CPU Cooling Insanity 319
moonboy
writes "I saw this over at Ars Technica.
This dude submerged his entire motherboard in mineral
oil. As if that weren't enough, he then and got a
5,000 BTU (window?) unit and circulates the oil through the
coils to keep it all cool." Don't expect Gateway to be
offering these any time soon... I suspect it will a bit
more than just void your warranty. It'll probably make
motherboard engineers come to your home under cover of
darkness carrying loaded shotguns :)
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:2)
I actually saw this at a tour of Intel's motherboard factory. It was really weird feeling to see a chain of motherboards in a conveyor belt being taken for a dip. Of course they use de-ionized water, the motherboard itself is not powered yet (duh!), and they immediately go into a dryer after their water bath.
Re:N2 cooling... (Score:2)
Thoughts on water. (Score:2)
You may want to make the 'super cooler' case larger, (so that any water that does devlop will be on the bottom. Then place your mother board on some sort of standoff...ie: expect the water, just work around it.
Then, if you add some sort of valve at the lowest point in your 'super cooler' case, you could then drain off any water condensation that develops. Check with an airplane junkyard or some place like that, pilots have to go through this same sort of stuff all the time.
Re:Silent cooling (Score:2)
Liquid cooling systems are typically used because they are very silent. The only thing I heard of the cooling system where I used to worked before, was a slight sound when the system was just turned off, and the pipes were being filled with liquid.
You don't know what you're talking about (Score:2)
>then says he never had the cover on. Hello,
>covers speed up the airflow, they keep the thing
>COOLER.
Alas, your theory doesn't match up with reality.
Keeping the case on with standard case designs doesn't allow for proper intake or exhaust. What happens is that the air inside gets warmer and warmer. It works as the opposite of an air conditioner -- the fans blow air over the heating element (CPUs) which eventually warms up all the air inside the case.
If you're using a motherboard with temperature sensors you can check it out. My CPUs went up about 10 degrees Celsius with the case on. You definitely notice the difference when you take the cover off -- you can feel the much warmer air escaping.
Actually TRY it some time and note the difference.
How does this work? (Score:3)
Re:What a doofus (Score:3)
On my case (Enlight mid-tower ATX), I get a drop of 5C if I take the front of the case off, and more if I take the side off.
The problem with the front seems to be the stupid little holes that are supposed to let air in for the front case fan are way to small.
If I run everything by the book according to Enlight, the motheboard temperature will be 25C over room temperature, and on warm days that is enough to go over the 50C limit in the BIOS.
Putting an anhydride on the bottom to collect H2O? (Score:3)
That way you could just replace it to remove all the water.
Re:Different liquid for cooling (Score:3)
I would think that the acetone would start attacking the solder mask, plastic packages and seals on the electrolytic capacitors. 3m makes a thermal transfer fluid for electronics called fluorinert.
(see http://www.3m.com/market/in dustrial/fluids/refheat.html [3m.com])This stuff is really expensive. I used it years ago on power amplifiers and it really works. You can submerge the entire circuit without problems and it transfers heat like a champ.
Re:Different liquid for cooling (Score:3)
Re:Conductivity. (Score:4)
If you take for granted that the oil conducts as much as air, you can submerse anything in it you want.
The hard disk is sealed anyway, so no oil could get in there.
And as far as the other parts go, everything that can be exposed to air should be able to be exposed to oil.
I saw another post of someone worrying about a thin layer of oil insulating the jumpers.
Well, for the same part you could worry about a thin layer of air insulating jumpers in a regular setup.
This is really a brilliant idea, since the oil conducts heat much better then air. Maybe one day we'll all have liquid submerged pc's.
Actually, pc-makers would like this, because you'd have to buy the liquid from them, and they could make it impossible to get hold of the liquid unless you're oem, therefore forcing you to return your pc for any upgrade. Finally a way to control us completely, even better then intel's not-so-secret pIII tag.
Subs do it! (Score:5)
http://tdei.sju.edu/tdei/index/eiidx.html
--------------
A Dylan hacker
Overclocker barely escapes death after explosion (Score:5)
Joe Celery was a member of an elite group of computer enthusiasts that call themselves the "3l1t3 0v3rCl0cK3rz Gu1Ld". The group's focus is a technique called "overclocking", which is a technical term for running a system faster than it is rated. Some overclockers do it to save money, but many, like Joe Celery, overclock for fame.
