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Power Transportation

Switzerland Is Turning the Gap Between Train Tracks Into a 'Solar Carpet' (fastcompany.com) 130

Posted by BeauHD from the unused-space dept.
Swiss start-up Sun-Ways has developed a concept to install solar panels between train tracks, using a specially built train to "unroll" the panels during the night when fewer trains are running. Fast Company reports: As wild as it all sound, Sun-Ways actually has two competitors. Greenrail and Bankset Energy, respectively located in Italy and England, are already testing similar concepts. But Sun-Ways stands out in two ways. For one, it uses standard-size panels, whereas the others use smaller panels that are placed on top of crossties. And unlike its competitors, Sun-ways doesn't require manual installation. It has a train for that!

Sun-ways is putting this idea to the test during a $560,000 pilot project in Western Switzerland. The pilot, which is slated for this summer, will trial a version of the mechanism using a regular train that's been retrofitted for the occasion. Running on a 140-foot stretch near the city of Neuchatel, the train will install about 60 solar panels, turning the gap between train tracks into a reflective black ribbon.

For now, 100% of the electricity generated by the solar panels will go straight to the grid to power nearby households. But eventually, the team is planning to use some of that electricity to power the very trains that run above the panels. According to Danichert, 5,000 kilometers of "solar rails" (which is the current length of the entire Swiss railroad network) can generate 1 gigawatt of energy per year, or enough energy to power about 750,000 homes. Considering there are over 1 million kilometers of railway tracks worldwide, the potential could be huge, even if the system can't be installed on every one of those tracks. But most importantly, it wouldn't take up any space from farmland or forests, and it wouldn't ruin any landscapes.
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Switzerland Is Turning the Gap Between Train Tracks Into a 'Solar Carpet' More

Switzerland Is Turning the Gap Between Train Tracks Into a 'Solar Carpet'

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  • I understand that a lot of trains drop waste onto the tracks. How will that affect the output?

    • IME diesel electric trains tend to be leaky, too, but perhaps they keep them in better condition over there or are using all electric. Solar panels between the rails seem like a really lovely upgrade to an electric rail system. And you can include equipment on the train to clean them, win win. (pressure wash, air blast?)

      • And you can include equipment on the train to clean them, win win. (pressure wash, air blast?)

        Meanwhile, putting them on a roof of a building or even on a pole next to the train tracks would eliminate those and other issues related to running hundreds of thousands of tonnes of train, cargo and passengers vibrating over SILICON CRYSTALS - at railway speeds, daily.
        Bonus points for making panels harder to steal, cables and all. Which this "invention presentation" conspicuously doesn't show being installed - even in a 3D rendering, as there is no ACTUAL train doing any of this. It's a scam.
        Plus, panels

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Putting the panels on poles is a problem when you have overhead electric wires. There are a lot of regulations around maximum height and distance from the high voltage cables, not least because they can come down in the event of an accident.

          As for theft, it's unlikely. Copper cables for signalling are more attractive targets, as once the copper is reclaimed it can't be traced. A solar panel that obviously came from the railway is going to be difficult to sell, especially as solar panels aren't particularly

      • Re: (Score:3)

        by chill ( 34294 )

        There is still grease from the wheel/axle lubrication. And the vibration. My GOD, the vibration. Then any loose cables that drag, etc.

        This should be interesting. I can see this maybe with electric trains that use rubber wheels [wikipedia.org]?

        • I'm not convinced that the vibration is that big a problem. People manage to have solar systems on RVs which get shaken to shit. In a motor home at least you're on some decent suspension and probably have a sturdy chassis, but TTs are usually flimsy AF and everything just rattles around like mad going down the road. Despite this the CCs and inverters usually have decent lifespans, and the panels are no problem at all. Yes, I get that they are on pneumatic tires, but they are generally designed by assholes a

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Maybe it's like that in your country. On modern European and Japanese railways, they are not throwing dust and dirt everywhere. Some places already put panels right next to the tracks, with the minimum separation distance limited only by the need for people to disembark the train in an emergency.

          • In the 80s I learned to face away from the trains on an S-bahn platform that shared tracks with freight, passenger, and S-bahn, after seeing people hit by debris thrown by a train. These were mostly pebbles, but could cause eye injury.

