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Power

China's Experimental Molten Salt Reactor Receives Operating Licence (scmp.com) 100

Interesting Engineering reports: Chinese authorities have officially given the green light to commission a working thorium-based molten salt nuclear reactor. Currently under construction since 2018, the reactor in question, "Thorium Molten Salt Reactor — Liquid Fuel 1" (TMSR-LF1), is being built at the Hongshagang Industrial Cluster, Wuwei City, Gansu Province.

If successful, the TMSR-LF1 has the potential to open doors for developing and constructing a more extensive demonstration facility by 2030. Additionally, it could lead to constructing a TMSR fuel salt batch pyro-process demonstration facility, which would enable the utilization of the thorium-uranium cycle by the early 2040s...

It runs on a combination of thorium and uranium-235, enriched at 19.75 percent by weight, and can operate at a maximum temperature of 650C for up to 10 years. The liquid fuel design is based on the Molten-Salt Reactor Experiment conducted by Oak Ridge National Laboratory in the 1960s...

China intends to construct a reactor with a capacity of 373 MWt by 2030 if the TMSR-LF1 succeeds.

Thorium is more abundant than uranium, notes the South China Morning Post — and China is thought to have one of the world's largest thorium reserves. But a thorium reactor should also produce less waste, and using molten salts as both a fuel and a coolant "potentially eliminates the need for large quantities of water, which is a significant advantage in areas where water resources are limited."

India has also been pursuing thorium-based nuclear technologies, including MSRs. The Indian Molten Salt Breeder Reactor project, initiated in the 1980s, aimed to develop a thorium-based breeder reactor. However, the project has faced challenges related to materials compatibility, fuel reprocessing and overall system complexity and has not progressed to commercial-scale use...

China reportedly plans to sell small thorium reactors to other countries as part of the Belt and Road Initiative, Beijing's global infrastructure plan.

Thanks to Slashdot reader sonlas for sharing the news.
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China's Experimental Molten Salt Reactor Receives Operating Licence

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  • by Geoffrey.landis ( 926948 ) on Sunday June 25, 2023 @09:41AM (#63630748) Homepage

    Thorium-fueled reactors have been proposed as a good solution to a number of the hard problems with nuclear power, not the least of which is that even enriched thorium can't be diverted to be made into bombs. (This one is apparently only partially Thorium fuel, though.)

    Will be very interested in seeing if this can be made successful, both technically and economically!

    • Re:Thorium reactor (Score:5, Informative)

      by Immerman ( 2627577 ) on Sunday June 25, 2023 @12:34PM (#63631198)

      There's no such thing as enriched thorium. Enrichment is the process by which something fissile like Uranium-235 (0.720%) is concentrated from the much more abundant U-238 (99.3%), since you generally need at least 5% U-235 to be suitable as fuel. Usually using various tricks like centrifuges to help "sift out" the heavier isotopes until until a high enough concentration of the lighter ones is reached.

      Natural occurring Thorium though is already 100.0% the fertile Th-232 we want for reactors, there's no enriching to be done.

    • Re: (Score:3, Troll)

      by gtall ( 79522 )

      Ah, thorium rears its perpetual head in responses about nuclear. If it was all wonderful, we'd already being using it or at least seeing adoption in other countries. We don't because the idea is bollocks.

      • Proponents of Thorium MSRs also explain why the thorium road has ever been taken and the explanations are at least reasonable. You should at least acknowledge their existence and if you want to start a discussion you should start by refuting those with some argument.

    • Re: Thorium reactor (Score:4, Informative)

      by kellymcdonald78 ( 2654789 ) on Sunday June 25, 2023 @03:51PM (#63631576)
      Except that Thorium reactors work by breeding U-233, which can be used in bombs
    • Re:Thorium reactor (Score:5, Interesting)

      by hey! ( 33014 ) on Sunday June 25, 2023 @07:23PM (#63632024) Homepage Journal

      A thorium reactor uses a neutron source (in this case U-235) to transmute non-fissile Thorium-232 to fissile U-233. The U-233 is then fissioned to produce the bulk of the reactor's power.

      Here's the thing about U-233: it is a *very* good material for making nuclear weapons. The idea that the thorium fuel cycle is proliferation-proof comes from the fact that the thorium fuel cycle contaminates its U-233 with U-232, which decays to powerful gamma emitters. Those gamma emitters makes the uranium produced by the fuel cycle awkward to work with. But this is not an insurmountable problem. The US managed to make a few experimental nuclear weapons in the 1960s from thorium-bred U-233.

