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Handhelds Hardware

Linux on Palm 192

Posted by Hemos from the get-yer-motor-running dept.
thppt writes "PalmStation is reporting that a company called OSK Inc has ported Linux to the Palm hardware platform; they're dubbing it as a kind of "LinuxCE". They have some screenshots of bootup, running apps, telnetting to the Palm, connecting to the Palm's web server, and multitasking. " They've actually got a WindStone ROM Image for evaluation on their web site. I haven't tried to download it yet, but has anyone else tried this?
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Linux on Palm More

Linux on Palm

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  • Clarification (Score:4)

    by bgdarnel ( 2144 ) on Thursday November 11, 1999 @06:22AM (#1542452) Homepage
    OSK did not port Linux to the Palm; they're using the ucLinux [uclinux.org] kernel. OSK has written a PalmOS compatibility layer (analogous to Wine), which lets you run existing Palm applications as well as Linux apps.
  • I looked at the website and didn't find the source code...the kernel is GPL'ed, so they have to distribute the source....Did I not look hard enough? Can someone point out where the source is? I guess if it's a clean room implementation, they don't have to distribute the source, but considering how available the linux source code is, I HIGHLY doubt its clean room.
  • What exactly are they selling? A ROM chip with this stuff? Where can we buy it? How much does/will it cost? The press release [oski.co.kr] doesn't make it any more clear.

    (On a side note, if the product is a ROM chip this would explain why they claim the ROM image is "for evaluation only" - because of course you can't load a ROM image into your Palm, duh)

  • Except, of course, you *can* load a ROM image into your Palm (III), since it uses Flash...

  • This looks like a standard build of uClinux-2.0.33. The only thing I see that they have added to uClinux-2.0.33 (user space or kernel) is the boa web server I ported last month and a 4k executable called PalmBox which presumably calls the PalmOS ROM.

    This is a copyright violation of uClinux (Kenneth and I hold that copyright) Look at the boot screen, they claim "all rights reserved" Hell no.

    This is a copyright violation of PalmOS. If they are providing a ROM image, then it contains a copy of PalmOS. 3Com is going to be pissed!

    We're on it, I assume they have just misunderstood the copyright issues as this is not fair use. People are welcome to use uClinux in commercial products, but you can't say "all rights reserved" or call it your own code any more then you can call Linux your own.

    http://www.uClinux.org
    http://www.uClinux.com
    For the _same_ screenshot of the graphics demo,
    http://www.uClinux.org/images/peng-pilot-sc.gif

    D. Jeff Dionne
  • We already have those. They're called "laptops".

    PDAs are not laptops, they are PDAs. Stop trying to apply laptop/desktop "Add More MORE MORE" rules to the PDA market, it does not work. Ask the venturecapitalists and hardware/software manufacturers who dropped 1 billion US $$$ into that market with exactly that strategy if you doubt.


    "I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
  • I believe the Palm's ROM is actually a flash ROM. It can be reprogrammed through software.
  • You seem to assume "full size keyboard", which is not the case.

    For the record, I have a GoType keyboard for my Palm III whenever I want to take notes in class (for reasons already discussed here) and yes it is rather sizable. Roughly the size of a WinCE H/PC, except I don't always have to take it along. :)

    The point is, tho Graffitti is a rather nice system, I type far faster than I even write on paper with pen, so I like having a keyboard when I'm entering rather large amounts of information. I don't carry it around with me all the time, this would be a Stupid Thing To Do(tm) for the reasons you mention (too damn big :) ).


    And besides, there's a company called Think Outside or somesuch that's about to start shipping a keyboard that folds up into a package not much larger than the Palm itself..... vixiewantbadohyes*drool* :)


    "I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
  • as useful on a theoretical front as a Palm running Linux is, and as geeky it is to have a webserver in your pocket, there really is little, if any, practical application to this.

    I am working now on an industrial application that requires handheld units to be interfaced via radio modems to a network, all for the purpose of factory floor automation. Obviously, there is a use for Linux on the palm pilot - I'd much rather work with a system where I've got full source code availability, than with PalmOS - which looks good, by the way, but is not open

    However, we won't use palm pilots this time round - the technology is just a little to immature. One big problem is that all the radio modems available for the Palm seem to be oriented towards connectivity with cellphone networks. That's not what we want, we need a wireless LAN connection. This is where the consumer orientation of the Palm really shows. Maybe in another year that will change. In the mean time, we'll use older, uglier, heavier, keypad units that have been around for a while.
  • I remember back when Slashdot was a pleasant discussion area for smart people with different opinions. Nowadays posting anything that seems to be slightly anti-Linux is a surefire way to get moderated down.

    Why moderate this down as "Troll"? I think this is a completely valid point, and worth discussing about. Can a moderator with some common sense please moderate this post up?

  • Psion! (Score:1)

    by Fats ( 14870 )
    Linux was already ported to the Psion 5 :-)

    See Calcaria Linux7k [calcaria.net] project.
  • Hey fellas, I'm thinking of joining the Palm world and buying a Handspring Visor. Will this work with it? I'd like to try it out at least, it may have some interesting possibilities.
  • I really would like to know for example if it were be possible to create your own roms for your own and how to perhaps install them? I haven't the faintest idea of how to do anything of the sort. What would be really cool and fast would be to have all the essential utilities and perhaps even a web server on a rom chip so as to prevent anything bad happening to a web page or critical system use. Updating the kernel could be a problem but still solvable.
  • Although I am a Linux fan, I don't see the point of porting linux to a palm. Since the palm differs so much from a desktop computer, how can it possibly share the same apps, even if it uses the same os? Are there going to be any new applications that will only run on the linux version of palm, and if so, why couldn't they make them for palmos instead, it seems to work pretty well for me?
  • How does this make it easier? You can already write applications for the Palm using Linux. There is a gcc for writing applications for the Palm.
    ---

  • If you overwrite the flash on a Palm it will not return to the default. For example when I upgraded me OS to 3.3 it gave grave warning about not interupting the process.

