networks that does it, and that's because it's based on XMPP (Jabber).

            Yahoo, MSN, AIM/ICQ, none of them have encryption. Whenever I find someone using Pidgin/Gaim I can convince them to install a plugin like gaim-encryption, but my buddies who use the official clients are sitting ducks (and me along with them).
      • From the AC:

        Thanks Michael for your support of free speech. I'm really pleased to hear you think it's "fine".

        As there are two Michael's posting here, I'm just guessing you aren't referring to me...

        Why don't people seem to get that making these programs obscure does not make you safer? I for one want to monitor my wireless network to see if they are vulnerable to such "cracking" (goddammit, "cracking" is removing copy protection and has been for two decades!!) tools.

        They tried to shut down nmap in the same

        • To take an extreme position, I do not believe it would be a good idea for the wireless network configuration dialog in gnome to have a text field for the key and right beside it, a button to use network traffic to obtain the key.

          • To take an extreme position, I do not believe it would be a good idea for the wireless network configuration dialog in gnome to have a text field for the key and right beside it, a button to use network traffic to obtain the key.


            Of course not. Done properly, it would automatically fill the key in for you. :)

            Michael

            • You ought to file that as a feature request for both GNOME and KDE.

              (Seriously, why not? It's not as if networks using weak encryption would have actually been secure anyway; this just provides better usability!)

    • Re:Can he continue 'remotely'? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by nukem996 (624036) on Sunday July 29 2007, @01:18AM (#20029783)
      If they wanted to charge him they still would and while he may still win because the program is running on a computer in a different country it still would cost him alot of time, money, and energy that he probably doesn't want to spend.

    • Re:Can he continue 'remotely'? (Score:4, Interesting)

      by kju (327) on Sunday July 29 2007, @10:15AM (#20032117)
      First: If he accesses the server from germany, development will not be considered to happen outside of germany. Second: Won't matter anyway, as german law declares itself to be applicable to what a german does even outside of germany.
    • I think the parent makes a good point.

      What are the linux/windows alternatives to this 'product' anyways?

    • My German friends laughed at me because of my guns.
      "Why would you need that unless you are going to kill someone?" they said.
      "To protect myself from others who have them" I said.
      "Then why don't they make them illegal?" they said.

      Not trying to start an endless gun argument here, but that analogy is flawed. You wouldn't be able to accidentially kill or hurt someone with this piece of software. And while you'd want to keep the program out of your kids' reach (as soon as they're computer literate enough to use it), if they did manage to get their hands on it, they couldn't endanger themselves and others by playing with it the same way they could if they found a gun.

      No matter what you think about gun ownership, the potential consequenc

      • I suppose by your logic you see Iraq as an example of a success, then? A well armed populace sorting out their own problems and fighting off foreign forces, different groups attempting to "retake power"? I assume you defend the rights of the Iraqi people to own their own weapons?

        Seems like a bit of a mess out there to me and that things would be better sorted out by unarmed people talking their way through their problems rather than shooting their way through them. You may remember that revolutions have als

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