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Hardware

No Pre-Installed Windows/Linux Machines on CRN 88

Posted by Hemos from the getting-good-coverage dept.
Rene Pawlitzek writes " This is great news for all Linux and OS/2 lovers. Finally, after many years of pre-installed (and useless) Windows we will be able to buy laptops without any Microsoft operating system. Did the Windows refund day pay off? "
This discussion has been archived. No new comments can be posted.

No Pre-Installed Windows/Linux Machines on CRN More

No Pre-Installed Windows/Linux Machines on CRN

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  • How about the proprietary stuff (MWAVE) (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I just wonder if IBM is going to open up
    now the specs for their MWAVE chip, or if they'll
    tell customers: Well, you can use Linux, but you
    won't be able to access major parts of the
    notebook's functionality.

  • Try this with IBM: (Score:1)

    by Anonymous Coward
    Buy a Thinkpad without an OS or hdd (they will do this with the 770s right now -- I am told by friends in IBM that some resellers have been given non-published codes for 570s, 600s, and 390s with no OS or hdds as well, but that these are generally for integrators and VARs, but that they can be purchased in lots of 1)(and I will post the model numbers if I can find them -- I have asked a number if little blue birdies to whisper in my ear when they have a moment). This will cost a lot less. Spend the money on RAM, but not from IBM (sadly, still too expensive). Call Merisel, Ingram, Western Micro, or AT&T and buy an IBM hdd (they are very good) in the largest capacity you can get for

    Anyway, let me use this as an example:

    Thinkpad 770X model# 954973U(300MHz -- the 366 is only $100 more if you need the power for on-the-fly use of an encrypted filesystem and really large data sets)(no OS, no hdd) $3100.00

    charger $150.00

    CD(IBM) $250.00

    battery (second) $250.00

    256MB RAM (2 DIMMs) $600 -- IBM would want $1200

    14GB IBM hdd $750 -- IBM would want $1400

    So, you get for $5100 what IBM would charge $6500 for and you get a cool machine. As in "I can run three hspice sessions with this 320MB RAM while playing Quake on the LAN -- cool!" And it is a Thinkpad (and IBM stands behind their products a damned sight better than Compaq and Dell)(especially Compaq). And it runs Linux quite well, and the DSP stuff is about to be released (a couple of scruffy blue birdies in Austin are quite pleased) and will easy to decompile on purpose if the source is not released (there are lots of Debian users at IBM and they would like .deb stuff out and understand the need for keeping the Debian people happy). You can spend the ballance on AccelX (which is nice) and a copy of Mathematica (or something -- beer, beer for Linus, a small desktop with a CD burner and an ADSL link to spread the faith with Debian CDs, ...)

    If you want, you can start with a machine closer to $1000 (the 390 line).

    Yes, I like IBM. They have been remarkably less brain-dead than usual and they still make very nice stuff.

    Now if they will just release the port of Linux that was done last summer to an S/390, all of the Token code (including the 155Mb Token Ring, which runs on Cat5 and screams), enough of the SSA code to allow working Linux drivers for the SSA RAID, ditto with the older 25Mb ATM code ...

    Not-Quite-As-Bitter-As-Usual-IBM-Fan
  • If you're just interested in actually running Linux (or FreeBSD, or whatever, thankfully we still have choices) without needing the warm fuzzy feeling of having a multi-billion-dollar corporation tell you it's okay (like I assume many businesses still do), this is nothing new. I've always liked the design of the ThinkPad (IMO, they have the nicest keyboard of all laptops I've seen, and I like the little pointer thingie better than the touchpad, but of course that's subjective), but if you're not bothered by purchasing a computer from a lower-profile vendor, getting a laptop without OS or Microsoft tax has been an option for a while.


    Companies like ARM Computer [armcomputer.com], Chembook [chemusa.com], KeyData [keydata-pc.com], and Ergo Computing [ergo-computing.com] are already willing to sell you a laptop computer with linux-compatible hardware, without any Microsoft software, and without charging you the Microsoft tax. Generally, ditching Windows will save $50-$100.


    Of course, you're on your own to make sure that the hardware they sell is actually compatible with linux, but on the other hand, I get the impression this is easier from these companies anyway because they are more forthcoming with technical specs and because they are too small to push any proprietary crap on their customers (MWave....).


    chad at glendenin dot org

  • That can be said for any operationg system. I always wipe the drive and reinstall Windoze when I'm working with a new computer. Easiest way of getting rid of all the trash software that comes pre-installed. I also repartition the drive, as they usually ship with the whole damn drive as C:.
  • The problem with the ARM platform is software. Most people use their laptops for word processing and spreadsheets while "on the road". WP is available for the StrongArm (if you buy a Netwinder), but no professional-quality spreadsheets are available yet.