    But having said that if I were putting this thing together I would put on some form of load in a protected area that couldn't be overwritten for safety.
  • Um... considering that the Visor doesn't have flash ROM, how would you install this on the Visor in the first place?

    I would think you wouldn't be able to...


    "I don't believe that there is one, single, perfect spiritual way and, in realizing that, obviously you become a lot more open."
  • GPL or not ... the removal of copyrights is not fair use. Not sure if Korean law protects the interests of the authors and community volunteers that have worked for years on linux and derivatives like uClinux [uclinux.org]. Many companies do use uClinux in commercial products [uclinux.com] and do so in a responsible manner, releasing code changes back to the authors and retaining original copyright headers and console output copyrite markers. Jeff (from Rt-Control) and Kenneth (now at Palm) both put a lot of effort into porting a non-mmu version of Linux now known at uClinux. While I have not been able to download or see any source code from the OSK site directly, the mirrored images that I did see seem to make claim that they are the sole authors all rights reserved. I think they may have made a simple mistake. I think Palm would be mighty pissed if they stole their ROM image. I do not support theft of intellectual property Palm's or that of the uClinux Project's. Michael Durrant
  • ...but, why?

    PalmOS is very good for what it does.

    --
    Max V.
  • The real benefit is not that it gives you a great interface right now. Linux is an "enabling technology" that allows _you_ to design and implement a "Great Interface" (tm) and have it distributed & used all over the world.

    That is Linux's real power.

    Real
  • There's already an HTTP server that runs on any stock PalmPilot with a TCP/IP/PPP stack (PalmOS 2.0 and above). Serve's MemoPad pages I think...
  • I was at this site no more than an hour before and it was pretty peppy (considering it's a Korean site and I'm over in hte states), and now after the post I can barely get the banner logo to come up. Boy do we work fast around here...

    -------------------------------------------
  • I got mine for $250 (plus $12 s/h). Works great! Check on pricewatch.com. The Series 5mx is more expensive, but that's because it's twice as fast, has twice as much memory, and maybe something else. The 5 is all you need for cheap, small connectivity, though. Even almost touch-typeable!
  • You're likely thinking of uClinux, an embedded MMUless version of Linux for the Palm. According to this site, Windstone is based on uClinux. From what I can glean from the site (it's going really slowly), Windstone is uClinux with the capability to run PalmOS programs. Personally, I don't know how they can really do that; many applications are based on the fact that PalmOS doesn't have any high-level multitasking. As someone else pointed out, PalmOS is very good for what it does, and as much as I love the idea of free software on my Palm (not this freeware and millions of crappy $5 trivial shareware programs where the nagscreen and registration code probably took more coding than the program itself), if all this does is makes it easy to port Linux applications to the Palm, well, that's rather pointless. I don't need GIMP or Netscape on my Palm, as TealPaint and AvantGo do the same sort of functionality except better in the context of the Palm. PalmOS is *great* as far as handheld OSes go; as useful on a theoretical front as a Palm running Linux is, and as geeky it is to have a webserver in your pocket, there really is little, if any, practical application to this.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
  • This does make sense. The reason that CE doesn't make sense in many palm tops is because the UI was made for desktops. However, I highly doubt that anyone is going to try and run X on a palmtop ,although, it is possible that they would use TinyX which is a version of the Xlibs made to run on low powered machines, while making it easier for programmers used to X to write applications.

    Most likely, a new UI of some sort will be developed. The main hinderance to this is a lack of free hand writing recognition software. It sounds like the above company may have in fact already written some handwriting software, albiet not free stuff.

    So, linux on the palm pilot isn't bad. But what might make it actually good? It does have some areas that are better than PalmOS, like networking. Plus, writing C code for PalmOS has some strange quirks. Linux on the Palmtop would probably be good for vertical market applications, as well as the usual group of people who want linux/free software on any computing devices that they use. Personally, I would love a PalmPilot running linux. It might inspire me to write my own hand writing recognition software (I think I know how, but I haven't had the motivation to make that the project that I spend my little shreds of spare time on.).

  • GPL Violation? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    The download link says it's for evaluation only. Assuming the ROM includes a Linux kernel, isn't that a violation of GPL?
  • Would you care to explain the problem you have with that comment instead of just insulting the poster? He was talking about the future.
    Future Generation (more powerfull) palm + wireless net connection + good networking OS == portable web server, no traditional computer nescesary. What in that speculation is not forseeable in the future?
  • Or is my route between here and there just really messed up?
  • Well, they say that this thing is "Linux based"... but are only offering "evaluation" versions to download?! If they have used the Linux source then surely they must adhere to the GPL and release the source?!
  • done that micro-controller linux [uclinux.org]


    "There is no spoon" - Neo, The Matrix

  • .kr is korea.

    AdamL.
  • This package IS built on ucLinux. It is a modified uclinux kernel, with apps. I'm not sure how modified the kernel is, etc, but it is based on uclinux itself..
  • My guess would be their "binary compatibility with PalmOS" is the same as FreeBSD's binary compatibility with linux.

