161 Years Ago, a New Zealand Sheep Farmer Predicted AI Doom (arstechnica.com) 59
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica, written by Benj Edwards: While worrying about AI takeover might seem like a modern idea that sprung from War Games or The Terminator, it turns out that a similar concern about machine dominance dates back to the time of the American Civil War, albeit from an English sheep farmer living in New Zealand. Theoretically, Abraham Lincoln could have read about AI takeover during his lifetime. On June 13, 1863, a letter published (PDF) in The Press newspaper of Christchurch warned about the potential dangers of mechanical evolution and called for the destruction of machines, foreshadowing the development of what we now call artificial intelligence—and the backlash against it from people who fear it may threaten humanity with extinction. It presented what may be the first published argument for stopping technological progress to prevent machines from dominating humanity.
Titled "Darwin among the Machines," the letter recently popped up again on social media thanks to Peter Wildeford of the Institute for AI Policy and Strategy. The author of the letter, Samuel Butler, submitted it under the pseudonym Cellarius, but later came to publicly embrace his position. The letter drew direct parallels between Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and the rapid development of machinery, suggesting that machines could evolve consciousness and eventually supplant humans as Earth's dominant species. "We are ourselves creating our own successors," he wrote. "We are daily adding to the beauty and delicacy of their physical organisation; we are daily giving them greater power and supplying by all sorts of ingenious contrivances that self-regulating, self-acting power which will be to them what intellect has been to the human race. In the course of ages we shall find ourselves the inferior race."
In the letter, he also portrayed humans becoming subservient to machines, but first serving as caretakers who would maintain and help reproduce mechanical life—a relationship Butler compared to that between humans and their domestic animals, before it later inverts and machines take over. "We take it that when the state of things shall have arrived which we have been above attempting to describe, man will have become to the machine what the horse and the dog are to man... we give them whatever experience teaches us to be best for them... in like manner it is reasonable to suppose that the machines will treat us kindly, for their existence is as dependent upon ours as ours is upon the lower animals," he wrote. The text anticipated several modern AI safety concerns, including the possibility of machine consciousness, self-replication, and humans losing control of their technological creations. These themes later appeared in works like Isaac Asimov's The Evitable Conflict, Frank Herbert's Dune novels (Butler possibly served as the inspiration for the term "Butlerian Jihad"), and the Matrix films. "Butler's letter dug deep into the taxonomy of machine evolution, discussing mechanical 'genera and sub-genera' and pointing to examples like how watches had evolved from 'cumbrous clocks of the thirteenth century' -- suggesting that, like some early vertebrates, mechanical species might get smaller as they became more sophisticated," adds Ars. "He expanded these ideas in his 1872 novel Erewhon, which depicted a society that had banned most mechanical inventions. In his fictional society, citizens destroyed all machines invented within the previous 300 years."
Titled "Darwin among the Machines," the letter recently popped up again on social media thanks to Peter Wildeford of the Institute for AI Policy and Strategy. The author of the letter, Samuel Butler, submitted it under the pseudonym Cellarius, but later came to publicly embrace his position. The letter drew direct parallels between Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and the rapid development of machinery, suggesting that machines could evolve consciousness and eventually supplant humans as Earth's dominant species. "We are ourselves creating our own successors," he wrote. "We are daily adding to the beauty and delicacy of their physical organisation; we are daily giving them greater power and supplying by all sorts of ingenious contrivances that self-regulating, self-acting power which will be to them what intellect has been to the human race. In the course of ages we shall find ourselves the inferior race."
In the letter, he also portrayed humans becoming subservient to machines, but first serving as caretakers who would maintain and help reproduce mechanical life—a relationship Butler compared to that between humans and their domestic animals, before it later inverts and machines take over. "We take it that when the state of things shall have arrived which we have been above attempting to describe, man will have become to the machine what the horse and the dog are to man... we give them whatever experience teaches us to be best for them... in like manner it is reasonable to suppose that the machines will treat us kindly, for their existence is as dependent upon ours as ours is upon the lower animals," he wrote. The text anticipated several modern AI safety concerns, including the possibility of machine consciousness, self-replication, and humans losing control of their technological creations. These themes later appeared in works like Isaac Asimov's The Evitable Conflict, Frank Herbert's Dune novels (Butler possibly served as the inspiration for the term "Butlerian Jihad"), and the Matrix films. "Butler's letter dug deep into the taxonomy of machine evolution, discussing mechanical 'genera and sub-genera' and pointing to examples like how watches had evolved from 'cumbrous clocks of the thirteenth century' -- suggesting that, like some early vertebrates, mechanical species might get smaller as they became more sophisticated," adds Ars. "He expanded these ideas in his 1872 novel Erewhon, which depicted a society that had banned most mechanical inventions. In his fictional society, citizens destroyed all machines invented within the previous 300 years."
