Framework's Software and Firmware Have Been a Mess (arstechnica.com) 18
Framework, the company known for designing and selling upgradeable, modular laptops, has struggled with providing up-to-date software for its products. Ars Technica's Andrew Cunningham spoke with CEO Nirav Patel to discuss how the company is working on fixing these issues. Longtime Slashdot reader snikulin shares the report: Driver bundles remain un-updated for years after their initial release. BIOS updates go through long and confusing beta processes, keeping users from getting feature improvements, bug fixes, and security updates. In its community support forums, Framework employees, including founder and CEO Nirav Patel, have acknowledged these issues and promised fixes but have remained inconsistent and vague about actual timelines. [...] Patel says Framework has taken steps to improve the update problem, but he admits that the team's initial approach -- supporting existing laptops while also trying to spin up firmware for upcoming launches -- wasn't working. "We started 12th-gen [Intel Framework Laptop] development, basically the 12th-gen team was also handling looking back at 11th-gen [Intel Framework Laptop] to do firmware updates there," Patel told Ars. "And it became clear, especially as we continued to add on more platforms, that just wasn't a sustainable path to proceed on."
Part of the issue is that Framework relies on external companies to put together firmware updates. Some components are provided by Intel, AMD, and other chip companies to all PC companies that use their chips. Others are provided by Insyde, which writes UEFI firmware for Framework and others. And some are handled by Compal, the contract manufacturer that actually produces Framework's systems and has also designed and sold systems for most of the big-name PC companies. As far back as August 2023, Patel has written that the plan is to work with Compal and Insyde to hire dedicated staff to provide better firmware support for Framework laptops. However, the benefits of this arrangement have been slow to reach users. "[Compal] started recruiting on their side towards the end of last year," Patel told Ars. "And now, just at the beginning of this year, we've been able to get that whole team into place and start onboarding them. And especially after Lunar New Year, which is in early February, that team is now up and running at full speed." The goal, Patel says, is to continuously cycle through all of Framework's actively supported laptops, updating each of them one at a time before looping back around and starting the process over again. Functionality-breaking problems and security fixes will take precedence, while additional features and user requests will be lower-priority. ... snikulin adds: "As a recent Framework 13/AMD owner, I can confirm that it does not sleep properly on a default Windows 11 install. When I close the lid in the evening, the battery is dead the next morning. It's interesting to hear from Linus Sebastian (LTT) on the topic because he is a stakeholder in Framework."
Part of the issue is that Framework relies on external companies to put together firmware updates. Some components are provided by Intel, AMD, and other chip companies to all PC companies that use their chips. Others are provided by Insyde, which writes UEFI firmware for Framework and others. And some are handled by Compal, the contract manufacturer that actually produces Framework's systems and has also designed and sold systems for most of the big-name PC companies. As far back as August 2023, Patel has written that the plan is to work with Compal and Insyde to hire dedicated staff to provide better firmware support for Framework laptops. However, the benefits of this arrangement have been slow to reach users. "[Compal] started recruiting on their side towards the end of last year," Patel told Ars. "And now, just at the beginning of this year, we've been able to get that whole team into place and start onboarding them. And especially after Lunar New Year, which is in early February, that team is now up and running at full speed." The goal, Patel says, is to continuously cycle through all of Framework's actively supported laptops, updating each of them one at a time before looping back around and starting the process over again. Functionality-breaking problems and security fixes will take precedence, while additional features and user requests will be lower-priority. ... snikulin adds: "As a recent Framework 13/AMD owner, I can confirm that it does not sleep properly on a default Windows 11 install. When I close the lid in the evening, the battery is dead the next morning. It's interesting to hear from Linus Sebastian (LTT) on the topic because he is a stakeholder in Framework."
Is this a surprise? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
Actually just the opposite, everything is coming from the vendors and you just need to not drag your feed too much in packaging and uploading it to your site. Or from the OS itself, like CPU microcode: https://www.kernel.org/doc/htm... [kernel.org]
Unless you're something like Purism doing your own PureBoot and being engaged in a (losing?) battle with disabling all Intel ME management facilities and similar I don't see where that much effort is needed to support some x86 platform with all relatively standard components.
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The problem isn't just integrating the code from the vendors; it's regression testing against your own codebase for the rest of the firmware and against all other potential configurations. That makes it a much harder hill to climb than you think and there absolutely have been times that microcode coming from a CPU or other chip vendor has been buggy or has behaviours that are unexpected or undesirable.
Would you want a firmware release that'd brick your SSD because of some interaction problem?
Sure the "obvio
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While a lot comes from the major vendors, some of the major vendors actually kind of suck and you absolutely have huge gaps in what they provide.
Particularly with firmware, you get chunks to cover bits and pieces but you have to provide certain bits and pieces. I'm frankly shocked how bad the 'ready to go' firmware even from someone like Insyde or AMI is, who you would *think* would have it pretty well down by now. You can have the most milquetoast combination of predictable components and *still* need to
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Best damn Windows laptop I've used for basically anything that isn't gaming, but I guess the Framework 16 solves that.