    LinuxCE(gah) or whatever they wish it to be called can probably run PalmOS apps. This could be good.
  • I thought that was the whole idea behind the Handspring Visor? It is a PalmOS based machine with a slot that will (eventually) take an 802.11 card. We have one unit here at work for evaluation and so far it seems pretty cool. Getting it on the LAN full time will change it from a toy into a must-have.
  • Well I believe in this. I realy don't have much of a choice not to run linux anyway. I had substandard hardware and little money. I ran dos for a while but it really got frustrating when good open source programs started to not give a working dos version or just not give me the features that I wanted. I believe that the first program that did this was angband. Sometimes even I the greate linux believer feels that sometimes that the software is bloated and slow. Recent experiences with gimp and X give me cause to believe this. Generally however linux is a good solution. Now I do believe that if a group of engineers and human interaction specalists spent time designing the PalmOS than it is probably a very good solution and I would be loathe to replace an OS that I cannot get a new copy of if I want it back (like a CD or something sorry I still cannot connect to the server to see how they get it on there). Eventually companies possibly even microsoft will produce quality stuff that could surpass linux in every area. This is possible if they think they feel the heat. All they have to do is get a great deal of the people from MIT and related schools and pay them bucketloads of money and perhaps they can do something. This is well within the power of Microsoft. I just think that this discovery was a test to see if something could be done. Possibly even something a college student dreamed up for a final project in some CS or EE class. To bring up the poster he most likely did have valid points. I also concur that in fact slashdot is a highly violatile environment. (No I did not moderate this and have not had moderator level access in any way for several months. In fact I only moderated once) What has to be said is that in any group that is pretty much homogenous that many people will react negatively and a small minority will act reactionarily. That is the nature of the beast.
  • The Visor has no flash, so you wouldn't be able to replace your ROM image with this. (This could be worked around with a program like loadlin.exe). Even if you could, I don't think you would want to yet, as installing this ROM image would be irreversable. For now, stick with emulation
  • I just want to be able to put linux on my TI-83
  • Well, it may be TECHNICALLY feasible, but ROM is a piece of hardware, so if you were planning on having your own customized ROM chips made, you'd require a fabrication plant of some sort to stamp out the chip.

    Some might say this is a quite a daunting task you've set for yourself...

    -------------------------------------------
  • What, women can't be geeks? I know quite a few female geeks. :) Oh, and I'm not talking about something like JenniCam... that's not a wearable device where someone can see exactly what's going on from Jenni's point of view, with or without biometric information.
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
  • Well, actually, the Palm's screen is 240x320, but other than that, yeah, that was exactly the point I was implying. In WindStar's defense, it looks like they've got some decent drawing/widget toolkits for uClinux, but again, that's a moot point - PalmOS is already MUCH more suited for a handheld than Linux ever will be. If someone wants to do a free clone of PalmOS or a free handheld-oriented OS, that's fine by me, but don't try to retrofit a server OS with workstation legacy to a handheld...
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.
  • Dear Mr. Dionne, To make things clear, I'd like to introduce myself: I'm CTO of OSK, Inc and work on WindStone Project. We always thanks you RT-guys' contribution to Linux world. But we need to clarify copyright issues you claims. First, we do not use any code or any binary image from Palm OS rom. We implements all the PalmOS API from scratch. As you know, PIC code has 64K size limits. So we build all the Palm compatibility stuff using other processes and merged them into rom image. WindStonePE, 5k code you have seen, is just a glue that activate these palm stuffs. This is a point of honor with us. You must point out which part of our rom image from PalmOS rom. Or you commits a serious libel on us. Second, I cannot understand your copyright claims. It's our mistake not to refer uClinux project in our press release, but we mention that our product based on "uClinux" in our Product page on web. We will publish our source code based on uClinux kernel and you can get the diffs as soon as possible after we clean up the source and make documentation what we have done. The only thing worse than no release is a bad release as you know. The most wierd part of your claims is that Kenneth and you holds uClinux copyright. Which kind of copyright do you have in uClinux or even in Linux Kernel. As far as I understand, uClinux is an GPL'd software and we have right to use it in our product in any form if our product has GPL license. Third, you point out that "All rights reserved" on our splash screen is copyright violation. But this means that other part of WindStone like WindStone PE and WindStone GE does not have open source licences. If this causes misunderstanding that uClinux is our product, then we will modify the copyright section on slash to make things clear. With regards, ---- Kim, Sung-Ryong
  • The reason Windows is not suitable for Palmtops is because it includes an interface which was designed for use with a mouse, keyboard, hi-res display, fast processor.

    Linux does not have this problem. Linux is a low-level OS which does not inherently include a particular user interface. You can access it with the Bourne Shell or with Gnome--or for that matter a Palm-OS look-alike interface.

    This is the advantage ucLinux [uclinux.com] has over WinCE [microsoft.com].

    The advantage ucLinux has over PalmOS is that it has a versitile architecture that will easily keep abreast with Hardware. PalmOS already has memory heap problems. When standard PalmPilot hardware includes hi-res colour displays, 1 GHZ processors, 512 MB RAM, wireless modems--and voice recognition is commonplace--PalmOS will be as kludgy and buggy as DOS/Windows is today. And ucLinux will shine.

  • I've wondered this about alot of embedded device. Nokia uses Linux, as does Tivo, so where is the source, or at least the binary?

  • uClinux (IIRC) still has no ability to run the pilot LCD screen or accept pen input. (If it does, it's not in the ROM)


    If the Windstone ROM can actually be used, then they've done a lot.

  • The reason that CE doesn't make sense in many palm tops is because the UI was made for desktops. However, I highly doubt that anyone is going to try and run X on a palmtop

    Agreed on both points. But today, you can write Palm programs with gcc, and all the usual Posix libc goodies. You can't use X, you can't use Gtk. So this begs the question, what tangible benefits would Linux provide that PalmOS would not?