"I started out with a [Intel Corp. Celeron(tm)] 450A [300A processor overclocked to 450MHz," Mr. Celery stated in an exclusive interview from his hospital ward. "Sure, it ran Quake II real fast, but that wasn't enough. So then I tried watercooling."
Using approximately $500 worth of supplies, including copper tubing and a small air conditioner, he managed to get his computer to run as fast as one with a Pentium II chip that cost almost $300 more than his Celeron(tm) processor. It would process millions of instructions per second for as long as an hour before crashing.
He continued, "it was an incredible success. But I just wasn't satisfied. I wanted more." His next exploit involved a stack of Peltier cooling elements, flat devices that electrically transfer heat from one surface to another. The Peltier elements allowed him to crank his watercooling setup another 10%, to match the performance of a Pentium II chip costing $500 more than a stock Celeron. It used only $300 worth of Peltier elements, as well as the original watercooling apparatus.
Celery was markedly silent on how, exactly, he ended up in the hospital. After half an hour of prodding, he finally admitted what his latest creation was: "I tried to cool my system with hydrogen gas. It worked, until my hard drive spun up."
The resultant explosion caused approximately $15,000 worth of damage to Celery's neighbors' homes, notwithstanding the destruction of his own home. Analysts estimate the amount of damage was greater than the damage possible if a Pentium III Xeon chip costing $1000 more than Joe Celery's Celeron(tm) chip was used.
Celery left us with this final comment: "my next computer is going to be a Macintosh."
Grounded? (Score:2)
Re:How Cute (Score:2)
----
Re:Different liquid for cooling (Score:2)
Better use a different container. Acetone will dissolve that styrofoam container instantly.
Overclocking bit... (Score:3)
given, he's got the overclocking info: according
to him, a AMD K6 300Mhz overclocked to 500Mhz
and working fine based on the one shot with
the computer on and the cooling bath going full.
Overkill, but std fans suck. Here's my solution. (Score:2)
Re:Conductivity. (Score:2)
Not just low conductivity. (Score:2)
Re:Hard drives are NOT sealed: Void stickers (Score:2)
This explains the altitude thing mentioned above.
I would also be worried about the prospect of any coolant fluid destroying the integrety of the glue holding the sticker down. But I'm ignorant in this area of chemistry so I don't know if mineral oil would be a problem here.
Re:Another Idea (Score:2)
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:2)
The stuff does wonders for cleaning boards in ultrasonic cleaners. Its magic!
Re:Mercury!!!!!!!!!!! weeeeeee! (Score:2)
The only problem is when they retire, they have to be disposed of in a sealed rubber lined steel drum approved by the EPA. It has been said that one drop of mercury can destroy a whole lake for things like fishing.
Re:Mineral Oil? (Score:2)
Fun with mineral oil (Score:2)
I have heard a story where the joint was poor and not enough oil was in the container (at another location, not where I work!) When another object was under test, the container of the poor connection exploded in a HUGE fireball and the explosion viewed through a window. That must be the reason why high voltage rooms are made of many layers of metal.
Mineral oil is a great conductor of heat. It flows and moves heat away from the source.
Re:And change the wipers while you're at it... (Score:2)
Where to get surplus cases (Score:2)
Who knows, you might be able to fit the air conditioner in the same box and seal the whole contraption. Some of the boxes have jacks on the outside for instrument hookups allready there! Many possibilities! (Be the first on your block to have a computer that is fireproof, armor plated bullet proof, resistant to nuclear blasts, and EMP!)
More than one way to make diamonds (Score:2)
What this means is that it is unwise to take a bandsaw or drill next to slag.
Re:Conductivity. (Score:2)
I wonder what the flashpoint of mineral oil is. I use synthetic oil in my car due to it having a significantly higher flashpoint. I tried to burn Mobil-1 with a propane torch once. An oil that needs at least 75 more degrees to burn is less likely to break down and do evil things.
I must just see extreme conditions. Put it in a demanding application where it cools a poor electrical connection at 5 amps from a 150,000 volt load and it can explode in a colorful fireball. Water will do the same thing too if the hydrogen is allowed to accumulate.
Re:Conductivity. (Score:3)
Re:How about diamond? (Score:3)
Re:Another Idea (Score:3)
I have seen a $450 repair bill for repairing a projection television where a few joints needed soldering. Your repair bill may be calculated with this equation: worth/2 and the justification is "repaired or replaced high voltage power supply." When you can repair ten of these in a day, it is a lucrative business. Nowdays, most devices that have high current areas are better engineered with rivets and extra solder in critical areas.