    On the other hand, I do agree that the Intel chips burn too much juice. I have been looking at a thin client that uses the IDT Winchip C2 processor (instruction-set-compatible with the Pentium) and it's not all that speedy, but it does work well with Linux, burns less than 1/3rd the power of a Mobile Pentium II (but still twice as much as a StrongArm), and has a floating point processor (a slow one, but still faster than emulating FP in software). This would be an excellent chip for a Linux laptop. It puzzles me that no laptop vendors seem interested in using it, instead going to bigger, more power guzzling technologies that require batteries so heavy that you need a card to carry some of the latest "laptops" (or else you have a bettery life of five minutes). Maybe they figure they need those huge batteries anyhow to power 15.1" LCD displays... or maybe tech geeks just aren't interested in a low-power laptop?



  • Posted by Akira410:

    I think this is a great step in the right direction. I was getting rather tired of having an OS shoved at me. If I wanted it I would go out and purchase it myself. I dont want to be FORCED to use anything ....

    Just my 0.02 worth =)

  • Posted by Akira410:

    Ahh, World Domination.

    How I long for the salty sweet taste of victory in my mouth.

    I see what you're saying about the licensing agreements. Its like receiving a contract with the Signature line on the front "Sign this before reading before the rest of it.."

    type deal ... :o)

    You buy a laptop and turn it on .. Need a few 95 drivers and suddenly you lose your car, house and first born son!

  • Posted by DonR:

    Think of all the money you'll save not having to buy 3d hardware.

    ---
    Donald Roeber

  • Now if we could just get ARM CPUs (Score:3)

    by bluGill ( 862 ) on Wednesday April 28, 1999 @08:36AM (#1912645)

    With linux who needs x86? Unless you plan on using Wine (which is nice, but not useful for more people) x86 with all the power comsumption doesn't make sense. Lets see a laptop with an ARM (strong Arm?) processor.

    Oh, how much you want to bet that someone will release a no-OS system with hardware that linux does not support? (Either a winmodem or a display without xfree86 suppot)

  • technically, it does not need three mouse buttons, buts its a pain to use X11 (the GUI) with only
    two mouse buttons. the only notebooks ive ever
    seen with three mouse buttons are sparc based.

    you can you both buttons to emulate the third,
    but that does work with all applications (blender
    is a good example)
  • Personally, if it came down to buying a $1800 laptop with no OS or an $1805 laptop with Windows pre-installed, I would by the Windows one. Granted, I would probably wipe the drive and Linux and maybe other OS's, but I would have a Windows CD as well. At the very least, they make good coasters, and at most, the OS does have some advantages (even if they aren't technical advantages)!
    Through your logic you would be buying a $5 coaster? I'm glad you don't pay my bills.
  • I hate laptops, they annoy me. However, all laptops are not created equal.

    The Dell ones are decent. Nice screens, although I've had some trouble with the chargers before.

    Compaq Armadas piss me off. If I wanted to assemble my extra peripherals every time I go somewhere, I would have brought some blocks from kindergarten.

    However, the IBM Thinkpads are the best. I just don't have an extra $6000 lying around. Kudos for offering tips on how to get those things cheaper. (I also don't have an extra $5000 lying around, either, but we can dream...)

    And, of course, laptops running Linux are far better than the usual default... but desktops are the best. :)
  • Microsoft has signed a consent decree prohibitting these contracts. It's not that I trust microsoft to obey this, but that IBM is big enough to force the issue. I'd be stunned if IBM pays MS on these.

    Hmm, how to justify a new laptop, when my thinkpad 755 does everything I need . . . hmm, why bother . . . :)

    hawk, who will probably use that 486 with Linux for another couple of years, or at least until he has time to connect it to a network to switch to FreeBSD
  • yes, it is still a barrier. But it isn't too tough to call the same hardware two different lines: "we have the Elephant, and the Cougar." The only difference is a label on the front.
  • I still use it as the main desktop OS on my primary box at home, for example. I have Linux on the firewall box and on my secondary desktop, but it's not where I live most of the time...

    I also know a couple of others locally who still use it at home.