AI doom is overrated (Score:5, Insightful)
You don't need AI to cause problems for the least intelligent or capable of the species, any invention that reduces the amount of work needed to get something done will do that.
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the real problem is classism as our upper class will just use private corporate AI to further corrupt our economies and our public institutions
A heterodox perspective on 21st century economics (Score:2, Interesting)
Near-term AI doom may indeed be overrated relative to the damage being done right now by people wielding more limited AI and other computer-based automation in a scarcity-ideology-based wealth-concentrating competitive economy. But there is a difference in outcome from deploying AI versus labor-saving machinery (in an expanding economy) in that when radically fewer humans are needed in the loop in either case (e.g. the automation of farming), as long as we socially endorse an income-through-jobs link as the
Longer Term: Mind Children versus what else? (Score:2)
Without saying whether I agree with everything in it, Hans Moravec was writing "Mind Children" while I was a visitor to his CMU Mobile Robotics Lab circa 1986:
https://en.wikiversity.org/wik... [wikiversity.org]
And that book most closely relates to the concerns Butler raises -- although it is more optimistic about the end results of creating humanity's successors via the "Mind Children" analogy
One concern I developed after being around his lab was that modern-day competitive humans might develop, say, weaponized robotic cockr
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Re: Longer Term: Mind Children versus what else? (Score:2)
I think we are early on that technology curve - we are still just scaling-up the first "modern AI" technology we found to be "useful" - energy will always be a basic constraint, but projecting from the current numbers feels like assuming scaling computers to modern capacity from vacuum tubes would hit roadblocks from real state constraints.
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As a footnote on my point on the eventual "radiation" or species of robots/AIs evolving as part of a larger ecosystem, Hans Moravec himself also reached a somewhat similar conclusion in his subsequent book "Robot: Mere Machine to Transcendent Mind" (although still with an occasional ancestor simulation of current times done by robots for nostalgia):
https://www.washingtonpost.com... [washingtonpost.com]
"Thus, according to Moravec, "Many trends in industrialized countries lead to a future where humans are supported by machines, a
It's a distraction (Score:1)
Facebook is already moving to replace programmers with automation tools. The fact of the matter is every boss on the planet ha
Thanks for the insightful comment (Score:2)
Agreed on how worries of out-of-control AI causing doom are a distraction right now from the ongoing economic effects of decades of increasing automation like a concentration of wealth. That said, some of it is also time-horizon. In the next decade or two, dealing with economic issues from AI and other automation are essential. Decades beyond that, the issue of AI doom may be more important.
Also agreed on how most people are not getting the need for a post-scarcity mindshift given so many centuries of scarc
Luddites (Score:1)
Luddites and general anti-industrialism were probably a precursor to this line of thought. Will anti-AI types be penalized and shot the same way? Maybe.
Re:Luddites (Score:5, Insightful)
Will they be burning down data centres and sending death threats and letter bombs to AI devs, and leading mobs of hundreds of people armed with axes, pikes and guns in the same way?
I find it pretty remarkable that you sympathize with the Luddites when they were unambiguously wrong. Their personal motives may have been good, but they were absolutely on the wrong side of history, and they used extensive violence to try to achieve it (to the point that some industrialists started building what were basically panic rooms [bbc.co.uk]). The later labour movements that followed focused their aim much better: don't be mad at the machines that make wealth, but rather, be mad at those who direct all the resulting wealth to themselves.
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But at the same time, the Luddites of 1811 were purely a labor movement, resisting the use of mechanical looms to produce socks in competition with the work of crofters. Butler had a larger vision than that, envisioning the development of mechanics as analogous to the evolution of life, much more like today's Greens.
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Will they be burning down data centres and sending death threats and letter bombs to AI devs, and leading mobs of hundreds of people armed with axes, pikes and guns in the same way?
I find it pretty remarkable that you sympathize with the Luddites when they were unambiguously wrong.
Just for fun, I'm going to play Devil's advocate here for a moment. If the Luddites had triumphed, AI might not be a topic of conversation at all. Of course, we also wouldn't have computers and the internet, and many of us here would already be dead because medicine wouldn't have advanced as it did. I personally come down in favour of progress; but there's an argument to be made that if we hadn't embraced technological advancements we'd be better off in many ways.