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:3)
It has quite a protection circuit too, just in case something goes wrong. Since the tube is not much larger than a kitchen blender, an interruption in the water coolant might be unforgiving. There are dozens of flow rate sensors that make sure the water keeps it cool.
The output of the tube is fed into a transformer that is actually copper tubing with flowing distilled water. The final output is the induction coil, or just a few wraps of water cooled copper tubing.
It has analog and digital computers to make adjustments and proper welds. Quite a fun machine. You would not want to ever wear a wedding ring or have your car keys on you if you walk up close to it. It will turn anything metal close to the coil white hot in a second.
Re:Silent cooling (Score:3)
Fun with liquid nitrogen (Score:4)
Yup, he was instantly converted into a deep sleep. Then, we tossed the baby and his bathwater onto the floor in those pretty balls of steam as liquid nitrogen is famous for. The cockroach landed in two peices. He eventually woke up and couldn't find his feet!
Has anyone ever tried to run an electronic circuit in temperatures that cold? I suspect the doped regions of transistors would behave differently and have different gain characterstics. I'm not sure a computer would compute.
Transformer oil (Score:5)
Needless to say, the oil filled transformers are sealed to prevent contamination of the oil and prevent oxidation and cumbustion. If they are ever overheated, the oil tends to break down over time, lose its dielectric properties, and eventually short. Some oil filled transformers have large fans on the heatsinks to keep the oil at reasonable temperatures.
I'm not sure what blend transformer oil is for our applications as we have a contractor repair our damage, but you can get it in 55 gallon drums. I'm sure any other oil, including mineral oil would be just fine in this application (provided moisture does not contaminate the oil over time.)
I could imagine a much "prettier" setup where the case is made of painted iron, closed, sealed, and painted. Then lower the freon pressure in the air conditioner to allow much lower temperatures when the gas expands inside the coils.
Then people might think this is cool and not be offended by the "scraps of styrofoam" and parts laying around everywhere. Looks like a prototype to me...
Re:Silent cooling -- New Macs don't have fans (Score:2)
Basically, ICs were popping off of the board due to thermal expansion/contraction cycles. The field techs were instructed to lift the CPU a couple inches up, then drop it to reseat everything.
When the Apple III was brought back onto the market some months later (IIRC 9 months) it had an impact no greater than a comet the size of a chiuaua's head.
As for the original Mac, it worked alright drawing cold air through the bottom with the low-pressure of hot air rising out of the top. To facilitate this however there was an aftermarket product, which I believe was called the Mac Chimmney. It looked like a tin woodsman's hat, stood a foot or two high, and worked pretty well despite being silly.
Sorry, but that won't work. (Score:3)
Some new HD's are pretty quiet (Score:2)
--
Kryotech, sure, but... (Score:3)
...they don't do it like this. This story isn't so much about the results as it's about some guy pushing the limits of sanity :-)
In fact, this story doesn't even mention how much the guy was able to overclock the damn thing. Can we have that bit of information, please?
--
Silent cooling (Score:3)
This is only half-way on topic, and perhaps it should be on ask-Slashdot, but here goes:
I want the latest and gratest CPU, mainboard, and 3D GFX card AND I want them silent. Less noisy is good, real quiet is better, but what I really, really want is total silence.
That's why this cooling method appealed to me at first -- it looked like it might be really quiet. Fans pushing air around are noisy, but with liquid you avoid that. Then I saw the pump and the air conditioner and figured they'd probably be anything but quiet.
Am I alone in my quest for quiet computing?
--
What about nitrogen (Score:2)
Re:Mercury!!!!!!!!!!! weeeeeee! (Score:2)
Evaporation (Score:2)
Re:N2 cooling... (Score:3)
First, how will the heat be let off. One way is by keeping the system at atmospheric pressure by allowing excess pressure to escape. That would release heat by evaporation (boiling) of the nitrogen. The other way is to keep the system at high pressure to keep all of the nitrogen liquid; the heat would then need to be replaced through a heat exchanger of some sort.
And as for why nitrogen vs. helium, it is much easier to obtain large quantities of liquid nitrogen; liquid helium is more expensive to obtain and requires more-expensive containers to keep it liquid (high pressure) at room temperature.
