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Handhelds Hardware

User Review of OmniSky Wireless service for Palm V 61

Posted by Roblimo from the neat-new-toys dept.
mcc::reba writes "Here is my experience using the new wireless Palm V service from OmniSky. It is a Very Cool Thing."
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User Review of OmniSky Wireless service for Palm V More

User Review of OmniSky Wireless service for Palm V

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  • HOW LAME!
  • OmniSky (www.omnisky.com [omnisky.com]) is merely the network that is used for wireless Palm net access with the particular hardware for the Palm V discussed in this article. Palms do not in fact have built in modems; there are external modems available for the Palm, but the big deal about this technology is that wireless net access is now becoming a feasible thing for the Palm, and there's actually a market for competition between forms of access now. That's a big plus because it will drive prices down and quality up (theoretically... :).
  • I'm not whining, I'm pointing out a statement in the article that is not based on facts but prejudices (in this case, against desktop OS's in general) - BTW, Mr Moderator, that's why my posting is not off-topic. I like Linux, I use it, but I can't stand that biased Linux-is-better-than-the-rest talk - it doesn't do Linux any good. You won't see people like Linus or AC making those kinds of statements. I react the same way when people tell me that nothing else reaches Windows' GUI capabilities - it's just the same thing: flamebait.

  • Re:ooooh I like (Score:4)

    by twilight ( 11986 ) on Wednesday December 29, 1999 @02:10PM (#1434771)
    I have tried to figure out how the Palm VII works for a while now, since I got one for Christmas and I can't return/exchange the thing for a Vx (would be nicer).

    Apparently, it's a cellular modem, probably 9600 baud. That's what people are saying anyway. It's definatly not a full TCP/IP implementation, it uses some propriatary things. This, however, is a GOOD thing here. Although you are limited to using only Palm.Net applications, since they charge you by the kB (ugh), it keeps bandwidth down. Otherwise, loading Slashdot once would consume ALL of your monthly bandwidth (and then some).

    There's also a lot of debate over OmniSky vs. Palm VII. Apparently it boils down to either spending a lot up front (it will be = $50/month) for OmniSky, or spending $10/month + kB usage for Palm.Net.

    Jeff
  • Does anybody know more about this ProxiWare product that ProxiNet has?

    From what I can tell, it's the back end to the ProxiWeb software, but do you need both? ProxiWeb seems to be available seperately.

    Jordan
  • I got my OmniSky today, I'm using it right now and it's great! Between AvantGo and ProxiWeb I can view most web pages...AvantGo is better overall but can't handle frames, refresh, or large pages. One annoyance....web sites that tell me to download either Netscape or IE to view their site. Bozos!
  • Quit your wining. He's just saying that the only other OS that has a stable TCP/IP stack in his experience is Linux. So what?

    It gives an insight into the sort of person the reviewer is, and I personally appreciate that - given that I may participate in OmniSky's program based on his review, its nice to know that the fellow is not your average Windows user, knows a bit about other Operating systems, and could be considered a fellow hacker.

    I was far from being annoyed by hearing that he's had experience with Linux in the TCP/IP stack usage department, and in fact it gave me a reference point for his experiences with the TCP/IP stack under Palm OS. It shows, to a small degree, that he's not just an average user for whom 'problems with the TCP/IP stack' may have been a result of user error.

    Sheesh. Why are you so sensitive to a pro-Linux viewpoint?
  • The Palm VII does not browse the web or run a TCP/IP stack to do is wireless operation. All you can use are a built-in mail app and a good hundred or so (and growing fast) little "web clipping" apps that are basically preloaded web forms for querying URLs that return simple VII-optimized pages.

    It uses a pager network. It's very slow. Service is expensive for the volume you get. You can't surf the web, though you can shop, check various kinds of email, whip up little apps of your own to hit your own servers, trade stocks, etc.

    But it is good and I like my VII very much. Why? Because Palm's decision to use pager technology means it sips batteries. Two AAA cells last a month. And as limited as its net access is, it does what I need, and what most people need. Ever actually used telnet on a Palm? If you want to be cured of wanting it, just try it.

