Proposed New York Law Could Require Background Checks Before Buying 3D Printers (news10.com) 102
A new law is being considered by New York's state legislature, reports a local news outlet. "if passed, will require anyone buying a 3D printer to pass a background check. If you can't legally own a firearm, you won't be able to buy one of these printers..."
It is illegal to print most gun parts in New York. Attorney Greg Rinckey believes the proposal is an overreach. "I think this is also gonna face some constitutional problems. I mean, it really comes down to a legal parsing of what are you printing and at what point is it technically a firearm?"
[Ascent Fabrication owner Joe] Fairley thinks lawmakers should shift their focus on those partial gun kits that produce the metal firing components. Another possibility is to require printer manufacturers to install software that prevents gun parts from being printed. "They would need to agree on some algorithm to look at the part and say nope, that is a gun component, you're not allowed to print that part somehow," said Fairley. "But I feel like it would be extremely difficult to get to that point."
[Ascent Fabrication owner Joe] Fairley thinks lawmakers should shift their focus on those partial gun kits that produce the metal firing components. Another possibility is to require printer manufacturers to install software that prevents gun parts from being printed. "They would need to agree on some algorithm to look at the part and say nope, that is a gun component, you're not allowed to print that part somehow," said Fairley. "But I feel like it would be extremely difficult to get to that point."
wow (Score:4, Insightful)
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I'm all for gun laws but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Is NYC going to outlaw woodworking as well cause you know... bows and arrows are dangerous. They are fighting against the tide.
Agreed. While this wouldn't apply to me as I (a) don't live in NY, (b) actually can pass a background check, and (c) don't own a 3D printer. But, in any case, I have zero interest in printing guns or gun parts and I imagine a lot of people wouldn't either. This seems like banning knitting needles on airplanes *just* 'cause someone might knit an Afghan...
Re:wow (Score:5, Insightful)
Clearly they have no idea. For instance, do they realize that in WW2 simple firearms such as the Sten were often made using little more than a file and a hammer?
Even the Chinese Norinco SKS rifles were often made in small villages with nothing but hand-tools.
Why is it that brainless bureaucreats float to the top of the septic-tank of power?
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You can make a shotgun by just going to home depot.
https://www.offgridweb.com/sur... [offgridweb.com]
Shit, prisoners have made functional firearms when they theoretically have access to none of that.
High school shop classes (Score:2)
High school shop classes need to be banned to prevent kids from learning how to make such simple firearms. Oh wait, they kind of have done this.
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There are some designs out there that are genuinely 3d-printed guns that manage to preserve a reasonably impressive 'hurt the target'/'mangle your fingers' ratio even without needing to step up to $$$$ selective metal sintering printers; but a lot of the popular ones are more a homage to the fact that you can really half-ass the technically-the-gun-for-regulatory-purposes receiver and
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I'm all for gun laws but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. Is NYC going to outlaw woodworking as well cause you know... bows and arrows are dangerous. They are fighting against the tide.
This is a stark example of a stupid solution to look like you are doing something; while being a twofer: doesn’t address the real problem while also being unworkable. As pointed out, deal with the problem by regulating the metal parts that are needed and clearly used for guns.
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Coming soon: Home depot, Lowe's, and Ace Hardware to require background checks prior to purchasing anything made of metal.
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Or, respect the Constitution by not doing this OR that.
Not that New York is likely to consider that an option.
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This is why you should be against gun laws of any kind. When you give the government an inch, they will take a mile. An oppressive government's knee-jerk reaction is to ban, ban, ban. They have no intention of helping anyone, but a disarmed society is an easily controlled one.
Typical for anti gun legislation, redo of Glock (Score:2)
I'm all for gun laws but this is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. .
Many of the gun laws are equally dumb, equally safety theatre, people are merely more familiar with 3D printers than guns.
Universal background checks that look at criminal and mental health history, required safety training, and safe storage are all we really need to address most gun problems. That and end the war on drugs that drives most of the gun related violence.
But 3D printers being part of the problem is classic. It's a spin on the plastic gun hysteria the anti guns folks created when Glocks fi
Re: wow (Score:2)
This will get shot down when the politicians realize how many 3D printers they've bought and sprinkled all around public schools in the name of "STEM"...