But since I work in a chemistry laboratory, I have lots of access to liquid N2, but we only have enough liquid He around to cool off the NMR magnets...
Different liquid for cooling (Score:4)
Yes, the stuff smells bad, but it will remain as a liquid (and not get gooey or gelataneous) down much colder than -30 or -40 C... I use dry ice/acetone baths all the time, and it's still very much a liquid at -70C.
It's immiscible with water, so you won't have any water-contamination problems, and any water that hits the cold acetone will instantly freeze.
Although it has a relatively high vapor pressure at room temperature (i.e. it smells bad) the vapor pressure isn't nearly as bad at cold temperatures, and you won't smell it at all. And you won't smell it anyway if you have a cover on the case.
So anyway, you have my vote to use acetone as your cooling fluid.
Re:Silent cooling (Score:2)
http://www.silentsystems.com/
I've also been happy with how quiet IBM harddrives are. Even the 7200rpm ones are very hard to hear.
Re:Silent cooling (Score:2)
Beyond that, I applaud Dr. Freeze for the innovation. It opens up a lot of ideas.
The obvious issues are component installation and upgrade, as shutdown, removal, cleaning, install, and reset of the containment system aren't exactly convenient.
What electrical issues are raised by extending expansion slot connections, ala bus cable extensions? I know that may not be a very good idea where SIMM/DIMM slots are concerned, but (overkill) a vacuum sealed slot cover would be good in keeping the coolant off the slots.
As a more focused approach, what about 5 1/4 inch drive casings for 3.5 inch drives, implementing a similar setup? I have a pair of 10k rpm scsi drives that get HOT.
Coolant flow over just the processor heatsinks is something that I see has been done, as well, but there's applications in that, as well. Come to think of it, that's not a bad idea for something you could plug into an empty 5 1/4 inch slot. small pump and coolant reservoir, transfer tubing to and from a top-sealed heatsink. Heat exhaust could be aided with a heatsink or cooling fan on the reservoir, running hot oil to the front of the chassis for external dispersion, drawing cooler oil from the rear of the reservoir.
Okay. I thought for five minutes. I'm gonna stop now. =)
The whole liquid cooling thang. (Score:3)
Noise:
The a/c unit is noisy. I can't vouch for the garden pump. My original thought was a capillary system, which wouldn't work well with viscous coolants. Well, not at any kind of speed. You could get a capillary system to work, but you could spoon it faster. I'd think submerging the pump as well would silence it fairly effectively, not to mention the a/c unit.
Coolants:
There have been several ideas for this tossed about, including freon and liquid nitrogen. The problem with those? Maintaining the coolant system, and keeping it loaded. Alcohol would work, except for the 'Great Balls of Fire' factor. What about synthetic motor oils? The ones with lower viscosity ratings, or geared for high heat environments, would be a better bet. The thermal transfer qualities are undoubtedly higher than those of the mineral oil.
'Son, have you seen those two quarts of 10w/30 I bought for your mom's car?'
"Uh, no, Dad, sorry."
One reply to my original post suggested an enamel casing. Taking this a step further, why not sheath the motherboard in clear flexible rubber or latex (Trojan condoms, eat yer heart out), and doing some fancy work around the expansion and memory slot, and then injecting coolant in one corner, and drain it from the other? I'd think this would lend itself better to a more managable self contained environment, that makes upgrades easier to cope with.
Alternatives to that still include submersing the entire motherboard, but using some kind of bus cable extender to give you use of the expansion slots, and some funky modification to 'ram expanders' to raise your memory chips out of the goop.
I'm still rather keen on the singular application of an enclosed reservoir and circulation mechanism cooling just the processor heat sink, in a kit just the right size to fit in an 5 1/4 inch drive bay.
Still thinking.
Re:Another Idea (Score:2)
Re:Mineral Oil? (Score:2)
Re:How does this work? (Score:3)
The bottom of the page says he's working on the second iteration, which will submerge the coils completely and resolve the condensation problem, so yeah, he must be getting some water in there, and is apparently aware of it.
Since oil & water don't mix, it's likely that a small amount of water in the system wouldn't be much of a problem, as the thin layer of oil covering everything (eeeeww...) would probably insulate the components well enough. But run the thing long enough, and you'd have a gallon of water in the thing, and that might be a bit much...
If it was me, I'd send it back in under warranty (oozing oil all over the place) just to hear the response...
Re:Prototype = function testing (Score:2)
Re:Kryotech, sure, but... (Score:2)
matguy
Net. Admin.