    That said, the OmniSky has the VII beat pretty solidly in most geek regards: you get email notification, the ability to surf the web, telnet, do instant-messaging, etc. But the VII has been dropping in price, and if you like living hassle-free, the legendary Palm battery life can be nice. Fact is, you can get a VII for $450-$480 these days. A Palm V and the OmniSky package is an easy $600, and if you travel much, you're stuck carrying charging paraphenalia.

    Clear enough?
  • To the best of my understanding (and this involves some guessing) ProxiNet "digests" web pages to be viewed on Palms via the ProxiWeb browser (hence the "proxy.") I'm fairly sure that ProxiWare is the prog which handles that digesting.

    Any better/more informed guesses?

  • The "all you can eat" pricing model is a very attractive one - especially with a small market unsure of its needs. I think that it's quite commerically viable. At least it will be until every person and their pet joins - then Omnisky might have to pull an AOL (ie; drop the fixed price plan)

    I find it very attractive - mind you, all I've got to compare it with is the Australian mobile data services at 10cents for 30 seconds for 9600bps, or 20cents for an SMS - ick. (If Omnisky were released down here in Australia, I'd buy all the appropriate bits ragardless of the fact that I'm waiting to see which PalmOS device gets Bluetooth first...)

  • Well as of 10 pm central time their online ordering system is broke... when you try to submit your credit card, it comes back with a 'too many cursors open' error every time...
  • Right, but why does it seem to be offered as a separate service? Does ProxiNet host some ProxiWare servers for users of ProxiWeb, or do you need to have ProxiWare servers of your own?

    Jordan
  • ...and love it! Ive set up a bunch of procmail filters on my main address that will forward me ONLY personal mail from a certain number of people, or if there are certain keywords in the topic.

    All in all, VERY cool...

    -=Bob
  • I placed my order on 12/23. My employer gave me a Palm V last year after I brought the Palm "virus" to campus 3 years ago. Now they're picking up the tab for the OmniSky beta!

    Schweet!
  • ProxiNet hosts at least one such server (I use it right now; you sign up for a free account-- which of course means that they know all of your palm viewing habits) which allows you to use ProxiWeb right away. (Caveat: provided that I'm understanding it right...) it seems that they're offering ProxiWare in an attempt to branch out, so that other folks will be able to affer similar services.

    Why? I haven't the foggiest

  • N.B.: Nota Bene, or "note well." It's used as kind of an obscure alternative to "Just so you know," or "For your information,". I never really liked it myself.

  • Re:Is it really commercially viable? (Score:4)

    by openSoar ( 89599 ) on Wednesday December 29, 1999 @02:36PM (#1434787)
    If you compare the service plans, it's obvious which one to go for:

    • OmniSky - esitmated $50 a month for unlimited bandwidth.
    • Palm VII - $10 a month for 50KB plus $0.20 per extra K

    So a back of an envelope calculation gives us:

    Assuming OmniSky is downloading constantly at 1KB a second (given 19.2Kbit modem) and there are 2.6 million seconds in a month, we could download about 2.5GB of information for your $50. The same amount of bandwidth would cost you (roughly) $520,000 using the Palm VII.

    I know this all ridiculous but it does highlight the potentially huge cost of per/KB metering.

    Now all I want is for OmniSky to make a Springboard module for my Visor :-))

    openSoar

  • > Anybody know how the Palm VII's TCP/IP is?

    Immaterial. The Palm VII isn't _using_ TCP. It's a RAM/Mobitex radio. I don't think the overlying layer 2 protocol is IP, I think it's X.25 or something similar.

    I'm not positive, you understand, but I do know that Mobitex is _not_ an IP network.

    Cheers,
  • I'm glad to see that one company at least has the intellect to price their service (relatively speaking) reasonably. Palm VII's wireless pricing was a godawful idea, especially for those of us accostomed to unlimited speedy access to the WWW from our desktops. What made it even more unattractive was the limited capability of the current web-clipping services. "Sure, I'll pay quintuple the cost of the cellular phone airtime for the priviledge of knowing exactly where a Starbucks is near me. . ."

