White House Proposes 30% Tax On Electricity Used For Crypto Mining (engadget.com) 130
Longtime Slashdot reader SonicSpike shares a report from Engadget: The Biden administration wants to impose a 30 percent tax on the electricity used by cryptocurrency mining operations, and it has included the proposal in its budget for the fiscal year of 2024. In a blog post on the White House website, the administration has formally introduced the Digital Asset Mining Energy or DAME excise tax. It explained that it wants to tax cryptomining firms, because they aren't paying for the "full cost they impose on others," which include environmental pollution and high energy prices.
Crypto mining has "negative spillovers on the environment," the White House continued, and the pollution it generates "falls disproportionately on low-income neighborhoods and communities of color." It added that the operations' "often volatile power consumption " can raise electricity prices for the people around them and cause service interruptions. Further, local power companies are taking a risk if they decide to upgrade their equipment to make their service more stable, since miners can easily move away to another location, even abroad. As Yahoo News noted, there are other industries, such as steel manufacturing, that also use large amounts of electricity but aren't taxed for their energy consumption. In its post, the administration said that cryptomining "does not generate the local and national economic benefits typically associated with businesses using similar amounts of electricity."
Critics believe that the government made this proposal to go after and harm an industry it doesn't support. A Forbes report also suggested that DAME may not be the best solution for the issue, and that taxing the industry's greenhouse gas emissions might be a better alternative. That could encourage mining firms not just to minimize energy use, but also to find cleaner sources of power. It might be difficult to convince the administration to go down that route, though: In its blog post, it said that the "environmental impacts of cryptomining exist even when miners use existing clean power." Apparently, mining operations in communities with hydropower have been observed to reduce the amount of clean power available for use by others. That leads to higher prices and to even higher consumption of electricity from non-clean sources. "If the proposal ever becomes a law, the government would impose the excise tax in phases," adds Engadget. "It would start by adding a 10 percent tax on miners' electricity use in the first year, 20 percent in the second and then 30 percent from the third year onwards."
Crypto mining has "negative spillovers on the environment," the White House continued, and the pollution it generates "falls disproportionately on low-income neighborhoods and communities of color." It added that the operations' "often volatile power consumption " can raise electricity prices for the people around them and cause service interruptions. Further, local power companies are taking a risk if they decide to upgrade their equipment to make their service more stable, since miners can easily move away to another location, even abroad. As Yahoo News noted, there are other industries, such as steel manufacturing, that also use large amounts of electricity but aren't taxed for their energy consumption. In its post, the administration said that cryptomining "does not generate the local and national economic benefits typically associated with businesses using similar amounts of electricity."
Critics believe that the government made this proposal to go after and harm an industry it doesn't support. A Forbes report also suggested that DAME may not be the best solution for the issue, and that taxing the industry's greenhouse gas emissions might be a better alternative. That could encourage mining firms not just to minimize energy use, but also to find cleaner sources of power. It might be difficult to convince the administration to go down that route, though: In its blog post, it said that the "environmental impacts of cryptomining exist even when miners use existing clean power." Apparently, mining operations in communities with hydropower have been observed to reduce the amount of clean power available for use by others. That leads to higher prices and to even higher consumption of electricity from non-clean sources. "If the proposal ever becomes a law, the government would impose the excise tax in phases," adds Engadget. "It would start by adding a 10 percent tax on miners' electricity use in the first year, 20 percent in the second and then 30 percent from the third year onwards."
The grand master plan of crypto (Score:2, Informative)
The plan for all cryptocurrencies isn't what they want to make you think it is. It's more sinister than the egalitarian image the crypto boys portray for it.
After the 2008 financial meltdown, cryptocurrencies were born out of it, declared to be the means by which people could be freed from banks/governments, and promised to avoid any such future meltdowns from happening ever again.
But the crypto boys watched closely the result of that meltdown, and formulated their plan: create a new form of currency, and
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Nopers.
#1, Cryptocurrencies started before the 2008 crash. It was a joke then, it's a joke now.
#2, If only a handful of people were engaging with it, we would not be having this conversation
The problem is people refuse to recognize a Ponzi scheme, even when it's spelled PONZI. If nobody bought into it, it would have failed by itself. But instead we got all these greedy schmucks who bought into it, and then convinced their friends, enemies to buy in and then they get out as soon as things start diving.