    So, linux on the palm pilot isn't bad. But what might make it actually good?

    Exactly. As far as I can tell, using Linux rather than PalmOS wouldn't change either the programming experience or the end-user experience. In particular, there are basically no end-user Linux applications that will run on Palm Linux without first being redesigned to work with a completely different user interface.

    It does have some areas that are better than PalmOS, like networking.

    Isn't the primary problem with Palm networking the networking hardware, not software?

    Plus, writing C code for PalmOS has some strange quirks.

    Interesting, can you give some examples?

    Personally, I would love a PalmPilot running linux. It might inspire me to write my own hand writing recognition software

    What does Linux have to do with that? Do you think it would be easier to write handwriting recognition software under Linux than under PalmOS? Why?

  • I'm actually thinking of using this
    for a few personal databases that I want to
    have availible to me through the day...

    It's not so much of a novelty, but that I don't
    want joe average to stumble upon this before
    it's ready, but I do want to be able to
    run remote tests..... seems like
    a cheap way to alpha test a site....

  • http://208.224.40.114/palm/

    May not have all pics yet; still trying to d/load some. Also, may not be the best quality, working in solaris from school in 8-bit mode. Hope I don't get /.'ed too hard...

    -Will
  • Well, how about using one of those Palm IIIe's? They look pretty swift... and they support flash, right? They only have 2mb of memory - is that enough?
  • >They don't have to, unless you ask, you GPL >commie.

    From the GPL license:

    3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable
    form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

    a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed
    under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

    b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more
    than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the
    corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium
    customarily used for software interchange; or,

    c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This
    alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or
    executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
    ------------------------------

    I don't have to ask...*they* must tell me how to get it.


    > And what are you gonna do with the code
    > anyway?

    None of your fucking business!
  • My first full time paying computer job was programming on a system that was very similar to this one: A Plexus microcomputer with 1 16Mhz 68000 and a few megs of RAM, runing System III.

    We had a half dozen people working on that machine, and didn't thing it was too limited to to useful work.

  • Managed to get all of them except for the Web Server one. If anyone can get this, e-mail me at wlverine@nospam.nac.net and I'll try to put it up. Also, I forgot that I'd also put up in that dir the pics of the color PalmOS demo from a week or two ago.

    -Will

    Remove "nospam." from my e-mail address or else it won't work, genius.
  • Next time read more carefully. If you want the kernel source, feel free to download it from www.uclinux.com. They did NOT make the kernel here, they are using the uclinux projects kernel.
  • Seems kind of silly to talk about "Competition for CE" as WindowsCE is currently getting its ass kicked by the OS that ships with the Palm.
  • you nead the modified co-pilot becouse the regular
    virtion is missing parts of the hardware emulation that plam os dosen't need but linux dose.
  • The stock ucLinux kernel doesn't run on windows copilot either. This is because windows copilot searches for specific tags in the ROM that are only there in PalmOS. The linux copilot seems to be better about this, although I have had occasional problems with it not identifying the ROM entry point correctly.
    Another thing peculiar about the PalmOS flash memory is a 32K write-protected area at the beginning, used to store the serial number, and probably some proprietary stuff. I don't know whether this ucLinux-derivative OS avoids this area, or if they have a custom memory card completely replacing that chip.

  • Sounds cool [NOT]. Try to type kill -9 (or perl )on your silkscreen. They must be masochistic.

    I often use my PalmIII with Ricochet [denver.co.us] as a terminal to read mail at home or build software at work. Typing "kill -9" never was a problem with graffitti.

  • Both exist in PalmOS in some hacky and unusable for "normal" developer way -- this is why PalmOS networking can't work with my Metricom/Ricochet modem in "star mode" and has to use PPP emulation.
  • Any palm III or higher (except a visor or the IIIe special edition) has flashable ROM. This contains a smallrom [not to be replaced unless you REALLY know what you're doing] with minimal boot and debugger code, and a largerom, which contains everything in the smallrom plus an OS and the built-in apps. The rom image, I assume, is only a largerom image and not a widerom (small+large). Thus, if you reset with the up key held down you'd boot back into Palm's smallrom and could reflash back to your old largerom (if you'd kept a copy).
  • Why the hell does everyone think this guy's site is funny? I thought it was the fucking lamest thing I'd seen on the web in a long time. And its not even 'funny lame', its just plain 'lame lame'. I even saw someplace that wrote an entire article about it. Must have been a slow day in the idiot wing of the office... -Mindcrym
  • Palm has a true multitasking kernel (AMX). Unfortunately, their license forbids them from giving you the multitasking API. You can use the features, however, if you pay AMX $5000. Or, hackers who don't care about publishing what they've done could just hack into it and not get caught. But we don't have any of those around here, now, do we?

    A lot of the power of the linux kernel is page files and swap space and all that jazz. If your volatile and nonvolatile storage are identical, well, as people have already said, there's just not much point.
  • Have you seen the sp t1700 [symbol.com]? PalmOS-based, with 802.11. Also, there should be several wireless lan Handspring cards coming out soon, including a bluetooth one from widComm.

  • Any site that can talk HTTP/1.1 provides information in the header of each document requested indicating whether or not it should be cached. Rob could use this information to programmaticly determine whether or not to cache a given site without asking a human. See RFC-2068 for details.

  • WinCE is as much windows as Windows 98/NT. CE, 98 and NT have different codebases, with shared code in varying degrees. I'm curious, what do you mean when you refer to "windows"?
  • Well, it may be TECHNICALLY feasible, but ROM is a piece of hardware, so if you were planning on having your own customized ROM chips made, you'd require a fabrication plant of some sort to stamp out the chip.