    With the rush of these new Palmtop Internet systems (Palm VII and now this..) I'm starting to wonder if there's any future left for my Palm III.

    I've been keeping my eye on the Handspring Visor for a while, but the downside is that they have no information regarding whether any of their partners are planning a similar wireless strategy. Does anyone have an inside track on what the future holds for the Handspring and wireless?

    In the end, though, it will be the affordability of the monthly service charges that will determine whether this technology will become the province of most people, or for people with cash to burn. I'd like to imagine a world where I'd never have to hear a cellular phone ring again during a movie...

  • The review mentions that the Palm seems much more unstable while on the network. I think the reason for this is that the TCP/IP stack uses 32k of the dynamic heap, which is quite limited (IIRC, the Palm V has less than 20k available while the TCP/IP stack is loaded). Many apps aren't tested with an active net connection, so the authors aren't as careful about checking their memory allocations.
  • Apparently, it's a cellular modem, probably 9600 baud.

    That's not true, actually.. Surprisingly, the Palm VII (and I've had one now for a good 5-6 months) runs off a radio signal, not a cellular modem. There's no modem part involved (i.e. no modulating/demodulating).

    You're correct about there being no full TCP/IP implementation. You can't run any normal TCP/IP application, but only the special PQA's (Palm Query Applications) which are basically just extremely simple HTML-based apps which can request very simple HTML pages from an actual HTTP server. However, the Palm VII itself doesn't actually hit the HTTP server, but goes through the Palm.Net proxy server, which reads the requested page and (1) strips the page of all images unless otherwise told by the page (via a metatag META NAME="PalmComputingPlatform" CONTENT="YES" is it I believe (this is knowledge from some time back I haven't used in a while)) and (2) then compresses the page into a format the Palm VII can decompress in order to use as little precious bandwidth as possible.

    See, that's the trick about PQA's. They follow the usual "minimalist" strategy of Palm Computing, which is to avoid all the fancy things that only attract attention and don't really serve any major function and stick to the things that are really useful and do them well. The Palm VII was initially, and still is, criticized for this, however, in this age of the Internet in which many people are caught up by the idea of bigger, better, and flashier. However Palm realized that the most viable option for them was to take a step back from all that and find a type of wireless service that was viable for the world of today (or at least the world of 6 months to a year ago, and we all know how different that can be from the world of today when we're talking electronics). It wasn't yet feasible to create a wireless service with unlimited access, or at least wasn't easy to pull off, so they created a service that was based on how many KB you used in a month. I had the 150 K/month plan for $24.95/mo I believe it was, and while this seems like nothing (the size of the Slashdot front page perhaps? :), when you're using a PQA it really is quite a bit, unless you're doing lots of massive data downloading, such as lots and lots of email. I found it honestly hard to run through 150KB/month.

    However, if I understand the Palm V with the OmniSky wireless service, it allows you to use PQA's (which was previously not possible as the Palm VII ran Palm OS 3.2, which handled PQA's, and all the other Palms ran Palm OS 3.0 or 3.1) and I'm not sure how they managed this through a Palm V (but I knew it could be done with enough expertise) and can also run regular TCP/IP programs, i.e. AvantGo, ProxiWeb, or an email client. Correct me if I'm wrong about that, but I think that makes for quite a flexible environment. You can choose the OmniSky per-KB plan (I don't remember exactly what the costs are but I'm sure they're available at OmniSky.com [omnisky.com]) and just use PQA's (with the flexibility of being able to use any browser, etc in an emergency) or you could choose the more expensive unlimited plan and have the ability to use PQA's or regular TCP/IP progs no matter what.