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I owned an 11th Gen Framework, which I've since upgraded to the Ryzen 7840. One side effect of upgrading was the "repair" of a port, the result of pulling too hard on a power cable at a bad angle. I've cased the 11th gen board and use it for some virtualization-related labbing, which I can pack up and power from USBC/TBolt hubs.
I replaced the hinges and own a couple of USB A adaptors, an HDMI and D
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Been a Dell laptop user for over a decade... always Latitudes (corp-grade). I love my Framework 13 AMD 7840U. The performance for compute is within a hairs breadth of my overclocked desktop i7-12700K gaming rig and the GPU is more than capable enough for some light gaming.
There are caveats. The keyboard is not quite as good as those Dell laptops I came from and because it's so modular it is a little chonkier than some of the super slim offerings coming from Dell, Lenovo and the like. However, the keyboard i
Not that bad (Score:3, Informative)
It is no where near as bad as these people make it out to be.
The download bundle on the site may have some outdated drivers. But ya know what? Just like literally EVERY other computer in the world, as soon as Windows hits Windows Update, drivers are updated.
Now, I cannot speak for the newer FrameWork laptops, but I was specifically involved with a particular bug in the very first batch of FrameWork laptops, back with the Intel 11th Gen CPUs. There was a fault in the firmware code that the touchpad could shut off the laptop, but due to an odd set of circumstances, Windows and Linux never hit this bug, but FreeBSD did. It took only a couple messages back and forth, they quickly figured out the issue, and released a firmware patch.
As far as the other complaints about sleep mode not working? Yeah, that's a Windows issue, not a FrameWork issue. For instance, I have a Dell laptop that'll just flat out bluescreen attempting to go into sleep mode. It sucks on ALL Windows laptops, that's just how it is.
And about the Intel 12th gen not supporting Thunderbolt? This one is confusing. The 11th gen, while not "certified" Thunderbolt most certainly will use it just fine. If it works on an older laptop, why would it magically be missing from a newer one?
I think there might be a case of user error going on for some of these complaints.
Re:Not that bad (Score:4, Insightful)
Just like literally EVERY other computer in the world
Not sure when you last used a non-framework computer, but that hasn't been the case for quite a while now. My Dell laptop seems to roll out GPU drivers only a week or two after Intel releases them. I get regular BIOS updates. Gigabyte published a BIOS update probably 2-3 weeks after an AGESA update for my motherboard last time I checked (which admittedly was a while ago). Windows Update will often hold back drivers which are part of vendor packages so that doesn't save you here either, you're still reliant on the laptop vendor to release the driver for you.
The 11th gen, while not "certified" Thunderbolt most certainly will use it just fine.
"Fine" is a word used by people without ambition. 11th gen thunderbolt works in the sense that many things will work when plugged in. Not that it works in the sense of meets all the advertised performance criteria. There's no justified reason to put "certified" in quotes, all you've done is demonstrate you don't understand why framework failed the certification process (which is entirely performance based). I don't want my things to work fine. I want them to work perfectly as advertised, that is my minimum criteria and that is why the certification is significant.
Re:Not that bad (Score:4, Informative)
11th was never certified by their own admission on the announcement, and Framework has only recently addressed the firmware issue. They are hiring for Firmware developers, but as much as you and I aren't affected by the patches promised in new firmware, some people are, and they have that right. Framework's reputation in that area is absolutely lacking, and the survival of the company depends on them maintaining that reputation.
I think the takeaway is that they agree that there is an issue, but an apology alone isn't a commitment, and if not for you and me, then they owe it to themselves to address the issues around firmware. There are markets that won't take them seriously until they patch problems that have been public for over a year.
Again, I don't personally care about these things, but I can't make a business case to buy a fleet of devices if they can't provide a solid statement affirming and backing up their commitment to securing their hardware. The moment it would come up, I'd be laughed out.
Please, don't read this as an attack, but more a general plea for the company to get the firmware detail sorted. I want the company to continue to succeed so that I can install a tenth or eleventh-gen Ryzen or whatever. I want to see more maintainable devices in Framework's mold. But they can't stop at a minimum viable product frontloaded with promises.
A mess? (Score:4, Interesting)
Mid-summer is still a few months from now, a few months during which Framework's laptops will continue to go without patches for at least a few in-the-wild security exploits. This timeline also comes from a company that has been extremely bad at meeting its own deadlines for firmware updates.
Sounds like they need more workers.
From what I read, it sounds like while being a small company that they have a lot on their plate because due to the opposition of open source by hardware component companies (they all have NDAs). With open source, you only have to invent the wheel once but with closed source, every company has to do it themselves.
Hardware component companies requiring NDAs to get any technical information on their product is a big problem.
Seems strange to me (Score:1)
I mean, as far as I understand it, the Framework laptops are marketed as "current" Laptops, not retro machines, like that 386 or 8086 laptop that came around recently. I mean they are available with gigabytes of RAM. They are, at least as far as marketing goes, not targeted at the retro-enthusiast.
So why do people complain that they won't run Windows well? If they want a machine that can run Windows, they can get one of those 386 laptops or run it in an emulator or possibly even virtualization. It's like co