These
I propose to outlaw cryptomining (Score:5, Interesting)
That'll save the environment during the time the crypto scammers haven't been caught and thrown into the slammer yet.
Re:I propose to outlaw cryptomining (Score:5, Insightful)
The environment won't be destroyed by crypto scammers but it unnecessarily contributes to the damage, wastes resources and strains the grid. As for 5 years,
We're decreasing per-capita electricity usage
We're also decarbonizing the grid at the same time
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How could we possibly be decreasing our per-capita electricity usage when they want us all driving EVs? My coworker's PHEV Prius uses more electricity a month then my entire home does over the same time period. Surely, if I bought a PHEV, my electricity foot print would more then double.
So how does that DECREASE electricity usage?
Re: I propose to outlaw cryptomining (Score:5, Informative)
No we don't need extra load for no reason. Wtf.
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> No we don't need extra load for no reason. Wtf.
Then you can choose to not use electricity to mine bitcoin and you have done your part. Thats the beginning and end of what you have the right to do about it. Nothing gives you the right to control how other people use electricity, and even if you somehow had such a power it would be foolish to use it.
Think: If I didnt think people should use electricity for lighting or heating at night, would that give me the right to decarbonize your house and make you l
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Think: If I didnt think people should use natural gas for lighting or heating at night, would that give me the right to decarbonize your house and make you live in the dark ?
In California, yes it would!
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Then you can choose to not use electricity to mine bitcoin and you have done your part. Thats the beginning and end of what you have the right to do about it. Nothing gives you the right to control how other people use electricity, and even if you somehow had such a power it would be foolish to use it.
Think: If I didnt think people should use electricity for lighting or heating at night, would that give me the right to decarbonize your house and make you live in the dark ?
Lol, lmao.
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Then you can choose to not use electricity to mine bitcoin and you have done your part. Thats the beginning and end of what you have the right to do about it. Nothing gives you the right to control how other people use electricity, and even if you somehow had such a power it would be foolish to use it.
The problem with your argument is that cryptocurrency mining is not a self contained operation that provides its own generation and transmission infrastructure for the electricity it consumes. Instead, it consumes electricity that is generated and transmitted using a common infrastructure for which all consumers pay to maintain, expand, and improve. Crypto mining consumes vast amounts of power, with Bitcoin alone projecting a current annual power consumption rate of just over 130 Terawatt Hours (Source: htt [ccaf.io]
Re: I propose to outlaw cryptomining (Score:3)
Re:I propose to outlaw cryptomining (Score:4, Informative)
I didn't switch out all the incandescent bulbs in my house to LEDs just to save myself some money on my electric bill. I also did it to reduce my "take" from the grid; with the hopes that the sum reduction of everyone replacing items in their everyday lives with ones that consume remarkably less energy would require less overall power generation, which in turn would consume less fossil fuels, which would put less CO2 into the atmosphere.
But no, some individual with a wire rack full of nvidia cards running full tilt 24/7 is going to blow my contributions to reducing energy consumption away, and that of many others as well, for their goal to accumulate magical internet nickels. TBQFH, I couldn't give 2 shiats to the desired of miners.
Mining is one of the biggest man-made environmenta (Score:5, Insightful)
Proof of work mining is terrible, and I've been beating this drum for over 10 years. Very much unlike steel, crypto mining produces nothing tangible or useful. A currency defined by fiat is fine, but this non-product is rebooting coal and other polluting energy sources without being regulated for its emissions, very much unlike steel.
The critics who compare it to steel are gaslighting. It's comparing something real to something fake and saying "we agree it's real, and we aren't responsible for the environmental side effects and fallout."
Re: Mining is one of the biggest man-made environ (Score:4, Interesting)
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> It doesnt take the annual consumption of Switzerland per day to print money
No, it takes a lot more. The current finacial system is a massive overhead on the economy, and replacing it all with bitcoin would massively reduce power consumption.