Is there any spool of filament you can pass thru a 3D printer that can result in a part that could withstand the forces generated when you fire a round in your 3D printed gun?
Slippery slope (Score:3)
Slippery slope. Next up: background check to buy a personal computer. Soon after: background check to flash your cell phone. Oh, and your encryption keys must be uploaded to a police repository. And you must allow the authorities to install a camera in your bedroom. For the time being you will be permitted to take a shit with your bathroom camera off.
Re:Slippery slope (Score:4, Interesting)
It's not far beyond the imagination. New York, and California for that matter, already show a propensity towards behaving more like Europe and disregarding civil rights. When I went to defcon a few years ago, I learned how fun lockpicking is and went to get my own set of lockpicking tools and practice locks only to find out that all of that stuff is banned here in the Poeple's Republic of California. Even if you're somebody like me with an established history of being a security researcher.
I have a 3d printer as well (bambu lab x1c) and I've been making a lot of stuff that have all of about zero application towards being weapons, most recently to make parts for a still air box that I'm using to chemically treat abalone shells I've picked up while diving off of the coast. If you ban 3d printers, only criminals will have 3d printers.
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New York, and California for that matter, already show a propensity towards behaving more like Europe
Except in Europe no one would shoot a health insurance CEO in the first place because... you know, universal healthcare.
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Instead you need a background check to cut the cheese.
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Bullshit. You do need a certification to butcher the pork because they like to eat it raw.
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You can say that again.
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Yeah, universal healthcare. That'll fix it.
https://nationalpost.com/news/... [nationalpost.com]
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New York, and California for that matter, already show a propensity towards behaving more like Europe and disregarding civil rights
Don't want to pop your bubble but human rights are taken far more seriously in EU than USA. Personal experience, but not only.
Re:Slippery slope (Score:4, Informative)
I've never seen anybody arrested and given a felony conviction for making a joke in the US. That's definitely a thing in the EU.
https://globalfreedomofexpress... [columbia.edu]
And in the EU, the truth isn't an affirmative defense -- bring up something really bad a politician has done in his past, and be prepared to get sued and sent to jail.
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inr... [www.svt.se]
Europeans even consider it to be a terrible thing if the truth were to spread on social media:
https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inr... [www.svt.se]
Machine translation: "Civil rights expert: Dangerous development on everything that is true may spread" That's a pretty fucking broken understanding of civil rights if you ask me. That would be like sending reporters to jail for basically everything they've said about Donald Trump that is true. Yet we don't do that here, that's just a European thing.
Oh yeah, and blaspheme is still a crime in the EU:
https://www.wantedinrome.com/n... [wantedinrome.com]
And not exactly EU, but still Europe, insulting your monarch is a crime:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world... [bbc.com]
Re: (Score:1, Flamebait)
Checked your first link. Wikipedia has this to say: "Meechan received press coverage when he posted a video showing him teaching his girlfriend's dog how to raise its paw in the manner of a Nazi salute, and to react to the phrase "Do you wanna gas the Jews".
Yeah. No doubt you are a piece of shit just like this piece of shit. Please take your slimy rhetoric elsewhere.
There is no universe where teaching a dog to do a nazi salute is not a hate crime.
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And who was the victim of this supposed crime?
Re: Slippery slope (Score:2)
Everyone that clicked on the link called "Watch my dog hold his paw up like a Nazi salute!" And was shocked and offended to find a video of a dog giving a Nazi salute is the victim...
Re: Slippery slope (Score:2)
First of all, I'm actually part Jewish in addition to being one of the most outspoken in their defense on slashdot, second of all, many actual Jewish groups chimed in and came to Meechan's defense on this, because unlike most Europeans, including you, they actually took the time to understand the full details of the case, and unlike you, they actually care about civil rights.
There is no universe where teaching a dog to do a nazi salute is not a hate crime.
Except the only one we're certain exists, because we're actually fucking living in it. Besides, what he did is completely legal here i
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Yeah. No doubt you are a piece of shit just like this piece of shit. Please take your slimy rhetoric elsewhere. There is no universe where teaching a dog to do a nazi salute is not a hate crime.