    This OS-less machine trend is a good thing for the more technical user anyway, I think, regardless of the OS they use. I'd rather get the OS in a separate box and install it myself anyway, since that lets me organize the disk the way *I* want to organize it. :-)
    --
    -Rich (OS/2, Linux, Mac, NT, Solaris, FreeBSD, BeOS, and OS2200 user in Bloomington MN)

  • Re:Yes. (Score:1)

    by jd ( 1658 )
    Apparently, a lot of TV and newspaper coverage further towards the south of the US described those who attented the Refund Day as vandals and long-haired drugged-out hippies out to pick a fight. From what I hear, NO mention was ever given of the licence agreement.

    Given that Microsoft and some of the press were trying to pull that kind of spin on things, I'm VERY impressed that things seem to be going in the other direction, now.

  • Easy, give it to her for Mother's Day, or anniversary, or birthday, or just general principles.
  • Any statistics available as to the % of hits on slashdot which come from an OS/2 agent?

    (but that still wouldn't tell much because there are also many linux users who use windows at work to read /.)
  • The quotation is not any less valid because a reason wasn't given. Face it - lots of big companies have a set way of doing things and it takes months or even years to change things.

    Besides, most enterprise financial institutions prefer OS/2 over Linux.

    --
    Timur Tabi
    Remove "nospam_" from email address

  • Linux runs on a small footprint and requires low system resources, making it a good match for notebooks where design space is limited and heat dissipation is a concern, said Paul McNamara, vice president of business development at Red Hat.

    That's right, Linux is so cool that it actually acts as as second heatsink, reducing the temperature of your CPU. (Why do you think our mascot is a penguin?)
    Beer recipe: free! #Source
    Cold pints: $2 #Product

  • The OS/2 user comunity is pretty large actually. My main reason for staying with OS/2 is that it's a working system. That, and the object oriented WPS desktop that is both powerful, flexible and easy to use. No other OS has got a feature that's even close to WPS.
  • I don't really need a laptop right now, but I can afford one and I am willing to buy one of these as soon as they are available just to help validate the demand and support IBM for doing the Right Thing. (hmm, now how to explain this to the wife :-)

    That's easy. just give it to somebody who can't.

    In fact I volunteer.

  • The Thinkpad 600's blue button behaves as a middle mouse button.

  • Even if that always worked, it wouldn't be good enough.

    With X, it is possible to attache functions to combinations of mouse buttons. If you attach something to left-middle, you will have a hard time using it with only two buttons.

  • This is still very good news, but the vendor is probably still paying Microsoft for an OEM copy of windows, which in turn is paid by the consumer. This is a good step in the battle, but the real win comes when Microsoft doesn't earn money from every computer sold, regardless of the operating system installed.

  • Urk! (Score:1)

    by escher ( 3402 )
    My God... I'm gonna have to get a laptop now, and there's no way I can afford one... maybe I should just sell my car and get it over with.

  • I've been using OS/2 since the release of Warp 3.0 in '94. My sister and her husband use it, my brother and his family use it, as well as my parents and grandparents. They are all non-tech so I set them up with OS/2 because I knew I couldn't cope with supporting Windows related problems cross-country.

    After owning an Amiga 2000HD for many years, I refused downgrade my computer expectations and use Windows 3.1 on my first PC(a Pentium 60). One of my friends in college showed me OS/2 and I was quite impressed with what I saw. Win95 was still vapourware at the time, with an ever expanding list of what it would be capable of(of which only half saw the light of day).

    I played with Linux a few of years back, but between a hectic work and school schedule I didn't have the time to devote to an OS that didn't meet my current needs.

    I'm working at a startup company(about a year old), and we're now experimenting with Linux to replace some NT servers. We've recently started to regularly reboot the servers in an effort to head off problems we've been experiencing in NT due to a growing user-base.

    Linux is a great OS for server use, but not yet to par for the end-user with what I've been using since '94, the OOUI (object oriented user interface) WorkPlace Shell being the major factor. Linux is also definitely not to the level that I would be able to support my non-tech family members on.

    That being said, I'm impressed enough with what's been happening with Linux that I plan to have a Linux box or two in my new home(finished June/July). At least one to serve as a firewall[hopefully GTE will have ADSL support in place in my new neighborhood by then :-)]

    I also plan to experiment more with BeOS. I have it installed on a partition of my current system, but the current release doesn't care for my Kensington Turbo Mouse(trackball) so I've not used it much. However, what I have seen in BeOS is quite impressive. The multiple desktops, each with their own resolution/color depth, takes me back to the days of my Amiga with it's concept of Screens. All that's missing is the Amiga's ability to pull a screen down like a window shade, and see both it and the screen behind it :-)

  • They are all legal copies. It would be pathetic to claim I support OS/2 and then give away illegal copies. That would be detrimental to the cause.

