Sony/Palm To Team Up 90
diane wrote to us about the latest joint press release: Sony and Palm are going to be teaming up, to make "Wireless Music, Video Devices." Palm will also start to use Sony's memory stick format as part of the deal, a response to the pressure from Handspring's devices. Diane also noted that this makes Sony one of the first Windows' licensees to go with the PalmOS over WinCE, another sign that WinCE is in some troubled waters.
Re:Competition is such a GOOD thing! (Score:2)
I own a Palm III and have ordered Visor (it hasn't arrived yet). It's hard to say how much "pressure" is being placed on Palm by Handspring and the other clones. My definition of pressure may not be the same as yours (unless we're talking force divided by surface area of course). Palm devices have been dropping in price since Handspring arrived on the scene however. I recently saw the Palm IIIx at Buy.com for $259, just a little more than the Visor deluxe but with half the memory.
And is the Handspring COMPLETELY code-compatible?
The Handspring Visor series runs PalmOS 3.1, the same as the Palm IIIx and Palm V. Its ROM is not flash-upgradeable however. So it can't use software like FlashPro to store memory in ROM that isn't being taken up by the OS.
Another issue is that Palm recently released Palm OS 3.3 which must be installed in flash ROM, so the Visor can't be upgraded to this version of the OS. But Palm usually releases upgrades to its OS in RAM anyway. So this might not be as much of a handicap as one would think.
Upcoming... palms with tactile feedback?
Hanspring and the initial reviews of the Visor claim its buttons have very nice tactile feedback.
Re:Still film not dead yet? (Score:1)
If you use little "zoom" camera with maximum f/4.5 aperture. It doesn't matter what digital/print film you use.
CY
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
This may be just PR babble helping their startup, but I think that it still indicates that the Palm may be more expensive than it would have to be, IMHO.
Sony Memory Stick Harmful? (Score:3)
I considered a Sony digital camera recently and bought an Olympus C-2500L because it comes with both SmartMedia and CompactFlash slots, and I wasn't locked into Olympus as a memory vendor. I put 160MB in there between them, at a price I could never have approached using Sony Memory Sticks.
It seems to me that if we buy hardware that uses Sony memory sticks, we're locked in to one vendor and will pay higher prices. Are they even licensing memory stick production to anyone else?
Thanks
Bruce Perens
P.S. The Olympus C-2500L is wonderful. Still film is dead.
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:1)
The only area that they have a very strong presence in is home electronics, and there isn't much room there to introduce their own standards. They try with things like the minidisc, but end up licensing it to other companies because there is too much competition in that market for a completely closed system to succeed; they need the support of other major electronics companies.
If they acquire a significant market share in any area, they will abuse it like any other large company. The idea that companies will regulate themselves has been proven false more times than I care to note.
For now, all you get with a Sony PC is a Sony PC, but how long until their PCs begin to feature customized connectors to their other products, such as video cameras?
Sony does innovate a fair bit, I think they can be credited with the first portable cd players. If they could, Sony would much rather "innovate" the MS way: develop their own bastardized version of a standard and force it down the public's throat until they have control. This is exactly the situation with Memory Sticks. CompactFlash is a well-established standard created long before Memory Sticks and used by many devices, but Sony feels the need to do things their own way. Both are flash memory: I don't see any technical advantages to Sony's version. They just want to be the only supplier of it so they can keep their nice fat profit margins, and send the lawyers after anyone who tries to make a compatible product.
I wonder what Sony is going to try to force down our throats with the PSX2.
Re:good looking devices (Score:1)
Lea
Re:sony is scary. (Score:1)
I think Sony has an excellent ability to recognize how to put their products in the forefront of the market. They *know* that the Palm is *the* handheld device right now, and more people have them than digital cameras or aibos. So it's a brilliant move to get them to use their memory stick technology. If Palm is smart though, they won't make it *exclusively* use it, and instead leave an open interface for other types of products.
Re:WinCE only for PDAs? (Score:1)
I posit this alternative view: Microsoft is falling back on embedded systems since they spent millions developing Windows CE platform and it is losing in the PDA market, the market for which it was originally intended.
Question: How many Non-PDA devices are available today, or were available at any time, that use the Windows CE OS, as compared with the number of models of PDAs that use or have used Windows CE OS?
Answer: Hella lots more PDAs used/use Windows CE than devices that are not PDAs. That means, Microsoft was actively marketing WinCE as a PDA OS, not an embedded system.
Off the top of my head, I can think of two devices that are not PDAs that have been available (i.e. excluding vaporware) that use WinCE: the Sega Dreamcast, and the remote that Harmon/Kardon makes. Now, how many PDAs have used WinCE? Fifty separate models? Sixty, maybe?
