HP Printers Should Have EPEAT Ecolabels Revoked, Trade Group Demands (arstechnica.com) 48
An anonymous reader quotes a report from Ars Technica: HP printers have received a lot of flak historically and recently for invasive firmware updates that end up preventing customers from using ink with their printers. HP also encourages printer customers to sign up for HP+, a program that includes a free ink-subscription trial and irremovable firmware that allows HP to brick the ink when it sees fit. Despite this, HP markets dozens of its printers with Dynamic Security and the optional HP+ feature as being in the Electronic Product Environmental Assessment Tool (EPEAT) registry, suggesting that these printers are built with the environment in mind and, more specifically, do not block third-party ink cartridges. Considering Dynamic Security and HP+ printers do exactly that, the International Imaging Technology Council (IITC) wants the General Electronics Council (GEC), which is in charge of the EPEAT registry, to revoke at least 101 HP printer models from the EPEAT registry, which HP has "made a mockery of."
For a printer to make the EPEAT registry, it's supposed to comply with the EPEAT Imaging Equipment Category Criteria, which is based on the 1680.2-2012 IEEE Standard for Environmental Assessment of Imaging Equipment (PDF). The IITC is hung up on section 4.9.2.1, which requires that registered products do not "prevent the use of nonmanufacturer cartridges and non-manufacturer containers" and that vendors provide documentation showing that the device isn't "designed to prevent the use of a non-manufacturer cartridge or non-manufacturer container." Well, as the IITC and consumers who found their inked bricked mid-print will tell you, that sounds an awful lot like what HP does with its Dynamic Security printers.
Diving deeper, the IITC's complaint claims that "in the last 8 weeks alone, HP has released 4 killer firmware updates targeting dozens of EPEAT-registered inkjet printers." "At least one of these recent updates specifically targeted a single producer of remanufactured cartridges while not having any impact on non-remanufactured third-party cartridges using functionally identical non-HP chips," the complaint reads. The trade group also claimed at least 26 "killer firmware updates" occurred on EPEAT-registered HP laser printers since October 2020. The complaint argues that the error message that users see -- "The indicated cartridges have been blocked by the printer firmware because they contain non-HP chips. This printer is intended to work only with new or reused cartridges that have a new or reused HP chip. Replace the indicated cartridges to continue printing" -- go against EPEAT requirements, yet HP markets dozens of Dynamic Security printers with EPEAT ecolabels. "The nonprofit trade association was founded in 2000 and says it represents 'toner and inkjet cartridge remanufacturers, component suppliers, and cartridge collectors in North America,'" notes Ars. "So its members stand to lose a lot of money from tactics like Dynamic Security. The IITC already filed a complaint to the GEC about HP in 2019 for firmware blocking non-HP ink, but there didn't seem to be any noticeable results."
"The group is biased regarding this topic, but its complaint still mirrors many problems and concerns that consumers and class-action lawsuits have detailed regarding HP printers' exclusive stance on ink. You can find the full complaint here."
For a printer to make the EPEAT registry, it's supposed to comply with the EPEAT Imaging Equipment Category Criteria, which is based on the 1680.2-2012 IEEE Standard for Environmental Assessment of Imaging Equipment (PDF). The IITC is hung up on section 4.9.2.1, which requires that registered products do not "prevent the use of nonmanufacturer cartridges and non-manufacturer containers" and that vendors provide documentation showing that the device isn't "designed to prevent the use of a non-manufacturer cartridge or non-manufacturer container." Well, as the IITC and consumers who found their inked bricked mid-print will tell you, that sounds an awful lot like what HP does with its Dynamic Security printers.
Diving deeper, the IITC's complaint claims that "in the last 8 weeks alone, HP has released 4 killer firmware updates targeting dozens of EPEAT-registered inkjet printers." "At least one of these recent updates specifically targeted a single producer of remanufactured cartridges while not having any impact on non-remanufactured third-party cartridges using functionally identical non-HP chips," the complaint reads. The trade group also claimed at least 26 "killer firmware updates" occurred on EPEAT-registered HP laser printers since October 2020. The complaint argues that the error message that users see -- "The indicated cartridges have been blocked by the printer firmware because they contain non-HP chips. This printer is intended to work only with new or reused cartridges that have a new or reused HP chip. Replace the indicated cartridges to continue printing" -- go against EPEAT requirements, yet HP markets dozens of Dynamic Security printers with EPEAT ecolabels. "The nonprofit trade association was founded in 2000 and says it represents 'toner and inkjet cartridge remanufacturers, component suppliers, and cartridge collectors in North America,'" notes Ars. "So its members stand to lose a lot of money from tactics like Dynamic Security. The IITC already filed a complaint to the GEC about HP in 2019 for firmware blocking non-HP ink, but there didn't seem to be any noticeable results."