    • Re:Has anyone considered toilets? (Score:4, Informative)

      by monkeyxpress ( 4016725 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @06:41AM (#63572731)

      I understand that a lot of trains drop waste onto the tracks. How will that affect the output?

      Um, this hasn't been a thing in developed countries for a long time. I'm sure it's not even a thing in much of China anymore - though I do vividly remember the literal hole in the carriage floor toilets in China about 20 years ago. To be fair, those weren't even the worst.

      • Re: Has anyone considered toilets? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by ElizabethGreene ( 1185405 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @07:52AM (#63572819)
        Careful with throwing stones here. Dumping crap on the tracks isn't a "third world" problem. Amtrak in the US started phasing out hopper toilets in 1989 after a lawsuit by Florida, and they didn't completely get rid of them until into the 00s[1]. The UK still has them today. Fwiw, this crap ends up on the side of the tracks, not the middle, so that's something. Here in the US it happens occasionally that the door on a hopper car will jiggle loose and dump it's entire load on the tracks across many miles. I've seen pictures of track nearly full of corn like this and recently read about a whole car of AN fertilizer that arrived empty at the terminal, presumably for the same reason. All that said, the problem I see here isn't with the panels getting dirty or covered ; I expect more panels will fail from vibration and sound pressure othan from stuff falling onto them. We'll see. [1] Lee, Bob H., et al. (2014) Backcountry Lawman, Audible Inc.
        • I replied to the same parent as you. When I was last in Switzerland (admittedly 15 years ago), the intra-country trains still had these toilets.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by AmiMoJo ( 196126 )

          Railway grade engineering is hardly a new thing. The tracks already have a lot of built in sensors and transponders. We can make very durable solar panels.

      • I haven't been to Switzerland in, I guess, about 15 years. But when I lived there, many trains still had toilets that discharged directly on to the tracks (or maybe next to the tracks) and every train had a sign saying "Benutzung im Banhoff verboten" for this reason. The international trains, I believe, all had chemical toilets with holding tanks, but the intra-country ones did not. If the waste dumps next to the track, the panels change nothing. If it drops between the tracks, I guess the panels will ge
      • A much bigger issue is lubricating axel boxes and the rails themselves...
        https://railsystem.net/rail-wheel-lubrication/

      • Re: (Score:2)

        by hawk ( 1151 )

        and *this* is what the conductor meant by "the passengers will please refrain"

        I can't find it due to the hits from the song, but there was a song/rhyme/chant in which the conductors asked the passengers to refrain from dumping waste while the train was in the station.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by Kokuyo ( 549451 )

      Most current trains in Switzerland no longer drop waste onto the tracks. However you are still right to bring up this point. The ones that did are still in service and I have ridden on them several times only a few months ago.

    • Solar panel sweep on the last car.

    • Have you confused Switzerland with India?

    • Roof mounted panels tend to approach an equilibrium level of dirt after a while at a few percent power loss. At that point wind and rain are cleaning them as fast as dirt is landing. If they're easily accessible and/or if the owner is a clean-freak it may help enough to be worth squeeging them a couple times a year. But you're generally ahead to just install an extra panel or two to compensate and skip anything else except maybe cleaning off snowpack from a blizzard.

      Being ground level, substantially hor

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by gweihir ( 88907 )

      Switzerland uses closed toilet systems on trains.

    • I thought modern trains carried sceptic tanks that are emptied when they are at the end of the line and wait there for an hour or two while as checks and routine maintenence is done.

      Switzerland does not strike me as a country that is still using pre 1950s rolling stock for passenger service.

  • Stupid people gonna stupid. (Score:3)

    by noodler ( 724788 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @06:26AM (#63572709)

    Train tracks produce extreme mechanical stress, lots of dust is kicked up by a passing train and trains practically sweat oil.
    This project is imagineerd by an idiot with too much money.