    That is true for the Palm IIIe, but the other Palms have flash ROM. Switching to linux should just involve a quick flash.

    --

  • From the GPL [fsf.org]:

    3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it,under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

    a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

    b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

    c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)

    The source code for a work means the preferred form of the work for making modifications to it. For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable. However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable.

    If distribution of executable or object code is made by offering access to copy from a designated place, then offering equivalent access to copy the source code from the same place counts as distribution of the source code, even though third parties are not compelled to copy the source along with the object code.

    IF, as I understand it (and I haven't checked, as the server is busy), they are not distributing source with their ROM image, nor giving instruction on how to obtain a physical copy of the source, nor placing source code in the directory from which you download the source. Note that part (c) of the above doesn't apply if they have modified the source. It only applies if they are mirroring the binary image, essentially.

    As to the question of what the original poster is going to do with the source, who cares? He has a right to it under the GPL. If he wants it, he must be given it. If they can't give out the source, then they can't distribute their image.

    Now, IANAL and I'm not a member of the GPL gestapo, but the original poster was right (assuming they really aren't offering source). Due to the /. effect it's not possible for me to check the veracity of his statement, so the above may be for naught.

  • That's what EPROMs are for. EPROM burners aren't all that expensive.

    You could also build a replacement for the PALM ROM that contained a smaller loader ROM that did nothing more than talk to the PC and a larger amount of RAM to hold the new OS.

    This isn't a particularly new concept. In the old Apple ][+, you could load a new OS into a RAM card that replaced the original OS installed in the ROM that came with the system. This didn't work exactly like what I mention above, but you get the idea...
  • Their claim that it's a uClinux-based kernel, and especially their claim that it's binary compatible with PalmOS apps, seems to indicate that they've made kernel modifications. They've got a link (currently quite slashdotted) to a ROM image including said kernel. So they're distributing a modified GPL'ed program: where's the source code?
  • Very cool that linux also runs on a palm. Now the next problem is what type of applications to run on it. It will probably take some time before small enough productivity apps are developed. Also there is the problem of supporting all the mostly propietary communication stuff that usually runs on top of a palm computer.
  • The original Palm Pilots had their OS in ROM, but the newer ones (Palm 3 and up I believe) have the OS in flash. If you put a copy of Linux on your
    Palm, make sure you save the original copy of the OS if you ever want to revert back.
    Speaking of which, is there a flash utility that runs under Linux so that you can revert back?
  • If I gave my palm ethernet access..and put ucLinux on there, is there any small HTTP server available I could run on it?

    Might be interesting to try out...

    EC

  • Will this run on Handspring Visor? (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I know the visor is compatible with palm os stuff...Does that mean it uses the same processor? Or it is compatible via some sort of emulation. If they use processors with the same instruction sets and similar devices, wouldn't that make this compatible? Or am I wrong?

    -Cyberllama

  • I think perhaps some of the cooler aplications would be to get a Linux based GUI embedded on systems like o-scopes and logic analyzers where CE seems to have a strangle hold.

    As an embedded systems program who designs "o-scopes and logic analyzers" (well, communications service monitors, which have 'scope and analyzer functions built in) I am very glad to see people saying this.

    Now, make yourselves heard to the marketing people at companies like HP (now Agilent Technologies), Tektronix, Anritsu, Yokigawa, and (if you buy spectrum analzyers or communications service monitors) IFR Systems (my employer). Tell them you'd rather see penguins than broken glass. PLEASE!. They look at me like I'm on drugs when I suggest this (actually, things are getting better, and we are actually considering a Linux-based design within my department. Now, to get approval...)

  • I might buy one, though, if I can easily write applications for it under some OS I happen to actually use. If I can quickly and easily develop applications on my desktop and then simply recompile them for a Palm,

    You can already develop Palm apps on Linux: see the Palm Development HOWTO [orbits.com]. Then you can debug it in XCopilot [cuspy.com] and never actually try it on a handheld until it's finished...

    Now, if you insist on everything being the same as on Linux, meaning you want the Palm to use all the same libraries you're already used to, like Xlib and Gtk, then I think you're going to be disappointed even if you get it. Try this: pick your favorite Gtk program and launch it with --geometry =160x160 and see how well that works... Then try to find the middle-button on your Pilot's mouse!

    Apps for handhelds have to be written differently, because the input and output devices are so different from what's available on desktops and laptops.

  • Close.

    TI-82,83,83+,85 and 86 are based on 6mhz Z80s
    which are 8 bit cpus. Linux is natively 32bit, so have fun converting everything.

    Their memory amounts are too small for Linux at all.

    The TI-89, 92, and 92+ are based on 10 (now 12) mhz M68k Cpus. Specifically, the classic 68000 cpu. No MMU or FPU. So uCLinux would definitely be an option. But these, once you remove TI-OS become fairly useless.

    These also have a lot more memory, but a plain 92 couldn't do it. you'd need a 92+ or an 89.
  • Just tell me *WHY* do you want a keyboard for a palm?

    I've had my palm for a year and a half now, and I love it. The small size and nifty apps have really made a difference. At times (like when travelling), I do, however, want to be able to write larger pieces of text (notetaking during sessions, working on a paper in flight, that kind of thing), and using graffiti is just too much work once you move beyond a few sentences. At the same time, I hate the idea of having to tote around a laptop just to write some text. A psion would fit perfectly here, but I find it too big for everyday use (won't fit my pockets). Having the ability to bring along a small keyboard during travels (esp. one as small as that new one) would mean I still only have to bring the palm with me.