    FWIW, I find PQA's much nicer to run on a Palm screen than full-fledged web pages, because PQA's are optimized for a black and white screen of that size whereas most webpages certainly are not and a poor job is usually done of representing them on a 160x160 pixels screen. Also, I'm not sure what the speed of this new Palm V wireless modem is, but PQA's also load much faster on a slow connection than a large web page would.

    Anyway hope this info's useful to someone, and I didn't just waste 15 minutes typing it all up. :)
  • Oh and if it was a bit confusing as to why I said I _have_ a Palm VII and then was discussing how I _had_ such and such a service, that's because now I don't really use the wireless function of it because I live in Amsterdam whereas I lived in Los Altos, CA when I first bought the thing and of course the Palm.Net service is only nationwide. Does anyone know of any European solutions with a Palm VII? I doubt they exist but just in case...
  • This device uses a 'cellular-modem' protocol called WAP. WAP is totally proprietary, but it is a healthy step in the direction that all of the cellular network designers are headed. Today, the cellular networks are implementing GPRS technologies into their existing networks, and are headed toward an implementation in the next 4-5 years of a protocol called 3G (3rd Generation!) Essentially, all of these protocols are aimed at providing wireless access to Data, and to converging the mess of cellular standards here in the USA. The WAP protocol that 3Com has deployed over Sprint's network, does support up to 9600 Baud...the 3G migrating standard promises more like 115K.
  • It's great to see the demand for technology creating new products like these, however when will companies stop creating gadgets with "another new feature!" instead of creating something practical? I guess having something that'll support more then one TCP/IP application is way out of consumer price range right now. More "a-la pentium" step-by-step upgrades.

  • Sure, it's a new technological toys that I'm sure we'd all like to have. But is it really commercially viable? A wireless service and being able to use TCP/IP applications is great and all, but how much will the service cost once it leaves beta? Per byte or per minutes fees will certainly detract from the utility of the service, but I suppose it'll all be a matter of how much the market can bear and what the wireless provider will charge for access fees. Does anyone have any numbers?
  • you gotta like something that lets you have wireless on your Palm. Of course I'm also assuming that this isn't like the Palm VII? I know this uses CDPD packets, but then how does the Palm VII work? Excuse the ignorace but what are the differences between this and the Palm VII?
  • My guess to "when will companies stop creating gadgets with "another new feature!" instead of creating something practical?" is that this is the first step toward something practical being created. I think it's great that there are companies pushing existing technology in new directions. It's also a way for a company to see/ test the market if there is interest and profit in that type of product. It might also be a way for small companies or new startups to get 'in' the market and be noticed. I wouldn't worry, checking email and browsing the web is definitely a huge "gonna happen" in the future. But you're right, as of now, the price is just a little too much. =(
  • If this link on that page is technology then we are all in trouble. Change that url for Richochet.

    -Fender
  • Just a small note - while this is an interesting summary, statements like
    It becomes as unstable as any desktop OS (except Linux).
    are not likely to do anything but annoy the reader. Yes, from my personal experience Linux x86 runs more stable than Windows 9?. So what... There are tons of desktop OS's out there and I'm sure the author of that article doesn't know all of them in all setups on all kinds of hardware configurations. These kinds of comparisons won't lead us anywhere.

  • Just got mine too... (Score:4)

    by adam ( 1231 ) on Wednesday December 29, 1999 @01:58PM (#1434802)
    Mine arrived via UPS just this morning, just in time for my trip down to LA this weekend.

    The current program is a beta: you pay $299, you get the modem and free service through the end of March (and now, according to this web page, through the end of April -- cool!), and a 15% discount on their normal service.

    I've never actually used a Palm VII, but as far as I can tell this really does work like one, except with unlimited service for the next couple of months. Certainly I've downloaded a bunch of web clipping apps from palm.net (the service provider for the PVII) and they mostly work. OmniSky doesn't know yet how much the permanent fees will be (they said a max of $50/month).

    I honestly don't know if I'm going to keep this. It's really cool, but so was the Ricochet I had a couple of years ago, until I realized that I hadn't used it in four months and I was paying $40/month for the service. Fortunately OmniSky is also offering a full refund within 30 days, and a $199 refund within 60 days. Or, I suppose, I could just sell it in March or something.