Witness a Dying Slashdot (Score:3)
Anyone here remember when Slashdot readers used to have a sense of humor? Does anyone here remember when the absolute in technical accuracy (and spelling correctness) weren't required by posters? How many people here have viewed Slashdot for more than a year?
Okay, I expect this post to be moderated down to a (-1, Offtopic), and, you know what, I don't really care! If I have to, to get my point across, I'll post this damned reply to every submitted article here. I want people to remember.
I remember when the whole moderation thing was up for debate. Remember that? The loudest of us were so ticked off because of MEEPT (probably one of the greatest joys here at Slashdot) and "First!" posters.
What have we now? Someone makes a humorous post, and it gets a negative mark. Someone makes an obscure mark (The Seymour Cray remark above), and it gets moderated down and up because some clueless newbies can't make the connection or don't deem it "news-worthy".
I, for one, think that this "cure" is worse than the "disease". Moderation has gotten out of control. Feelings are getting hurt, and Slashdot is turning into MSNBC.com or ZDnet, or some other place where only "good" feedback is reported (by default). Look what we've lost! Those of you who think we have won a "real" news source, you probably think that when Macromedia releases a new 42.7megabyte version of Flash so that you can download a rotating daisy animation, the web has "won", too.
Okay, so maybe I'm not ESR, maybe I'm not RMS, maybe I'm not anyone other than someone who really happens to believe in Open Source as more than a buzzword or a way of getting people to contribute free code. No one blesses my words, but if you truly understand, they won't have to. At least hear me out.
Offtopic, am I? Maybe I am, maybe you can't see the connection. This has gotten way out-of-hand, and Slashdot has sold its soul to the public, the masses, the same people that bitch when Open Source upgrades are "late", that bitch when Linus releases bug fixes immediately, "making" them have to upgrade their kernel every few weeks, the same people that whine when their ISPs won't install FrontPage extensions because they lack the mental endurance to learn HTML.
In short, SlashDot has sold out. Maybe we should start moderating articles and banner ads and links while we're at it? I realize this is Rob's site, but he led us to believe him a visionary, one who was one of Us, one who wouldn't sell out. If he were, moderation would either be unheard of or would be across-the-board for posters as well as readers.
For those of you who remember, let's all have a moment of silence as Slashdot passes from a mature forum in which humour and knowledge resounded side-by-side, to a kindergarten where only people with Gold Stars get their posts shown to new viewers and those of us who don't have cookie-enabled browsers (I'm a Lynx user, 70% of the time).
I'm very saddened by this, and I'll miss Slashdot a lot. It's a sad thing when Slashdot turns away the very target market that caused it to grow to its large size in the first place. Slashdot is now chic and trendy just like Slate or Wired.
We all worried that Slashdot would turn into Usenet. It seems that it's drifting towards the very opposite extreme. While, yes, the posts are still viewable, they get branded as "unsuitable". Now they get branded "why" they are "unsuitable".
So, call me a (-1, Offtopic), and just see if I give a flying fsck. Slashdot is dead. It has sold its soul. Perhaps we'll start seeing Kiplinger "Hacker" backpack ads or Microsoft Ergo-mouse banner ads at the top of the pages now?
Those of you in power who remember, I urge you to turn back this trend before you lie in sick disgust at what you have been swayed into creating. Or, at least make the default setting to "Moderation Off".
The following sentence is true.
The previous sentence is false.
Re:Mercury!!!!!!!!!!! weeeeeee! (Score:2)
That's what I could think of off the top of my head anyways... ;)
IANAPM (physics major) tho....
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:3)
Copper. Now you don't have pure water either.
What a doofus (Score:3)
It figures... But... (Score:3)
For zillions of years, power-line transformers have been cozily bathing in mineral oil (with or without PCBs).
Somebody was bound to make the breakthrough of adapting that method to computers...
But it I would do such as stunt, I'd simply immerse the whole shebang in a pressurized container with freon, going through a compressor and regulator and evaporator... Just like they do in modern high-speed (electric) train controls...
-- ----------------------------------------------
Vive le logiciel... Libre!!!
Re:How Cute (Score:3)
I currently work for Network Computing Services, a supercomputing center in Minneapolis that used to be part of Cray. A few months ago, we shut off our Cray-2, which use dimmersion cooling: all the components were submerged in florinert that was kept at around 45 degrees farenheit.