    We're about to add one more - my brother's inlaws will soon be running OS/2 as well. They got tired of having '95 crash on them all the time. After seeing the reliability of OS/2 at my brother's, they decided to run it. For them I'm installing a copy of OS/2 3.0 that I won as a door-prize at last years Warpstock [warpstock.org] which was held near where my brother lives in Chicago. This year's will be held in Atlanta. Sadly, having purchased a system with Windows pre-installed, my brother's inlaws will still be counted by Microsoft as "yet another happy windows user" :-(

    I'll have to give the C A [+-] trick a try. Do I need to configure anything first to tell Linux what resolutions/color depths I wish, or does it just step thru what the card is capable of? We're using an old monitor that might not support all the resolutions and frequencies the card can produce.

  • that have full driver support!! The 770 was very close with Redhat 5.2, but the sound stuff IBM packs in aren't supported by anything. Maybe they'll be able to support it and everything will be cool...I don't even care if the docking port or the ultrabay or the freakin thousand other features aren't supported...just gimme some of the basics man! Linux laptops rock!!
    Oh yeah, with linux it ran well over twice as long on a battery as Windows9X :)
  • The library I work for still has a single CD-ROM server that runs Warp 4. Up until the beginning of last semester, we had 10 other boxes with Warp 4 and a single 386 running Warp 3 (!). Unfortunately, most have been migrated to 9x/NT (My supervisor is a Microsoft bigot . . .)

    The CD-ROM server is incredibly stable. It hasn't been rebooted in months . . . the last time we powered it down, it was just to move it to a new location. Plus, it runs more effeciently than NT does on comparable hardware.

    Don't get me wrong -- I'd rather use Linux in most cases. But, it's a darn sight better than NT. I'm sick and tired of rebooting our NT boxes when all 128 megs of RAM are used up with nothing to speak of going on. At least I've managed to bring in a single Linux box . . .
  • I was rather curious as to how they would skirt the issue of how you can have someone agree to a license without reading it at purchase time. Think about it. "By opening this package, you agree to the license terms /inside/ this package". That's essentially what some stickers said! What if it said "I agree to transfer all my worldly posessions to microsoft"?

    I think they just gave in because it's a) difficult to obtain compliance b) legal semantics, and c) let's not forget we had people "rioting" in the street over this issue around the world.

    The people who turned out for refund day deserve a pat on the back. Congratulations people, it's one more step to world domination. ;)



    --
  • Keep your car. I hear they're paying top dollar for a Kindney these days. :P

    -- Give him Head? Be a Beacon?

  • The ideal situation would be if we could buy a system with any OS, or without any OS.

    That way, those of us who wish to do the installation ourselves are free to do so, and those who wish to try something else, but are a little too timid to do the installation can purchase a pre-loaded system.


    --
    Richard R. Klemmer
    WebTrek L.L.C.

  • I use OS/2 also. I've got a Linux box as well, but I, like Mr. Steiner, spend most of my time in OS/2.

    I actually find this an odd question for someone to ask. People ask this question all the time, even here on Slashdot, but few seem to listen to the answers. Oh well.


    --
    Richard R. Klemmer
    WebTrek L.L.C.

  • similar reports have been filtering through to us about MIS depts banning Macs for homeworkers. i used to work in a web dev house where only two people out of 100 were permitted to use Linux on a workstation, on the grounds that the tech support department (who all were competent with Linux, as many internal dev servers were linux) wanted to limit their workload to Mac OS and Win9x/NT. it takes a long time to get Microsoft certified...

  • What are the coresponding figures if you put the newbies in front of computers with the OS and applications already installed?

    Do they find Windows any easier than *nix in these circumstances?

  • I don't know about you, but I like to have floating point capability in my laptop.....
  • This is good news because it means that linux hardware shops will be able to hold of notebook that comes with no "taxes" , and support Linux on the notebooks. Buying a notebook with no OS loaded/supported is OK for experts, but inadequate for newbies, who are used to expecting / seeing some customer support.

    Traditionaly, it is the hardware manufacturer who supports the OS ( NOT MS, Redhat, or whoever ) because the hardware manufacturer has a larger revenue base ( think about it: how much did you pay Redhat and how much did you pay the guy who you got your PC from ? which one can give better support based on what you paid ? )

    Of course, laptops with linux preloaded have been available for some time, so the guys who are giong "wooohhooooo !!! I'll buy one of these now" are really off base. It's one of many small steps in the right direction for linux ...