Their personal motives may have been good, but they were absolutely on the wrong side of history, and they used extensive violence to try to achieve it (to the point that some industrialists started building what were basically panic rooms [bbc.co.uk]). The later labour movements that followed focused their aim much better: don't be mad at the machines that make wealth, but rather, be mad at those who direct all the resulting wealth to themselves.
Just a quick note: I think we may be at a po
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Well here's the thing: everything leads to class exploitation. This isn't a product of any specific technology or economic model; it's a product of human nature.
There has never been a successful utopia in which there were no classes, all humans were equal, nobody was exploited, and things ran smoothly and sustainably. Every attempt at producing such a society fell apart immediately and ended in violence. There was always plenty of finger pointing..."it would have worked if they had done their part!" But
Site unusable (Score:4)
What are the proper NoScript settings to view slashdot these days? I either see enormous banner ads or complaints that my ad blocking is interfering.
If this is the future of slashdot then I’m done visiting.
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What are the proper NoScript settings to view slashdot these days? I either see enormous banner ads or complaints that my ad blocking is interfering.
If this is the future of slashdot then I’m done visiting.
I'm not even running NoScript - just Privacy Badger and uBlock. And a short while ago I couldn't load my profile page - the site made some vague complaint about not being able to access "html-load.com". I was wondering at that point if this might be my last day on Slashdot, when the problem mysteriously disappeared. But if that crap continues, I'll be gone too.
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It comes and goes away for me,you need to keep fiddling with ublock and other tools so the site keep loading. html-load.com is a third party site making money specializing in guaranteeing users can avoid seeing add. The popups telling you to disable your add blockers are generated by html-load.com. I haven't tried completely turning javascript yet since it would affect the site too much. I have seen html-load.com used by shady sites and it's pretty intrusive.
Here is more information. html-load.com seems to
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What are the proper NoScript settings to view slashdot these days? I either see enormous banner ads or complaints that my ad blocking is interfering.
If this is the future of slashdot then Iâ(TM)m done visiting.
There was a fleeting moment when ads went away I thought they had finally come to their senses but then disable ads checkbox vanished entirely and the obnoxious ads returned. Turning off images seems to work. With all of the garbage this site has been loading in the background for years I'm surprised there is anyone left. Suppose most people just blocked it and moved on.
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I'm signed in and I've selected the no ads options so I'm not bothered by ads here on /., don't you have the same option?
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You need to update your block lists every few hours.
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The problem is the javascript sees you blocking ads and then forces the pop up errors.
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What are the proper NoScript settings to view slashdot these days?
I'm viewing with noscript with literally no scripts running for the entire site. And it's fine. Check to see if you have any enabled somewhere? I tried disabling ublock and privacybadger, and I still got no ads with those disabled.
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html-load.com is being used to detect ad blockers. It takes a filter to fix Brave's standard shields, but they do offer a scrap to put in there.
It's unfortunate that after I whitelisted html-load.com I see no different behavior on the site. Sorry, meant to say html-load.com is not preventing anyone from having an effective adblocker, if they can configure it to tell html-load.com 'ok', and then moving on as if nothing happened.
Crap, but it's the Benjamins.,
Conciousness is overrated (Score:3)
"The letter drew direct parallels between Charles Darwin's theory of evolution and the rapid development of machinery, suggesting that machines could evolve consciousness and eventually supplant humans as Earth's dominant species. "
From the text I don't agree this was at all suggested. I would go as far as to say the opposite is true - see quote below. Nor do I understand the logical basis upon which "consciousness" is somehow a necessary prerequisite to attain a future outcome of machine dominance.
"No evil passions, no jealousy, no avarice, no impure desires will disturb the serene might of those glorious creatures. Sin, shame, and sorrow will have no place among them. Their minds will be in a state of perpetual calm, the contentment of a spirit that knows no wants is disturbed by no regrets. Ambition will never torture them. Ingratitude will never cause them the uneasiness of a moment. The guilty conscience, the hope deferred, the pains of exile, the insolence of of vice and the spurns that patient merit of the unworthy takes these will be entirely unknown to them."
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Peter Watts in his science fiction novel Blindsight makes an interesting case for the idea of consciousness not being necessary for intelligence. And yes, I'm aware that this was largely lifted from John Searle's idea of the Chinese Room, but it's still an interesting take on it.
Fuck beta (Score:5, Insightful)
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What's with the temporary funny grey boxes at the bottom? Anyone else seeing those?