  • The article states that it is binary compatible with PalmOS.
  • If you want to revert back to a PalmOS image, like the 3.3 that just came out, you could follow the instructions as if you interupted the image transfer. It basically puts the palm in a debug state that just sits and waits for an image to be uploaded, the upgrade to 3.3 has full instructions on hoe to do this.
  • We have a rather decent palmtop OS, and now we have to replace it with Linux? Why?

    Remember that sig used frequently here on /. ? (can't think of the guys name): "Don't ask a nerd why, just nod your head and back away slowly".

    For me, that says it all. I for one can't wait to play around with this!
  • >
    > Dear Mr. Dionne,
    >
    > To make things clear, I'd like to introduce myself: I'm CTO of OSK, Inc and
    > work on WindStone Project.

    Got to hear from you...

    >
    > We always thanks you RT-guys' contribution to Linux world. But we need to
    > clarify copyright issues you claims.
    >
    > First, we do not use any code or any binary image from Palm OS rom. We
    > implements all the PalmOS API from scratch. As you know, PIC code has 64K
    > size limits. So we build all the Palm compatibility stuff using other
    > processes and merged them into rom image. WindStonePE, 5k code you have
    > seen, is just a glue that activate these palm stuffs.

    Of course that is just a stub... It's the rest of the code I'm concerened
    about. It looks to be smack in the middle of the uClinux kernel. If you've
    linked Palm code in there, that's a problem. If you've linked proprietary
    code in there, that's a problem. It looks an awful lot like Palm code to
    me... Kenneth can tell for sure. And I'd really love to be completely wrong!

    >
    > This is a point of honor with us. You must point out which part of our rom
    > image from PalmOS rom. Or you commits a serious libel on us.

    Take a look around 0x0000B100 Again around 0x000475E0 Why is this stuff
    in the middle of the kernel? If you tell me that's your GPL'd mods to
    uClinux, that's great! Otherwise it looks like... well, it doesn't look
    good. Make me look like a fool, I really want to be wrong. We have
    to raise the uClinux flag to keep it safe and to keep _us_ from getting
    into trouble if something is not right!

    >
    > Second, I cannot understand your copyright claims. It's our mistake not to
    > refer uClinux project in our press release, but we mention that our product
    > based on "uClinux" in our Product page on web. We will publish our source

    Fair use of the term "uClinux" is using it for things which are derived
    from it (at least that's what I call fair). That applies here. I'd like
    people to help wave that flag... If it's derived from uClinux, please call
    it that.

    > code based on uClinux kernel and you can get the diffs as soon as possible
    > after we clean up the source and make documentation what we have done. The
    > only thing worse than no release is a bad release as you know.

    I agree, others here will (and have) disagreed. But it's inappropriate to
    release binaries only first of previously GPL'd code. That's not allowed.

    >
    > The most wierd part of your claims is that Kenneth and you holds uClinux
    > copyright (in SlashDot). Which kind of copyright do you have in uClinux or

    You may be a little confused by the whole GPL Copyleft thing. Each and every
    person who has worked on a piece of GPL code can (and often do) retain
    copyright on that code. They grant you a license under the terms of the
    GPL, it's still their code. The GPL says you can change it, and you
    can add your own copyright for your changes, and in the end everyone who
    has worked on it owns the copyright. But it's still GPL. Most of the
    patches to Linux that make it uClinux are copyright Kenneth Albanowski
    and D. Jeff Dionne, but the list of contributors (and therefore copyright
    holders) grows all the time :-)

    > even in Linux Kernel. As far as I understand, uClinux is an GPL'd software
    > and we have right to use it in our product in any form if our product has
    > GPL license.

    Yes. That's not the issue.

    >
    > Third, you point out that "All rights reserved" on our splash screen is
    > copyright violation. But this means that other part of WindStone like
    > WindStone PE and WindStone GE does not have open source licences. If this

    No, that's not what the spash screen says. It says, and I quote...

    "WiNDSTONE
    Palm OS clone
    Based on linux kernel 2.0.33

    OSKinc
    (C) 1999 All rights reserved"

    We'd like you to say uClinux (it was a lot of work and we want people to
    know about the project). Even if we want that, you can call it Smelly Dog
    and you're still fine (please don't)! You can add a copyright statement
    for OSKinc, that's fine. But you can't remove the copyright statements that
    print on bootup that others have put there. And lastly, you can't
    reserve all rights, the GPL forbids that.

    > causes misunderstanding that uClinux is our product, then we will modify the

    In the form it's in in your ROM image, it _is_ your product. Please _do_ add
    (C) OSK inc. But it's also mine, and Kenneth's and Alax Cox and Linus and...

    > copyright section on slash to make things clear.
    >
    > With regards,
    > ----
    > Kim, Sung-Ryong
    > http://www.oski.co.kr
    > teoh@oski.co.kr
    >
  • What? Are you serious?

    I've gone through crappy digital organizer after crappy digital organizer (this was not too recent btw) and I have to say, all I really want is something portable with a bit of power that I can hack. The palm cost enough that I wouldn't THINK about buying one if I couldn't run Linux on it.

    In fact, to date, the only PDA that looks reasonably useful to me is the Sony Viaio (or however you spell it ;) The little pentium-powered handheld sublaptop. So you say, "but it's not a PDA". WHO CARES? It's what I want. A little system that can do some processing on the road, that I can uplink to my main computers.

    End of story

  • Porting it to my aging yet still useful HP-71B would be interesting. :-)
    --
  • In fact, to date, the only PDA that looks reasonably useful to me is the Sony Viaio (or however you spell it ;) The little pentium-powered handheld sublaptop. So you say, "but it's not a PDA". WHO CARES? It's what I want. A little system that can do some processing on the road, that I can uplink to my main computers.