  • The most "secure" thing about NT is that out of the box, it can hardly run any services. linux can also be given this "security fix" and sometimes it is useful. Firstly, if telnetd (bleh! run sshd instead ... ) , sendmail, ftpd and fingerd are disabled, the risk of an outsider getting a plain text password is minimal. A lot of people unnecessarily run these services.

    Denying use of insecure services to outsiders is a way to keep your box pretty safe ( from the script kiddies anyway ) even if you don't have all of the updates. The script kiddies aren't going to get far with machines that don't run any services ( or worse, machines that are behind a firewall ! )

    -- Donovan

  • Right after I opt for a ThinkPad, IBM says they'll ship laptops sans OS. But seeing as I never so much as saw a Windows startup screen before I wiped/repartitioned/reinstalled my Linux distribution of choice, I s'pose I'm due a refund.
  • Except the 380 and 560. Just pick "standard 3 button PS/2 mouse" and they work like a charm. That fact, along with the full-sized keys (sans Windows9X keys, an added bonus!) made me pick IBM over other models of laptops.

    For Linux on laptops, they're hard to beat, IMHO.


  • I was rather curious as to how they would skirt the issue of how you can have someone agree to a license without reading it at purchase time. Think about it. "By opening this package, you agree to the license terms /inside/ this package"


    AFAIK, these issues have come up before, and have been found to be legally invalid.
  • I didn't see anything in the article saying what kind of price difference there would be between a machine with Windows pre-installed and one with no OS. My guess is that it would be difficult to give too much of a price break considering it would be somewhat of a "specialty item," and we all know that if something is a specialty item it is more expensive than the generic version. Plus you have the cost involved in roducing two versions of a single product rather than just one.

    Personally, if it came down to buying a $1800 laptop with no OS or an $1805 laptop with Windows pre-installed, I would by the Windows one. Granted, I would probably wipe the drive and Linux and maybe other OS's, but I would have a Windows CD as well. At the very least, they make good coasters, and at most, the OS does have some advantages (even if they aren't technical advantages)!
  • Hey, there are /. readers using OS/2 :-)

    I mostly use Linux now, but I still boot into OS/2 a few times a week. I still like the OS/2 shell (Workplace Shell) much better than GNOME or KDE's desktop. I like OS/2 Communicator better than Linux Communicator or Navigator (especially the "search history" feature, which seems to be completely absent in the Linux version).

    The main reason I use Linux is that I like XEmacs much better than normal FSF Emacs, and in OS/2 I only have FSF Emacs. :-( (I have bash, emacs, pgcc, python, XFree86, tf, and plenty of other "unix" stuff for OS/2, but not XEmacs. Argh!)

    I guess I can blame Jamie Zawinski for getting me to switch to Linux. I bet he hates that. ;-)

    - Amit
  • This is great. Look at all the PCs that got hit with the CIH virus. CIH [zdnet.com]
  • I hear the eye banks are looking for donors, too. You only need one eye to see the computer...
  • Wish List:
    -No more X86 processors. Perhaps something like Alpha? I hope?
    -Linux friendly keyboards. Make them just like the Happy Hacking Keyboard.
    -3 button mice
    -Graphic Accelerators and displays that conform to open standards

    And of course, open source drivers with no restrictive crap in their licenses. All that would be worth gold. Are you listening laptop makers? GOLD!!!
  • 1. This idea sucks for Liunux newbies as they (the companies) would give no OS support.

    What do you mean OS Support?
    If I call and ask them "what the start menu does" they'll laugh and hangup.
    But if I called and say "my screen is broken" they will try to fix it.
    However, you do have a point, since many resellers don't know Linux,
    I may call and say "my modem doesn't work" and they would say "prove it!".
    (not understanding what i do, claiming i don't know how to use isapnp or something)

    2. These companies are simply taking the easy way out
    What's the hard way, then?
    Our goal was to get a choice and not being forced to windows, we got it.
    Do you want something else?

    1. Some Linux users would like "world domination".
    This is refferd to a joke made by Linus.
    I'm sorry to say some mean it seriously, but most dont.

    2. Other Linux users don't want to spread Linux to "newbies"
    I recommend newbies not use it sometimes.
    Some would find it too hard and can damage their existing windows partitions.
    Some may find it unusable.
    But I don't consider linux users as "elite".