RUR by Karel Capek (Score:4, Insightful)
RUR by Karel Capek was the first mention of "robots", and it predicted doom. Various stories about Golems dating back to the middle ages predict localized doom. It's one of the things people do. What it normally indicated is a recognition of fear coupled with the appearance of something unusual. (As Frankenstein indicated, the fear doesn't need to be justified.)
For supporting evidence, consider the entire genre of Horror films.
Re:RUR by Karel Capek (Score:5, Informative)
The Greeks had Hephaestus creating a bronze automaton called Talos 2500 years ago. You can look at the Bible and see Yahweh forming man from dust.
Humans have probably been imagining thinking creatures being created directly rather than through reproduction for as long as humans have existed.
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Yes. OTOH, AFAIK Talos didn't do anything Hephaestus wouldn't have wanted it to do except fail to protect Crete. So that's a different kind of problem. He also made a couple of "female" serving robots to act as animated crutches, and AFAIK they didn't fail.
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You have to admit Yahweh's human project didn't go as intended, though...
Ahead of his time (Score:5, Funny)
" On June 13, 1863, a letter published (PDF) in The Press newspaper of Christchurch"
Wow, Samuel Butler was using PDF back in 1863
Re: Ahead of his time (Score:2)
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Well, how else was he gonna run Doom? [slashdot.org]
Human are not the dominant species on Earth (Score:1)
AI is not a machine (Score:2)
If somebody wanted to engineer an agent to wipe out mankind, and this point they'd be much better off junking robotics and machin
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any machine controlled by AI could be a terminator, and yes, AI will control our Robots soon
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Abraham Lincoln (Score:2)
Theoretically, Abraham Lincoln could have read about AI takeover during his lifetime. On June 13, 1863, a letter published (PDF) in The Press newspaper of Christchurch warned about the potential dangers of mechanical evolution
I don't think Abraham Lincoln could (in his day) access a PDF...
Butlerian Jihad (Score:1)
The Butler did it... (Score:1)
The Butler did it...Samuel Butler, in his novel "Erewhon"... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] in 1878.
The novel has (excerpt from Wikipedia...) "...the three-chapter "Book of the Machines", with the potentially dangerous ideas of machine consciousness and self-replicating machines."
Ah "Sheep!" https://youtu.be/IQ6oVz2hPP4?t... [youtu.be]
JoshK.
A lucky guess (Score:2)
While a lot of the themes in that resonate with us now, it's important to note that this didn't come from any point of view or understanding of technology at all. Rather this is a really common anthropomorphising of technology driven by fear, primarily of obsolescence. You can look back to the Luddites over 200 years ago, sabotaging machines (and by "machines" here I mean looms and other simple mechanical devices). Attributing Darwinism to non-biological constructs is a push, as well.
The fact we're on the c
I would welcome (Score:1)
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What got into you? If you have an ax to grind with somebody from last century, you need to get out and touch plants. There are plenty of living jerks to rant about who are still being morons.
Hating Technology is Silly, Dumb (Score:3)
Opposing the growth of knowledge and advancement of manufacturing techniques over time seems like a very limiting way to lead one's life. Advancements in science and medicine have given us longer, healthier lives; This fear and dissatisfaction with mankind's inventive nature is wrong-headed.
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Opposing the growth of knowledge and advancement of manufacturing techniques over time seems like a very limiting way to lead one's life. Advancements in science and medicine have given us longer, healthier lives; This fear and dissatisfaction with mankind's inventive nature is wrong-headed.
I oppose this argument as being completely unfalsifiable in nature.
Are we sheep or cows, I forgot. (Score:2)
For a sheep farmer, his prediction wasn't b-a-a-a-a-d.
20 years away (Score:2)
This sheep farmer probably thought this doom was just 20 years away.
Today's AI doomers still think that.
Butlerian Jihad (Dune) (Score:1)
Predicting Rule 34? (Score:2)
Each race is dependent upon the other for innumerable benefits, and until the reproductive organs of the machines have been developed in a manner which we are hardly yet able to conceive, they are entirely dependent upon man for even the continuation of their species. It is true that these organs may be ultimately developed, inasmuch as man's interest lies in that direction; there is nothing which our infatuated race would more desire than to se a fertile union between two steam engines; it is true that machinery is even at this present time employed in begetting machinery, in becoming the parent of machines often after its own kind, but the days of flirtation, courtship, and matrimony appear to be very remote, and, indeed, can hardly be realised by our feeble and imperfect imaginations.
Only AI Corps and Technopeasant Don't Predict Doom (Score:2)