    The Vaio's a nice machine, but it hasn't crossed the size quantum. There are three sizes of computers that are interesting: ``it sits on my desk,'' ``it fits in a backpack,'' and ``it fits in a pocket.''

    Now I've got big pockets, but the tinier Vaio still doesn't fit in them. And the keyboard is so small that my thumbs rub together when I'm on the home row. Also, it doesn't have a serial port, only USB (which means you can't use Ricochet with it.) (The bigger Vaio has a plug-on port-replicator thingy that gives you a serial port, but not the smaller version.)

  • First of all, the point is not to *replace* palmOS. The reason to port Linux to the palmtop is the same as the reason it's being ported to the mac, alpha, etc...

    Linux is a cool OS and it's cool to see what you can make it run on. If linux on the palmtop ever actually becomes usefull, it will probably be what I use if/when I get a palmtop. It would be a good development for everyone.

    I don't think anyone will be saying 'you have to use linux!', I think it will just allow users more freedom of choice.

    P.S. They will probably come up with a new UI which doesn't involve typing or X. Which would also be good--more freedom of choice. I say go for it, and then port the UI back to the desktop and see what happens.
  • You should request it. That's the only thing required by the GPL, that you can GET it if you request it. Period..
  • That's a very simple change, as they can simply throw a given binary type at a program. See the changes made for Linux to nativly run Java classfiles. It doesn;t really, it just throws them at the JVM.

    They HAVE a system that runs the Pilot binaries that is completely seperate from the OS. Most likely, this is what is happening with pilot binaries.

    Also, they do not need to distribute the changes, they merely need to give you the source IF YOU REQUEST IT. ;-P Most entities are NICE enough to offer them as direct downloads, but it's not a requirment.
  • I wonder what Micros~1's reaction to this will be. Portable, hand held devices are the holy grail of the industry at the moment. As The Great Convergence nears, portable, wireless devices will become increasingly prevalent in our lives. They're basically the next PC platform.

    If Micros~1 doesn't assert their platform dominance early on in this market space, they risk missing the "next big thing", and their precious profit margin.

    I'm curious about the "binary compatibility with PalmOS" that it claims. While I haven't the faintest clue about what it took to port Linux to the Palm, I'd like some more info about this aspect of the technology.

    Also, anyone know about the licencing of the product?

    Anthony

    ^X^X
    Segmentation fault (core dumped)

  • Now what? (Score:3)

    by Basje ( 26968 ) <bas@bloemsaat.org> on Thursday November 11, 1999 @06:07AM (#1542585) Homepage
    What's all this about. First we rant on about windows not being made for palmtops, but for desktops, and now we put Linux on the palmtop.

    Exacly which of the two makes more sense than WinCE does? Graphics mode? (fit that in 8Mb) or the console mode? Sounds cool [NOT]. Try to type kill -9 (or perl )on your silkscreen. They must be masochistic.

    We have a rather decent palmtop OS, and now we have to replace it with Linux? Why?

    ----------------------------------------------

  • not sure if this is the right place for linux (Score:3)

    by infoflux ( 103311 ) on Thursday November 11, 1999 @06:11AM (#1542595) Homepage
    I think that this is kind of excessive. I think that the idea of a GUI Linux for small computers is interesting, but the point is that the reason I don't like CE is it is bloated. PalmOS does a great job at organizing my life, and keeping track of basic info. I don't really thing the nature of the Palm Pilot architecture in general lends itself to power computing or to an environment where a Linux based OS would be advantageous. Now, don't get me wrong, I think this is cool as hell, but more like geek eye candy. I think perhaps some of the cooler aplications would be to get a Linux based GUI embedded on systems like o-scopes and logic analyzers where CE seems to have a strangle hold. Seems to me that using a Linux solution might reduce costs here. Finally, does anyone know if this will work on the Handspring Visor? I'm kind of a sucker for its pretty colors. but I', kind of dismayed by lack of linux support. Is this compatible (since the Visor runs palm OS), and are there any plans of creating Linux software to support uploads/downloads from the visor?
  • Actually, I stand corrected, NO CHANGES are required for a kernel to run binaries thru another program. The CONFIG_BINFMT_MISC entry during compile includes a module that reads a config file that can redirect binaries to applications based on their type. Entries in the configuration file then dictate where to throw them. Example beflow is for Java capabilities:

    ':Java:M::\xca\xfe\xba\xbe::/usr/local/java/bin/ javawrapper'
    support for Java Applets: ':Applet:E::html::/usr/local/java/bin/appletviewer :'
    or the following, if you want to be more selective:
    ':Applet:M::!--applet::/usr/local/java/bin/apple tviewer:'

  • LinuxNT (Score:4)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday November 11, 1999 @08:28AM (#1542604)
    Because some people have the mistaken impression that Linux, like Windows, can be made to fit all roles from tiny little handheld devices to large scale clustered supercomputing. Just because it CAN doesn't mean it is any good at it. Linux on a handheld device is kind of pointless since, like you said, PalmOS does the job much better than Linux ever could. Likewise, if you're really going to build a supercomputer you go to SGI and build a clustered system instead of fscking around with ethernet connections between cubes/nodes. So, basically, people are trying to make Linux into Windows and that is the sad part. NT is excellent for the average user's desktop, Linux is good for advanced unix users and up to mid-range server usage.. workgroup settings, etc. Solaris takes over after that scaling up to near-mainframe level computers, and then you have the dedicated stuff that the average user will never interact with being taken care of by IBM or SGI. I no more want Linux to dominate the desktop and server markets than I want Windows to. Why can't we accept certain OS's have their places and they work best in those places and leave it at that? Use standard, open, interoperable protocols and everyone can talk to everyone without caring what OS they use. That is the OSI 7-layer model!
  • I just dont think the Palm platform is feature laden enough (right now atleast) to fully take advantage of linux..I admit, I still a newbie to linux, but something like that other device mentioned, which had wireless ethernet, 800x600 screen..tablet form factor,USB.. sounds like a much better candidate.. Like other people said, PalmOS does a good job of acting as a personal organizer
  • does that mean it runs all the low level stuff that provides the protocol stacks and such?
  • I'm afraid the plam clue bus had passed me by, but I keep thinking that I should get one. Can someone please explain to me:

    1) Is this something that would be installed over the palm OS ? (ie. you would replace the palm os with this ?)