WinCE's miserable dismal showing as an embedded OS is either proof that MS is terrible at marketing (nope, not hardly), OR they never intended the primary use of WinCE in embedded devices.
Re:Sony's Interest (Score:2)
--
"Some people say that I proved if you get a C average, you can end up being successful in life."
Aibo + Palm would be way cool (Score:1)
Is EPOC (and Psion) dead? (Score:1)
So now that Sony publicly committed to PalmOS, does it mean that EPOC and Psion will go down the path of Amiga and Atari?
Kaa
Re:WinCE only for PDAs? (Score:1)
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
I am not afraid of it -- I know they have too much market share for their own good. Case in point: ridiculous prices, miniscule memory, small screen. Users have been screaming about this for a loooong time. What did Palm do? Nothing. All we got was a wireless access to some Web-based info and still at ridiculous prices. And you should hear Palm executives speak about the future -- they talk about PalmOS superseding Windows (not CE, just Windows!) everywhere in about five years... I really would like some stuff that they are smoking.
Kaa
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:1)
matisse:~$ cat
Re:The problem with Sony. (Score:1)
After reading a story about Sony a few months back in Wired, I'd now say that my dream job would be working at JPL, MIT Media Lab, or Sony. I'd like to live in the future, and Sony appears to be at least 2 or 3 years ahead of what can actually be bought in a store.
Re:good looking devices (Score:1)
matisse:~$ cat
Re:Uh-oh (Score:1)
Does anyone know if the Hoffstein (and Kalin, I believe) have their paper on NTRU up on the web?
Re:Is EPOC (and Psion) dead? (Score:1)
Re:sony is scary. (Score:1)
Following the chain ... (Score:1)
And now as a Java animation
Regards, Ralph.
Re:Sony's Interest (Score:1)
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:1)
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:1)
I don't know about you, but my PC is on its way out.
Competition is such a GOOD thing! (Score:1)
Good News... (Score:1)
oh...and imagine a beowulf cluster of those things
( anyone notice that the mainstream media has started to go a little MS Bashing as well lately? )
Sony, the next MS? (Score:2)
Maybe this time we'll get a more benevolent ruler...
good looking devices (Score:2)
Re:Too much market share? (Score:2)
Re:This is the right direction. (Score:1)
Isn't that what the Visor is supposed to provide through Springboards? Of course, you have to deal with their customer service problems at the moment...
You're right about this being the right direction to go. By licensing the PalmOS, Palm not only gets the licensing fees, but also gets to take advantage of the innovations of other companies. This is also a way of preventing the problems of lack of competition. Palm may not feel the pressure to upgrade it's OS, but it is providing a way for others to upgrade it.
Too much market share? (Score:2)
I'm going to get flamed for this, but I've got to say it anyway. Anyone else out there becoming afraid that Palm is getting too much market share? Last I heard, Palm had somewhere between 65% and 85% of the handheld PDA market.
Granted, I own a Palm, and I love it. However, if 3Com/Palm get such a high market share, where is their incentive to innovate with the platform? The desire to get people to upgrade is one incentive to improve it, but you know the company will run faster with the competition nipping at it's heals.
Sony's Interest (Score:3)
MS still has not learned how to work with companies outside of the computing environment (Sony is not just a computer company, as we all know). They made the same mistake with the banking industry. They are trying to buy up broadband but that won't work with the consumer device market.
This is the right direction. (Score:1)
Memory Stick (Score:1)
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
More companies to follow? (Score:2)
Now when will I be able to get an add on to play FF8 on my pilot?
~Caliban
WinCE only for PDAs? (Score:1)
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:2)
I remember the design station modeled on PSX2 hardware costing like 8 times more than a standard PC. No... they don't want to be the next microsoft. Not everyone who expands to different markets wants to control everything.
Re:Competition is such a GOOD thing! (Score:1)
Upcoming... palms with tactile feedback?
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:3)
~Caliban
Just tell me where the trash can is... (Score:1)
The @#*&%! Neomagic sound chip in my VAIO????????? (Score:2)
What about it sony? You are big enough to force the specs to be publicly released. Because you don't force the specs to be released, we Linux users are forced to wait for the chip to be laboriously reverse engineered by determined geeks. This just hurts your reputation, and hurts it more than you know. So get out your pencils and do some figuring on the value of making friends with 1,000,000 geeks.
The same goes for the stupid winmodem in all the newer VAIO's, also with secret specs. I was forced to lay out an additional $100 for an AT-command compatible pcmcia modem.
My advice to any Linux user about getting a VAIO: don't. Wait until Sony does something about their undocumented hardware. Look at other laptops in the meantime. Email Sony, tell them you'll buy a VAIO as soon as specs for the sound/video chip and the modem are publicly released. Look at other laptops in the meantime. Don't buy a VAIO.