    Definitely a fun toy for now, though!

    Adam

  • (N.B. I'm trying to up the signal-to-moise ratio, here-- lotta first-posters at 7:48 pm, 12/29) I use a Palm IIIx and wired PalmModem and have zero problems with crashes, lockups and other reset-situations when browsing or mailing. I use ProxiWeb 3.5 (great service/software combo, and free), AvantGo, the native Mail program coupled with TopGun Postman and Palm Telnet and they always run smooth as silk.

    Just some FYI, I guess.

  • I don't think the Palm appeals to the "commercially viable" sector yet - at least until the multiple TCP/IP connections part is worked out. At this stage I think we are looking more at a gotta-have-it gadget.

    About fees - no numbers here, but I betcha the charges will be in per minute cost rather than per byte since the time necessary for larger transactions is still (I expect) fairly high. When we eventually get high-speed connectivity to these devices I can see a per byte rate.

  • The problem you're having in parts Connecticut are that AT&T doesn't cover that area, rather an affiliate does (or so says my AT&T brochure that my cell-phone came with). It is the only place I've ever experienced problems with AT&T wireless, and my phone shows something other than AT&T in that zone (just like the Palm shows a different provider number). Not much you can do about it I suppose, you'll find the same problem in certain parts of eastern Mass.

    In general, I'm not all that surprised the TCP/IP implementation is suboptimal, back in the day the only thing that could panic my linux box would be dealing with TCP/IP, and Windows 3.0 with various addons always seemed to die with it, but now Linux works fine, and Windows is windows so it's only improved marginally. FreeBSD has had good TCP for years. Windows CE, I've been told, has a barely functional implemetation, so I suppose this must be better than that. Anybody know how the Palm VII's TCP/IP is? Also, the site says the WinNT installer worked, anyone know if they have a Linux/Unix (I'll run under Linux emu on FBSD) version waiting in the wings?
  • I never liked the cheapie antenna on the Palm VII so I opted for the Handspring Pro instead. Now this looks like a sweet product.

    By the way- heard about the new killer app for these things? There is supposed to be a price-comparison webclipping application - while in a store, just enter the product's UPC number and you'll get a list of competitive prices from other stores.
  • Remember, to qualify for a Slashdot appearance, a story must contain something about linux ;) After all, this is Linuxdot, news for linux users, nobody else matters.

  • More Details (Score:3)

    by John Goerzen ( 2781 ) on Wednesday December 29, 1999 @02:07PM (#1434811) Homepage
    Hi,

    As someone that received my OmniSky yesterday, I want to note a few more details. First, this is in BETA until May, so please keep that in mind.

    My experiences have been different from the reviewer in several aspects. I have had very good luck with the included applications. On the other hand, the installation was absolutely terrible. It requires a Windows machine to install (ODD! everything else can be installed from Linux!). The installation requires Palm Desktop, which itself didn't get along well with my Palm (linux had no problems). Having fixed that, got to install, which takes FOREVER. It backs up the entire 6MB of data in my Palm at what must be a very slow speed, then proceeds to restore this data at the same snail's pace, and then for some odd reason, back it all up again.

    What else... oh right, apps. ProxiWeb works great, has its advantages (supports SSL! and bookmarks) over AvantGo. OTOH,AvantGo has some more options for tweaking display. All in all, impressive and surprisingly useful.

    The biggest benefit: it still fits in your pocket. I do not know of any other device that offers wireless unmetered full Internet access and still manages to do that. This is a tremendous asset. It gives you a lot more freedom that you may not have thought about before.