    Some of the "comlete idiots" will think they know linux without having any experience.
    They won't read any material or seek help, they will try to use it on their own,
    because they knew windows was easy to use.
    They will be buffled when seeing the "login" prompt and get upset.
    They won't know anything to do and think it's because "linux sucks".
    I had the "pleasure" of knowing some of these guys, and I woudn't recommend linux to them.
    One like this had asked me for linux and I had to refuse, I didnt want him to get a bad experience.
    (parading and saying that linux sucks)


    ---
  • Microsoft has signed a consent decree prohibitting these contracts

    Read the consent decree. MS can no longer charge OEMS based on the total number of machines they sell - you are right about that. So, that is not what Microsoft does. Instead, Microsoft licenses OEMs to install Windows on specific product lines, and then charges by the number of machines sold in that product line. To sell a competing operating system, OEMs have to go to the time, trouble, and expense of creating an entirely new product line (which is no small undertaking given the bureaucracy of large OEMs).

    For desktop systems, the end result is the same. The consent decree was a legal fiction. The reality is fundamentally unchanged for ordinary users. Don't try to argue with me unless you can tell me what OEM you worked for where things were different (I worked for Gateway).
  • "We've had several large enterprise accounts send directives that under no circumstances is Linux to be loaded on any of their systems," said Mark Romanowski...

    Who, and more importantly, why? The who is important if it is, say, Microsoft that requested that. The why is more important. Is it the lack of key application(s)? Is it corporate fear and doubt of anything new? Or is it the Linux-specific fears about suport, device drivers, somebody to sue, etc.?

    Without reason or explanation, this quote seems pretty weak.
  • I can now buy a laptop!
    I never bought a laptop before as I didn't want to see Microsoft get hold of any of my money and I didn't have the time and effort to go for a refund. Hopefully this is just one more step towards choice.

  • Driver support (Score:3)

    by skip277 ( 24541 ) on Wednesday April 28, 1999 @08:32AM (#1912689) Homepage
    I think the best thing that will come of this is that vendors will start thinking about what hardware they put in their machines. The article said:

    "But one stumbling block for VARs working with Linux on notebooks is that driver support is hard to come by, he said.


    "We end up having to go back and create drivers that are backwards compatible with the hardware," said Augustin."

    Maybe they'll think about this in the future and go with vendors for whose hardware there is already support or nudge them into creating drivers.

    Dreaming of a world where all my hardware works. :-)

    Skippy
  • Corporations tend to be motivated by

    a) politics
    b) money

    Banks requiring that Linux not be loaded is
    probably mostly b) motivated.

    Tech support is the most costly component of
    a computer system for a large corporation. This
    may not make sense to those of you who haven't
    seen the insides of large corporations, but if
    a secretary cannot use his e-mail, he will call
    tech support, and take up real, live technician
    time figuring out what's going on before he
    reboots, occasionally before he shuts down his
    e-mail. The costs of a call like that are
    twofold: Direct costs associated with the call,
    (tech support utilization, phones, etc. etc.), and
    indirect costs associated with the secretary's
    loss of productivity.

    Most organizations tend to live on the edge in
    terms of available tech support, and system
    functionality. This seems especially to be
    true in banks. (I've only seen the insides of
    a couple retail banks, and one large credit card
    bank, so YMMV.) Given the organizational-wide
    headaches and costs of switching from Office '95
    to Office '97, do you really think the COO of
    our friendly financial institution believes that
    Linux will be less work?

    It doesn't matter that Linux types may never call
    tech support, it doesn't matter that they won't
    tell a soul, the thought of the potential costs are frightening.

    With regard to a), many institutions rely on
    internal obfuscation of information to maintain
    privacy, and comply with federal rulings. For
    example, a large bank does not encrypt
    internal e-mail. Despite the fact that upcoming
    merger information may very well be discussed via
    e-mail. Institutions rely on extremely strict
    software controls to allay fears about information
    leaks. In the e-mail scenario above, institutions
    count on it being harder to monitor e-mail with
    win9x than with Unix. (Actually true, although
    obviously an enterprising young geek could monitor
    via windows quite easily.) Bringing in a Unix
    box emphasizes the fact the intranet can be
    a hostile place. This does not feel good to
    a middle manager or COO who spends most of her
    time trying to control the smallest steps of
    corporate procedure.

    In my opinion, it can make sense to limit
    end-user use of non-standard OS'es. (Here
    standard refers to whatever the corporation has
    standardized on.) I don't see a reason to force
    policy choices on MIS departments, however.
    Better to give MIS a feature list, and a budget,
    and leave well enough alone after that.
  • I don't really need a laptop right now, but I can afford one and I am willing to buy one of these as soon as they are available just to help validate the demand and support IBM for doing the Right Thing. (hmm, now how to explain this to the wife :-)
  • Hmm.. if only she wasn't such a M$ drone. She won't know what to do with it. I love her dearly, but she doesn't see anything wrong with windows.
  • I would rather install linux myself than pay to have it installed.