    • Nope. This project is imagineered /for/ idiots with too much money, the same as pretty much any other startup. Whether the idea behind it make sense is not important at all. The only thing that matters is that you expect to be able to raise a few rounds of capital from said idiots, and exit before the bubble pops.
    • We could put tiny brooms on the caboose to clean the solar panels. Quick to the patent office!
      • Put the broom up the conductor's ass and he'll sweep the train deck too! My favorite snarky response to a (ultra high output) coworker who always felt like the sky was falling: "Boss, the only way you're going to get more productivity out of me is if I were to jam that broom up my ass so I swept behind myself as I'm going."

    • Train tracks produce extreme mechanical stress,

      Which is important if the solar panels were load bearing and holding the metal rails in place, but they aren't.

      lots of dust is kicked up by a passing train and trains practically sweat oil.

      This is Switzerland we're talking about. Your 100 year old American infrastructure knowledge isn't relevant. No train tracks in much of Europe are not covered in black goo, or carpeted under discolouration of dust.

      • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

        by noodler ( 724788 )

        Which is important if the solar panels were load bearing and holding the metal rails in place, but they aren't.

        Except that this is not necessary because of the extreme vibrations. It's a stupid system.

        Your 100 year old American infrastructure knowledge isn't relevant.

        I'm an european so fuck your assumptions.

        No train tracks in much of Europe are not covered in black goo, or carpeted under discolouration of dust.

        You should look more closely.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by bsolar ( 1176767 )

          It's a stupid system.

          The smart part of the system is that it re-uses an existing extensive infrastructure.

          Even if the panels require e.g. more regular cleaning than panels placed in more protected areas, if said infrastructure can be re-used to quickly install them it might also be used to clean them.

          Even for maintenance, tracks are routinely examined by special inspection cars and undergo continuous maintenance, meaning that an infrastructure able to regularly inspect and plan for the maintenance of these panels doesn't need t

          • Re: (Score:2)

            by noodler ( 724788 )

            Maintenance is going to be higher in cost than for regular panels. There are special carts that mount/unmount these panels. For maintenance the track needs to be cleared so a disruption of service and maintenance will be needed much more often than regular track maintenance because these panels are much more fragile compared to other parts of the tracks.

            • Re: (Score:2)

              by bsolar ( 1176767 )

              All of this still doesn't mean the increased costs overcome the costs of having a "greenfield" installation of panels without the pre-existing infrastructure the railroad system provides.

              I'd also assume in most cases panels would not be repaired/replaced immediately if found faulty but would be scheduled for repair/replacement during an already scheduled standard maintenance window. This is a typical maintenance strategy in arrays of devices which can keep functioning even if some devices in the array are h

  • This makes the parking lot measures look economically efficient.

  • Challenge is cleanliness (Score:5, Insightful)

    by test321 ( 8891681 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @06:26AM (#63572715)

    The space between tracks is a dirty area. There's mineral oil, soot, and there's human faeces that are unloaded from older trains. They will need frequent maintenance (maybe another customized train with brushes -- and if they use soap it will pollute underground water).

    Maybe Switzerland has clean trains, but one of their selling point is "there are over 1 million kilometers of railway tracks worldwide" and certainly most of these run dirty old trains.

    • Old trains like this don't exist in Switzerland.
      The dirt is neglectable. Train tracks do not look much more dirty than roads.

      Maybe Switzerland has clean trains, but one of their selling point is "there are over 1 million kilometers of railway tracks worldwide" and certainly most of these run dirty old trains.
      Yeah, but Germany, France, Spain, Italy: does not.

    • Re:Challenge is cleanliness (Score:4, Interesting)

      by drinkypoo ( 153816 ) <drink@hyperlogos.org> on Saturday June 03, 2023 @11:31AM (#63573169) Homepage Journal

      I would tilt the panels slightly just to let water run off, and use a car with a tank of water with biodegradable degreaser and an equally biodegradable, non-toxic rinse aid at the back of the train to pressure wash the panels as the train passes. You could even put a sensor on the train to detect when (and which!) panels actually needed to be washed. My experience walking on the railroad tracks in Santa Cruz county (which at the time was an active SP freight line, and which is now headed towards being both that again, and a passenger rail line as well!) suggests that even pretty old and sloppy diesel-electric locomotives drop a noticeable but not outrageous amount of oil.* If you walk right behind the train you get a chance to see it before it soaks into rocks, sleepers, and even the soil; at the right solar angle (that is, walking the right direction at the right time of day) the drops are extremely visible because the sun reflects off of them.