Modern Crays just run coolant through metal plates, which cool the chips. Its amusing to think that Cray T3Es are just piles of DEC Alphas hooked together.
You all would do well to look up the history of Seymour Cray and his systems, for a nice perspective on cooling and overclocking.
Re:Water kicks butt, but.. (Score:2)
How about pure alcohol? I don't know what
its freezing point is, but vodka stays liquid
in a normal freezer.
Ahh, a 200 proof vodka cooled computer!
peter
Isn't this stuff denser than water? (Score:2)
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:3)
Silent is good =) (Score:2)
I actually don't know how well mineral oil conducts heat; I do know that water 'stores' quite a bit of heat, but this is not necessarily a bad thing.
If you were to use a large enough bath of mineral oil, the oil will definitely suck up heat as long as it's cooler than the components.
Now you'd need some really seriously weird casing for the system; it would need to be a huge heat sink, with larger surface area than volume, if possible. *Everything* would be in contact with the oil, and the case would then be a heat exchanger...
So like you'd need thin aluminum fins *within* the case and aluminum fins outside the case; you'd need more outside fins because air would conduct heat less efficiently than oil, I think...
For an entire system submerged in mineral oil, you could employ a high torque low velocity fan that makes little noise, because it needn't move fast to move the oil, just move a lot of it. Like maybe 3rpm, or 10rpm, for example.
Then you could have a really low noise cooling system!
Maybe
-AS
Low power CPU => PPC (Score:2)
I hear that Jobs doesn't like fan noise, either, and kept that in consideration with the design of the iMac.
-AS
Re:Water kicks butt, but.. (Score:3)
Someone mentioned that it would freeze, and I'm not sure if anyone knows just how good an *insulator* ice is...
Eventually, if you cool your system below 0C, the entire water bath would become ice...
Some don't see any problem, and I may just be paranoid...
But some components *can* approach or exceed 100C, especially if overclocked... Like CPUs or video card chipsets, I think. Now the problem would be that any ice in contact with warm components will melt, so there are pockets of water within this ice cube... But it's guaranteed that the water will remain at 0C as long as it is in contact with more ice...
However, there is something called a triple point, at which ice, water, and vapor can exist all at once.
If the ice forms a complete seal around the system, it may be possible for there to be ice that goes to water which goes to vapor... And you'd have an extremely bad case of melt-vaporize-condese-freeze, with the accompanying expansion/contraction problems, and I imagine there could be explosive cracking within the ice, much as an ice cube does when dropped into a warm soda...
With fragile components in slots/sockets, this might be very bad =)
-AS
Re:Silent cooling (Score:2)
With no moving parts except for a submerged pump, and the hard drive in oil, you have a modern system about as quiet as the come.
What's the big deal? (Score:2)
Re:Another Idea (Score:4)
>freezer with some kind of humidity control to
>eliminate condensation. That way you could
>overclock the entire system bus.
Essentially, the idea is to replace standard atmosphere with something that conducts heat as well or better and can be cooled more effectively,
AND is inert/non corrosive/non electrically conductive, right? So why not a pure nitrogen atmosphere? Of course, having a sealed unit would be a pain.
Pure antifreeze? Rubbing alcohol? (Things
that wouldn't freeze solid.) (Baby oil == mineral oil plus fragrance.) Of course, the problem with 'water'-cooled anything is the pain of the maintanance.
Re:Overshoot *is* a MB designer (Score:4)
The dielectric constant is not important as a standalone figure. The capacitance is a function of the dielectric constant and the distance between plates. The air (or mineral oil) side of a PCB trace goes some distance before coupling. In fact, the only meaningful coupling increase might be to adjacent traces, creating increased crosstalk. Remember the other side of the trace is looking at about 0.06" of FR4 (dielectric constant of about 5) to the next layer, which should be ground below impedance-controlled traces. The incident-wave height should not change due to this. Changes to the FR4 material's thickness and/or dielectric constant would be much more siginficant.
BTW, this got me thinking about the system's bypass caps, so I checked. Tantalums will only drop in capacitance by about 8% at -40C(or F) and X7R ceramics will be about the same. Z5U ceramics will drop more, but not as much as if they were running at +70F. A quick search gave me no info on low-temp characteristics for electrolytics, but most are spec'd down to -40 or lower.