    Reasons:
    1. Choice of distribution.
    2. Configuration from scratch how I like it.

    Downfall:
    Manufacturers may not include linux compliant hardware in this case, though that would be kind of a backwards step anyway.

    Anyway, just a thought.
  • hmm... way too much
  • My dad's Presario 1230 runs about 10 min, before needing a recharge, plus it weighs more than i do! Portable? Yeah Right!

    Anyhoo, I absolutely MUST have one ofthem Laptops. If i don't get the IBM+Linux thinkpad, then i will be forced to find an old 486 notebook (yikes!) and run some small distro on it, (maybe DosLinux on top of DR-DOS?)

    Now if i only had some cash... ahh well. I could always sell some organs.
  • I use all of thos goddamned AOL cd's as Frisbee's, its pretty neat. And i write AOL SUCKS DONKEY C*CK!!! on them with a Sharpie!!! hehe
  • Why? Security. If you install RedHat (or any other distribution) without paying attention to the security updates/alerts, you are basically asking crackers and script kiddies to invade your network. Yes, NT has many more security flaws, and yes, when security holes are found in a Linux distribution, fixes are immediately provided. But that doesn't help if a brain-dead admin or support drone doesn't pay attention to the security alerts.

    The fact is, script kiddies run around, doing constant port scans of LANs, and as soon as a new *nix box appears, they try to get in through whatever well-documented hole they can find. And then use the foothold to snoop around for unencrypted passwords flying across the internal network. Now, if you are a financial institution with millions of dollars of electronic money at stake, do you really want to risk that?

    Of course, the idea that you are any better off security-wise with NT is silly. But hey, at least there's someone to sue! :-)

  • There are several laptops on the market currently which have 3 mouse buttons. Several IBM laptops have them and the new Sony PCG-C1X, which Linus himself booted up for someone in a recent interview.

    There is an interesting story on linuxtoday.com about Clive Sinclair working on a dedicated Linux laptop with an alternative CPU to x86. I would think ARM is the logical choice, but he is interested in low costs and perhaps ARM is still too much money.

    My perfect Linux portable would be a very power efficient machine along the lines of the PCG-C1X with a 1080x1920 HDTV display, same resolution camera, enough slots for GPS, wireless modem, and flash storage. Linux should be able to run off ROM and a flashcard with no hard disk usage. USB supported peripherals such as DVD's, scanners, printers, etc. should all work without too much trouble.
  • I might be able to shed some light on this for you. Where I work we can use Linux on the desktop machines if we provide all of the machine support ourselves, we get no help from tech support, but not on servers or laptops. However no "mission critical" servers run M$ Windows NT either. We run HP UX and Solaris on the mission critical stuff as they are proven, have support, and there is no need to "evaluate" 5 different distro's because all five sysadmins like a different distro. It boils down to support for the OS and internal tech support, there are not a lot of weel trained geeks willing to work for the wages a M$ tech gets paid, it would be an insult. I hope this helps
    ___________________________________________ _____________
    Can We trust the future - Flesh99
  • 3. No one around here can seem to admit that for
    new computer users, Mac OS and M$ Windows are easier to learn, easier to set up and have support that is more accessible "
    You know full well this is a p.o.v. issue. This also isn't a constant. Don't say the above as though it's a immutable fact.

    Actually it's not a p.o.v. issue, you take thirty people who have never used a computer b4 and divide them into groups of ten for each OS, sit them in front of ten identical machines and have them install the OS, heres what will happen, the Mac group will be done first and running 90% seemlessly, the Winblows group will done second and 50% will be running properly, and when both the other groups are done, the Linux group will be trying to figure out what a mount point is. I never said Linux wasn't better, but it is not easy for beginners ( and for the sake of this demonstration you give enough instruction to the users to boot insto the installation and thats it)


    1&2 Were redundant
    3. Come on you can't even get properly working drivers fo M$ OS's how do you expect (espcially someone like Dell who is an assembler not a manufacture) the laptop vendors to get these drivers, write them theirselves, it's not cost effective.

    points 1 and 2 on the second list were trolling i love that deabte. But there are those out there who are serious about taking down M$ for no other reason than they dislike Bill Gates or his business practices, this is like trying to take down the Catholic church because you didn't like how the Pope runs it. There are good reasons for not using M$ product, and there are good reasons to use it, but a crusade against the company make the rest of us look like fanatics not informed computer users/geeks who choose another OS because it's better