      The thorium fuel cycle *mainly* solves a hypothetical problem. Suppose we converted the world economy to run *entirely* on uranium fission. We'd run through our viable reserves of uranium in less than a decade. Since thorium is considerably more abundant than uranium (look on the right side of this graph [wikimedia.org] over atomic number 90), a thorium economy could run for closer to a thousand years before possibly dumping us in a new literal dark age.

      Of course we don't run the world on uranium fission because at present generation nuclear plants are uneconomical compared to fossil fuel plants. So it's not really the thorium part of this project per se that's interesting, it's the radically different technology. If this proves to be more economical to operate, it could lead to a shift toward fission power. That'll solve many problems, but if someone tells you there won't be *new* problems created by that transition, they're not being realistic.

      • because at present generation nuclear plants are uneconomical compared to fossil fuel plants.

        Based on all the added costs to keep 1970's design nuclear power plants "safe but uneconomical". Start implementing 2020+ nuclear power plant designs, that are near impossible to meltdown, don't require an extra containment chamber, don't require hear transfer pressurization, and finally streamline safety and environmental impact requirements and studies out of politics, and suddenly nuke plants become much cheaper to implement. No nuke implementation study factors in the environmental damage from "climat

      • a thorium economy could run for closer to a thousand years

        Dark Helmet: The way he runs things, it won't last a hundred.

    • Actually in the Indian case they specifically went this route in order to be able to create nuclear weapons from their plentiful monazite sands. What you do is start with heavy water reactors that generate plutonium, then use the plutonium and uranium in fast breeder reactors to create more plutonium and also convert the thorium to fissile U-233, and finally use a U-233/thorium mix in thermal breeder reactors.

      You may have noticed there's a lot of plutonium being produced and involved in that process... fo

  • How many years does it take to recreate an experiment from the 1960s?
    Per Wikipedia [wikipedia.org]: "This technology was researched through the 1960s, the reactor was constructed by 1964, it went critical in 1965, and was operated until 1969."

    This "project" sounds more like make-work than real science.

    • by thegarbz ( 1787294 ) on Sunday June 25, 2023 @09:48AM (#63630774)

      I like to shit on China as much as the next person but you're comparing a 7MWt test reactor to a 373MWt production reactor. No they aren't comparable. No the existence of the test in 1960 does not magically mean we know everything we need to know about building a functioning production reactor. At no point in history have we ever gone from single research to full production without intermediate research steps.

      This "project" sounds more like make-work than real science.

      Your post sounds more like ignorance than real commentary.

      • On the other hand, the original also demonstrated problems that they didn't yet have solutions for...

        • Are the problems really unsolved or the solutions untested? My understanding was that the US and other nuclear powers preferred reactors that could produce isotopes required for nuclear weapons and thorium salt reactors were only good for producing power and breaking down dangerous radioactive waste into less dangerous radioactive waste.
          • They had potential solutions, but those solutions are untested, so it seems premature to be building the final commercial reactor already instead of another test model.

            • by ceoyoyo ( 59147 )

              From the summary:

              If successful, the TMSR-LF1 has the potential to open doors for developing and constructing a more extensive demonstration facility by 2030.

              It's an experimental reactor (described that way in the headline) that they hope will lead to a demonstration reactor in the future.

          • Physics haven't changed. Are there new alloys that won't suffer degradation? That was the original problem.

            • by laughingskeptic ( 1004414 ) on Sunday June 25, 2023 @12:17PM (#63631150)
              Many materials get their strength from crystalline structures, radiation damages crystalline structures. Neutrons hit nuclei and turn them into lattice destroying bowling balls that cause cascading damage to the lattice. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/... [wikipedia.org] ) So you want to look for materials whose strength does not necessarily depend on undamaged crystalline structures or which can be reliably engineered for a given lifetime. You also want a melting points ~100C above the max critical operating temperature. This 2020 paper looks like a promising line of investigation: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.co... [wiley.com]

              So yes, progress is being made every day on new alloys that could lead to a successful MSR reactor and we have come a long ways since the 1960s. Computers have also improved enough that we can reliably model effects for engineering purposes that they could not hope to do in the 1960s. We can now accurately compute the decline in strength of a material in a radiation environment over a long period of time.
              • Or we could just build the reactor vessel with new and innovative designs and ideas using surplus Boeing carbon fibre rolled into a cylinder in a warehouse with epoxy applied with squeegees, and if anyone points out that it's unsafe go on about our patented real-time vessel health-monitoring system that will prevent any accidents.

                Too soon?