"The group is biased regarding this topic, but its complaint still mirrors many problems and concerns that consumers and class-action lawsuits have detailed regarding HP printers' exclusive stance on ink. You can find the full complaint here."
Greedy corporation is greedy ... ho-hum (Score:2, Informative)
Anyone turning to HP for printers and NOT expecting them to claw every farthing from you for ink/toner is deluding themselves. This has been known for decades.
Re:Greedy corporation is greedy ... ho-hum (Score:5, Insightful)
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How about buying HP printers is stupid, but we should still do something about this waste-producing ink DRM bullshit no matter who is doing it?
Re: Greedy corporation is greedy ... ho-hum (Score:2)
The difference, obviously, is that mugging people is illegal, while price gouging is not.
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The difference, obviously, is that mugging people is illegal, while price gouging is not.
Actual price gouging can be illegal, but I don't recall any of the corporations which have obviously been doing it being held to account. For instance, "California's anti-price gouging statute [ca.gov], Penal Code Section 396, prohibits raising the price of many consumer goods and services by more than 10% after an emergency has been declared." But uh, that was the norm and not the exception during the declared pandemic, and I haven't heard one peep about that shit.
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You know, back in the day, in and around 2000, I used to work for staples as the sales consultant for the division that dealt with business machines etc. So HP's (and other vendors) regional guy would come around every month or so. It's funny how accurately this all played out.
Back then he told me that HP didn't even want to sell printers, it's always been about the ink. He said at one point he envisioned them getting out of the printer business all together, and more into printing for people, at a much
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What is the best alternative for Linux?
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Brother was best.
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HP wasn't always this way. I had owned HP printers from 2012 to 2018 and I used third party ink cartridges after the originals were over and they all worked well. Eventually, my printer wasn't printing well with third party cartridges and so bought original HP. That didn't print well either indicating some other printer issue. I returned the opened cartridge (and HP took back and issued full refund). The next printer I bought was non-HP only because I got a better deal on it.
Recently, I bought an HP PC. Its
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It would be fair to say, that neither I nor my work colleagues, recommend ANY HP devices any longer.
So long as I don't want to get a phone call from a friend or reletive to do "free" product support - I don't recommend HP. Just waiting for my last printer to get magically bricked. Then I buy something else. And it won't be inkjet either.
HP have not only jumped the share, they've burnt goodwill and caused other to lose fait.
That being said, I note that Apple don't sell printers. Maybe not even they can make
Brother (Score:3, Insightful)
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I will probably never buy a printer again that is not made by Brother. I would never even give an HP the slightest consideration.
I would not touch an inkjet printer no matter who makes it. They're too much hassle and too unreliable if you don't use them regularly. They have too much waste. They're way too expensive per page. And so on.
IMO, Konica Minolta, Canon, and Brother are the only actual printer vendors out there. Everybody else just sells sparkling paper smudging machines.
Between HP's banded printing, their issues with third-party ink, random firmware bugs I've experienced where duplex printing on 11x17 has to be done a s
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I have a Brother B&W Laser printer ... still works, can still get all the replacement parts - from Brother or from 3rd parties all work much the same ... prices are not gouging ...
Why would anyone buy HP ?
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Things were better long ago (Score:3)
Oh Brother. Seriously though, Brother seems closest to HPLJ of old.
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There's a few reports in recent discussions about how Brother is starting to play DRM games to prevent refills.
And Brother MFCs that won't scan if the ink is depleted [consumerreports.org].
I'm having problems with the scan button functionality (brscan4) though SANE scanning works, even their amended install process is failing me now, and after I told them so they ghosted me.
I do think part of the lesson here is don't buy a MFC, but it's so irritating to have to have a separate scanner around and manage it too. But the rest of th
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This is sad news. I thought Brother was going to take all the disgruntled consumers.
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This is true. I have seen this firsthand on one of their multi-function machines (laser printer, not inkjet). There are active discussions online and an open source tool to roll back firmware "updates" that are leading to incompatibility with 3rd party consumables.
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This is true. I have seen this firsthand on one of their multi-function machines (laser printer, not inkjet). There are active discussions online and an open source tool to roll back firmware "updates" that are leading to incompatibility with 3rd party consumables.
I don't think this is an issue for my laser MFC because it's been abandoned :) Guess I'll find out if it ever becomes relevant, but luckily I don't print that much.
BSD, was Re: GPL (Score:2)
Yes, and if for some reason they decide they need a full featured multi-user OS, there's always the *BSD operating systems.
Can't speak for the others but FreeBSD's NanoBSD [freebsd.org] is a tool for creating "small" FreeBSD system images for embedded applications.
Stopped buying HP long ago (Score:2, Insightful)
Shipping new printers with barely enough ink for 50 pages then making consumers buy a new cartridge that costs more than the printer? Fuck off.
What a fucking scam their whole printer division is. They should get investigated for fraud and consumer law violations. Losing epeat certification is a joke.