      * It's slightly outrageous if you're a hippie and you think about the rail line running alongside a critical marine sanctuary, but more modern trains drop less oil. They also want to use a fully electric (possibly hydrogen) light rail system to move people along the line.

  • Solar freaking railways... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by ffkom ( 3519199 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @06:27AM (#63572717)
    ... I can already hear Dave Jones hyperventilate.
    Granted, the area they want to cover with panels is not directly being driven on, unlike with the many failed "Solar Roadway" projects. But it is still hard to imagine that the additional dirt and wear caused by trains driving over these panels will not cause significantly faster degradation and defects, ultimately rendering this an unreasonably expensive place for PV.

    • Re:Solar freaking railways... (Score:4, Informative)

      by mobby_6kl ( 668092 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @07:10AM (#63572771)

      ... I can already hear Dave Jones hyperventilate.

      He actually addressed this one already a while ago:https://youtu.be/7vItnxhWRqw?t=313

      It's only a little less dumb that the roadways grift.

    • California to Cover Its Canals With Solar Panels (Score:4, Interesting)

      by echo123 ( 1266692 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @12:01PM (#63573229)

      A pilot project in the Central Valley, the first of its kind in the country, could save water and generate energy for the state.

      A new state-funded project in the San Joaquin Valley hopes to find a new way to build drought resilience. The idea is simple: Cover the state’s canals and aqueducts with solar panels to both limit evaporation and generate renewable energy [anewstate-...eaissimple].

      “If you drive up and down the state, you see a lot of open canals. And after year after year of drought it seemed an obvious question: How much are we losing to evaporation?” said Jordan Harris, co-founder and chief executive of Solar AquaGrid, a company based in the Bay Area that’s designing and overseeing the initiative. “It’s just common sense in our eyes.”

      The California Department of Water Resources is providing $20 million to test the concept in Stanislaus County and to help determine where else along the state’s 4,000 miles of canals — one of the largest water conveyance systems in the world — it would make the most sense to install solar panels. The project is a collaboration between the state, Solar AquaGrid, the Turlock Irrigation District and researchers with the University of California, Merced, who will track and analyze the findings.

  • Ideally, solar panels should NOT be installed under shade, or pointing in the wrong direction, but the optimum angle and direction. And it must be located away from vandals and thieves. If you want to feel good about best placement, then eat that global offset by building on the equator.

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by q_e_t ( 5104099 )
      If it's cheap enough, it doesn't necessarily matter if it's optimal. Whether this scheme is cheap enough is another matter.
      • My bet is there is a big subsidy or govt/taxpayer grant behind this hair brained project, The taxpayer does not get money for value with ego/soundbite projects to pump elect-ability chances. I note the best value is placing the panels on a business - like a bakery or food processor - that keeps and sustains local employment.

        • Re: (Score:2)

          by bsolar ( 1176767 )

          My bet is there is a big subsidy or govt/taxpayer grant behind this hair brained project.

          The project is "subsidized" by its nature of leveraging an already existing extensive infrastructure. The railroad infrastructure exists already and has been build investing billions and is being continuously maintained, with or without the addition of these solar panels.

          Of course panels would be more efficient and require less maintenance if built in a different location, but the reduced efficiency and increased maintenance won't necessarily surpass the savings of re-using the existing infrastructure.

  • Solar Agriculture (Score:5, Informative)

    by habig ( 12787 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @06:52AM (#63572739) Homepage
    TFA mentioned one thing that seems a better idea I've seen discussed elsewhere: putting solar panels in vegetable farms. Far enough apart that you can get your machinery in between them of course. This apparently has the additional benefit that many crops appreciate the shade, grow better, and need less irrigation. I'm sure this isn't tre for all crops, but for whatever subset that is true, farmers being able to sell power, more vegetables, and using less water seems a win/win/win. Ahh - googling around, it's even got a specific name now: "agrivoltaic".
    • The idea of agrivoltaic seems wonderful. I am anything but a farmer (I have trouble keeping the trees and flowers in my yard alive), but agrivoltaics, especially ones where the angle can be adjusted, should make farmland *much* more productive. If the panels are setup to maximize electricity, they should have some positive growing effect. But if they are, instead, managed to maximize agricultural output, they should do wonders. You could set the panels to dose plants with the exact amount of sunlight ne

    • TFA mentioned one thing that seems a better idea

      It's actually a great idea. The problem is that some countries have complete idiots in government, e.g. the UK where the prime minister of 40 days managed to pass rules that effectively ban putting solar panels on farm land.