Re: Mining is one of the biggest man-made environ (Score:2)
Why not just special tax rates for all biz types? (Score:2, Insightful)
I mean, this is what they really want, isn't it? Let's just enact some special tax rates based on the vertical market of the business. Everyone on Earth really just wanted real life to emulate the Civ games anyhow. Seems logical. So while we're at it, we'll just lower tax rates for "climate change" companies, and raise rates for "gun manufacturing" companies. Because weather, water, kids, yolo. Don't worry, when dems lose next term it'll just flip into raise rates for "terrorism backers" and lower rates for
digital metering (Score:3)
Sounds unfeasable (Score:2)
Even 1 GPU likely to be noticeable (Score:2)
This may work for corporate or large-scale mining operations, but will be much harder to track small scale operation.
Really? 4 midrange GPUs in 2 PCs and my condo's kwh consumption more than doubles. So let's say 25% for 1 midrange GPU in 1 PC. More importantly the power company would see a very different minimum consumption rate.
And? (Score:2)
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So does an air conditioner or a grow op or 3d print shop or the myriads of other electric devices that exist
The elevated electricity use adds to the AC use, 3D printer use, etc. Its an increase every season. Its constant or long duration and predictable (off-peak perhaps). Its not like all the other intermittent use of various devices.
And yes you might get flagged due to increased IR emissions as the cops scan the neighborhood for grow operations. Another way to get spotted.
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Were you born this daft or is it an acquired skill?
Understanding how GPU mining in a home environment is detectable, even at the 1 or 2 PC level, is based on several years of experience.
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Unless you got proof, ...
As in having done GPU mining for three years. Seen its effect in all seasons. Keep in mind GPU mining is constant, it is not intermittent like everything else you mention.
An AC will take multiple times that energy
4 GPUs consumed about the same energy as my AC.
Solar or wind powered mining? (Score:3)
So what happens if I'm off the grid and my mining operation is powered by solar and/or wind power?
Re: Solar or wind powered mining? (Score:2)
You pay 30% tax as far as I can tell. Fucking stupid.
30% of 0 is 0. I think you knew this. (Score:5, Insightful)
So what happens if I'm off the grid and my mining operation is powered by solar and/or wind power?
You pay 30% of the cost you pay...which if you weren't lying, would be 30% of $0.00...but since I know you're posting a hypothetical that has never happened in reality, which is basically a lie...please kindly fuck off. I know you know enough math to know this already. Stop making excuses for scam artists. They're a cancer that cause lots of emissions and make energy scarcer so they can engage in crimes, fraud, and ponzi-schemes.
THERE IS NO LEGIT USE FOR CRYPTO. If you're championing it, you're either looking to break the law (and yes, tax-evasion is breaking the law...or more precisely freeloading and asking ME and EVERYONE ELSE to pay your share) or get rich off the rubes in a ponzi-scheme. But to answer your question not a fucking thing happens...you knew this...you just wanted to pretend somehow your stupid hobby wasn't harming society from an environmental standpoint.
Re: 30% of 0 is 0. I think you knew this. (Score:2)
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You're not very bright are you?
This is stupid and prejudiced (Score:2, Insightful)
This is approaching state-planned economy totalitarianism. It does not look good in the US of A.
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Or how would you feel if your government declared data centers counterproductive to social order, because they support social media, so decided to slap an extra electricity tax on data centers?
Or if government declared vertical agriculture of strawberries, beans, and leafy greens destructive to traditional farming economy, and
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I don't oppose such taxes in all cases. If the negative externality is real, such as carbon emissions causing global warming, then if the mark
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I would prefer that government just ban things that a
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What's the tax for charging a battery? (Score:2)
An unworkable tax on something that's mostly done out of the country? Typical.
Are they proposing to tax mining done with solar energy? Wind? What about energy purchased from out of country?
Would the tax apply to general purpose computing, or only purpose built mining rigs?
What about cheats?
How could you catch someone who mines in one place but claims to mine somewhere else?
Having caught them, how could determine the appropriate fine?
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Already in the works. It's a flat, annual tax now on EVs. To make up for the lost gasoline tax revenues. States are looking at switching to per mile charges. Of course, that will be done by placing GPS trackers on cars. But they won't use that location data for anything else. They promise.