Re:good looking devices (Score:1)
Re:gunky proprietary stuff (Score:1)
I think Minidiscs are a lot more convenient (and certainly less expensive) than flash memory storage for MP3 players.
Re:At last: Internet "transistor radio" (Score:2)
Problems:
(1) Bandwidth
(2) Battery life
If these two problems are solved to the extent that you could listen to online radio stations for a whole day, then much much more cool things would be possible than just listening to NZ radio stations.
Kaa
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
Ok, I'm better now. The company you're speaking of is Handspring. It was founded by Donna Dubinsky and Jeff Hawkins. They've already got the Visor out and it is faster & cheaper.
Re:good looking devices (Score:1)
In addition... (Score:1)
I won't argue about its relative merits when compared to Compact Flash (due to my own ignorance), but this too might go the way of Beta if they don't get some more companies on-board.
PSX2 Ethernet (Score:1)
Re:At last: Internet "transistor radio" (Score:1)
>
> (1) Bandwidth
> (2) Battery life
Sure, these are problems, but not *big* problems.
I know people who have used the RealAudio G2 player over Ricochet modems. They said it
sounded okay... haven't heard it myself. I would
think that streaming mp3, like icecast (or
shoutcast) signals would sound better.
As for battery life, well, one can always hack
a battery pack large enough to support any
indefinite length of service.
And I might point out that the "internet car
radio" version wouldn't have any problem with
battery life.
Re:The @#*&%! Neomagic sound chip in my VAIO?????? (Score:1)
Re:Memory Stick (Score:1)
~Caliban
The problem with Sony. (Score:2)
Who knows how well they'll operate in an environment where they have to get along with a number of different devices.
Hotnutz.com [hotnutz.com]
Re:More companies to follow? (Score:2)
The irony, of course, is that MS points to the examples of this loosening up of the market as evidence that they're *not* monopolistic.
"See, Mr. Jackson? We don't beat up anyone!"
gunky proprietary stuff (Score:2)
While I welcome several aspects of this (Sony teaming up with Palm instead of WinCE, motivation to boost Palm hardware cpu power, general competition), I'm a little disappointed that it'll push Palm further down a proprietary road. I'm simply not interested in buying into any technology that has hand-slapping of perceived-errant consumers built into it. No Sony memory sticks for me. Maybe my next PDA will be a Visor. But then again, the idea of playing 8-tracks with my Palm is strangely appealing...
Too Much Diversity? (Score:3)
As good as this news seems, I have to wonder where the Palm platform is headed in terms of expandability. I just ordered a Visor Deluxe [handspring.com] with the Springboard expansion slot to replace my Palm III. Then along comes the TRGPro [trgpro.com] with Compact Flash. Now we've got Sony (PalmMan?) with the memory stick.
That's three, count 'em three, incompatible standards for one computing platform. The Springboard module is bigger than CF so you can make a CF to Springboard adapter.
But what about the memory stick? Granted its supposed to be as small as a stick of gum. So you could probably squeeze it onto the same device as a Springboard or CF slot but we're talking about a device that's the size of a deck of cards here. There just isn't much room for expansion slots.
So you're going to have the situation where one technology will catch on and the others will fall by the wayside. If you bet on the wrong one, you wind up with a hand held Beta VCR. That's a bit of an exageration since you could still use the device as an organizer and handheld computer, just like the Palm Pilot. And it will still run rings aroung WinCE in terms of usability.
I would guess that the memory stick will die out as a technology. It only seems good enough for, well memory while CF and the Springboard are much more versatile.
Sony's Problem (Score:1)
... (Score:1)
--
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
Seriously, I didn't know that about Visor. Now I know that. After all, I think that's what Slashdot is for - learning by discussion.
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
"Visor" from the Creators of the Palm [slashdot.org]
Handspring Having Troubles Delivering Visors [slashdot.org] (this story's probably out of date, they prolly have the pipeline clear by now)
More details on the Visor/Handspring (Update) [slashdot.org]
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
Now, don't take this the wrong way, I love my Palm III, and wouldn't necessarily want all of these features weighing it down, stuff that WinCE devices DO have; ethernet ports, PCMCIA cards, color displays, sound, GOBS more memory, much more CPU horsepower. But what I DO take issue with is how outrageously expensive the Palm is compared to a WinCE device is, when you compare features.