      • The one who was told several times a week that her unfunded tax cuts would cause a run on the bond market. The one who insisted for the 30th or so time that this wasn't true.
        The one who caused a run on the bond market within hours of attempting this.
        And the one who should have literally died from shame but has tried a couple of times to make a comeback.

    • This apparently has the additional benefit that many crops appreciate the shade, grow better, and need less irrigation.

      Most of the vegetables and fruit we consume prefer full sun all day, at least if they're growing in anything approaching their native habitat. The idea of growing in "shade frames" comes from gardeners who are trying to grow cooler-climate crops in hot areas (e.g. lettuce in Arizona). The plants don't actually prefer shade.

      It certainly could be applicable in places like California and Florida (which do have huge areas devoted to agriculture), but only when they're growing certain crops. It might actually be

  • This is a neat idea - certainly better than the solar roadways thing, but it does have some issues. A lot of the track would not be economical to put solar panels on as it would be shaded by buildings, trees, hillsides, tunnels etc. However the biggest problem with this is that the panels cannot be tilted towards the sun. This means that you immediately lose efficiency on every panel because of Switzerland's latitude away from the equator.

    So what you're gaining really is spare land and a pre-existing electr

    • However the biggest problem with this is that the panels cannot be tilted towards the sun. This means that you immediately lose efficiency on every panel because of Switzerland's latitude away from the equator.
      That is nonsense. They can be tilted. It is just a question if the extra effort is worth it. On top of that: the "optimal" tilt for fixed installations is something like 32degrees. That is not very much.
      The distance between tracks is roughly 1400mm (roughly 4feet 8inch),
      Supposed the track goes from ea

  • Beside the tracks on racks would be better? Lets make rail maintenance an electrocution hazard! What could go wrong? Surely this wouldn't make railwork happen less often if you've got a few hundred volts DC and AC both between the rails. When that results in derailments, I'm sure there is no way whatsoever that 50+ ton railcars could do any damage to the wiring that'd break the jacketing and short a wire to the rail or a car, right? Trains never derail in the rain do they?

    Great! For a moment I thought the

    • Re: (Score:2)

      by q_e_t ( 5104099 )
      Most areas of Europe use overhead cables for power, not third rails

    • Oh, as soon as a European country/company has a solar project, only Nay Saysrs pop on /.

      Trains never derail in the rain do they?
      Extremely rarely.

      When that results in derailments, I'm sure there is no way whatsoever that 50+ ton railcars could do any damage to the wiring that'd break the jacketing and short a wire to the rail or a car, right?
      Yes it could. Just like with the over track power line. That is why you are supposed to stay in the train after an accident and only go out under extreme circumstance

    • Agreed. There are actually a lot of areas like this (at least in the US), not just sidetrack. For example, right-of-ways along high tension power lines are largely unused and many times wider than needed to get a vehicle through. Same with oil and gas pipelines. These could pretty readily be adapted for solar.

  • A gigawatt is a unit of power, not energy (Score:5, Informative)

    by evanh ( 627108 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @08:55AM (#63572903)

    A gigawatt of energy per year is a non-functional statement. Why do so many of these tech sites keep getting this so wrong?

    Maybe they meant gigawatt-hour per year? That would be a unit of energy but not very impressive.

    Maybe they meant peak power capacity is a gigawatt. That sounds more suitable but that's an instantaneous unit and has nothing to do with a year since obviously solar can not generate at peak wattage for a whole year non-stop.

    • A gigawatt of energy per year is a non-functional statement. Why do so many of these tech sites keep getting this so wrong?