    2) IF I install something over the plam os, can I re-install the plam os at a later time ?


  • The ROM broke my co-pilot (Score:3)

    by |DaBuzz| ( 33869 ) on Thursday November 11, 1999 @06:13AM (#1542619)
    Well, I was able to get the ROM running on the modified version of co-pilot but when I installed FPSUtil to check out the specs the OS are reporting, my calibration went all haywire ... now I can't even get into the right menu to fix it.

    Another thing I can't figure out is, if it's Palm compatible ... why do they need a modified version of co-pilot? I mean, if it's not gonna work on stock palm hardware (emulated or not), why bother?

    Anyway, it looks cool I guess even if it was dog slow, has a HUGE footprint, and broke my co-pilot when I installed an app.
  • It's only a violation if your download the rom, and then request to see the source, and they don't let you.

    They only have to give out the source code to anybody who asks for it. Using the GPL dosn't meen that you have to give your source code to anybody who asks. Using the GPL meens you have to give the source code to anybody who requests it who you have supplied your product to.
    You can't stop the people who have got the source code off you distributing it in any way they want (within the terms of the GPL)

    Besides, it sounds like the Porting the Kernel is a small part of what they have done. The other modules of their product sound like they have nothing to do with the Linux kernel.
  • I'd disagree. wget or some other sort of client running on the Palm could be very useful for a sync. I have no problem with using HTTP as the underlying protocol for a synchronization. However, that doesn't necessitate having a webserver in your pocket.

    However, I can see where a webserver would be handy in the palm of your hand afterall... for the total geek factor, hook up a bunch of sensors to various parts of your body, maybe add in a webcam (though the Palm certainly doesn't have the CPU speed to drive a webcam effectively), and then someone can live vicariously through you on the web. :)

    Also, I have no problem with having a web *browser* on the Palm. That's what AvantGo is for. AvantGo is a very good browser, considering what it has to work with. (Hint: PalmIIIs only have 2 megs of RAM total.)

    Now, what I'd be interested in is making a wearable computer based on the uCsimm/uCgarden. Most geeks I know have a dead SIMM on their keychain... I'd have a fully-working wearable computer. :) (My idea regarding a wearable is have it as simple as possible, and basically be a thin client. As long as it has ethernet of some sort, preferrably wireless, and the ability to run screen, ircII, TinyFugue, w3m, and some simple PIM-type programs locally, I'm happy.)
    ---
    "'Is not a quine' is not a quine" is a quine.

  • That sounds kind of stupid doesn't it? But keep reading it's not as limited as that. For the sake of brevity I won't go into each detail. I think I'll post an article on my web page with my thoughts on this subject (and I'll go into details). See the links below.

    First I have a PIIIx (4M of ram expandable to 8M and OS3.3), This is one tool I find very useful. I'm also a home automation (HA) enthusiast and I've been pondering/considering using inexpensize items to interface to my HA systems. I have a gameboy, a TI-85, an HP28C, a TRS model 100 and the Palm Pilot. Each has it's limitations, the PIIIx/Visor has several things going for it. But it also has limitations, one of which is you can not task switch an application. You can only do 1 thing with it at a time (this is not a limitation of the processor, I think). By adding multitasking you can send and receive messages (not limited to mail, other types of messages also) run an app, have another app interrupt you to let you know something else is going on (not just appointments or timed todos). If I can get an 802.11 interface connectivity/flexiblity would be further increased. There are still lots of problems to overcome and most of what I am describing sounds very silly but the Palm Pilot provides an simple to use and flexible system to interface to other things. And with the cost of the Visor these devices may just replace the TV remote as a simple device found in just about every home (at least in the US).

    One other thing, has anyone noticed that the Palm Pilots are only a little larger than the report pads used on Star Trek?

    --
    Linux Home Automation - Neil Cherry - ncherry@home.net [mailto]
    http://members.home.net/ncherry [home.net] (Text only)
    http://meltingpot.fortunecity.com/lig htsey/52 [fortunecity.com] (Graphics)


  • Linux on Palm. Great! So what? (Score:3)

    by meckardt ( 113120 ) on Thursday November 11, 1999 @06:19AM (#1542638) Homepage
    This seems like it would be a great idea. But on second thought, what real benifits is it going to give us. The biggest problem with the hand helds is not the OS, it is the interface. Just adding Linux as the underlying operating system isn't going to automatically give us a great interface. And it certainly isn't necessary to a great interface. I've got nothing against Linux, but I can't see that it solves the problem of Palmtop OS's by itself.
    Mike Eckardt
    meckardt@yahoo.nospam.com
    http://www.geocities.com/meckardt
  • CmdrTaco does a good job explaining why this is not done in the /. faq - check it out.

    Of course, another option is when /.ers mirror pages themselves...
  • Since these devices have the OS on the ROM, you need to replace the ROM to replace the OS. Hence the mention of a ROM image in the 'Linux on Palm' article. If you install a replacement over the OS, then getting the original back only requires a reset of the device.
    ----------------------------------------- --

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