Thank you for proving the GP correct, that the EU's interpretation of civil rights is so low that words and hand gestures are hate crimes. In more civilized countries words and gestures have to be combined with actual violence, in part, to establish that hate crime nature of the violence.
:-)
Then again, europeans are historically some of the most violent and abusive people on the planet. Maybe they can't be trusted with words and gestures, nor sharp or pointy things, and certainly not firearms.
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words and hand gestures are hate crimes
Correct. For example, Nazi salute is a hate crime in Germany. And you are a self absorbed piece of shit apologist with not grasp of law, much less laws of European countries.
Re: Slippery slope (Score:2)
But it's ok when politicians do it.
https://www.bodylanguagesucces... [bodylanguagesuccess.com]
It's honestly entertaining watching you guys badmouth the US over civil rights and then you defend your own lack thereof.
Re: Slippery slope (Score:2)
You seem to be defining civil rights as only freedom of expression. There are many others, though I don't know how the US and Europe compare on those other issues.
Re: Slippery slope (Score:2)
Freedom of expression is so fundamental. How do you effectively keep the other rights without it? There's little you can do outside of violence without free expression. Even simply not participating is itself expression.
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Even if you're somebody like me with an established history of being a security researcher.
Which is not a legally recognized thing in most cases (a hobby), unlike a locksmith that is licensed and bonded. Maybe a PhD and researching the field of computer security can pull it off, but even that is still iffy.
If you ban 3d printers, only criminals will have 3d printers.
It's not a ban, just a background check and registration, why would anyone honest safety oriented person oppose that? :-)
Seems we always re-fight this... (Score:3)
We have been fighting battles like this since the 1990s, and stuff like the CDA, attempted bans on any cryptography, The Clipper Chip, and many other things. And we are losing. Windows is definitely not a privacy-focused OS. Even MacOS leaves a huge forensic trail with all the hidden folders and files.
Cell phones, even burners, here in the US, you have to provide a social security number for a SIM card, and even that is going away for e-SIMs where one had to beg and plead with the cell company to allow t
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"someone can buy some metal parts, a microcontroller board, some driver ICs, a power supply, some stepper motors, a small heating block, thermisters, and make something that will do the job,"
Yeah, but this certainly cuts down on the number of people who can and will, doesn't it? You can't deny that the barrier for entry to making a ghost gun are incredibly much higher if you have to create the damn printer too, and create it with enough tolerance and precision to make your gun work...
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Slippery slope is a possible fallacy. But your unsupported generalization is a genuine fallacy.
Isn't it just precious when self absorbed internetters make fallacious fallacy arguments?
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Slippery slope is a fallacy.
But the Overton Window is not.
Re: Slippery slope (Score:2)
Next up: background check to buy a personal computer.
Wait until politicians realize that children can access porn from an Internet-connected computer, and the thing that will really help the kids is universal high-speed broadband internet access in the home...
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One of the things taught in criminal justice is that there is a point of diminishing returns. 1800s UK had pretty much every crime be punishable by death. Mao's China was similar. There is a point where once the penalties are so sky high, people just ignore them.
How about check before buying ammunition? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: How about check before buying ammunition? (Score:2)
You can't 3D print it, but you can make your own ammo, too.
Re: How about check before buying ammunition? (Score:2)
There must be some ingredient that, if controlled, would make it impractical to make ammunition. Saltpeter maybe? Not sure. Note I am not advocating such a policy.
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Make your own slugs: check. Make your own gunpowder: check.
Maybe if you're planning on using a musket, then you could theoretically make the black powder, an explosive. However for modern firearms the power is a propellant not an explosive. It needs to be contained, say in the action/barrel of a rifles and subject to increasing pressure as it burns to work correctly, The rate of all this needing to be quite precise. A much trickier formulation and process. You probably need an honest to god chemist.
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> Well, you can, but it blows up in your face after the first shot.
I'm sorry, but that is simply not correct, and hasn't been for some years now.
People are even making rifled barrels using a 3D-printed mandrel.
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People are even making rifled barrels using a 3D-printed mandrel.
Anything beyond a .22 short? Reliably?
Re: How about check before buying ammunition? (Score:2)
People are even making rifled barrels using a 3D-printed mandrel.
Explain.