            • Physics do have changed, certainly our understanding of it. Physics are just some rules humans created to explain certain processes, but there is still a lot we don't know how and why it works.
      • by haruchai ( 17472 )

        I first learned about thorium molten salt reactors from talks by Kirk Sorensen.....in 2006.
        It wasn't long before there was a diehard group of thorium fanboys who were pooh-poohing any other kind of renewable energy generation & even any other advanced nuclear.
        Because thorium MSR were supposed to be so safe & easy to construct.
        What a difference a mere 16 years makes...kinda.
        I swear the thorium fanboys make the Commodore Amiga, Apple & Tesla fannutters look perfectly sane.

        • by HiThere ( 15173 )

          Safe? Relatively. Easy? I don't think anybody knowledgeable ever said that. What I find most interesting about them is the claim that you can use them to further burn "spent fission waste products".

          (OTOH, yeah, you can find stupid comments on all sides of every issue.)

          • What I find most interesting about them is the claim that you can use them to further burn "spent fission waste products".
            No one claims that. It is a /. myth, or an American myth with unknown origin.
            It is physically impossible to "burn" fission products. Regardless of reactor type.

            • by HiThere ( 15173 )

              I'm sorry, but did you read what I wrote as saying or implying that it wasn't true? I didn't mean that at all. I meant, literally, that that was the feature of molten salt reactors that I found most interesting. It's not a claim that most other designs make.

              • And that "claim" is a myth.

                No reactor - regardless what technology - can "burn" fission products.

                That is a no brainer. No idea why you believe otherwise.

        • Because thorium MSR were supposed to be so safe & easy to construct.

          I'm not sure whom you were hanging out with, but there's nothing about thorium that makes them easy to construct. Safer yes, the inherent reaction is like that, but nuclear reactors aren't as complex and costly to build because of safety, but rather because splitting atoms in a controlled way is actually hard.

          You weren't having a discussion with anyone sane. Kind of like the people now saying nuclear power is the solution to our climate goals despite the fact that the entire industry with the pathetically f

          • by Anonymous Coward

            I'm not sure whom you were hanging out with, but there's nothing about thorium that makes them easy to construct. Safer yes, the inherent reaction is like that, but nuclear reactors aren't as complex and costly to build because of safety, but rather because splitting atoms in a controlled way is actually hard.

            On the contrary; thorium offers a unique advantage that makes such reactors easier to develop: they can be simulated with low-activity thorium and uranium with external heating in place of fission. All of the relevant chemical processing can be tested with non-radioactive species, and once the reactor itself is polished, it can be filled with the correct fluids, with high confidence of success. It still takes funding though, and that's difficult with the No Reactors Commission in operation.

            LFTR is not magic

            • thorium offers a unique advantage that makes such reactors easier to develop

              So much easier that we haven't successfully done it and ever reactor we've tried has broken down in short order. Look thorium offers some advantages. It also offers some disadvantages. And in neither case will it be a panacea to the nuclear industry.

      • Before the CCP invaded Hong Kong. Now it's another CCP disinfo arm. Take everything they say with a reactor full of salt ...

        • HongKong WAS China before Britain strong armed a 10 year lease. You miserable twerp.
        • Before the CCP invaded Hong Kong. Now it's another CCP disinfo arm. Take everything they say with a reactor full of salt ...

          No need. The fact that the Chinese government has been looking into this is not new. Their nuclear industry has been researching and developing their own reactor designs for decades, some of which have lead to actual production reactors in operation right now.

          Rather than complaining about the source, what part of the actual message do you find disagreeable or controversial? As it stands, TFS could be a press release from Poh Bear himself and yet there would be no reason to doubt what was said.

          • by waspleg ( 316038 )

            They lead the world in coal pollution while lying about green initiatives, shit like this, pandemics, etc.

    • by gweihir ( 88907 )

      This is not about doing the same thing. Material sciences have advanced a lot and simulation techniques basically did not exist back then.

    • There simpley hasn't been much investment in molten salt technology as other technologies were pursued globally. Times change and needs change. China has successfully built a variety of reactor types, including recent completion of a next generation gas reactor. This is just one other leg of their approach to pursue multiple technologies, each which has its own pros and cons.
    • by dwater ( 72834 )

      IINM, they already did all that. That reactor started operating in 2021, and this is supposedly a follow-on from that:
      https://youtu.be/0kahih8RT1k?t... [youtu.be]

  • The term salt covers a lot of compounds.

    And how does the reactor convert that heat to electricity? Most reactors turn water into steam and send it through a turbine, and that steam is condensed back to water through a cooling tower.