Hams have done it for years. (Score:2)
Re:Overshoot *is* a MB designer (Score:3)
Mercury!!!!!!!!!!! weeeeeee! (Score:3)
that conducts heat really well...
heh heh
I think the main reason he wanted minral oil was that it didn't freez at -40C. you could only use de-inozed water to cool to 0C. The propertys you want would be: Low freezing point (less then -60C), large heat capacity, and an insulater
---------------
Chad Okere
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:2)
molecules per mole, but it is _something_
Another thing is that unless the water was vacum-sealed, O2 and CO2 would dissolve into the water from the air (and other nasties) and add some impurities, making it conduct and be very slightly acidic.
But I could be wrong.
Re:What a doofus (Score:5)
Mineral oil? It has a very low electrical conductivity; otherwise, the board would short out. However, it also has a very low thermal conductivity, which means the components not directly in the garden pump path are probably net effect being heated.
There's also the pressure problem. What's the MTBF while being hit with 170 gallons/hour? MB components weren't designed, nor were they attached, with that kind of abuse in mind. My suspicion is that he'll get a critical failure inside a week of continuous use.
Conductivity. (Score:3)
It is very interesting indeed, I have water cooled reciently but what are the advantages of submersing the motherboard over just cooling the exterior of the chip? I know the obvious cooling advantage, but is this worth it?
It would be nice to know the results (speed increases, cpu temp etc.)
I could just see the power supply falling in, or even worse the hard drive.
Dr. Ffreeze has more guts than I do.
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:5)
Forget electrical, what about chemical reactions? (Score:5)
Of course you could get to find out how long a PC can run after the PC boards delaminate and the plastic packages melt. After it does quit, you could sell it as high-tech art. I see the potential for making real profit on this!
Low conductivity, but high energy density (Score:3)
A typical application for mineral oil as a coolant is to cool transformers for high-power overland power lines. This technology has been in use for decades.
Re:Isn't this stuff denser than water? (Score:3)
Re:How does this work? (Score:2)
Damn, this is ridiculous :)
--bdj
Re:Conductivity. (Score:2)
--bdj
Re:Another Idea (Score:2)
--bdj
Re:You don't know what you're talking about (Score:2)
Fortunately, many ATX cases ignore that spec and blow air OUT in the back, and some of them even have fans in the front to blow air in. Such designs generally leave the system cooler, since there is proper airflow.
--bdj
Re:Not just low conductivity. (Score:2)
the electolysis! You would end up with a filthy smudge (well
that's what I remember from when I was a kid).
-- Ewald
Re:How does this work? (Score:2)
Well the water will sink to the bottom right where the motherboard is and it will cause mayor problems.
Re:Overshoot *is* a MB designer (Score:2)
For more on this subject, you might want to pick up a copy of Howard Johnson's excellent High Speed Digital Design: A Handbook of Black Magic [prenhall.com]
Bottom line: in high-speed circuits, the space around the conductors (and its dielectric properties) is *very* important even if there aren't any other nearby conductors. Of course, there are -- which is why I mentioned crosstalk, too.
Overshoot *is* a MB designer (Score:5)
Incident waves from the ICs will be smaller and may not make threshold, termination will be mismatched, there will be reflections from every change of layer, signals will take longer to get across the board, you end up with clock skew, and crosstalk will increase.
Most of these effects won't cause immediate failure. Or even frequent failure. Maybe just enough to make the system run like it was on Losedoze.
Re:Silent cooling (Score:2)
Well, I don't know about everybody else, but I've gotten so used to having my box running all the time that I usually can't get to sleep if it's turned off.;-)
Re:N2 cooling... (Score:3)
Definitely true, cost would be ridiculous for using helium. A liter of 3He is about $100,000... but an interesting idea!
The N2 solution would be incredibly less expensive, but still, the required components for containing, cooling, and safety would probably be quite a lot of money!
Think of using something like this with some high-output TEK (Peltier) panels... that would be quite a cool[sic] system.
(NMR.. yummy
Another Idea (Score:5)
If you just wanted to overclock the CPU, you could mount a peltier on the CPU, put a thermistor (sp?) on another part of the CPU, and built a simple thermostat that keeps the CPU at just the right temperator. That way you don't have to worry about condensation if the CPU halts for some reason and the peltier supercools it.
How about inserting the motherboard into a freezer with some kind of humidity control to eliminate condensation. That way you could overclock the entire system
bus.
Interesting concept (Score:3)
A: They could not figure out a way for them to leak oil.