  • The Palm VII uses the Mobitex network administered in the US by bellsouth wireless data. Basically Mobitex and CDPD give about the same data rate (around 9600 is about right), but Mobitex in general has much better coverage, covering an estimated 90% of the US population vs. AT&T's 65%. Its true that the Palm VII the is not a true IP entity, the palm has whats called a MAN adress that identifies it on the network. You have to tunnel information through http, which is a bit wierd, but does save on network traffic overhead since the proxy compresses all the data. I've played with both devices and I have to say that my preference definately goes to the VII. It would be nice to be able to use any IP based applications, but I think that Palm has come out with a solution that fits the balance of functionailty and ease of use that has made palm a success. Not to mention the price differnece; $299 (palm V) + $399 (omnisky normal price, intro price is $299) = $698 vs. Palm VII's @ $499
  • By the way- heard about the new killer app for these things? There is supposed to be a price-comparison webclipping application - while in a store, just enter the product's UPC number and you'll get a list of competitive prices from other stores.

    Cool. Finally a general use for the Symbol version of the Palm III that has the barcode scanner built in. "Gee, I'd love to buy this from you, but (*bleep*)(pause) I see I can get it online for $x. How about you meet that price? No? Ok. (tap)(tap) I just ordered it and it will be delivered tomorrow morning. Thanks anyway. How about one of these? (*bleep*)..."

    This would be especially fun at certain stores where the sales people are all obnoxious twits who work on commission (Guitar Center comes to mind :-)

    G.

  • I say if you've already got a Palm V go for the Palm V add-on piece for $399. A Palm VII will set you back $499 whereas this add-on piece will only be another $399, and will give you more flexibility of service. (See my earlier post [slashdot.org].) Also, the Palm V with add-on is a good bit smaller than a Palm VII.

    Good luck on a decision. :)

  • Re:Is it really commercially viable? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    From poking around in on the omnisky webpage, it says it will cost at most $49.95 a month, flat fee, no roaming charges. If you are part of the beta program, you get 15% off the standard monthly rate for as long as you are a member.
  • The palm VII isn't actually on the internet-proper. You don't have an actual IP address, and you can't use 3rd party IP applications.

    IIRC. :(

    Jordan
  • All *I* want is for OmniSky to serve the Albany (NY) area. Argh! Oh yea, and my Palm Vx to ship... (I've been waiting forever for it...)

  • Another report from an OmniSky user... (Score:3)

    by SuperKendall ( 25149 ) on Wednesday December 29, 1999 @06:44PM (#1434819)
    I got mine right before Christmas - I think around the 22nd.

    To start with, I have to say that unlike everyone else my install did NOT go well. I have a 2MB Palm V and used to have a fair number of notes, phone numbers, and apps loaded...

    That is, USED to. The installation claims it needs 1MB free memory on the Palm to install all of its apps, which would be fine except somehow it got confused during the install and thought it needed 1MB free AFTER the install of all its many compments!! How very frustrating, in that after deleting every app on my Palm it was 9k short of the space it needed and the install would abort every time.

    Luckly, I determined that at the point the install quit the Palm really had everything loaded that was nessicary, and I was able to go ahead. I will summaraize the install with two notes:

    * The install wants to update your ROM first (which is why it backs up all your files), this takes some time.

    * The install has no way to select which pieces you would like to install - so you ARE ging to make room for the install to drop a 38k ESPN.com app in your Palm even if you don't care to lookup sports scores.

    But, as others have said it is a beta program so hopefully my feedback will fix the installation up a bit.

    As for actual use of the thing, so far I have used it for some phone number lookup, stock quote lookup, and most importantly Etak traffic reports for Denver - which hasn't actually helped me yet but looks like it could be useful at some point.
    The mail server (I've just hooked it up to OmniSky's for the moment) has had some problems so far s I haven't been able to use it much, though it has a number of canned messages you can send quickly if you want to just send someone a note that you're running late or want someone to call Another nice feature is that the mail app knows all of the e-mail addresses you have stored in your Address book...

    Another thing that I'm not sure others mentioned was that as part of being in the beta program, you got a 15% discount on the monthly service for as long as you subscribe.

    I'll try and get some pictures up tomorrow if no-one else has.
  • Does anyone have any info about them expanding the coverage area? If you don't live in a major city, you are SOL.

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