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No, you could simply just ask them to take a photo of the odometer. That's all. You can't really lie about it.
I mean, let's say you take a photo halfway through the year so you get charged half the mileage. What happens if
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If you scrap it, same thing - they get the actual mileage.
So you don't scrap it, you leave it in a seedy area with the keys in the ignition so it gets "stolen" - then you blame the thieves for the extra mileage, assuming they don't set the car on fire destroying the odometer.
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Why do you think that would matter at all?
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If you scrap it, same thing - they get the actual mileage.
I've scrapped a couple of cars in the past. I sell most of the good parts before the thing even makes it to the wrecking yard.
"Some guy needed a new instrument cluster. The price was too good to turn down. The only thing I recall about his name is that it was something like Benjamin Franklin."
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Of course, that will be done by placing GPS trackers on cars.
You conspiracy nuts are just too much.
Here in reality, you'll just report your mileage. Odds are good that you already do. I do it twice a year per vehicle: once when I renew the registration and once as part of the safety inspection.
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You conspiracy nuts are just too much.
You apparently haven't been paying attention. There are states that have proposed requiring GPS trackers in vehicles as a means to tax mileage. The claim is that this is so they can only tax miles on public roads in the state but that's bullshit. Nobody in government is going to give up on taxing something unless there's something of greater value to come from it.
This reminds me of a proposal by some state legislator in trying to "close the guns how loophole" with a bill requiring some kind of form fille
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That's a BINGO! Guns, Taxes, Government Tracking, Global Warming, and Crypto.
You conspiracy nuts are just too much.
Just FYI: There are countless ridiculous proposals made every year. Some are just misguided, sure, but the overwhelming majority are just for show. An even greater number, however, are just made up nonsense. It's wise to get the full legal citation and to personally verify, with the text of the bill, the claims made by your source. Not that I actually expect you to do that. You'll lap it
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It's wise to get the full legal citation and to personally verify, with the text of the bill, the claims made by your source.
Why wait for the legislation to be written? Perhaps it's a better idea to keep an eye [waroadusagecharge.org] on the research and public opinion manipulation that they do in advance.
Once they are ready to go, odds are that the actual bill will be tacked onto some "save the whales" legislation.
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the goal was to have records on who has what guns.
Well, duh!
If they didn't do that people could buy guns at gun shows then sell them to felons for a fat profit.
Would you rather they came round to your house after every crime to see if you still have all your guns and didn't sell them to anybody?
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Would you rather they came round to your house after every crime to see if you still have all your guns
Wouldn't do them much good. There is no requirement that I store my guns in my house.
Personally, I keep them all on my boat [bwallpapers.com].
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You could just buy the gun, then sell it off and say it was stolen.
What idiots (Score:3)
And by having it slowly increase, say monthly, it will not harm the economy, but will still force states, cities, counties, utilities, even businesses and home owners to CLEAN UP.
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And with that said, my guess is that cryptominers would be better working with nuclear power or just for when electricity supply is huge.
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No that was not serious.
Do you start to see how ridiculous that kind of picking and choosing of ok, productive vs not ok, wasteful energy-using actitvities by whatever political stripe of government is in power now is?
The government, if anything, should tax carbon emissio
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Re:What idiots (Score:4, Informative)
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Many states don't even tax essentials such as food, clothing, etc. so the notion that thes
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Look, there is a cost to everything. Dirty electricity is STILL dirty electricity no matter how you choose to ignore it or pretend that it is not.
It is not just the RICH or even middle class that makes heavy use of dirty electricity. It is ALL OF US.
By increasing by
Why a percent? (Score:2)
Why not tax CO2? (Re:Why a percent?) (Score:2)
Why not get rid of the bullshit federal regulations holding up electrricity from nuclear fission and hydro? Note that I specify getting rid of the bullshit regulations, not all regulations. We need regulations on energy, we don't need bullshit regulations that do nothing to add to safety or reliability. Get enough nuclear power plants and hydroelectric dams and we'd get low enough CO2 emissions from electricity that nobody will care about CO2 emissions from crypto-currency mining.
Part of the bullshit is
Stupid (Score:2)
Crypto mines already seek the cheapest electricity. Solar and wind are the cheapest in the U.S. So, the administration wants to tax green energy.