    ________________________________________________ ________
    Can We trust the future - Flesh99
  • I really had never thought it from that viewpoint, but no doubt all three systems(provided *nix had Xwindows installed otherwise the answer is obvious) would be just as easy to use and it would come down to (even I hate to say this) how the person thinks, I know people who know how to use Xwindows but wish it was lik MAC and vice versa etc etc. It all depend on how youthink at that point. But without tech support for the OS (Which Dell is thinking about providing) if the system blows up then the newbie is screwed
    _________________________________________ _______________
    Can We trust the future - Flesh99
  • The main question this article does not give a solid answer on is how much are we going to save by purchasing a "blank" laptop. The bigger problems start with:
    1. This idea sucks for Liunux newbies as they (the companies) would give no OS support.

    2. These companies are simply taking the easy way out

    3. You can get laptops with Linux installed from small VAR's that offer support

    4. With the current level of driver development for Linux newer machines will still be out of reach for Linux users

    Some other things I have noticed

    1. Some Linux users would like "world domination"
    (Wouldn't this put Linux in the same place M$
    Windows is now ?)
    2. Other Linux users don't want to spread Linux
    to "newbies"
    (Yes I rant a lot on the divided camps of
    Linux)
    3. No one around here can seem to admit that for
    new computer users, Mac OS and M$ Windows are
    easier to learn, easier to set up and have
    support that is more accessible
    (I use Linux at home and at the office so put
    away your tar and feathers, at least I can
    admit the truth

    ________________________________________________ ________
    Can We trust the future - Flesh99
  • No offense but I was never forced to use anything . Maybe I am beating an old drum but it was never the presence of the OS ( easily remedied ... can we say low level format !! ) on the system . It was the fact that , whether I got the OS or asked for it to be removed before shipping , I still
    PAID     for Bill's little demon ! I don't have a problem with programmers getting paid , but I prefer that programmers got paid when they write something that I want to buy !! I , personally would like to see the antitrust suit directly address the buy-one-pay-all licensing practices of
    Microsoft destroyed .
  • Do you think it would be practicable to receive a computer from , say Compaq , open it up , turn it on , see the license agreement that I have agreed to refuse the license passed on to me ( the user )for use of the software and DEMAND a refund when I ship the computer back to them ?
    Do I dare try ? : )
  • With the release of W2K... As I understand it, the consent decree exempts descendants of NT (on the basis that it had not yet garnered a monopolistic control over the industry at large).

    The consent decree was (and remains) a joke... It puts no practical limits or restraints on Microsoft's licensing that they can't step around or find a loophole.
  • "If you install RedHat (or any other distribution) without paying attention to the security updates/alerts, you are basically asking crackers and script kiddies to invade your network."

    As opposed to an NT installation, where the security updates/alerts are not quickly and obviously brought to your attention? The only reason that people see NT as more secure is that M$ doesn't publish security hole info so you can plug the hole.

    Here's a clue: If you install any OS on a networked system without paying attention to the security updates/alerts, you are basically asking crackers and script kiddies to invade your network.

    If you're clueless, you're gonna get screwed regardless of which OS you pick. If you're smart, you'll pick the OS that reduces your chances of getting screwed, by providing you with the information you need.

    Incidentally, as for someone to sue...
    from the M$ EULA:
    LIMITATION OF LIABILITY. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, IN NO EVENT SHALL MICROSOFT OR ITS SUPPLIERS BE LIABLE FOR ANY SPECIAL, INCIDENTAL, INDIRECT, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES WHATSOEVER (INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, DAMAGES FOR LOSS OF BUSINESS PROFITS, BUSINESS INTERRUPTION, LOSS OF BUSINESS INFORMATION, OR ANY OTHER PECUNIARY LOSS) ARISING OUT OF THE USE OF OR INABILITY TO USE THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT OR THE PROVISION OF OR FAILURE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT SERVICES, EVEN IF MICROSOFT HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES. IN ANY CASE, MICROSOFT'S ENTIRE LIABILITY UNDER ANY PROVISION OF THIS EULA SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE GREATER OF THE AMOUNT ACTUALLY PAID BY YOU FOR THE SOFTWARE PRODUCT OR U.S.$5.00
  • From what I have read about Red Hat Linux on Dell they charge more to linux installed in place of windows 98/nt. So the difference in price could possibly be non-existent.

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