In other words, I'm saying that Palm ought to lower it's prices. Drastically. It's obvious these guys are making a huge profit on these things, and of course, since they have such high marketshare, and high demand, they don't have to lower their prices. So it's obvious that Palm already has too high a marketshare. However, they only have this one market, PDA's, and they're not encroaching into others, and they're winning on technical merit, not strongarm tactics, so I don't disagree with them as heartily as I do with Microsoft. And did I say I LOVE my Palm III? Went down to the beach on Saturday, looked up the tides with TideTool, checked the weather forcast with my saved AvantGo webpage. Checked movie listings to see what was playing that night, and when. Can you beat that shit? no way. It does what I want it to. But I'm just NOT going to buy a V or VII, because they're too fucking expensive. WAY.
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
Re:Too Much Diversity? (Score:1)
I wish I had a nickel for every time someone said "Information wants to be free".
Evaluation of embedded OS's (Score:2)
Re:The @#*&%! Neomagic sound chip in my VAIO?????? (Score:1)
Audio does skip with the Redhat kernel. You need to re-compile with "Use DMA if available" set to yes in the block devices section. (Sorry, I use make xconfig, so I don't remember the actual name of the parameter.)
The only serious problem I've had (other than the LoseModem)is that PC Card services and the built-in EtherPro network card don't want to play nice with each other. Once again, this is supposed to be fixed in the EPro driver included in 2.2.13+.
A good source of VAIO sound information is available at www.uglx.org/sony.html [uglx.org]
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:2)
Thanks
Bruce
sony is scary. (Score:1)
but microsoft is nothing next to sony. ms is a niche company with a modishly inflated paper value and a nouveau-riche disdain for the long-term good of its user base. it's trying to diversify, sure, and corbis might turn out to be super-sinister one day, but in its wildest dreams it can't approach sony's iron grip on the media supply chain.
perhaps there ought to be some sort of hardware/software rubicon: if you make the hardware, you may not profit from the software, and vice versa.
that would have hampered ms somewhat too, if it was written to disallow their bundling protection racket, but it would cripple sony and many of the other real corporate predators.
ps and have you seen what's happened to berlin? they gave it to sony on a plate and said thank you. anyone remember the dish with the death wish in hhgtg? eek.
Still film not dead yet? (Score:1)
Bruce
Re:Competition is such a GOOD thing! (Score:1)
1) Palm reduced the price of there whole product line shortly after the introduction of the Visor.
2) They should be *very* code compatable. Unless someone is going outside the OS specs.
Yeah, the Palm V is overpriced by as much as $300.
--
OS Liscensing (Re:Too much market share?) (Score:1)
That doesn't make it the kind of monopoly that MS is, and would most definitely spur innovation as hardware vendors compete for the market by adding wonderful new features
Uh-oh (Score:1)
(If you haven't heard of it, follow the link. Whoa.)
At last: Internet "transistor radio" (Score:3)
I've been waiting for someone to pull this off for some time. All it takes is something like a palm pilot with built in Richochet and an audio jack (there have been PDAs with one but not the other), and then someone like me in California will be able to walk around listening to a small college radio station in New Zealand.
If you've been paying any attention to what the radio industry is like in the United States you'd know how supremely cool this is. The FCC (Federal Communications Commission) controls access to the airwaves. No new frequencies have been allocated to radio in most urban areas in over half a century, and there's been a huge amount of corporate consolidation in radio: it all sounds the same because it's all owned by the same people. And on top of this, the FCC has censorship power, with some very vaugely defined rules about what you're allowed to say on the air (nothing "obscene", "indeceny" is allowed only late at night, announcers can make "no direct calls to action", and there's that odd distinction between advertising and underwriting announcments, etc).
The Sony/Palm deal at least has the potential to produce something that can break this corporate/government monopoly on the airwaves. Imagine, never having to listen to country music, just because you're in texas...
Questions remain: will it handle streaming MP3 like ala icecast, or will it force you to use something like RealAudio (or worse, will they invent a third format, and try and force people to adopt yet another server-side technology)? Will they go beserk making it (sl)easy to use and therefore inflexible (e.g. make it hard to access any unusual content by providing people with a limited number of channels to flip through)?
The one thing that I find distressing about this announcement is that it's Sony doing it... I was hoping it would be a small start-up -- preferably one with an IPO I could ride -- though that's not the main reason. Sony does a great job with economies of scale, but I'd feel better about a world that has a few more sources for consumer electronics.
Re:Too much market share? (Score:1)
So, if 3Com sits on its high market share, no doubt that someone will come along and, over time, take it away (lighter, smaller, cheaper, flashier, cooler, reads-real-writing-instead-of-Graffiti-er, hipper, better).
Re:Sony, the next MS? (Score:1)
Oh! Oh! Also, does this mean that Casio will, buy Caldera (or the other way around), sell it (or get sold) to Novell, get crushed by SonyHat flooding the market with cheap Palunix devices, then change their name to Emprise and hope everyone forgets?
Enquiring Minds Want to Know!
Kind Regards,