Explained (Score:2)
Explained: Electricity boards prioritize selling electricity to middle-men instead of (brick and mortar) factories.
Yes, a sales tax will fix that, or the government could tax the electricity board instead: Punish the behaviour causing the problem.
Crypto is racist! (Score:2)
> Crypto mining has "negative spillovers on the environment," the White House continued, and the pollution it generates "falls disproportionately on low-income neighborhoods and communities of color."
Next up on the fed's economic micromanagement agenda: Hair dryers, which also consume electricity, thereby incurring negative spillovers on the environment, which falls disproportionately on low-income neighborhoods and comm
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As if your race matters when you are poor. If you are poor, you'll starve just the same regardless of your race.
I'm all for the tax (Score:2)
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It should be way more that 30% The tax needs to make profitable mining impossible to send a clear message. don't waste power like this.
The funny thing about supply and demand economics is that it might just be impossible to put a tax high enough on anything to make it impossible to make a profit. I recall something about a bill that would attach the mandated minimum wage to some price inflation index and how doing this could drive inflation into going out of control eventually. If we measure the cost of items on the market as hours worked to but them then there's a close correlation between the two over long periods of time because that'
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If I were a betting person, I'd wager that 50% of all economic transactions and agreements will be using that stuff within, at the outside, 25 years.
That's my opinion, based on understanding the capabilities and properties of the tech.
Is proof-of-stake validation/consensus method of blockchain too energy-intensive and does it have reasonable alternatives? Yes. So if we properly carbon-tax dirty electricity in a gro
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Blockchain can prove that sort of thing.
Why not just rely on the database in the property title office of the local government?
Yeah, you could, but the blockchain version is global, standardized, and doesn't rely on the stability or honesty or capability of various jurisdictions maintaining records.
Or wha
miners are hashing calculators (Score:2, Insightful)
where does controlling how you spend the electricity you already paid for end?
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Huge Government Overreach (Score:2)
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ban beer (Score:2)
It's time to ban the refrigeration of beer because of the harm it causes the environment. Also, ban all electricity used to produce low quality tv shows.
Cancel Cold Beer! (Score:2)
Also, there needs to be a Netflix electricity tax for sure!
What I do with my computer is my business (Score:2)
Waive (Score:2)
If government really cared, they'd waive the tax if you use a renewable like geothermal or solar. Or hydro.
Speaking of hydro, it's a perfectly fine thing for democracy to decide tradeoffs over. Maybe it's time to move back to it.
This all grants government a noble role it may not deserve, but whatever.
Bad idea (Score:2)
And exactly how... (Score:2)
....do they plan to distinguish power expended for crypto mining from power used for grow lights??
Ronald Reagan (Score:2)
"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, REGULATE it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it" - Ronald Reagan (b. 1911)
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Bitcoin mining moved out of China.
Re:This sounds generally unenforceable (Score:5, Informative)
Yes, because it has been totally illegal [bbc.com] there for a bit more than 18 months.
Re: This sounds generally unenforceable (Score:2)
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There's so much misinformation in here, that I'm not sure if the poster was trying to be sarcastic.
China bad, mmmmkay?
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China dystopian hell state, mmmkay?
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China is a totalitarian regime engaging in active genocide. ANYONE who isn't anti-china is far far worse than a moron.
Re: If it moves, tax it (Score:5, Insightful)
Just put a tax on crypto transactions.
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It might even solve the debt crisis!
Re: If it moves, tax it (Score:4, Informative)
Just put a tax on <thing-you-do-not-like> transactions.
FTFY
They already do this - its called a "sin tax". source [taxfoundation.org] "Excise taxes can be employed as Pigouvian taxes, or sin taxes, to price in externalities. An externality, in economics terms, is the side effect or consequence of an activity that is not reflected in the cost of said activity. For instance, excise taxes may be employed to reduce consumption of cigarettes or sugar-sweetened beverages, to curb pollution, or to reduce traffic congestion."
Tax all internet connected devices (Score:2)
They're all mostly used for PRON! and increasingly for sexting and navigating to internet-mediated booty calls.
Don't ask how the government knows this, but they know.