What are these gunsmiths 3D printing their mandrels with? What are the barrels they are 3D printing made of?
I once saw a movie where a character (John Malchovic) created a ceramic gun that was undetectable by a metal detector - that's something to worry about.
A gun without a serial number isn't really that big a threat - we can't tie a slug pulled from a body with a particular gun, and the VAST, VAST majority of gun violence is committed with guns that have serial numbers.
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Need a permit to collect your own piss? (black powder)
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Need a permit to collect your own piss? (black powder)
I hope you realize that will only work for muskets.
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And revolvers.
Anything can be a weapon. (Score:2)
In the UK any object counts as a weapon if it is used as a weapon. Likewise, with the onset of 3D printing it will be virtually impossible to police printed content. After all, how would you reliably assess if something is a weapon or not? Shape? You can make a gun that looks like a brick. Guns have springs, locks and trigger mechanisms... but so do a million benign objects. Then what about blades? The government needs to accept that with everyone having fairly cheap access to industrial-grade manufacturing
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UK law isn't that ridiculous. They certainly have offensive weapons laws that cover items whose purpose is purely offensive - flick knives, knuckle dusters and such. But you can buy knives with a utilitarian purpose and you can even carry knives if they meet certain standards and if you have good reason. e.g. you can carry a penknife if the blade is non locking and less than certain length.
And no I don't think the UK would ban 3d printers because it is stupid, unpoliceable and pointless. It's easy to make w
Re: licenses (Score:2)
Re: licenses (Score:2)
Giving the government the power to decide who gets to have kids can lead to some dark paths.
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Actually, Bambu Labs does allow you to install whatever firmware you like on their printers if you are willing to agree that doing so voids any warranties you might have.
And, just like its possible to build a working gun without ever using any kind of computer controlled manufacturing, its also possible to home-brew a 3D printer (or even just a replacement controller for an existing printer) using fully open source software running on open hardware.
Re: Overall a really good thing (Score:2)
According to this study it's 12th:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/l... [forbes.com]
Unacceptable impact on medical cost containment. (Score:2)
Because it is easy for AI to identify gun parts (Score:3)
At its core a gun is a spring release mechanism, which are so common and varied in modern devices that an attempt to prevent home designed firearms is laughably impossible. .22 zip guns out of car antennas and door latches.
In the 70s gang bangers were making
Even though guns have a deep mythos, at least in the USA, they are really simple machines.
To attempt to outlaw the knowledge and tools to make a functional firearm would require regulating power drills and files and pieces of metal, as well as attaching security monitoring to anyone who took metal shop in high school, and definitely anyone with college level machine tool training.
Controlling the manufacture of firearms at the home built level is not a practical goal of any government, nor is it achievable in any developed economy. The only barrier for an individual is the level of effort required to obtain the skills necessary. With the easy availability of low priced machine tools the financial barrier doesn't really exist.
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I can go to Google, find a picture of a gun, open it, hit "print" and my inkjet printer will spit out a nice picture of that gun.
The fear around 3D printed guns is the belief (rightly or wrongly) that its just as easy to download a 3D print file of a gun, open it, hit "print" and get a fully working gun without needing any manufacturing or metal working or machining skills and that its as easy as printing a picture of a gun.
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Honestly, it's not a bad idea to encourage that belief, so the dumbest of murderous printer owners end up in hospital before they hurt anyone else.
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It you have an Intel Ultra AI CPU ... (Score:2)
I can go to Google, find a picture of a gun, open it, hit "print" and my inkjet printer will spit out a nice picture of that gun. The fear around 3D printed guns is the belief (rightly or wrongly) that its just as easy to download a 3D print file of a gun, open it, hit "print" and get a fully working gun without needing any manufacturing or metal working or machining skills and that its as easy as printing a picture of a gun.
It you have an Intel Ultra AI CPU then you can 3D print a working gun from the googled picture. :-)
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Are background checks required for (Score:1)
Recipe for a dumb law (Score:2)
Off the top of my head:
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Sure you can get the parts, but only if you agree to wear a hardened steel GPS ankle bracelet.
We've forgotten (Score:5, Insightful)
The government works for us and it's time they remember that.