While it may be looked at as cooky, Dr. Freeze might be onto something. This working prototype looks as sloppy as ever, but I'm betting with some more design(and more importantly, testing on not-so-pricey hardware) he could have a cool(but not right now cool lookign)setup.
Yes, I am aware of water (Score:4)
The second box will be completed on Tues I hope (if I stop ICQing everyone AND stop responding to all of my emails).
Dr. Ffreeze
http://www.accsdata.com/DrFfreeze
No. (Score:4)
I have softmenu. Abit BX6 Rev. 2. But I have removed cards and put them back in with no problems.
Dr. Ffreeze
No, just a bit more unstable. :) (Score:5)
I can't wait until I get to work on my site. Work and such. This project was for me and so was the web site. I was just tinkering. I talked about it and no one listened or said that I was crazy. Ok. Not a problem. BLAM. 20,000 in on day! Questions out the wazoo. I will answer all emails but it will take some time. I WILL be updating with some benchmarks (dugh). I will get very detailed if the desire to know is out there. I am still in TESTING. Box 2 Tuesday 5-31-99 should allow for all out AC operation with no worry of condensation. Box 2 will come complete with LID!
Dr. Ffreeze
Doofus is my middle name! (Score:5)
Might I share a bit? "Didn't understand conventional cooling methods, so..." Not true. Not true at all.
True. Very True. I am still in testing. The web page was mostly for my tinkering, otherwise I would (and will) offer MUCH many explinations. The 170 GPH pump is temp. Box 2 will allow the coils to be submerged in the oil.
Pressure? Not when the oil gets cold. It's like Mapel Syrup on a cold Winter day. I knew that I needed TONES of capacity if it were to pump the oil when it got to extreme temps. I was wrong in that the pump (or any for that matter that would fit) is not strong enough. I will have to look at other ways to agitate the oil.
Possible suspicion, but faulse. 3 weeks and running.
Dr. Ffreeze
PS. Not trying to be rude.
I have removed teh cards with no problems... (Score:5)
Thin layer of oil has not caused a problem.
I wanted to overclock my CPU and Video card. Many also overlock the fact that the RAM and therefore the FSB (front side bus) will be able to be overclocked. The lock on Intel sucks though.
Dr. Ffreeze
New info due 6-1 or 6-2 (Score:5)
Some quick info.
Who an I?
Average Joe overclocker, a bit extreem, a dreamer, and a bad spellar.
Why did I do this?
Always wanted to cool it a bit more but hated condensation problems (still have em but not for long). I love to learn and tinker. The concept was simple.
Why do I not tell any good info of cpu or new speed?
Long story short. I have talked about this type of thing for years (even on Tom's list server). No one paid heed unless they said that I was crazy (true). I have my own web page (blah). Out of two years I have about 2,000 hits. Guess who's homepage my site is? Me. So most of them were me hitting my own site. I took some pictures and tried a Kodak digital service. I also was trying to learn some FrontPage98 on a server that supported FrontPage Server Extensions. Posted pics. Mailed pics to Voodoo Extreeme, HarOCP, and talked on Ace's Hardware. No bites except for an offer IF I gave an exclusive. No dice. I wanted any and all to learn, look and question. EverQuest and something else made me have to reformat my drive (forget). This caused me to loose my web site access (new). I started tinker on designing some concrete lined speakers and crossovers. I got home from work and BLAM. 4,600 hits!!!!!! Wow!!!
5 news sites! WOW! Email and tons of it. I started answereing them. I tried to update my site explaining the speed and such but I had problems (still do).Time for bed (I run a 225,000 sq. ft. super store at night). I got up and 11,500 hits!
What the HELL speed are you at?
Retail Celeron 333 MHz
Fan Heatsink 416 MHz
Liquid cooling 416 MHz (WHAT?!?)
The quick is that until I get the coils submerged in box 2 (that I need to start) I will not be able to run the AC non-stop.
What are my Gaols?
See my web site and kick my arse if I don't update it 6-1 or 6-2.
Eamils are all welcome. I will help anyone in similar interests.
I hope this clears some things up,
Dr. Ffreeze
new site
http://www.accsdata.com/drffreeze
old site
http://members.iquest.net/~opto
Use Of Different Liquid (Score:3)
http://members.tripod.com/~Chemo_Gnostic/cryobi
Also, for another similarly mad overclocking example, look at:
http://www.cpusite.examedia.nl/sections/steve/s