      Presumably modern tech sites are not written for techies but in fact for the common idiot who doesn't understand the distinction between power and energy in the first place.

    • Conflating with units is how politicians and marketers jumble the math to get it to show whatever they want to suit their needs, in this case probably to sell it to the taxpayers. This might be 1GWh per year as you suggested, but divide that by 750 homes and that's an average draw of 152W, or roughly 100KWh per month, which seems low. Without knowing more data, like power generation distribution throughout the year (presumably at night or on dark, cloudy days it doesn't produce much), energy storage capacit

  • >"can generate 1 gigawatt of energy per year"

    Not this again. A watt is a measurement of power with no element of time. Such a statement means little, it only says the peak capacity, not what will actually be produced. A gigawatt for HOW LONG? A second? A minute? An hour? A day? Is that 1 gigawatt [presumably capacity] during peak sun? An average? Does it account for night? For weather? They don't say, so it is meaningless.

    • Well, by 1 gigawatt per year don't they mean 1 gigawatt over 8,760 hours per year = 114,155 watts per hour? Or am I doing that wrong?

      • >"Well, by 1 gigawatt per year don't they mean 1 gigawatt over 8,760 hours per year = 114,155 watts per hour? Or am I doing that wrong?"

        That's my point. Who knows what they mean? If they do mean what you just said, that is not much power.

  • Most tracks in the US have a good bit of space to the sides, frequently gravel covered but not always. This is largely unused except for occasional maintenance vehicles so why not install panels there instead (or in addition)? Seems like they'd be easier to clean and maintain.

  • turning the gap between train tracks into a reflective black ribbon.

    Are they considering crew visibility during low sun situations?

  • 1) How do they deal with the stresses caused by the changing air pressure and vibration from the passing trains? The sudden burst of wind of a passing train is likely to rip a solar panel off its mounts or cause the panel to continually flex and vibrate with each passing train. The solar panels will need to be physically stronger than your average panel.

    2) How do they deal with snow build up on the panels? Are they relying on #1 above to clear the snow?

    • The solar panels will need to be physically stronger than your average panel.

      Do they? How strong is an actual panel and what will be needed in this case? Please use actual engineering units when giving your answer.

      A lot of people here seem to think that solar panels are made of paper, and you appear to be one of them.

  • Poop (Score:2)

    by mspohr ( 589790 )

    I've ridden a lot of Swiss trains. They are wonderful.
    However, some of the older cars have toilets which dump directly onto the tracks. I don't know if all of these have been replaced but it might be an issue.

  • Anything is possible with enough government subsidies.

  • time and time again (Score:3)

    by stridebird ( 594984 ) on Saturday June 03, 2023 @12:40PM (#63573303) Homepage
    One gigawatt per year. What ignorant fuckery is this?

  • So they have found some investments to pour all that Nazi gold into. I guess all the Russian money is helping, too.

    They won't make money from reselling Swiss licensed tanks to Ukraine in order for them to defend themselves. So fuck Ukraine, right Switzerland!? It would probably piss off the source of Russian money too much. Switzerland needs to become a pariah state.

  • Than past proposals of turning roads into giant solar panels. Those would've been destroyed in a month.

      There is minimal chance of this doing the same with railroad tracks. The only issue here is cost vs benefit.

  • When you read all the comments about dirt and vibrations, you'd think "how dumb must these swiss guys be to not think of that?" immediately followed buy: "of course they thought of that" - and they did. They believe they've solved these issues and that's exactly what concept deployments like this are for: Put it out in the real world and see if it works.

    Let them do it. Let them figure out if they thought of everything and if their solutions work. It could be a cool thing, and testing it is exactly what's ne

  • I notice that they have wooden railroad ties in the article photos. R&S Track Maintenance [rstrackinc.com] says

    In general, wooden ties may need to be replaced every 7 to 10 years, while concrete ties can last for up to 30 years.

    I hope they can pick up their panels before the ties are changed, and, I hope they have an agreement with the union that changes ties regarding damage to solar panel related infrastructure. It might be a good idea to install the panels just after the installation of concrete ties, since they theoretically have similar life expectancies.

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