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Shipping new printers with barely enough ink for 50 pages then making consumers buy a new cartridge that costs more than the printer? Fuck off.
LOL. Of all the things that HP is known for being shitty about you complain about the one standard thing in the industry that literally every manufacturer does. There's some real irony in your user name.
They should get investigated for fraud and consumer law violations.
Which law? Be specific.
Losing epeat certification is a joke.
Not at all. They wanted the certification for something. They went to the effort to have it certified so they clearly thinks there's value in it. Taking a value proposition away from hp is not a joke, it's the only mechanism available to stop this cuntish behaviour.
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Well, my Brother color laser printer still has the original toner cartridges it came with... I've had this thing for years now.
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And? Congrats on not printing a lot. My current Brother laser printer arrived just like every other Brother laser printer with a half empty cartridge which is normal for printers that are sold borderline as loss leaders. I also wouldn't expect even Brother to ship a full toner cartridge for a printer which cost exactly the same amount as a full toner cartridge.
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Every printer I've ever bought from anyone else had a full or mostly full ink cartridge with it and a new cartridge didn't cost as much as twice what the printer cost like HP.
Which law? Fraud, deceptive business practices, mislabeling. Helllooooooo?
Yes certification is a joke. How many people walk into Best Buy and say, "Oh, that one has epeat cert and that other one doesn't! I'll buy the epeat one!"? That's never been said by anyone, ever.
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No you just think it did. It didn't. Literally every manufacturer, even Slashdot's darling Brother does it.
Which law? Fraud, deceptive business practices, mislabeling. Helllooooooo?
Now now, be specific. Prove the fraud, and be careful to make sure your case actually meets the legal definition. Consider it a nice challenge, but be warned you'll likely loose because being a shitty company doesn't just magically make something fraud. "Deceptive business practices" isn't a law. It's a generalised term, be specific and find the correct legal basis for an argument. Are you maybe confus
Re:Stopped buying HP long a (Score:2)
Are you a lawyer? If not then why do you think you know anything about how the law works?
I am not a lawyer but have worked as a legal assistant in the past. This is a social media site not a court room. There is no way to prove any legal position on a social media site. That requires a court, lawyers, judge and often a jury. It's a nice try at arguing by authority but you don't have authority in this situation.
I'm glad you were there when I bought my last printer. Without you there is no way for me to
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I have never, and will never touch anything related to HP, not just printers.
My father has an HP printer and had that subscription bullshit. It wasn't even just a subscription to ink... they charged him like $1 per page printed. Was hell cancelling it.
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My first student job in college I was the printer kid. I had to fix, replace, maintain, buy, ship, etc the printers, the cartridges, the paper and so on.
The laser printers were a big deal and the cartridges although expensive didn't cost more than the printers.
The smaller non laser consumer level printers we put in professor offices were the same consumer models people use at home. The cartridges were basically ink, a dispensing method which varied on the type of printer (ink jet, dot matrix, whatever), a
Should have "printer" label removed (Score:3)
They're DRMed junk. Complete garbage.
Goes well beyond ink (Score:4, Insightful)
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Lawsuit Territory?? (Score:2)
HP? Only for a Laserjet 5 (Score:2)
The Color Laserjet 5 is the last decent printer they made.
Right now I have a Xerox Phaser 6020 and it works fabulously well with Linux.
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Agree for laser printers. I bought a Dell color laser printer 5 years ago. I have replaced cartridges only once with third party cartridges. Total cost for printer and replacement cartridges so far including all taxes is USD 110 (printed over 1000 pages).
Very good news (Score:2)
I long ago learned to avoid HP, but I'm glad to hear that someone is finally putting some heat on them.
Someone else said that if you do business with HP you have to expect to be robbed. That might be true for nerds like us who know the score, but isn't necessarily true for regular users, who haven't had our experience or industry knowledge. For their sake, it's important to pursue this.
I've said this before, but for home printing I recommend color laser. Savings in ink will rapidly compensate for the hig
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Most of us don't do enough color to even need it at home, and most of those who do are just printing photos they're never going to look at again, or could have looked at on their TV. Color laser printers have their own problems, and that doesn't get you away from toner cart DRM.
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Most of us don't do enough color to even need it at home, and most of those who do are just printing photos they're never going to look at again, or could have looked at on their TV. Color laser printers have their own problems, and that doesn't get you away from toner cart DRM.
That's true. You do still have to deal with DRM with many color laser printers. The major difference is that the toner is not liquid and will not dry up. It's good for low usage situations. Grandma can print a photo off her granddaughter's facebook in January, and another one in March, without having to clean the heads and replace the cartridges every damned time.
Toner cartridges are expensive, and are chipped for many manufacturers, but for a low use case like Grandma, the toner will last for years.
The
Cartridge collectors? (Score:2)
And I thought collecting those Funko figures was weird!
(I'm sure it means to collect for recycling, right?)