Jenifer Rajkumar sponsored this overstep in government regulation. I think it's time she is reminded that she works for the American people as she will be up for re-election soon.
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This is the way.
What about actual machine tools? (Score:1)
How about a vise and a file?
You know you can just buy all kinds of metal stock online, right? Who knows what kind of dangerous stuff you can make in your garage.
Re: (Score:2)
Considering... (Score:1)
Well they should also check this (Score:5, Insightful)
Background checks before buying a 3D printer is hands down the stupidest fucking thing I've heard in a long, long time.
They should also check that you're old enough to drink if you by a set of cups. After all, you could drink alcohol from those cups.
Maybe they should make you pass a background check before you buy tools or a drill because god knows what you could do with those- build bombs, break into homes, just so many possible crimes you could commit with them, right?
Same thing for computers and phones, you can commit a LOT of crimes with those.
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you're not allowed to buy a car because you could be a getaway driver
Going for gold (Score:2)
...in the olympics of stupid ideas
3D printers are used for a LOT of things besides guns, guns are a tiny, tiny minority of their use
Also, lathes, milling machines, even hand files can be used to make guns
Do they want to ban all tools?
Peak stupid has been achieved (Score:2)
"They would need to agree on some algorithm to look at the part and say nope, that is a gun component, you're not allowed to print that part somehow," said Fairley. "But I feel like it would be extremely difficult to get to that point."
Thank goodness no two parts from different things ever look the same.
I print a tube...is it a tube or a gun barrel or is it a hamster feeder or a drain for my sink or a brace for my gaming setup or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or or...
N
Anything to protect CEOs (Score:2)
I always find it funny watching people freak out over the government taking away their rights and then willingly giving them away to billionaires and mega corporations.
Like how the same people who freak out over 15 minutes walkable cities are completely okay with self-driving cars taking over everything. At least as long as they're from Tesla.
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How many murders happen in NYC that don't receive million dollar bounties and city wide manhunts?
This is just another example of the rich trying to prove that if you go after one of *them* you are sure to get punished. Who cares about anyone else.
Politicians (Score:2)
Are idiots. Your mileage will not vary.
Ludicrous (Score:3)
It's trivial to obtain a 3d printer, either whole, or as a kit, or in parts. It is impossible to police. Why are they even doing it? How many 3d printed parts are anything but innocuous? Is the ATF going to classify a printer as a hotend like they define a gun as a receiver? And why are they even doing it? After all, I could use a regular 2d printer to print checks, or banknotes, or fake ids but it would be monumentally fucking stupid to ban inkjets for that reason.
A better & saner approach would be to make it illegal to manufacture, sell, publish, disseminate whatever 3d parts that they don't want made - gun parts, bomb casings or whatever and then prosecute those who do. Not only could they prosecute people doing it with printers, but also with injection moulding, die casting, CNC or whatever.
Do something. This is something. So do it (Score:2)
Politicians are driven by a desire to get publicity by addressing visibly the fears of the population. This fits the bill - as does the equally farcical attempts to enforce age confirmation on porn sites, of course.
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I think in this case it's just stupid and easy to highlight. Anyone earnestly interested in manufacturing functioning guns (that don't explode in their faces) could buy stuff in the hardware store and do it. e.g. some nut finds a box of shotgun shells would have no trouble making a slamfire gun out of piping or a booby trap with block of wood, rubber bands and some bits of nail.
Or if they were super serious about making an actual gun, then just buy a lathe and a bending press, maybe a CNC and do it that way
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This is a settled issue in the US. (Score:1)
The liberal states are wasting taxpayer money trying to pass laws like this. The federal court system has been very clear.
More seriously, there was a recent court case, championed by US c
No sighting - at least declared - in the UK (Score:2)
We have very robust restrictions on guns and none on 3D printers that I'm aware of. Yet we don't seem to have the problem that this proposal is seeking to address.
this is just silly (Score:3)
"Have you ever... (Score:2)
Why dont they ban (Score:2)
CNC milling machines and lathes while your at it. Don't forget 3D printing services. The cat is out of the bag on 3D printers, you can't stop someone from acquireing one even if you do enact laws. Someone who is malicious won't care about laws and can easily circumvent them. But if it makes you feel good, New York, then do it.