    Also 373 MWt isn't that large for a production reactor, the nearest plant to where I live is about 2GW (thermal) which converts to 647MWe

    • by chill ( 34294 )

      Following to an abstract on a related research paper, linked from one of the articles in the summary:

      LiF-BeF2-UF4-ThF4 is used as fuel salt and also carrier salt of the primary loop of TMSR-LF, in which the abundance of Li-7 is 99.995% and the abundance of U-235 is 19.75%, and FNaBe is taken as salt of the second loop.

      https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/molten-salt-reactor [sciencedirect.com]

    • by Anonymous Coward
      If only there was a linked article that showed you exactly. It even has a pretty picture for the reading impaired.
      I guess you'll never know.
  • by gweihir ( 88907 ) on Sunday June 25, 2023 @10:20AM (#63630880)

    So far nobody has really been able to make that approach work, but material sciences have progresses quite a bit. If they actually can make a Thorium reactor work reliably and then make it economically viable, that would be the first real breakthrough in ages. Will probably take 15 to 20 years or so before success or failure becomes clear though.

    • You look at Solar 2 out by Daggett, CA back int the 1990's and subsequent plants built in other countries after Dick Cheney killed the 6 GWs by 2006 project and it seems we know a lot more about handling molten salt than we did in the 1960's. I am sure China has been doing its homework on this subject and figuring out the materials science to make this nuclear reactor work. There are really a lot of things that go into this type of nuclear reactor as Gen IV reactors are obviously a bit more advanced than
      • by HiThere ( 15173 )

        You are sure of a lot of things that are only probably true.
        Even if there's no corruption getting in the way, this is a hugely complex operation, and theoretical analysis can't tell you how it's going to work in operation, or what basic thing everyone overlooked.

        An actually new model is always dangerous. That's why most designs just alter the shape of the tail-fins. This is a new model, and it's got lots of untested (in this situation) features. And it's expensive. But if it works it's a real feather in

        • by gweihir ( 88907 )

          The real problem with nuclear power is that the established ways of doing it are basically all bad in every regard. Part of that will be because the designs are _old_ and never got optimized. Part is that the approaches used may just not really be viable at all, no matter what you change or optimize. A non-established approach that gets a new design may be better in enough aspects to actually make it a good idea. Or not, but you cannot know before it has been built in a real size and run for a few years.

          • The real problem with nuclear power is that the established ways of doing it are basically all bad in every regard. Part of that will be because the designs are _old_ and never got optimized.

            This is simply untrue. There are a lot of newer reactor designs, SMR (small modular reactors) would not even be a thing if what you said is true.

            Luckily the entire world is suddenly waking up and realizing that years of anti-nuclear power propaganda has all been lies, and that you need something as stable as nuclear in [euractiv.com]

            • wind power will not be a thing for much longer as making wind power turbines is deeply unprofitable even when you raise the price substantially [twitter.com].

              You want to hear a fun fact? I submitted a story saying exactly that, back in April of that year [slashdot.org]. It was declined and marked as "Spam" by the renewables-only fanatics on slashdot.

              People are willing to bury their head in the sand so much those days...

              • Yeah, the writing has been around for a while on wind... and we already know what would end wind would have anyway from the failed wind farms of decades prior.

                Sorry your story was axed, that was a good one.

                I like solar a lot more but nothing can touch nuclear for reliability and stability of service.

            • by gweihir ( 88907 )

              As usual you demonstrate that you are an idiot with no clue how things work and an overactive imagination. You really can stop demonstrating that, by now we _know_.

    • by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

      I wonder what the long term plan is. Reuse some nuclear waste?

      15-20 years before we know if it works, then they need to scale it up to commercial size. 30-40 years before there is a return on that investment.

      Even with the government funding it, that's some long term investment.

    • Will probably take 15 to 20 years or so before success or failure becomes clear though.

      And by that time, practical fusion will only be 10-15 years away!

  • https://alphatechresearchcorp.... [alphatechr...chcorp.com]

    They've run it at the UofU and are now building a larger reactor in Utah.

  • I'm seeing criticism of China's choice of salt, and their enrichment of Lithium. This was the same FLiBe salt choice USA used for their MSRE 1965-1969. FLiBe is the salt of choice for Kairos Power, which uses solid pebble fuel, and FLiBe as working fluid. USA did enrich Lithium for MSRE. Kairos Power will enrich lithium for their reactor as well, their Hermes test reactor review process began in 2021, you can monitor their HERMES licensing progress here... https://www.nrc.gov/reactors/n... [nrc.gov] ...Kairos is a
  • IINM, this is the 2nd phase and they've been operating a smaller test one since 2021:

    https://youtu.be/0kahih8RT1k?t... [youtu.be]

    Lots of reports on that.
    https://www.nature.com/article... [nature.com]

Think of it! With VLSI we can pack 100 ENIACs in 1 sq. cm.!

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